Spotless Mind
Member
It was the episode that sold me on the show as well, but it was all downhill from there.Willy105 said:
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Willy105 said:
I completely agree. That episode was just great, Terry O'Quinn is simply amazing as John Locke and perfect as Man in Black.
Gah
My favorite episodes have to be, The Constant(how can you not cry at the desmond/penny phone call), The Variable, Walkabout, Season 3 finale(game changer), season 4 finale, pilot, and the series finale
I wasn't holding my breath.evil solrac v3.0 said:
That has nothing to do with what I just said.
If the Man in Black needs to destroy the island in order to escape, there's no "plugging the island back in". I.e. he wouldn't get his powers back. I.e. an escaped Man in Black would just be Terry O'Quinn, minus the resume. I.e. chill out, Widmore, it's not that bad, really.
And again, if destroying the island triggers the end the world, Widmore shouldn't be concerned as to whether or not the Man in Black will kill his daughter once he's free (that's still "if the Man in Black needs to destroy the island in order to escape", i.e. according to Willy105's theory, naturally).
Will you actually read the above, this time around? Not holding my breath for that one either.
Did I alter what you said so radically it was worth mentioning at all, there? If so, please explain, really. I'm interested.Willy105 said:
If they didn't know that about the Man in Black's powers, what were they trying to accomplish? What kind of "last failsafe" was Desmond? What was up with than plan of theirs?
In fact, it looks like the outsiders did know more about the Man in Black (his powers, anyway) than the Man in Black himself, in the end: dude didn't expect to become vulnerable.
Did it sound like Widmore didn't have enough information to be confident as to what lowering Desmond in that cave would do? He seemed concerned about the guy's resistance to electromagnetism or whatever, but apart from that?
I didn't list reasons as to why their plan may not work, actually.
Not really. It's called "not turning one's brain off".
I shouldn't have to: I thought the plot made sense?
Erigu said:
It's interesting how you put so much importance to this, calling it my theory, as if we were talking about quantum mechanics and evolutionary biology. I've been trying to tell you all this time that it simply is not as complex as you make it out to be, but you keep trying to blow it up, as if the show is actually telling us when the end of the world is coming.
Interestingly enough, you were the one that led to me to believing that theory, since you tried to nix out all other theories.
It's not altering, it's putting importance on something that was not important. Like I said before, basic plot points are made overcomplicated because you continue to doubt that the writers don't know what they are doing.
Isn't it obvious? Even if they didn't know what they were up against, they were still trying to do it. Like I said in my analogy in a previous post, the operation isn't going to stop simply because they weren't 100% sure the villain was there. He could have walked out a back door that they didn't know it was there. Will that stop them from going in and prevent the virus from infecting LA?
You do realize that even if you don't have all the information, you could still think you do? People are not omnipotent. You could very easily believe something to be true, even if it's not, just as I and anybody else. It's incredible this is the plot point you are arguing about. For a show that revolves about characters not knowing what is going on, you seem to dislike that people don't know what is going on.
You had a complete conversation with yourself.
It obviously didn't to you.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Willy105 said:
Yeah, I'd have to agree 100% on this. I didn't start watching LOST until the middle of season 5, where I caught the episode where they go back in time to the Dharma camp n the 70's and meet up with Sawyer and crew. It was at that point I decided to start watching the show from the very beginning to see if I wanted to bother watching the whole thing. So I watched the two hour pilot and liked it, I was intrigued. I watched the third ep and still liked it but wasn't sure about "catching up" yet due to the huge time investment of watching 5 seasons of a TV show.
But then I saw Walkabout.
That episode is the one that made me decide, with no hesitation or pause, to watch whole damn thing. I loved how the whole episode built up to the end, with the music climaxing, and when it's finally revealed that Locke was in a wheelchair but could miraculously walk after the crash, well that was just a brilliant example of TV making at it's best. The story of John Locke hooked me in. It's still one of my favorite eps of all six seasons.
"Theory" really isn't that big of a word, and it's pretty adequate, here.Willy105 said:
I'm just saying your simple explanation doesn't work. And explaining why.
The show would actually make even less sense if the Man in Black needed to destroy the island in order to escape.
It doesn't matter what the Man in Black was trying to do exactly?
No, the show is absurd because the writers didn't know what they were doing and didn't care.
It seems to me that you only think it makes sense because you're not paying attention. You insist that it's "really simple!", and when I remind you of a bunch of inconvenient details from the show that you forgot or ignored, you make it sound like it's my fault and I'm just creating issues out of thin air. Dude, I didn't write those episodes. It's not my fault the show keeps contradicting itself. It's not my fault your "simple explanations" don't cut it.
So when Widmore said that Jacob told him everything he needed to know, when they called Desmond a "fail-safe", when they tested his resistance to Magical Electromagnetism, when they discussed their "schedule", it was all bollocks, actually? They had no idea what was going on and were just throwing random shit at the wall and hoping it would stick?
Mixed signals.
And is there any reason Jacob wouldn't tell Widmore everything he knows about the Man in Black? Like, what exactly keeps the guy trapped, for example? Considering the fate of the world is at stake?
But I guess we're back to that thing about Jacob not telling Jack and the others about Desmond's role in the whole affair, back at that fire camp. Why not? Dude, end of the world. Just spill the beans.
The only reason I'd see is an out-of-universe one: the writers wanted Jack to figure that out by himself in the finale. Because Jack is The Hero. Too bad that meant having him go "I'm sure Jacob had a good reason for bringing Desmond here! I choose to believe he has a plan! Never mind the fact he didn't tell us anything about that last night!"
'Cause that's how this "thinking man's show" resolved its final conflict: good guy and bad guy both decided to do the exact same thing for equally stupid reasons, and the plot's own stupidity favored the good guy in the end. Hooray.
Yup, that really sounds like something the writers had been thinking about for years. Not something that was poorly improvised on the fly.
I have no idea what that was all about.
Whether or not Widmore is right about all that is beside the point, here: he thinks he is, and does it make sense for him to worry about what the Man in Black would do upon escaping, considering the plan he and Jacob set in motion with Desmond?
And I take it you can't explain why the Man in Black didn't get rid of Widmore right away... Not important either?
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
I think this new Lost tribute is really well made.
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5lyY1NvDI&feature=player_embedded
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV5lyY1NvDI&feature=player_embedded
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:
ThLunarian
Member
M_Night said:
It was decent, but it would have been better if it could have had the narrator speaking over music from Lost instead of what it had.
I'm not going to read anything in this thread until I'm done with the series, but my wife and I are going through Lost for the very first time. Both of us are blind on the series, neither one of us had friends who were into it and neither of us really paid much attention to it while it was on the air. It's been an interesting experience so far to say the least. We just finished Season 3 and have started the first couple of episodes of Season 4 now.
The one thing that I find rather interesting so far about the show, is that I absolutely hate the main 'two' characters Jack and Kate with a fucking passion. Every time a Jack or Kate 'flashback' (or flash forward episode now it seems) pops up I end up rolling my eyes. I don't want to know more about this character, I want his character to die and never be heard from again. As for Kate, she's not much of a problem when she is/was with Sawyer, but any time she gets around Jack (or we have to deal with her flashbacks), I find her to be just as annoying as he is.
Also, I think we've seen Jack cry more in the first 3 and a half seasons of lost than any other character in the show. If there's one thing that his character has, it's definitely a solid continuing portrayal of whiny-ness.
However, with that said... Despite this fact, the rest of the cast and the characters more than makes up for the limitations I feel are inherent in Jack and Kate's character portrayals. We are fairly big fans of Locke and Sayid... And Charlie (which really sucked this last season... even though just as soon as Desmond's visions came up there was no way around it happening). And the first couple of episodes of Season 4 have been interesting, but I somewhat wonder if we've reached the pinnacle of the series and we are about to be taking a ride straight down now.
As for our theories, we already have a few going around, but no matter what we come up with, it seems like we are missing something or that the explanations are just way too simple. For the first part of Season 1, my wife was convinced the answer was Dinosaurs.
Anyways, I'll probably hop back in this thread when I'm done with the series. Shouldn't be too much longer at the rate we are going. I'm surprised we haven't got burned out yet, but if there is one thing that Lost really has going for it, it is a pretty compelling visual narrative that's told in a style that really isn't too common place on TV (ie, looking at a bigger picture for episodes and story-telling rather than looking at individual episodes for hooks to get in new viewers). I can't imagine how it would've been waiting week after week (and then months for the breaks) for the show to come on. Must've been painful.
The one thing that I find rather interesting so far about the show, is that I absolutely hate the main 'two' characters Jack and Kate with a fucking passion. Every time a Jack or Kate 'flashback' (or flash forward episode now it seems) pops up I end up rolling my eyes. I don't want to know more about this character, I want his character to die and never be heard from again. As for Kate, she's not much of a problem when she is/was with Sawyer, but any time she gets around Jack (or we have to deal with her flashbacks), I find her to be just as annoying as he is.
Also, I think we've seen Jack cry more in the first 3 and a half seasons of lost than any other character in the show. If there's one thing that his character has, it's definitely a solid continuing portrayal of whiny-ness.
However, with that said... Despite this fact, the rest of the cast and the characters more than makes up for the limitations I feel are inherent in Jack and Kate's character portrayals. We are fairly big fans of Locke and Sayid... And Charlie (which really sucked this last season... even though just as soon as Desmond's visions came up there was no way around it happening). And the first couple of episodes of Season 4 have been interesting, but I somewhat wonder if we've reached the pinnacle of the series and we are about to be taking a ride straight down now.
As for our theories, we already have a few going around, but no matter what we come up with, it seems like we are missing something or that the explanations are just way too simple. For the first part of Season 1, my wife was convinced the answer was Dinosaurs.
Anyways, I'll probably hop back in this thread when I'm done with the series. Shouldn't be too much longer at the rate we are going. I'm surprised we haven't got burned out yet, but if there is one thing that Lost really has going for it, it is a pretty compelling visual narrative that's told in a style that really isn't too common place on TV (ie, looking at a bigger picture for episodes and story-telling rather than looking at individual episodes for hooks to get in new viewers). I can't imagine how it would've been waiting week after week (and then months for the breaks) for the show to come on. Must've been painful.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
lmfao @ the jack hate ^ Should be interesting what he thinks after the show is over.
RyanDG said:I'm not going to read anything in this thread until I'm done with the series, but my wife and I are going through Lost for the very first time. Both of us are blind on the series, neither one of us had friends who were into it and neither of us really paid much attention to it while it was on the air. It's been an interesting experience so far to say the least. We just finished Season 3 and have started the first couple of episodes of Season 4 now.
The one thing that I find rather interesting so far about the show, is that I absolutely hate the main 'two' characters Jack and Kate with a fucking passion. Every time a Jack or Kate 'flashback' (or flash forward episode now it seems) pops up I end up rolling my eyes. I don't want to know more about this character, I want his character to die and never be heard from again. As for Kate, she's not much of a problem when she is/was with Sawyer, but any time she gets around Jack (or we have to deal with her flashbacks), I find her to be just as annoying as he is.
Also, I think we've seen Jack cry more in the first 3 and a half seasons of lost than any other character in the show. If there's one thing that his character has, it's definitely a solid continuing portrayal of whiny-ness.
However, with that said... Despite this fact, the rest of the cast and the characters more than makes up for the limitations I feel are inherent in Jack and Kate's character portrayals. We are fairly big fans of Locke and Sayid... And Charlie (which really sucked this last season... even though just as soon as Desmond's visions came up there was no way around it happening). And the first couple of episodes of Season 4 have been interesting, but I somewhat wonder if we've reached the pinnacle of the series and we are about to be taking a ride straight down now.
As for our theories, we already have a few going around, but no matter what we come up with, it seems like we are missing something or that the explanations are just way too simple. For the first part of Season 1, my wife was convinced the answer was Dinosaurs.
Anyways, I'll probably hop back in this thread when I'm done with the series. Shouldn't be too much longer at the rate we are going. I'm surprised we haven't got burned out yet, but if there is one thing that Lost really has going for it, it is a pretty compelling visual narrative that's told in a style that really isn't too common place on TV (ie, looking at a bigger picture for episodes and story-telling rather than looking at individual episodes for hooks to get in new viewers). I can't imagine how it would've been waiting week after week (and then months for the breaks) for the show to come on. Must've been painful.
I look forward to your reactions.
*facepalm*evil solrac v3.0 said:
You've got to be...
*deep breath*
Okay, I'll just pretend I don't know you. I'll just pretend this isn't hopeless and try again.
Would plugging the island back give the guy his powers back? Yeah, I guess so.
But you see, it doesn't matter, here, as I was talking about what would happen if the Man in Black were to destroy the island. That is to say, if the Man in Black were to unplug the island and leave it unplugged.
Following me so far? Yes?
Willy105 argues that the Man in Black was trapped by the island and needed to destroy it in order to escape. If that's true (I personally think that makes (even) less sense than the alternative, i.e. that destroying the island was just a luxury: what he really needed to do was to arrange for Jacob and his candidates to die) then it means the Man in Black would have to unplug the island, and leave it unplugged until it's gone. It means he would have to lose his powers in order to escape.
All right? Do we agree about that? It's not that complicated, really.
Catalix
And on the sixth day the LORD David Bowie created man and woman in His image. And he saw that it was good. On the seventh day the LORD created videogames so that He might take the bloody day off for once.
Ok, now that I've had a year to marinate on the whole shebang, I think I'm ready to attempt something I've previously considered impossible for me: an all-encompassing ranking list! We've ranked the show's seasons countless times before, but in honor of The End's 1-year anniversary - and for all the passion this show has inspired among its fanbase over the passed 7 years - I wanna go all out, one last time.
Before, my personal favorite characters and episodes would constantly fluctuate on a daily basis, I could never make up my mind on anything. I was too close to the action and cared too much. But now, time really has put things into perspective. So for fun and posterity, here goes:
...
CHARACTERS
-------------------
1. Jack Shephard - 'cause it's always been about Jack. The stubborn fool with a god complex. A broken man in search of purpose. I felt for him every time he stumbled, and was elated when he finally found his true calling. Kudos to Fox as well, I feel he's under appreciated sometimes, but that's understandable when you also got folks like.....
2. John Locke - The Boss himself, LOST would be nothing without Locke/Terry O'Quinn. He simply embodies the show's sense of adventure, mystery and tragedy all in one package. Even though he ultimately turned out to be the "wise mentor" figure of Jack's "Hero's Journey," it's actually a really poingant twist that I feel adds tons more weight to the character and his legacy.
3. Desmond Hume - There's not a single bad thing I can say about the time traveling Scotsman. Not one!
4. James "Sawyer" Ford - from con-man to hero, Sawyer was always a welcome presence. Comic relief with a heap of pathos, it delivered a winning combination. Watching him gradually learn how to care for other people besides himself was a real treat. Josh Holloway upped his game along the way as well.
5. Benjamin Linus - The pattern I see with my Top 5 is that they all had wholly satisfying character arcs. The characters were established well in the beginning, and the writers displayed great follow-through by making their journeys meaningful overall. Ben was no different. He was the well-rounded and intriguing villain that the series desperately needed.
6. Juliet Burke - Very admirable and sympathetic character. Love this Woman! Definitely proved her worth from the very beginning. Her nonsensical flip flops in The Incident may have left me cold, but man did she have a good run.
7. Jin-Soo Kwon- the writers dropped the ball on these next three. They were early favorites of mine, but after S4 they essentially became non-characters. Jin easily had the best arc, but poor Sayid was given the shaft. Sun had so much potential going into S5, where did it all go...? Waste of a great actress. They were once solidly developed staples of the series though.
8. Sayid Jarrah - the noble-but-deadly romantic really stood out among the cast early on.
9. Sun-Hwa Kwon - finding out how manipulative she can sometimes be was a neat twist.
10.Hugo "Hurley" Reyes - I think I liked this dude. A very agreeable conclusion to his story.
11.Mr. Eko
12.Daniel Farraday
13.Charlie Pace
14.Claire Littleton - Hey, I'm just trying to be objective here! I'm mostly ranking characters in terms of satisfying development and likabilty. She's low on the list, but still my ride-or-die chick <3
15.Chritstian Shephard - The Father/Son issues between him and Jack were executed perfectly. Gets me every time.
16.Franklin J. goddam LAPIDUS - Everything we needed to know about Frank was right there in his introductory episode. Think about that! We literally learned nothing new about this guy's backstory after that first episode! And yet, he persists as a bonafide Island Legend.
17.Miles Straume - too bad he didn't get the spotlight he deserved. I'm with Birdie, Some Like It Hoth is undervalued.
18.Kate Austen - Annoyingly self-righteous busybody throughout most of the series, but last season and a half turned me around. I was rooting for you, kid.
19.Ana Lucia Cortez - my heart just aches for this girl. So abrasive, so lonely, and she just can't help herself. Don't worry Ana, I feel you ;_;
20.Martin Keamy - The show's most badass, charismatic, irredeemable villain. The actor sold that shit hard.
EPISODES (admittedly, still a tough category for me)
-------------
1. Through the Looking Glass
2. The Constant
3. The Brig
4. Exodus
5. Live Together, Die Alone
6. There's No Place Like Home
7. One of Us
8. The Pilot
9. Flashes Before Your Eyes
10.Tricia Tanaka is Dead
MUSIC
---------------
1. Moving On
2. There's No Place Like Home
3. Life and Death
4. Parting Words
5. Ocean's Apart
6. Locke'd Out Again
7. The Incident
8. Hollywood and Vines (aka Holy Fucking Shit)
9. Tangled Web
10.La Fleur
And for old times' sake:
1>3=4>5>>6>2
1 - A+
2 - C-
3 - A-
4 - A-
5 - B
6 - C
Before, my personal favorite characters and episodes would constantly fluctuate on a daily basis, I could never make up my mind on anything. I was too close to the action and cared too much. But now, time really has put things into perspective. So for fun and posterity, here goes:
...
CHARACTERS
-------------------
1. Jack Shephard - 'cause it's always been about Jack. The stubborn fool with a god complex. A broken man in search of purpose. I felt for him every time he stumbled, and was elated when he finally found his true calling. Kudos to Fox as well, I feel he's under appreciated sometimes, but that's understandable when you also got folks like.....
2. John Locke - The Boss himself, LOST would be nothing without Locke/Terry O'Quinn. He simply embodies the show's sense of adventure, mystery and tragedy all in one package. Even though he ultimately turned out to be the "wise mentor" figure of Jack's "Hero's Journey," it's actually a really poingant twist that I feel adds tons more weight to the character and his legacy.
3. Desmond Hume - There's not a single bad thing I can say about the time traveling Scotsman. Not one!
4. James "Sawyer" Ford - from con-man to hero, Sawyer was always a welcome presence. Comic relief with a heap of pathos, it delivered a winning combination. Watching him gradually learn how to care for other people besides himself was a real treat. Josh Holloway upped his game along the way as well.
5. Benjamin Linus - The pattern I see with my Top 5 is that they all had wholly satisfying character arcs. The characters were established well in the beginning, and the writers displayed great follow-through by making their journeys meaningful overall. Ben was no different. He was the well-rounded and intriguing villain that the series desperately needed.
6. Juliet Burke - Very admirable and sympathetic character. Love this Woman! Definitely proved her worth from the very beginning. Her nonsensical flip flops in The Incident may have left me cold, but man did she have a good run.
7. Jin-Soo Kwon- the writers dropped the ball on these next three. They were early favorites of mine, but after S4 they essentially became non-characters. Jin easily had the best arc, but poor Sayid was given the shaft. Sun had so much potential going into S5, where did it all go...? Waste of a great actress. They were once solidly developed staples of the series though.
8. Sayid Jarrah - the noble-but-deadly romantic really stood out among the cast early on.
9. Sun-Hwa Kwon - finding out how manipulative she can sometimes be was a neat twist.
10.Hugo "Hurley" Reyes - I think I liked this dude. A very agreeable conclusion to his story.
11.Mr. Eko
12.Daniel Farraday
13.Charlie Pace
14.Claire Littleton - Hey, I'm just trying to be objective here! I'm mostly ranking characters in terms of satisfying development and likabilty. She's low on the list, but still my ride-or-die chick <3
15.Chritstian Shephard - The Father/Son issues between him and Jack were executed perfectly. Gets me every time.
16.Franklin J. goddam LAPIDUS - Everything we needed to know about Frank was right there in his introductory episode. Think about that! We literally learned nothing new about this guy's backstory after that first episode! And yet, he persists as a bonafide Island Legend.
17.Miles Straume - too bad he didn't get the spotlight he deserved. I'm with Birdie, Some Like It Hoth is undervalued.
18.Kate Austen - Annoyingly self-righteous busybody throughout most of the series, but last season and a half turned me around. I was rooting for you, kid.
19.Ana Lucia Cortez - my heart just aches for this girl. So abrasive, so lonely, and she just can't help herself. Don't worry Ana, I feel you ;_;
20.Martin Keamy - The show's most badass, charismatic, irredeemable villain. The actor sold that shit hard.
EPISODES (admittedly, still a tough category for me)
-------------
1. Through the Looking Glass
2. The Constant
3. The Brig
4. Exodus
5. Live Together, Die Alone
6. There's No Place Like Home
7. One of Us
8. The Pilot
9. Flashes Before Your Eyes
10.Tricia Tanaka is Dead
MUSIC
---------------
1. Moving On
2. There's No Place Like Home
3. Life and Death
4. Parting Words
5. Ocean's Apart
6. Locke'd Out Again
7. The Incident
8. Hollywood and Vines (aka Holy Fucking Shit)
9. Tangled Web
10.La Fleur
And for old times' sake:
1>3=4>5>>6>2
1 - A+
2 - C-
3 - A-
4 - A-
5 - B
6 - C
Erigu said:
It mattered what he was trying to do. How he did it is a different issue.
It was an analogy that I hoped would help you understand the dynamics of what I was trying to explain.
Well, I haven't thought about that particular tidbit, but would there have been a reason to, if Widmore wouldn't have been able to do it?
He wanted to escape. And I would think that what he needed to do in order to escape matters quite a bit.Willy105 said:
And what he wanted to do after escaping would be yet another, somewhat important issue, actually... You seem perfectly fine with the idea that he would then proceed to exterminate mankind one soul at a time (it certainly sounds like that's what Widmore is worried about), but what I can say? That sounds completely ridiculous to me. Why would he want to do that?
Yeah, I care about the characters' motivations making sense. I'm weird like that.
It was completely missing the point, as Widmore apparently thought he knew everything he needed to know about the situation. He said as much, anyway.
I don't even know what you're replying to, there... If Widmore wouldn't have been able to do what?
My attempt at reconciling all the "God help us all" talk is that somehow Widmore and Hawking predicted that the MiB was going to attempt to destroy the island in order to kill the candidates and put an end to Jacob's rules, and that destroying the island would end all life on Earth (for reasons probably wisely unexplained).Erigu said:
Does that make sense or am I missing something?
Once again, whether or not he's correct is beside the point. I explained that already.Willy105 said:
You're not keeping track of the discussion, a tendency I observed among quite a few of my Lost-loving interlocutors. I'm tempted to draw conclusions.
It would make sense... except for that detail I mentioned earlier: Widmore agrees to spill the beans about Jacob's last resort plan in exchange for the safety of his daughter. How could his daughter possibly be safe if the Man in Black destroying the island exterminated all life/mankind right away?Salmonax said:
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:
he's a human being and want to see his daughter safe? despite all the evil Widmore has done, in the end he's fighting for something even if his own daughter hates him.
Utterly missing the point as always... I really wonder how you managed to do that, considering you emphasized a pretty important part of my argument.evil solrac v3.0 said:
Again, this is most probably pointless, but here goes:
If Widmore agrees to spill the beans in exchange for his daughter's safety, that means he's not concerned about the Man in Black triggering the extinction of mankind simply by destroying the island. That's not the scenario he has in mind. He actually thinks the Man in Black is going to kill human beings one by one. And all of them, too.
And to make things worse, it looks like he and the Man in Black are on the same wavelength about that, in that scene. Widmore assumes the Man in Black will kill Penny anyway, and the guy basically says that he's willing to make an exception for her in exchange for information about Desmond's role in the whole ordeal.
So it's not just Widmore being stupid? That really is what you're trying to sell us, show? The Man in Black actually plans to exterminate mankind one individual at a time? That's the apocalyptic scenario Dôgen and Widmore worry about, and it actually is correct? I know I should be conditioned not to ask questions, at this point, but I have to wonder: why would the Man in Black want to do that?
ThLunarian
Member
Catalix said:
Characters:
1. John Locke - Early on I was all about Jack > Locke. It took Locke's death, and Jack's inspiration as a result of it, to make me realize just what a character Locke really was.
2. Jack Shephard - Fantastic character arc. His whole story is very poetic.
3. Sawyer - Incredibly complex character with a wide range of faces, each one wholly believable.
Episodes:
1. The End
2. Through the Looking Glass
3. Walkabout, though I heavily considered putting Deus ex Machina here. The last five minutes of that episode are on par with the last five minutes of Walkabout; the only reason Walkabout gets the nod is because it's so early on and gets everyone to want to keep watching.
Music:
1. Locke'd Out Again and all variations
2. The theme that plays during the last ten minutes of the series
3. Everything else
Season rankings, best to worst:
Season 1 (A+)
Season 3 (A)
Season 6 (B+)
Season 4 (B)
Season 5 (B-)
Season 2 (C+)
What if...
Jacob told Widmore one thing, and told MIB another. It is Jacob's world, and they're all just living in it.
What if Widmore was pulling a fast one on MIB, and played it up to be a big deal about getting down there with Desmond, as he knew that MIB would lose his powers and become mortal again. Whereas, since Jacob established the 'rules' on the island and he knew his brother wanted to kill him, he told MIB something that wasn't necessarily true.
Thousands of years pass, and this lie becomes legend.
And Jacob told Widmore the truth, brought him to the island, and DIDN'T tell the campfire crew because he had set so many things in motion for them already, that he knew they were right where they needed to be.
And such...
Jacob told Widmore one thing, and told MIB another. It is Jacob's world, and they're all just living in it.
What if Widmore was pulling a fast one on MIB, and played it up to be a big deal about getting down there with Desmond, as he knew that MIB would lose his powers and become mortal again. Whereas, since Jacob established the 'rules' on the island and he knew his brother wanted to kill him, he told MIB something that wasn't necessarily true.
Thousands of years pass, and this lie becomes legend.
And Jacob told Widmore the truth, brought him to the island, and DIDN'T tell the campfire crew because he had set so many things in motion for them already, that he knew they were right where they needed to be.
And such...
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Erigu said:
Why does it have to be one at a time? Couldn't Widmore just be thinking that MiB has the power to shield/pull away Widmore's daughter from whatever destruction/killing MiB was about to do?
Makes much more sense that way. Not sure how you jumped to a conclusion that Widmore's actions indicate he'd believe MiB was going to kill each person on earth individually. You're overthinking and overcomplicating things here by making assumptions about Widmore's thoughts.
404Ender said:
NO HE ISN'T!
HE'S ERIGU!
He reads their thoughts.
Similar to Kate's life summary.
That's like thinking you know everything there is to know about someone based on their Facebook wall. The regular and mundane don't make the wall, so we think that everyone's life is one big party,
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:
no, you missed the point, he's just stalling trying to say anything to stall MiB.
How does that make sense? It really was a big deal, in the end. And it's not like Widmore tried to make it sound like the Man in Black should totally send Desmond in that cave (because free candy! or whatever), on the contrary: he explicitly said that it was Jacob's last resort plan to stop the Man in Black once and for all.oatmeal said:
Where's the deception, here? I'm not seeing it.
What are you referring to? What would Jacob's lie be?
How is it a better idea to simply assume everything will work out just fine rather than simply tell them about Desmond's role? What's "wrong" about telling them about that?
Again, in the end, it all worked out because Jack assumed that's what Jacob meant to do with Desmond despite the fact he just talked to the guy the night before and didn't hear anything about that. It all worked out because Jack made a nonsensical assumption.
Was Jacob betting on that to happen? Does it seem reasonable, considering the stakes?
So he'd trigger the extinction of mankind by destroying the island... but would actually have the ability to shield someone from it?404Ender said:
That's one weird-ass assumption to make...
I mean, it was already hard to believe Widmore would just take "Evil Incarnate"'s word in the scenario where he'd kill people "manually"... but here? He would not just need to trust the guy would be willing to save his daughter's life, but also that he'd do so with some ultra-convenient magical ability we've never heard about (how would anybody know about that? did that situation ever present itself before?).
I'm not sure how that "makes much more sense"...
(not that I'd argue the "killing mankind one individual at a time" scenario makes sense, naturally)
How so? Please explain.=oatmeal said:
... Really, now?evil solrac v3.0 said:
I mean, he could have opted to:
1) not say anything, or
2) lie,
... but he went ahead and told the Man in Black the truth. That's one odd "stalling" strategy.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:
how would that make good drama? give it up, all your nit picks are falling apart just like the unplugged island.
Please explain how Widmore immediately spilling the beans and the Man in Black inexplicably deciding to go ahead with Jacob's last resort plan make for better drama than the alternatives I just listed. I'm curious.evil solrac v3.0 said:
Coming from the guy who keeps switching positions post after post, that's rich.
"He's telling the Man in Black about Jacob's fail-safe plan because he wants to save his daughter!"
"Forget about that: he's just stalling!"
"Forget about that: he's telling the whole truth right away because that makes for better drama than stalling!"
Before our lengthy back and forth...I just want to say...
You're an intelligent dude.
But I find it extremely odd that, with a show like LOST that keeps so much close to its vest, and demands the input and analyzation of the fans, you're so incapable of looking BEYOND what the show presents.
Instead of filling in the blanks, you're so concerned with what is right in front of you.
This seems like a show that someone like you would embrace and theorize, rather than tear it down and demonize the writers.
Don't bother responding to this.
I know you just ignored that last sentence....and this one...and this one...etc.
I'm in a hotel, in bed, on my laptop...and I should be sleeping...but I haven't been erigu'd in awhile.
You're an intelligent dude.
But I find it extremely odd that, with a show like LOST that keeps so much close to its vest, and demands the input and analyzation of the fans, you're so incapable of looking BEYOND what the show presents.
Instead of filling in the blanks, you're so concerned with what is right in front of you.
This seems like a show that someone like you would embrace and theorize, rather than tear it down and demonize the writers.
Don't bother responding to this.
I know you just ignored that last sentence....and this one...and this one...etc.
I'm in a hotel, in bed, on my laptop...and I should be sleeping...but I haven't been erigu'd in awhile.
TheMissingLink
Member
Catalix said:
Thank you for posting these! Just listened to each and wow, emoooootionsssss...
ThLunarian
Member
TheMissingLink said:
The soundtrack was everything in this show. Maybe even more than the characters, storylines, visuals, and mythology. Michael Giacchino is a genius.
ThLunarian
Member
Leeness said:I don't know if I can ever listen to this track again, haha. First time I heard it out of the show, I cried like a crazy person.
I didn't end up watching The End last night in celebration. I still can't.
I don't think the time is right for a rewatch.
I think I need to wait until I have a kid, and the kid is old enough to appreciate Lost, and then we'll watch it together.
By then, it will have been at least 15 years for me, so it'll be like the first time all over again.
What do you guys think? Plausible to pull off?
... Nope, sorry.oatmeal said:
Where did you get the idea Jacob instructed Widmore to tell the Man in Black that? How would that help them in any way?
Again: why? What's the point? In fact, if Desmond really is the key, wouldn't it be better not to let the Man in Black know?
Dude. That's completely idiotic.
As a matter of fact, we've seen that the Man in Black once wanted to kill Desmond precisely because it looked like he was of some value for Widmore. Remember when he sent Sayid to that well? Yeah, that.
How does it make sense for him to change his mind (and spectacularly so: he even decides to go ahead and send Desmond in the cave just like Jacob and Widmore intended to!) upon having those very suspicions confirmed?
How does it make sense to go out of your way to tell your enemy about a weak spot you discovered and assume said enemy would then get self-destructively cocky about it?
That's some bizarro psychological warfare you're coming up with, man...
I know of a better way to make sure he won't know what hit him: don't fucking tell him beforehand.
If those are lies, what's the truth, exactly? What does the Man in Black really need to do in order to leave the island, in your scenario? Just so we're clear?
And what would the point of those lies be?
If getting rid of the Candidates doesn't actually help, why tell him it does? It sure is a great way to paint targets on the poor people's foreheads, but apart from that?
Same thing for the cork: if you're supposed to protect the damn thing, why go out of your way to tell your evil brother he should try and fuck with it? Especially if you then (centuries later?) have Widmore tell the same guy that pulling the plug is actually part of a last resort plan to get rid of him, i.e. that it would actually be a bad idea for the Man in Black to fuck with that cork after all. Which is it? You make it sound like it's a pretty clever trick in both cases, and I'm not sure how that works exactly. I guess Jacob (and Darlton?) can do no wrong.
What, he doesn't like talking to people? He "doesn't like the way English tastes on his tongue"?
I mean, yeah, he apparently has some weird principles when it comes to meddling in mortal affairs ("I can't tell them what to do: that would be cheating! ... but I could use you as an intermediary and that would be totally fair!" ... whah?), but:
1) we're talking end of the freaking world, here,
2) he's responsible for the whole mess in the first place (and letting Ben stab him to death probably didn't help matters either),
3) we've seen he's not above intervening rather directly every now and then, really...
He'll go and tell Widmore how to deal with the Man in Black... but decide that it wouldn't be... what, "fair"? to tell Jack and the others the same thing? What's the difference?
He'll come back from the freaking dead (talk about going out of your way) to sit near a fire and lay the situation before Jack and the others... but keep some critical details from them? Why?
Those are some seriously arbitrary and contradictory principles, and I'm not sure how putting them before the fate of the world makes any kind of sense. Unless you're a freaking idiot, naturally. Maybe that's what you're getting at: Jacob is a complete moron. I don't know.
He knew Jack would make an absurd assumption about his plans for Desmond? That's what we were supposed to get out of the show: the world was saved because Jack acted like an idiot, "just as planned"? I dunno...
Yep, lots of absurd things happened on that island, and lots of nonsensical decisions were made as well. You won't see me argue.
"If Jacob brought Desmond here, there has to be a reason. He has to be a weapon against the Man in Black. I have faith in Jacob. ... Even if he didn't say anything about that, last night. Maybe he just forgot?"
That's... an interesting display of faith.
Huh? No, not at all. Where did I assume he had some special ability that would allow him to shield someone from the consequences of putting out the magical fire of the island?
We have several characters saying it would be catastrophic for the Man in Black to escape ("God help us all", etc), and Widmore assuming he would kill his daughter / talking about everyone ceasing to exist.
Now, maybe you'll argue that they could be mistaken about that, but then we're back to another criticism: ill-defined stakes.
No matter how you look at it, it's bad storytelling.
You claimed that I presumed I could read the characters' thoughts. How does that criticism apply to my summary of Kate's backstory? I merely summed up what we've seen on the show.
What, for the Kate stuff? Er... We do, actually.
The only detail I'm not clear on right now would be whether Kate got her childhood friend killed before or after she married that cop... and it wouldn't change anything to the point I was making either way, would it?
... Whah?
Once again, you're not making sense.
First, you agree with 404Ender that I "overthink" the whole thing and shouldn't presume to deduce the characters' motivations based on their words and actions, and then (about this Kate summary thing, I imagine?), you tell me that I fail to see beyond what the show presents...
...
No wonder the show's contradictions don't bother you, I guess.
BuggyDClown
Member
Hahaha.Erigu said:
Anyway. Mmmmmm LOST. Best series ever. Cant wait for rewatch # 16
Getting excited about Super 8. I'm getting a bit of a LOST feel. If it doesn't relate to LOST even a tiny bit, that's cool. What I see so far is characters experiencing something profound together, seemingly good character interaction, supernatural wonder that builds up for a while. Just seems like it'll have some high budget influences. I don't expect anything about the story to relate.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
"The plane clears frame, finally free of the Island. Jack Shephard has done what he came to this place to do. He has found his purpose. He has found love, and been loved. He has finally found a way to love himself. The bamboo sways across the blue sky, and Jack Shephard's eye closes one final time. He is gone. The end."
Great list Catalix.
I might do one....
Great list Catalix.
I might do one....
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Erigu said:
If I want to bomb the whole world, I can stick someone in a bomb shelter. If I want to launch chemical weapons, I'll put someone in a hazmat suit to save them. Is it really that weird to assume he wouldn't have some degree of control over his power to destroy mankind?
It's not. You're only saying that because it's convenient for your "argument". Also, either way, it would still be your opinion that it's a "weird-ass assumption", no matter how hard you push for each and every one of your points to be objective.
Is it his power to destroy mankind, now? I thought you were referring to Mommy's warning about putting out the fire of the island...404Ender said:
So... Er... What do you have in mind, exactly? 'Cause it didn't look like he had such an ability, during the show. When he attacked the temple, for example, he killed those people one by one.
Well, did the show say anything about such an ability?
Anyway.
Whether he'd eliminate mankind one individual at a time or in one fell swoop courtesy of some new ability that was never hinted at as far as I know (and possibly with some degree of control that would allow him to spare select individuals), it doesn't change anything to the point I was making...
Quick reminder:
I was arguing that if the Man in Black needs to destroy the island in order to escape (Willy105's theory), an escaped Man in Black would logically be powerless, as we've seen in the finale that his powers are tied to the heart of the island. And one would assume Widmore would be well aware of that, considering he's the one who brought Desmond to the island in order to play with that cork (apparently on Jacob's instructions).
So why is he worried about the Man in Black exterminating mankind upon escaping? The guy would be powerless!
And the reason I brought up that exchange regarding Penny was as follows:
One could argue that it wouldn't be the Man in Black himself who would be exterminating mankind, or not directly at least: it's his destroying the island that would trigger the end of days (just like Mommy warned, back in Across the Sea).
Thing is, Widmore appears to be thinking that's not how it would go, as he agrees to spill the beans regarding Jacob's fail-safe in exchange for the Man in Black's word that he wouldn't hurt Penny. Apparently, according to Widmore, the Man in Black wouldn't be indirectly responsible for all those deaths: he would actually kill them himself. The question then becomes: with what powers? See above: with the island gone, he should be powerless.
That's one of the reasons why I think the Man in Black needing to destroy the island in order to escape would make even less sense then him "simply" needing to get rid of Jacob and his candidates (as we've been told on the show). Another one would be that the guy didn't seem to be planning the destruction of the island until Widmore whispered in his ear. Or how did he intend to handle that anyway, before being told that Desmond could pull magical corks?
[And that's another matter, but the question of the Man in Black's motivations for exterminating mankind remains...]
Wow folks still discuss this show? Guess I wasnt as far behind as i thought. Watched the whole series this year from library. Was set on buying the complete set and really enjoyed early seasons but it became really clear they were making stuff up as they went along and had no plan or changed the plan the more the show went on. Final Season was a major turn off and just made the show laughable how much previous content didnt matter. Would actually be better for person to just watch the pilot and last ep.
robertsan21
Member
Probably the best tv series that there ever was.
And the music....the music is probably the best music in a tv series ever and will probably never be out done.
And the music....the music is probably the best music in a tv series ever and will probably never be out done.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Erigu said:
Wouldn't the heart of the island no longer be contained? It was my assumption that destroying the island would set MiB and his power source free. It'd basically be like he was instantly the atmosphere. I doubt he was planning on rafting to the mainland. Once he was free of the island I figured he'd have Jacob-like abilities to be anywhere whenever.
(OH MY GOD I'M DISCUSSING LOST WITH ERIGU, YOU GUYS.)
- Status