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[Dambrosi]

Any sane and workable system would have to allow for this sort of thing, and have some flexibility built in. And making it a 100% living essentials set-up would be over the top, obviously. But moving some of the payment in that direction wouldn't be a bad idea, surely?

You're still taking away people's engagement with the economy, and therefore greater society, by removing liquid income. Not to mention the loss of liquidity from the economy that would result from these changes, which alone might make them unworkable in these austere times. Tell me - just how much does unemployed people (not myself, since I don't drink or smoke - both disgusting addictions - but certainly others) spending their dole on cigs and booze contribute to the local economy? It's probably much more than you think.

Oh, and who's supposed to pay for these vouchers, anyway? Whether the unemployed get their benefits in the form of cash, vouchers or both, it's still the taxpayer who carries the cost. So, is this supposed to reduce the cost to the taxpayer by removing money from the equation? If so, then what are these vouchers supposed to buy, exactly? How are shops to be compensated for the supposed value of these vouchers? With more vouchers? Tax breaks might be a good idea, but how much, and wouldn't that increase the deficit?

Not to mention the logistical nightmare that introducing such a scheme would entail - who gets them, how many do they get, and how much food/clothing/whatever would each voucher actually buy? Would that "value" increase with inflation? How would you pay for energy costs with these vouchers? More to the point - if these vouchers are indeed given a "value", what essentially differentiates them from "real money"? How would you prevent a black market forming around these vouchers, given that you can't stop people giving them to others? An ID scheme? Pfft, easily corrupted, especially if there's enough money in it to make it worthwhile.

What you're asking for is a huge increase in fraud and petty crime, all for the fatuous satisfaction of "sticking it to the chavs". I'd rather not have that, but thanks anyway.

Did you not hear how, in the last 3 months, the unemployment rate grew by 38,000? It's only going to get worse. Do you really want to let them eat cake?

SmokyDave - of course I have, don't be insulting. I've volunteered myself for several employment training schemes over the years, but they're all very much of a muchness so they weren't successful. But I'm not going to give up. I'm going on the Work Programme next week, in fact. I'm hoping for good results, but not holding my breath. Wish me luck.

 

[J Tourettes]

Yup, these liberal West Hampsteady types don't really understand. Nine years on Woodberry Down Estate would give these people some perspective.

My ex grew up on Woodberry Down, her parents still live there. She's done ok for herself and would never dream of looting but I imagine that's probably to do with her Irish parents and their work ethic.

West Hampstead is only a stone s throw from Alexandra Estate, a great example of Brutalism but I certainly wouldn't want to live there so not all West Hampsteady types are liberals.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'm shocked and appalled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Davies

And yes - he is all of the above.

Oh, he's one of them there footballists. That explains why I'd never heard of him. I wonder if he fancies a job as a body-double?

 

[Meadows]

I'm all for tough sentences on ASBOs to stamp out disorder but prison either needs to be a place of deterrence or a place of rehabilitation and at the moment it's in some shite middle ground where we're just keeping them away from the public for an amount of time.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Did you not hear how, in the last 3 months, the unemployment rate grew by 38,000? It's only going to get worse. Do you really want to let them eat cake?

Please don't misinterpret the data. ILO unemployment went up because of increased participation. Absolute employment increased in the last three months by 25k, so jobs are still being created, but the number of people coming back into the labour market is higher than that. The 37.1k increase in claimant count is down a new test for incapacity benefit which is much more stringent that before so people who really are unable to work get better support but people gaming the system are put onto JSA which has causes a spike in the claimant count.

 

[Dambrosi]

I'm all for tough sentences on ASBOs to stamp out disorder but prison either needs to be a place of deterrence or a place of rehabilitation and at the moment it's in some shite middle ground where we're just keeping them away from the public for an amount of time.

I do agree with this. Just warehousing future criminals at the taxpayer's expense does nobody any good. This is part of the reason why I'm opposed to overly harsh custodial sentences like those the Facebook Two got.

Hey, Britain England - Deterrence or Rehabilitation: pick one.

edit: Ah, thank you zomg. Still doesn't look good, though. Maybe the government should explain that, rather than playing politics with our judicial system?

 

[Trokil]

Hey, Britain England - Deterrence or Rehabilitation: pick one.

It's all about politics, people expect Law & Order and they will get it now.

 

[Dambrosi]

It's all about politics, people expect Law & Order and they will get it now.

Even if it kills them...right?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

My ex grew up on Woodberry Down, her parents still live there. She's done ok for herself and would never dream of looting but I imagine that's probably to do with her Irish parents and their work ethic.

West Hampstead is only a stone s throw from Alexandra Estate, a great example of Brutalism but I certainly wouldn't want to live there so not all West Hampsteady types are liberals.

I heard they were refurbishing parts or all of the estate, I hope you ex gf's parents don't have to move out temporarily.

West Hampstead is a nice area and is isolated by two major roads, the A5 and A41, a lot of London is like that though. Where I live is isolated by the A406 and A10, on either side of them is Edmonton and Ponders End, neither of which are particularly great...

 

[iapetus]

Did you not hear how, in the last 3 months, the unemployment rate grew by 38,000? It's only going to get worse. Do you really want to let them eat cake?

Hell, no. Their vouchers will only cover them for rich tea biscuits. Cake will be reserved for those who aren't living off the state.

 

[Dambrosi]

Hell, no. Their vouchers will only cover them for rich tea biscuits. Cake will be reserved for those who aren't living off the state.

Bububut...Rich Tea biscuits are only for the Rich!

 

[nib95]

Rehabilitation, or should I say instead, dealing with root causes, more community based efforts etc are ultimately the main way forward. Fierce retribution (though I'm not saying tere shouldn't be strong sentencing) generally just leads to more anger and hatred.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

edit: Ah, thank you zomg. Still doesn't look good, though. Maybe the government should explain that, rather than playing politics with our judicial system?

It's not really up to the government to explain it, it's up to media organisations. The problem is that 'higher unemployment rate caused by increased participation' is not as sensationalist as '37k increase in claimant count'. You can't draw conclusions from it either, the current headlines are all about how the UK recovery has been derailed etc... A 25k increase in absolute employment doesn't support that conclusion, again that is much less sensationalist.

Bububut...Rich Tea biscuits are only for the Rich!

Fine, digestives!

 

[Dambrosi]

Fine, digestives!

Chocolate digestives and you have a deal. They don't even have to be the good ones.

Oh, and tea, sugar and milk. An Englishman can't do without the essentials!

To address your more serious point, it may be the media's job to report the news, but why haven't the government even sent a spokesman to the 24 hour TV news channels to explain things from their side? For all their many sins, that's the very least New Labour would have done!

 

[J Tourettes]

I heard they were refurbishing parts or all of the estate, I hope you ex gf's parents don't have to move out temporarily.

West Hampstead is a nice area and is isolated by two major roads, the A5 and A41, a lot of London is like that though. Where I live is isolated by the A406 and A10, on either side of them is Edmonton and Ponders End, neither of which are particularly great...

Ah, Edmonton. Lovely place colloquially known as Shanktown.

Personally I do feel that some of the sentences have been overly harsh but if it's a line being drawn in the sand and they're not going to fuck about with light touch community services or ASBO's anymore at least that should hopefully act as a deterrent.

How the fuck they'll fix the underlying problems is beyond me. Various approaches have been tried but nothing has worked thus far. I found myself actually agreeing with Ed Milliband the other day when he basically said that the banking, hacking, expenses and looting scandals were all part of the me first, instant gratification, I'm alright so fuck everybody else culture. (Paraphrasing, obviously!)

Not wanting to sound like Cameron but how do you fix that shit? Is it a problem in society as a whole or is it limited to groups of wankers in those scandals?

The riots had been coming for a while over the past 10-15 years I've noticed people being scared of fucking kids (apart from MLP gaf, wa-hey!) crossing roads to avoid them, scared to chastise them for doing wrong etc etc.

Not sure where I was going here, rambling.

 

[kitch9]

I do agree with this. Just warehousing future criminals at the taxpayer's expense does nobody any good. This is part of the reason why I'm opposed to overly harsh custodial sentences like those the Facebook Two got.

Hey, Britain England - Deterrence or Rehabilitation: pick one.

edit: Ah, thank you zomg. Still doesn't look good, though. Maybe the government should explain that, rather than playing politics with our judicial system?

There are numerous qualifications you can go for in UK prisons, which are classed as a days work in there so you get paid for attending them.

I have a friend serving 4 years, and hes picked up Plumbing, Electrical, and General Building qualifications. He currently working on joinery, then moving on to plastering.

In return he gets money, his own cell, a Playstation and plenty of time in the gym.

 

[kitch9]

If he really meant it, would he have deleted the page when he woke up the next day apologizing for making it?

What, after the coppers infiltrated it and told everybody not to bother? The guys arse just fell out after seeing everybody just thought he was a prick and the rozzers were onto him.

 

[Traumnovelle]

Feeling really bad about this guy ;_;

 

[SmokyDave]

Feeling really bad about this guy ;_;

I perhaps would if I hadn't read this bit...

Williamson told how he had been arrested, saying: "One of my mates had said: 'Are you sure you were not involved in the riots? The photo of the arsonist looks a bit like you.'

"We had a laugh and a joke about it. Two police officers were stood in front of Phones 4 You, and I said: 'I'll prove it's not me,' and walked in front of the coppers. When I came out of the shop they grabbed me and then three more approached and asked if I had been involved in the riots. I said no.

Twat. Why wouldn't you walk up to the police like a normal grown-up and say "Excuse me lads, that picture looks a lot like me. Can I come forward so you can rule me out?".

It's harsh that he ended up inside but a little common sense and he might've avoided it.

 

[travisbickle]

I perhaps would if I hadn't read this bit...


Twat. Why wouldn't you walk up to the police like a normal grown-up and say "Excuse me lads, that picture looks a lot like me. Can I come forward so you can rule me out?".

It's harsh that he ended up inside but a little common sense and he might've avoided it.

Did you read the article?

When I came out of the shop they grabbed me and then three more approached and asked if I had been involved in the riots. I said no.

"The next thing I was arrested in the middle of the street on suspicion of arson. I couldn't believe it. It was surreal. I was taken into police custody and it was all very distressing. I was interviewed at Pendleton police station and gave an account of where I was that day. Then I was interviewed again and they were trying to pin the offence on me and get me to admit it. I wasn't having any of it because it was not me."

He was falsely imprisoned because the system had been changed to speed up the process and all the police and judges were on a moral charge to "send out a message", it had nothing to do with how he interacted with the police the guy even responded "no" when asked if he was involved! I don't know how you believe it would be any different ?

 

[JonathanEx]

I dunno, "we overheard someone say you kinda look a bit like someone" is pretty strong evidence.

 

[SmokyDave]

Did you read the article?

No, I quoted it verbatim without reading it.

He was falsely imprisoned because the system had been changed to speed up the process and all the police and judges were on a moral charge to "send out a message", it had nothing to do with how he interacted with the police the guy even responded "no" when asked if he was involved! I don't know how you believe it would be any different ?

Obviously the police were looking for a quick arrest and fucked up, I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm saying he made things worse by 'daring them' to catch him. Why stroll past making it obvious that you want to be seen, after being told you looked like the arsonist, and then give it the wah-wah when the inevitable happens?

 

[Zenith]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ell-says-youth-cleared-over-fire-2341661.html

Not only was he wrongly arrested but vigilantes burned down his flat while he was in prison.

 

[travisbickle]

Obviously the police were looking for a quick arrest and fucked up, I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm saying he made things worse by 'daring them' to catch him. Why stroll past making it obvious that you want to be seen, after being told you looked like the arsonist, and then give it the wah-wah when the inevitable happens?

He was falsely convicted and imprisoned for setting fire to a retail store in Manchester. They had cctv footage of him on the day of the riots wearing different clothes, that didn't matter, he gave an account of where he was for the day and evening, that didn't matter, one of the police officers suspected someone else of the arson, that didn't matter....

If at any point during the trial and conviction the police also added "on the day of the arrest he strolled past us like he was 'daring us to catch him'" as part of their prosecution then I have less faith in the judicial system than I have ever had before.

He was sent to PRISON for looking like the arsonist, and you're blaming him for not coming forward!! In reality he should have hidden in his house because the police and judicial system are an incompetent joke.

 

[nib95]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ell-says-youth-cleared-over-fire-2341661.html

Not only was he wrongly arrested but vigilantes burned down his flat while he was in prison.

Really sad to read...especially this. People just have no idea..

Mr Williamson has spent 17 years of his life living in care, and had moved into his home in Broughton, Salford, with the help of the children's charity Barnado's.

 

[SmokyDave]

He was falsely convicted....

We appear to be talking past each other here. I'm not arguing that his handling by the police was anything other than shocking, I'm saying the way he ended up in the custody of the police was retarded and probably didn't help.

 

[nib95]

He was falsely convicted and imprisoned for setting fire to a retail store in Manchester. They had cctv footage of him on the day of the riots wearing different clothes, that didn't matter, he gave an account of where he was for the day and evening, that didn't matter, one of the police officers suspected someone else of the arson, that didn't matter....

If at any point during the trial and conviction the police also added "on the day of the arrest he strolled past us like he was 'daring us to catch him'" as part of their prosecution then I have less faith in the judicial system than I have ever had before.

He was sent to PRISON for looking like the arsonist, and you're blaming him for not coming forward!! In reality he should have hidden in his house because the police and judicial system are an incompetent joke.

Makes me wonder how many others have been falsely imprisoned or sentenced...hmmm...
Knee jerk reactions FTL.

 

[travisbickle]

We appear to be talking past each other here. I'm not arguing that his handling by the police was anything other than shocking, I'm saying the way he ended up in the custody of the police was retarded and probably didn't help.

The police put him into custody because he looked like the arsonist! If he had walked up to them and said "I am not the arsonist you are looking for" they would have put him in custody for arson because he looked like the arsonist.

 

[SmokyDave]

The police put him into custody because he looked like the arsonist! If he had walked up to them and said "I am not the arsonist you are looking for" they would have put him in custody for arson because he looked like the arsonist.

I don't think this would have gone the same way if he'd 'handed himself in', so to speak. If there was a high profile crime committed in my area and I fit the mugshot, I wouldn't stroll up and down in front of officers to see if they twigged*. Mind you, I don't have two previous convictions either.

*read the original post I quoted.

 

[travisbickle]

I don't think this would have gone the same way if he'd 'handed himself in', so to speak. If there was a high profile crime committed in my area and I fit the mugshot, I wouldn't stroll up and down in front of officers to see if they twigged*. Mind you, I don't have two previous convictions either.

*read the original post I quoted.

But you would be going into custody no matter if you handed yourself in at the station or were picked up by the police doing a jaunty walk in front of them. Then the previous convictions come into play.

 

[Kentpaul]

can we make this song the official song of the riots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLfEU5lelUM&feature=relmfu

Professor green - Jungle

the song was playing threw my mind watching the riot footage

 

[SmokyDave]

But you would be going into custody no matter if you handed yourself in at the station or were picked up by the police doing a jaunty walk in front of them. Then the previous convictions come into play.

That's pure speculation though. I'm inclined to agree with you because of the magnitude of incompetence on display, but it's still just speculation.

 

[travisbickle]

can we make this song the official song of the riots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLfEU5lelUM&feature=relmfu

Professor green - Jungle

the song was playing threw my mind watching the riot footage

Is this young person's lingo because you have written it a number of times?

 

[Kentpaul]

Is this young person's lingo because you have written it a number of times?

My spelling is just terrible.

 

[Vagabundo]

I don't think this would have gone the same way if he'd 'handed himself in', so to speak. If there was a high profile crime committed in my area and I fit the mugshot, I wouldn't stroll up and down in front of officers to see if they twigged*. Mind you, I don't have two previous convictions either.

*read the original post I quoted.

Then again you're not a stupid 18 year old who's spend his life in care and foster home. Yeah it was stupid, but the cops where way too eager, but it didn't stop there; armchair judges setting up Facebook pages, vigilantes, prison officers. The system should be trying to calm the situation down now, but they are turning a blind eye to this stuff. If rioters are being jailed for Facebook posting, then so should the vigilantes.

 

[Dambrosi]

Feh. I knew something like this would happen.

Can we all just calm the fuck down and watch Gaddafi get run the fuck out of Libya now?

 

[jorma]

Then again you're not a stupid 18 year old who's spend his life in care and foster home. Yeah it was stupid, but the cops where way too eager, but it didn't stop there; armchair judges setting up Facebook pages, vigilantes, prison officers. The system should be trying to calm the situation down now, but they are turning a blind eye to this stuff. If rioters are being jailed for Facebook posting, then so should the vigilantes.

But it's very important to point out that the kid is a twat, apparantly. You don't need to feel sympathy for twats, regardless of how much bullshit they have to endure.

On another note - personally, if somone asked me for advice "that mugshot looks like me, should i turn myself in and say it's not me?", i would have adviced him "omg no, how stupid are you, that will only get you in harms way" and by the looks of it, my advice is sound.

 

[Ripclawe]

Funeral today for Duggan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sparked-nationwide-street-riots.html#comments

But another side to Mark Duggan’s life was evident too. It was there in the one-armed salute that men and women gave as the white, horse-drawn hearse passed along the streets from Duggan’s family home in Tottenham.

And it was there outside New Testament Church of God in Wood Green, North London, where the service was held, as friends spoke on the street of Duggan as ‘one of our fallen soldiers’.

Outside the church, where those mourners who could not fit inside stood on the pavement, the air was thick with the smell of cannabis. Dark glasses were the order of the day for men, short skirts for women.

For Duggan, 29, was also known as ‘Starrish Mark’. He was an ‘elder’, or senior member, of The Star Gang, who strut the streets of Tottenham where such gangs trade in violence, intimidation and drugs.

Yesterday, among the floral tributes spelling out ‘dad’ and ‘son’, there was also a star-shaped wreath.

During the 90-minute service Duggan’s cousin Donna Martin began an obituary by repeating his nickname ‘Starrish’ three times, eliciting applause from the congregation.

She told of his upbringing on the notorious Broadwater Farm Estate in Tottenham and how he left aged 13 to live in Manchester with an aunt. There was no mention of the fact that Duggan was the nephew of notorious crime boss the late Desmond ‘Dessie’ Noonan who boasted his gang had ‘more guns than the police’ and whose feared family are ‘major players’ in Manchester’s underworld.

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

For Duggan, 29, was also known as ‘Starrish Mark’. He was an ‘elder’, or senior member, of The Star Gang, who strut the streets of Tottenham where such gangs trade in violence, intimidation and drugs.

More like Five Star.

 

[Gui_PT]

When I saw this bump I thought people were at it again.

 

[Übermatik]

When I saw this bump I thought people were at it again.

When I saw you're bump I thought people were at it again.

 

[J Tourettes]

From the Guardian, many more details on their site.

Widespread anger and frustration at the way police engage with communities was a significant cause of the summer riots in every major city where disorder took place, the biggest study into their cause has found.

Hundreds of interviews with people who took part in the disturbances which spread across England in August revealed deep-seated and sometimes visceral antipathy towards police.

In a unique collaboration, the Guardian and London School of Economics (LSE) interviewed 270 people who rioted in London, Birmingham, Liverpool, Nottingham, Manchester and Salford.

The project collected more than 1.3m words of first-person accounts from rioters, giving an unprecedented insight into what drove people to participate in England's most serious bout of civil unrest in a generation. Rioters revealed that a complex mix of grievances brought them on to the streets but analysts appointed by the LSE identified distrust and antipathy toward police as a key driving force.

 

[nib95]

From the Guardian, many more details on their site.

Obviously anyone with actual sense not resorting to knee jerk anger could have guessed such things would be part of the larger issues at hand along with the cause. Despite Government claims otherwise.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I'm not sure I trust first-person accounts of actual rioters... I mean think about it, you're expecting them to circumvent their ego and give an honest answer to "why did you do it?"

- I distrust the police innit, and I don't like them, and they killed that guy innit
or
- I is gettin my taxes back innit

even to the simplest of rioters, sounds better than

- everyone else was doing it, it was a laugh and I thought I might be able to get an iPhone

 

[nib95]

I'm not sure I trust first-person accounts of actual rioters... I mean think about it, you're expecting them to circumvent their ego and give an honest answer to "why did you do it?"

- I distrust the police innit, and I don't like them, and they killed that guy innit
or
- I is gettin my taxes back innit

even to the simplest of rioters, sounds better than

- everyone else was doing it, it was a laugh and I thought I might be able to get an iPhone

I think the last option is sort of bred or justified from a mix of the first two as well. An element of resentment and antagonistic disregard for the system which they feel has let them down hence breeding the, yea, why not attitude. But sure, lets not research and ask the people involved in these things why they did it and just make it up ourselves. Great idea.

 

[Meadows]

"the government does nuthin' for us blud"

*goes to the job center to get benefits and buys some new trainers*

 

[Veidt]

lol
so true.

although, i always thought it was 'nuffin'

 

[British Monsoon]

If there's antipathy towards the police force, they have no one to blame but themselves. Every year we see stories of the police acting badly, using excessive force, targeting innocents, not wearing their identification numbers, etc and the fact is there's a definite feel that the higher ups in the force do all they can to protect their own and even encourage such behaviour behind closed doors, as nothing ever seems to come of these situations and nothing ever seems to change. The police force are seen as a faceless, all-powerful group who themselves are far too often above the law, and this is only reinforced by stories we see on the news.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I think the last option is sort of bred or justified from a mix of the first two as well. An element of resentment and antagonistic disregard for the system which they feel has let them down hence breeding the, yea, why not attitude. But sure, lets not research and ask the people involved in these things why they did it and just make it up ourselves. Great idea.

Struggling adults and people in aggrieved communities kicking off, I can understand. When it spread, it was just little hoodie-rats doing it for kicks, and it doesn't matter to me why they say they joined in. There was and still is no excuse for a lot of them. In my opinion of course.

I would be interested in their opinion if I thought it would be instructive or constructive, but I think as an exercise its flawed, the ego will introduce its own bias, they will deflect blame and be dishonest about their motivations... I have no basis on which to trust this study.

You might well be right that wider factors play into the antipathy, I'm sure that's true. But I also feel confident, after seeing what I saw over those few days and speaking to people who actually got involved, that they were doing it because they could. Because it was a way to entertain themselves, smash things up, get free stuff, it involved the thrill of a confrontation / stand off with the police and the occasional chase... they didn't have the discipline instilled in them to not take part and the strong arm of the law wasn't there with enough conviction to stop them.

Ultimately, my view is that previous generations had it much worse and didn't act out that way, and as soon as it spread beyond London it was obvious that this was a cultural problem more than a way to express any kind of ill-feeling towards the police.

 

[Number45]

If there's antipathy towards the police force, they have no one to blame but themselves. Every year we see stories of the police acting badly, using excessive force, targeting innocents, not wearing their identification numbers, etc and the fact is there's a definite feel that the higher ups in the force do all they can to protect their own and even encourage such behaviour behind closed doors, as nothing ever seems to come of these situations and nothing ever seems to change. The police force are seen as a faceless, all-powerful group who themselves are far too often above the law, and this is only reinforced by stories we see on the news.

They also do a lot of good, but a massive majority of those stories never find their way to the national press (or any press, for that matter). I'm not agreeing/disagreeing with the suggestion, but basing an opinion of anything purely on what is reported upon isn't going to give you the whole picture.