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[Logan Cano]

It's so tempting to say that the world would be better off without islamic countries...but I won't. Islam is about the most fucked up thing damaging the world today, or rather, the extremist position of way too many of its followers.

 

[RiZ III]

Lots of people are big talkers and enjoy flaming, but only some of them make stupid comments like Rev. Wright's.
And only some of those who make stupid comments make comments that incite violence.
And only some of those who try to incite violence succeed.

Lynching. Look it up.

It isn't hard to incite hundreds of thousands of people to riot? Are you joking?

To pick Islam's greatest competitor, when was the last time that priests or bishops or pastors succeeded in inciting hundreds of thousands of Christians to riot over something they felt was an insult to their faith?

Inciting violence is not a religious phenomenon. Look at Rwanda, a whole nation was incited to slaughter its own people. If you think Islam or religion are the only groups which have incited violence, then you are far more ignorant that I thought.

 

[speculawyer]

If you ask me, the policy Western-European nations should start with is fucking enforcing laws. There are often Imams preaching violence, most, if not all Western European countries have laws that allow for jailing them. And at the very least, it's grounds for deporting them. And that s just one example of many. No one is exempt from the law. Not Muslims, not Christians, not Atheïsts, no one.

They can do this in some European countries, but it is difficult to do so in the USA because of the First Amendment. And I don't think that should change. However, you can prosecute extreme cases in the USA and I believe they will do so . . . but fortunately, most Mosques in the USA are less dogmatic and extremists than in other countries.

An example of a good prosecution is the infamous blind shiek Omar Abdel-Rahman that has been imprisoned for inciting the first WTC bombing attack.

How was that possible by that 'soft on terror' Clinton?

 

[Phoenix]

That is the most stereotypical ignorant article I've read in a while. Its worst that some of the stuff I actually see on GAF. The author makes some wild sweeping generalizations and holds them up as facts to drive his conclusion.

Awful worthless waste of time. 1/2 star article, don't waste your time.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

Uh, don't a lot of Muslims practice polygamy, etc. as listed in the article? Whether these things are sustained by Islam may be in question; whether they happen at all is not.

how many muslims do you know that practice polygamy?

 

[saelz8]

I'll apologize for it right now - 80% of the American public hates that war. But why does war = cartoons?

Your apology won't mean much while we're still there. That is the core of the conflict here, sacred values within the context of trans-regional meddling, war and percieved injustice.

Yes, politics influences these decisions above much else. Western powers invading muslim countries and violating their sovereignty, or allying themselves with inter-country hated regimes. It's the main catalyst to the negative behavior that people complain about, a self fulfilling prophecy. It is a cycle.

Muslims are on edge, likely mostly due to global politics related to themselves as a perceived group. This influences reactionary behavior in the face of cultural criticism. It's insecurity, but not always entirely unwarranted given history in the rear-view. This seems to be mans reaction from the bottom up, or in headlock. Any step by the outgroup towards mass dehuminization will be seen as a step towards possible existential threat.

It is politics, dressed in religion and culture. (Even for the west). Moral values, moral outrage.

 

[Azih]

Uh, don't a lot of Muslims practice polygamy, etc.

polygamy is rare it's not very common at all. And the whole forced marriage, wife beating stuff is just pure and plain smear.

The 'extremist' interview is extremely suspect in every way and the drive by libel of CAIR has no basis at all.

 

[Dyno]

There are a lot of salient points to the article.

- criticism improves things. If something cannot be commented or critiqued then it stagnates.

- Religious laws have no bearing on non-belivers, nor do they have any bearing on the laws of the land.

- There is no right that protects one from being offended or even insulted. Nor is violence in response an acceptable action.

 

[PhlegmMaster]

Uh, don't a lot of Muslims practice polygamy, etc. as listed in the article? Whether these things are sustained by Islam may be in question; whether they happen at all is not.

Polygamy (in favor of men, not in favor of women), underage marriage, and wife beating are all supported by the Qur'an and/or Hadith, either by direct injunction or by example (i.e. if the Prophet did it and Allah didn't object, it must be okay).

 

[Azih]

Also repeating the bullshit accusation of honor killings which has been debunked plenty of times on GAF. Nothing on the authour but why oh why do Gaffers just lap it again and again when it is repeated.

 

[Kabouter]

Uh, don't a lot of Muslims practice polygamy, etc. as listed in the article? Whether these things are sustained by Islam may be in question; whether they happen at all is not.

Condemning a religion for what it's people do aside from it would be wrong though. I'm sure you could find quite a few Christian thieves, is Christianity a religion of thieves? No. What is the case though is that some of these people who practice these medieval 'customs' use Islam to justify their acts, and rarely if ever do you see other Muslims publicly denouncing them for it.

They can do this in some European countries, but it is difficult to do so in the USA because of the First Amendment. And I don't think that should change. However, you can prosecute extreme cases in the USA and I believe they will do so . . . but fortunately, most Mosques in the USA are less dogmatic and extremists than in other countries.

Yeah, it's not really a problem in the US. In the countries where it is there are perfectly good laws available for dealing with it. The governments just have to find the balls to actually enforce their own laws, which have often served them very well for many many years.

 

[Macam]

Yeah . . . something like that.

(9/11 image)

That's a more accurate depiction of this thread so far than having anything in particular to do with the OP.

 

[PhlegmMaster]

Inciting violence is not a religious phenomenon.

Except for Islam. That's the point.

If you think Islam or religion are the only groups which have incited violence, then you are far more ignorant that I thought.

What makes you think I think that Islam is the only ideology that incites violence, or that this has any relevance to my point or the article's?

 

[Azih]

Polygamy (in favor of men, not in favor of women), underage marriage, and wife beating are all supported by the Qur'an and/or Hadith, either by direct injunction or by example (i.e. if the Prophet did it and Allah didn't object, it must be okay).

Extremist interpretations of the Quran and Hadith have nothign to do with this statement of Sam's

Muslims commonly practice polygamy, forced-marriage (often between underage girls and older men), and wife-beating

None of this is common by any stretch of the imagination. Hell this is like saying SLAVERY is commonly practiced by Muslims just because the Quran allows it.

 

[speculawyer]

And oh god

Muslims commonly practice polygamy, forced-marriage (often between underage girls and older men), and wife-beating

What is this shit? I'm not even glancing at this article anymore.

I do not believe you or even most Muslims engage in such practices, but I think you are being very naive or over-protective if you just dismiss such comments.
Polygamy: That's just fact, you can't argue with that one.
Forced-marriage: Certainly not most marriages but definitely some. Usually in less advanced places like Afghnistan or in tribal areas. OT GAF had a story the other week about some 8 year old getting a divorce. WTF?
wife-beating: Again, a very small minority I'd assume. But with the very weak legal protections women are given, I am certain this happens far more in the Islamic world than it does in the west. Women's testimony is not worth the same as a man according the Quran. And women are not supposed to talk to strange men, so how can the report such problems?

And as Sam points out, feel free to laugh and criticize western religions that have the same problems. It is a two-way street. But don't be surprised when claims of hypocrisy are thrown back.

Everyone has issues . . . Atheists are endlessly tarred with the horrific actis of Stalin and Pol Pot. Free & open discussion is good for everyone so we can all clean up our acts.

 

[speculawyer]

When is the western world going to apologize for invading Iraq?

I'll apologize right now too.

I'm very sorry for the war. And I feel extra guilty since I didn't stand up and do anything to try to stop it. That will forever haunt me. I never supported it, but I saw that it was going to happen and rationalized it in my own mind with the horrific behavior of Saddam (Which was indeed horrible). But I really should have stood up did something to try to stop it. But I didn't. So I personally apologize.

 

[Azih]

I do not believe you or even most Muslims engage in such practices

But Sam STATES that it is common. Which is my problem with the article.

 

[RiZ III]

Except for Islam. That's the point.

So violence towards other religious groups or sects has never happened in Christianity, Hinduism, or Judaism? Read up on a little history or even the Old Testament.

What makes you think I think that Islam is the only ideology that incites violence

Your posting history perhaps. I mean seeing a thread by you casting Islam in a bad light, gee that was a real surprise.

 

[castle007]

I find the western view on polygamy very interesting and the view doesn't make sense to me.

"OMG Islam permits polygamy!!! That is messed up" and then they act as if 99% of arabs and muslims practice it. Polygamy is rarely practiced and when it is, the husband has to make sure that he is capable of supporting his wives both physically and financially.

What is hilarious is that westerners blast polygamy. Yet, polygamy fixes a very common problem in the western world. Adultery. Polygamy gives women more rights that are not available to them when they are practicing adultery. Would you rather have man cheating on his wife with another woman and then dumping that woman after he has a child with her, leaving her single and she only gets child support if it is proven that the he is the father?? Or would you rather get married to that woman and support her legally not having to hide your relationship from your other wife??

 

[Chairman Yang]

Can polygyny really be that rare when Muslim countries (and Muslim communities within non-Muslim countries, such as India) explicitly allow it? Based on the scant stats I can find online, it isn't. I wouldn't call something practiced by millions and millions of people worldwide "rare", Azih.

 

[Azih]

Forced-marriage: Certainly not most marriages but definitely some. Usually in less advanced places like Afghnistan or in tribal areas.

EMPHASIS ON THE BOLDED. Must of the Islamic world is Third World. Take a look at the kind of horrific shit that happens in Christian Africa and Latin America. The common thread isn't the freaking religion, it's the uneducated POVERTY.

 

[saelz8]

Can polyandry really be that rare when Muslim countries (and Muslim communities within non-Muslim countries, such as India) explicitly allow it? Based on the scant stats I can find online, it isn't. I wouldn't call something practiced by millions and millions of people worldwide "rare", Azih.

Polyandry is rare, in history as well.

 

[RiZ III]

Can polyandry really be that rare when Muslim countries (and Muslim communities within non-Muslim countries, such as India) explicitly allow it? Based on the scant stats I can find online, it isn't. I wouldn't call something practiced by millions and millions of people worldwide "rare", Azih.

Millions out of how many billions?

 

[saelz8]

I'll apologize right now too.

I'm very sorry for the war. And I feel extra guilty since I didn't stand up and do anything to try to stop it. That will forever haunt me. I never supported it, but I saw that it was going to happen and rationalized it in my own mind with the horrific behavior of Saddam (Which was indeed horrible). But I really should have stood up did something to try to stop it. But I didn't. So I personally apologize.

Who are you apologizing to, speculawyer?

Also, I see the confusion above. There is difference between Polyandry and Polygamy. The former is women having multiple husbands, the latter is men having multiple wives. The latter has been practiced in the majority of civilizations in human history (More than monogamy), the former has been practiced by a minority of civilizations in recorded human history.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Condemning a religion for what it's people do aside from it would be wrong though. I'm sure you could find quite a few Christian thieves, is Christianity a religion of thieves? No. What is the case though is that some of these people who practice these medieval 'customs' use Islam to justify their acts, and rarely if ever do you see other Muslims publicly denouncing them for it.

If an ideology is used to justify evil acts--and actually works towards that end, as it often does in the Muslim world--wouldn't you say that's a problem with the ideology? That's why I'm not particularly interested in whether a particular Islamic interpretation actually supports/opposes any particular behaviour. I care what the religion's effects in the real world actually are. In that regard, Islam successfully justifies evil laws and, for that reason, is a bad ideology.

 

[SUPREME1]

ISLAM = I SLAM



Think about it.


:\

 

[speculawyer]

Because America didn't do any raping of its own amirite?

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/0301/1f676d2e7a02b10390d5.jpeg

America has done many awful things . . . a good list preceeds Reverend Wright's infamous "God Damn America" quote.

“And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent, she failed. She put them on reservations.

“When it came to putting her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in interment prison camps.

“When it came to putting the citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters. Put them on auction blocks. Put them in cotton fields. Put them in inferior schools. Put them in substandard housing. Put them scientific experiments. Put them in the lower paying jobs. Put them outside the equal protection of the law. Kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education, and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness.

“The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three strike law and then wants us to sing God Bless America. Naw, naw, naw. Not God Bless America. God Damn America! That’s in the Bible. For killing innocent people. God Damn America for treating us citizens as less than human. God Damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is Supreme."

Genocide of native Americans, internment of Japanese, slavery for Africans . . . sufficient reasons to say "God Damn America" in the heat of passion, IMHO. It is sad to see it taken out of context and used by the GOP in various ads in the not-so-proud tradition of their infamous 'Southern Strategy'. :-/


http://essence.typepad.com/news/2008/03/the-full-story.html

 

[Kabouter]

EMPHASIS ON THE BOLDED. Must of the Islamic world is Third World. Take a look at the kind of horrific shit that happens in Christian Africa and Latin America. The common thread isn't the freaking religion, it's the uneducated POVERTY.

Problem are the immigrants from those countries that are coming to Europe who want to continue those practices. And governments are for some reason scared shitless of acting against these barbaric practices, for fear of antagonizing Islam, which if your portrayal of it is accurate, shouldn't mind at all. Things like female circumcision and honour killings should be fought with a zero tolerance policy.

If an ideology is used to justify evil acts--and actually works towards that end, as it often does in the Muslim world--wouldn't you say that's a problem with the ideology? That's why I'm not particularly interested in whether a particular Islamic interpretation actually supports/opposes any particular behaviour. I care what the religion's effects in the real world actually are. In that regard, Islam successfully justifies evil laws and, for that reason, is a bad ideology.

While I agree the facts should be looked at, you still can't judge all of Islam for it. What you can judge them for is the fact that the moderate Muslims seem completely unwilling to denounce what are according to them extremists publicly.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Millions out of how many billions?

I don't know. If you can find better stats (or stats on things like child marriages, beatings, etc.), I'd be happy to look at them. In Senegal, it's 47%, which is pretty damn high.

 

[Count Dookkake]

ISLAM = I SLAM



Think about it.


:\

Is it just me or does it stink in here?

 

[shintoki]

To sum it up just like most other places...95% of the people just want to live their life out in a fair standing. The other 5% deserves to be taken out back and shot like a dog because all they want to do is **** it up for the rest to fill their own greed.

But its pretty much true. In Europe, the Muslims are their Mexicans for a reference. Its the major source of immigration. Its a clusterfuck of problems. Its also most unfair to the ones who are there to better their life, but now get grouped in with this BS.

 

[lastendconductor]

"It's a long article, but I refuse to bold the important parts because they're all important. I recommend you read it at the huff....."....... zzzzz

 

[speculawyer]

Who are you apologizing to, speculawyer?

Anyone and everyone hurt by the war. Iraqis, Muslims, American soldiers, american tax payers . . . even god if you believe in one.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Polyandry is rare, in history as well.

Oops, I meant polygyny.

 

[castle007]

Azih, you are acting as if polygamy is evil. You are a muslim and you should know that it is not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

If polygamy helps the families and enables the husband to support his wives and kids better then I don't see a problem with it as long as he treats them well. this is especially important in agricultural societies as the article mentions.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Anyone and everyone hurt by the war. Iraqis, Muslims, American soldiers, american tax payers . . . even god if you believe in one.

Thanks.

 

[GSG Flash]

If an ideology is used to justify evil acts--and actually works towards that end, as it often does in the Muslim world--wouldn't you say that's a problem with the ideology? That's why I'm not particularly interested in whether a particular Islamic interpretation actually supports/opposes any particular behaviour. I care what the religion's effects in the real world actually are. In that regard, Islam successfully justifies evil laws and, for that reason, is a bad ideology.

Looks like there's a problem with every ideology then. Both Christianity and Judaism are used as inspiration for a lot of evil acts committed in this world and if you were to read their respective religious texts and interpret it how you want it to be interpreted, they would be condoning those acts as well.

 

[speculawyer]

That is the most stereotypical ignorant article I've read in a while. Its worst that some of the stuff I actually see on GAF. The author makes some wild sweeping generalizations and holds them up as facts to drive his conclusion.

Examples?

 

[Phoenix]

EMPHASIS ON THE BOLDED. Must of the Islamic world is Third World. Take a look at the kind of horrific shit that happens in Christian Africa and Latin America. The common thread isn't the freaking religion, it's the uneducated POVERTY.

FTW. This is why you can't go to the religion to solve the problem or use the military to solve the problem. When people are living in abject poverty these things happen. New Orleans was or at least should have been a clear indicator to people in America about what happens in these sorts of situations, but I guess too many white girls have been kidnapped in the interim and we've forgotten all the lessons we should have been learning from that event.

When people don't have and the government does nothing they will take things into their own hands and do what they feel is necessary. If a charismatic leader comes along and gives them things that they want/need in return for some very basic things - these people will follow them and do what is bringing them food on their plate. Hell if you look at post World War Germany you will see the same exact fucking thing! A situation that was unregulated and allowed to remain shit and bred the circumstance that had people ignore their moral compass in favor of someone who would deliver them from their situation.

 

[Azih]

Can polygamy really be that rare when Muslim countries (and Muslim communities within non-Muslim countries, such as India) explicitly allow it

Yes. Just becuase something is allowed doesn't mean it is regularly practiced. The fact that it's extremely common in Senegal has more to do with Senegal than Islam, I mean hell your own article treats Senegal as an extreme outlier, wouldn't far more muslim countries have similar rates if it iwas a Muslim thing? (please also see honor killings).

 

[Count Dookkake]

Looks like there's a problem with every ideology then. Both Christianity and Judaism are used as inspiration for a lot of evil acts committed in this world and if you were to read their respective religious texts and interpret it how you want it to be interpreted, they would be condoning those acts as well.

Well, yeah.

 

[gkryhewy]

Polygamy gives women more rights that are not available to them when they are practicing adultery. Would you rather have man cheating on his wife with another woman and then dumping that woman after he has a child with her, leaving her single and she only gets child support if it is proven that the he is the father??

You're really not helping your case with this loony post. In the western world, said woman is as likely to be educated as her husband, and can get a well-paying job to support her children, and/or find another husband.

Frankly, I'm just floored by the odd logic you're employing. What's to stop your hypothetical muslim polygamist from leaving one or both of his wives, or cheating on them with yet a third or fourth woman?

Muslims are on edge, likely mostly due to global politics related to themselves as a perceived group. This influences reactionary behavior in the face of cultural criticism. It's insecurity, but not always entirely unwarranted given history in the rear-view.

VERY well put, thanks.

 

[BocoDragon]

Anyone and everyone hurt by the war. Iraqis, Muslims, American soldiers, american tax payers . . . even god if you believe in one.

Well speculawyer I did protest the war... it was the largest anti-war protest in history. Guess what... nothing changed :lol I suppose you could have run into the Oval Office and changed the minds of the neo-cons somehow, though!:lol

 

[RiZ III]

I don't know. If you can find better stats (or stats on things like child marriages, beatings, etc.), I'd be happy to look at them. In Senegal, it's 47%, which is pretty damn high.

Senegal is not the Muslim world. It is a small fraction.

 

[Phoenix]

Examples?

There is an uncanny irony here that many have noticed. The position of the Muslim community in the face of all provocations seems to be: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we will kill you. Of course, the truth is often more nuanced, but this is about as nuanced as it ever gets: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we peaceful Muslims cannot be held responsible for what our less peaceful brothers and sisters do. When they burn your embassies or kidnap and

That's the first one. We can deal with that one before moving to others.

 

[Mandark]

The actual anti-Muslim sentiments are probably the most destructive thing here, but what actually bugs me the most is the self-congratulatory tone.

Screw being PC! I'm unafraid to tell it like it is and speak truth to power! If you think I'm biased, just check out my Allah jerseys.

 

[Karakand]

Allah can talk to people in the suburbs!

 

[gkryhewy]

If you think I'm biased, just check out my Allah jerseys.

:lol :lol :lol That's definitely going to be a new meme.

 

[speculawyer]

Azih, you are acting as if polygamy is evil. You are a muslim and you should know that it is not. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

If polygamy helps the families and enables the husband to support his wives and kids better then I don't see a problem with it as long as he treats them well. this is especially important in agricultural societies as the article mentions.

Some people think it is. I have a tough time with the issue since I'm a strong defender of freedom and people's rights. I think gay marriage should be legal and it is kinda hard to defend that while opposing a long-tolerated practice such as polygamy.

But I think it has a big problem in that it screws up the demographics. You can end up with a lot of unhappy men with no prospects. And that is not good for society. Unhappy young men with no prospects is an invitation for crime & social unrest. And the FLDS sects are known for dumping extra young men and booting them out of their group.

Perhaps this problem could be lessen by allowing equal-opportunity polgamy where women could have more than one husband. But I doubt it would ever equal out.

 

[Azih]

Examples?

What. Again?

Muslims commonly practice polygamy, forced-marriage (often between underage girls and older men), and wife-beating

Hell Phoenix has a better one.