Support NeoGAF

[Teknoman]

he says the black import of unintelligible English, opposition to education, work, and social norms have spread from the black community to the white underclass and this is the reason the riots spread from the black enclaves to the rest of the country.

Oh c'mon. Overseas facepalm at this.

 

[Dakota47]

Who is that Starkey dude? Some explanation from a Brit would be very much appreciated.

 

[Zzoram]

So he's basically blaming the blacks for spreading their evil poverty to whites?

 

[soundscream]

David Starkey...*sigh* I want to like him so much but I'm afraid he's wrong here. The way he condemns all of rap music in one fell swoop is pretty fucking ridiculous.

You could argue a point or two if he said Rap Culture, but he said Black Culture, which is ignorant.

 

[SmokyDave]

So he's basically blaming the blacks for spreading their evil poverty to whites?

As far as I can tell, he's blaming 'black culture' spreading to whites.

Edit: the video is linked on the BBC news page.

 

[MrHicks]

he says the black import of unintelligible English, opposition to education, work, and social norms have spread from the black community to the white underclass and this is the reason the riots spread from the black enclaves to the rest of the country.

Oh c'mon. Overseas facepalm at this.

its true that allot of low class black people think that being intelligent/finish school etc is "acting white"

the US has this too
"uuuugh whites act like that so i'm gonna act different or else i turn white too"

TARDS the lot of them

 

[Mikeside]

To be fair, certain types of white culture can affect your employment prospects if taken too far.

Yeah, but that doesn't really matter for London - you never see any cockney goths.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Who is that Starkey dude? Some explanation from a Brit would be very much appreciated.

Right wing academic, does history. Like those right wing people on American TV who are always talking about the constitution and the founding fathers except totally different.

 

[Dakota47]

Right wing academic, does history. Like those right wing people on American TV who are always talking about the constitution and the founding fathers except totally different.

Thanks.

 

[Teknoman]

its true that allot of low class black people think that being intelligent/finish school etc is "acting white"

the US has this too
"uuuugh whites act like that so i'm gonna act different or else i turn white too"

TARDS the lot of them

Yeah, had to deal with that in high school lol. How or why that viewpoint still exists, I have no idea...especially when even some of the most famous rappers speak using "proper english" when being interviewed/not rapping.

Then again, all races (ethnicities?) have some version of nickname to call someone who "acts white"...

 

[Meadows]

Who is that Starkey dude? Some explanation from a Brit would be very much appreciated.

A Historian/TV personality. Presents a lot of British history/art documentaries and is pretty good at it, he should probably just stick to talking about stuff in the past. He's a typical oxbridge old boy Conservative who knows nothing about the real world.

 

[MrHicks]

Yeah, had to deal with that in high school lol. How or why that viewpoint still exists, I have no idea...especially when even some of the most famous rappers speak using "proper english" when being interviewed/not rapping.

Then again, all races (ethnicities?) have some version of nickname to call someone who "acts white"...

i'm not against rap but it is true that allot of these (mainstream)rappers that teens idolize glorify gangculture and are degrading to women in their lyrics

these are not the idols that the black youth should have

famous black scientists like neil degrasse tyson etc and other respectable rolemodels should be what the black youth aspires to be

 

[Mecha_Infantry]

WOW, LISTENING TO THIS INTERVIEW.

WOW! JEEZ!

 

[dtrack]

its true that allot of low class black people think that being intelligent/finish school etc is "acting white"

the US has this too
"uuuugh whites act like that so i'm gonna act different or else i turn white too"

TARDS the lot of them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glOv4MIyNSE

 

[MrHicks]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glOv4MIyNSE

pretty much lol

 

[Meus Renaissance]

at Starkey, I enjoyed his documentaries

 

[Salazar]

at Starkey, I enjoyed his documentaries

I've been to see him speak a few times and he was magnificent. It is a shame.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

David Starkey has a lot of personal issues that he projects onto everyone else. That's just after watching Jamie Oliver's Dream School where he belitted all the students.

 

[Zenith]

at Starkey, I enjoyed his documentaries

I hear he's a dick in person.

 

[Furret]

So, other than using the term "black culture" rather than "rap culture" how is he wrong?

 

[Ashes]

So, other than using the term "black culture" rather than "rap culture" how is he wrong?

Well, he didn't mean rap culture, he meant black culture.

 

[soundscream]

So, other than using the term "black culture" rather than "rap culture" how is he wrong?

If you watched you would hear him blame Jamaican culture as well. He said poor whites have become blacks, cause were all wild out of control criminals, except those of us who act white.

 

[FreeMufasa]

i'm not against rap but it is true that allot of these (mainstream)rappers that teens idolize glorify gangculture and are degrading to women in their lyrics

these are not the idols that the black youth should have

famous black scientists like neil degrasse tyson etc and other respectable rolemodels should be what the black youth aspires to be

Rap hasn't been glorifying gang culture for a while now. These kids listen to stuff like Drake, J-Cole, Pitbull etc.

 

[Furret]

Well, he didn't mean rap culture, he meant black culture.

His point was that it was no longer a question of race or colour, but of different cultures.

The criminal rap-influenced one that would previously have been considered as solely black is now embraced by a much wider group of people to the point where it can no longer be considered as having anything specifically to do with black.

Just as his example of the well-educated erudite black person is part of a culture that can no longer be considered as "white".

I don't think he got his point across very well, in part because of the heckling by the other guest - but the basic point, that it is no longer a case of black vs. white but civilised vs. uncivilised, seem to me valid.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

His point was that it was no longer a question of race or colour, but of different cultures.

The criminal rap-influenced one that would previously have been considered as solely black is now embraced by a much wider group of people to the point where it can no longer be considered as having anything specifically to do with black.

This argument hinges on the assumption that rappers were the first people to write, sing, or do anything artistic or cultural related to crime.

 

[Psychotext]

Good job internet, http://keepaaroncutting.blogspot.com/ raised £35k and has now stopped collecting donations.

Can't help feeling it might have been an idea for them to continue given it was still notching up money at quite a rate (and there are a lot of people to help, obviously)... but still, quite awesome. \o/

 

[Furret]

This argument hinges on the assumption that rappers were the first people to write, sing, or do anything artistic or cultural related to crime.

No it doesn't. What does being first have to do with anything?

Everyone has marvelled at what a bizarre range of people have been involved in the riots - from the 11 year old chav to the millionaire's daughter.

It seems an impossible mix at first, but the second you consider that they are all embrassing the same cultural influences it makes perfect sense.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

No it doesn't. What does being first have to do with anything?

Everyone has marvelled at what a bizarre range of people have been involved in the riots - from the 11 year old chav to the millionaire's daughter.

It seems an impossible mix at first, but the second you consider that they are all embrassing the same cultural influences it makes perfect sense.

If he really is blaming rap and not "black" culture straight up, he's blaming it on a youth culture that embraces rebellion and so on and so forth. Guess what? Youth subcultures will always do that. It sounds like he's blaming the world for not having "proper" culture.

(also, how do you know that all of them are "embrassing" the same culture?)

 

[lopaz]

i'm not against rap but it is true that allot of these (mainstream)rappers that teens idolize glorify gangculture and are degrading to women in their lyrics

these are not the idols that the black youth should have

famous black scientists like neil degrasse tyson etc and other respectable rolemodels should be what the black youth aspires to be

Why can they only look up to black people?

 

[Furret]

He's blaming it on a youth culture that embraces rebellion and so on and so forth. Guess what? Youth subcultures will always do that. It sounds like he's blaming the world for not having "proper" culture.

(also, how do you know that all of them are "embrassing" the same culture?)

OK, good so you accept this isn't a race thing.

I don't know for a fact that they're embracing the same culture, but how many goths and classical music fans are you willing to bet were involved in the riots?

 

[soundscream]

No it doesn't. What does being first have to do with anything?

Everyone has marvelled at what a bizarre range of people have been involved in the riots - from the 11 year old chav to the millionaire's daughter.

It seems an impossible mix at first, but the second you consider that they are all embrassing the same cultural influences it makes perfect sense.

You would fit in during the 1950's when people were complaining that Elvis was using that black music and rousing white middle-class teenage girls while putting off their prudish parents.

 

[MrHicks]

Why can they only look up to black people?

didn't say that
that just the reality of it

very few black youth have a white person as a role model/hero
and if they are gonna have one i'd rather it be degrasse tyson then 50 cent

 

[SmokyDave]

You would fit in during the 1950's when people were complaining that Elvis was using that black music and rousing white middle-class teenage girls while putting off their prudish parents.

Was that the 50's that came just before the 60's and their miniskirts? The 60's that came before the free love 70's? The whole sexual revolution thing?

Elvis rocks.

 

[saelz8]

OK, good so you accept this isn't a race thing.

I don't know for a fact that they're embracing the same culture, but how many goths and classical music fans are you willing to bet were involved in the riots?

If you don't know for a fact, then why are you saying it? It's a pretty sweeping accusation.

You acknowledged the variety of individuals involved, so you glued your argument together with 'shared culture', down to a specific one at that.

 

[saelz8]

didn't say that
that just the reality of it

very few black youth have a white person as a role model/hero
and if they are gonna have one i'd rather it be degrasse tyson then 50 cent

Youths rarely have scientists as role models.

All youths. Let's be real.

 

[Furret]

If you don't know for a fact, then why are you saying it? It's a pretty sweeping accusation.

You acknowledged the variety of individuals involved, so you glued your argument together with 'shared culture', down to a specific one at that.

What a terrible post.

I was responding to a discussion about a sweeping accusation from Starkey. That's what we're talking about.

If it's not a shared culture then what does connect all these people? Since we know for a fact it's not poverty (many had well paid jobs and/or were middle class) or an empathy with Mark Duggan?

 

[MrHicks]

Youths rarely have scientists as role models.

All youths. Let's be real.

no argument there

 

[Xun]

My god that interview with David Starkey.

Jesus.

I will agree that it saddens me how illiterate people have become, but that has nothing to do with race.

 

[Bleepey]

i'm not against rap but it is true that allot of these (mainstream)rappers that teens idolize glorify gangculture and are degrading to women in their lyrics

these are not the idols that the black youth should have

famous black scientists like neil degrasse tyson etc and other respectable rolemodels should be what the black youth aspires to be

The thing is i know some guys who went to medical school and came top in their class that would say other black people were acting white. Ths ironic thing is if shit ever went down in the medical field that guy that "acts white" would be the first one to help them. I did not realise this till reflecting a while back but i think it's in someways due to overcompensating. They may be smart enough to realise education is important but not bright enough to realise the impact of what they are saying. If you are reluctant to admit you are from Enfield and claim to be from Tottenham, then you are just insecure in your own " blackness" and you feel the need to compensate in some way. Whether it's through how they speak and in someways how they act.

 

[The Incarnation]

i'm not against rap but it is true that allot of these (mainstream)rappers that teens idolize glorify gangculture and are degrading to women in their lyrics

these are not the idols that the black youth should have

famous black scientists like neil degrasse tyson etc and other respectable rolemodels should be what the black youth aspires to be

Seen plenty of white people that like porn also.

 

[The Incarnation]

Why can they only look up to black people?

We're all narrow minded bigots you know who can only respect people who look like us.

 

[Ashes]

What a terrible post.

I was responding to a discussion about a sweeping accusation from Starkey. That's what we're talking about.

If it's not a shared culture then what does connect all these people? Since we know for a fact it's not poverty (many had well paid jobs and/or were middle class) or an empathy with Mark Duggan?

What is the argument for your sweeping generalisation? Why do all the rioters have to be 'connected' and put under the same umbrella?

The cultural deficit theory is in my opinion amongst the poorer explanations presented thus far. And I'm about as convinced that a White collar Worker looted because he listens to dr dre, as I am that a young black person looted because he played gta.

The correlations aren't reasonable in my opinion.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Will British Film Rise Like A Phoenix From The Sony Warehouse Fire?

What was I to do with 1,400 DVD’s of RABBIT ON THE MOON a British/ Mexican co-production that were only selling 4-5 copies per year? I asked that question to my sales force only last week. The problem was resolved in a devastating and unexpected way when on Monday rioters in Enfield torched the Sony DADC warehouse.

I am sure part of the rioters motivation was that Sony is was a giant corporation who they believed ‘deserved it’. What they did not know is that every UK independent film and DVD distributor used Sony to warehouse and ship their stock, around 60 companies. Coupled with this were almost 200 Indie record labels who also stored their CD’s in Enfield.

http://www.chrisjonesblog.com/2011/08/will-british-film-rise-like-a-phoenix-from-the-sony-warehouse-fire.html

 

[Furret]

What is the argument for your sweeping generalisation? Why do all the rioters have to be 'connected' and put under the same umbrella?

The cultural deficit theory is in my opinion amongst the poorer explanations presented thus far. And I'm about as convinced that a White collar Worker looted because he listens to dr dre, as I am that a young black person looted because he played gta.

The correlations aren't reasonable in my opinion.

It's not my argument, it's Starkey's. I was merely discussing it.

I find it difficult to believe that a form of music - or rather the wider culture and celebrity that surrounds it- that glorifies violence and criminality, and exalts personal wealth and misogyny, could fail to be a negative influence.

Video games are not real, rap stars and their money are.

Also, I note that many liberal commentators are as quick to shoot down suggestions that conflict with their pre-convcived notions but I don't say any theories being advanced by them as to why the riots happened.

 

[maniac-kun]

Will British Film Rise Like A Phoenix From The Sony Warehouse Fire?



http://www.chrisjonesblog.com/2011/08/will-british-film-rise-like-a-phoenix-from-the-sony-warehouse-fire.html

Time to start using digital distribution.

 

[soundscream]

It's not my argument, it's Starkey's. I was merely discussing it.

I find it difficult to believe that a form of music - or rather the wider culture and celebrity that surrounds it- that glorifies violence and criminality, and exalts personal wealth and misogyny, could fail to be a negative influence.

Video games are not real, rap stars and their money are.

Also, I note that many liberal commentators are as quick to shoot down suggestions that conflict with their pre-convcived notions but I don't say any theories being advanced by them as to why the riots happened.

Why stop at music

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Time to start using digital distribution.

Probably get more from insurance than they would have from sales................... maybe.

 

[Furret]

Why stop at music

I don't know what you mean by this.

Are you able to communicate in words as well as pictures?

 

[soundscream]

I don't know what you mean by this.

Are you able to communicate in words as well as pictures?

You said

I find it difficult to believe that a form of music - or rather the wider culture and celebrity that surrounds it- that glorifies violence and criminality, and exalts personal wealth and misogyny, could fail to be a negative influence.

I responded with a picture from the film good fellas

Henry Hill is a small time gangster, who takes part in a robbery with Jimmy Conway and Tommy De Vito, two other gangsters who have set their sights a bit higher. His two partners kill off everyone else involved in the robbery, and slowly start to climb up through the hierarchy of the Mob. Henry, however, is badly affected by his partners success, but will he stoop low enough to bring about the downfall of Jimmy and Tommy?

The point being your argument is weak because you could say films are just as responsible for any violence that occurred. Or you could even use Scarface (a movie admired by many rappers) as an example of the glorification of the criminal lifestyle.

The point being you cant lay the cause for the rioting on 1 issue.

But still if you watch the video, he doesn't just say rap culture he mentions black culture on multiple occasions, and Jamaican culture as a polluting factor that led to the whites rioting. Its a moronic argument for many reasons, but foremost because black culture isn't defined as rap music, and to state so shows an ignorance on the subject.

 

[Furret]

You said



I responded with a picture from the film good fellas



The point being your argument is weak because you could say films are just as responsible for any violence that occurred. Or you could even use Scarface (a movie admired by many rappers) as an example of the glorification of the criminal lifestyle.

The point being you cant lay the cause for the rioting on 1 issue.

But still if you watch the video, he doesn't just say rap culture he mentions black culture on multiple occasions, and Jamaican culture as a polluting factor that led to the whites rioting. Its a moronic argument for many reasons, but foremost because black culture isn't defined as rap music, and to state so shows an ignorance on the subject.

I see, well you might have just said that. In that case I agree: I find the glorification of criminality in any form abhorrent. I have never been able to sit through the whole of Goodfellas for that reason (which is why I didn't recognise the image) or things like The Sopronas.

I am not defending Starkey, I am trying to expand on one of the subjects he raised. Trying to back track to solely discuss him is not helpful at this point.