Support NeoGAF

[Drealmcc0y]

I wish you would write in normal paragraphs you make it hard to respond too

 

[hamchan]

This is the best thread.

 

[MMaRsu]

Ohh jesus erigu

lol

 

[Red UFO]

 

[Treefingers]

Bah this argument is gonna repeat forever, I might as well unsubscribe.

Can't believe it's only been a year since the finale. Feels like ages =(

 

[tycoonheart]

Ohh jesus erigu

lol

At least he's thought things through and isn't just stubbornly claiming shit. Dude is even providing links to direct quotes from the creators of the show. What more do you need to form a good argument?

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Bah this argument is gonna repeat forever, I might as well unsubscribe.

Can't believe it's only been a year since the finale. Feels like ages =(

It really does. It's amazing how big and timeless part of my life this show was as it aired and now it seems so long ago.

 

[dave is ok]

At least he's thought things through and isn't just stubbornly claiming shit. Dude is even providing links to direct quotes from the creators of the show. What more do you need to form a good argument?

An opinion that matches theirs

 

[Drealmcc0y]

But it almost always comes down to "they're hack writers they're making it up as they go along"

But theres no way to prove it, so you got nothing.

 

[dave is ok]

But it almost always comes down to "they're hack writers they're making it up as they go along"

But theres no way to prove it, so you got nothing.

It's provable through dangling plotlines and things said in interviews.

The fact that Ben Linus was originally a three episode part proves it alone.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

An opinion that matches theirs

Oh please. I spent six fucking years talking down overzealous LOST fans from chasing out dissenters from EVERY SINGLE THREAD I started. I have no problem with people calling out the show on its frequent missteps.

I do have a problem with how Erigu frames his arguments as personal attacks on individuals, which is the antithesis of the reasoned debate you seem to feel is missing.

So, yeah.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

The fact that Ben Linus was originally a three episode part proves it alone.

Thats your proof?

O lawd

 

[C.Dark.DN]

It's provable through dangling plotlines and things said in interviews.

The fact that Ben Linus was originally a three episode part proves it alone.

Did you or anyone think they wrote every episode and season of LOST before the pilot?

Every television series has writing and new ideas done between each season.

They said they knew the overall mythology from the get go, and did what every other television writers do, decide what they wanted to do with the mythology season by season.

That gives room to extend a character's life.

If this makes you a television writing hack, every television writer is.

 

[dave is ok]

Did you or anyone think they wrote every episode and season of LOST before the pilot?

Every television series has writing and new ideas done between each season.

They said they knew the overall mythology from the get go, and did what every other television writers do, decide what they wanted to do with the mythology season by season.

That gives room to extend a character's life.

If this makes you a television writing hack, every television writer is.

Most television writers don't make the claims that the Lost showrunners did. I assume the mythology when the show started was about one sentence long. Probably something like 'The island holds something very valuable which the monster defends'.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

^So basically it comes down to the writers making it up as they go along with NO proof to back it up

Again

Hmk

 

[dave is ok]

^So basically it comes down to the writers making it up as they go along with NO proof to back it up

Again

Hmk

For proof, read Erigus posts. He's far more elegant than I am

 

[Drealmcc0y]

For proof, read Erigus posts. He's far more elegant than I am

That aint proof of anything.

Lmfao

Thats just some dude quoting articles, who has no idea what went on behind the scenes.

Sit the fuck down Dave you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Erigu]

I do have a problem with how Erigu frames his arguments as personal attacks on individuals

I think Lost is a very, very stupid show.

BenjaminBirdie thinks it's great. (right?)

I explain my position.

BenjaminBirdie argues that the inconsistencies I list, for example, are just par for the course for long-running shows, and that you must be a glutton for pain if you go into those expecting better on that front.

I explain that I don't think my standards when it comes to storytelling are ridiculously high considering the sheer number of inconsistencies and silly plotlines that litter the show, and (logically) from my point of view, it would seem it's BenjaminBirdie's that are freaking low, actually.

BenjaminBirdie: OHNOYOUDIDNT

... The fuck?

They said they knew the overall mythology from the get go

Do you think they did?

 

[Drealmcc0y]

What does overall mythology even mean though lol

None of us could possibly fucking know, so the fact that erigu and others like him use it as the main reason for why the show sucks is fucking hilarious.

 

[dave is ok]

What does overall mythology even mean though lol

None of us could possibly fucking know, so the fact that erigu and others like him use it as the main reason for why the show sucks is fucking hilarious.

They admitted they didn't know what was in the hatch when they wrote it, among other things. So not knowing that means not knowing much about the Dharma Initiative, nothing about the Incident, etc. etc.

Do I think not knowing the plot well in advance ruins the show? Of course not. I just think they are lying when they said they had the broad strokes planned out from the start.

The Frozen Donkey Wheel was where the show started getting shittier to me, and things started falling apart after that - in my opinion.

 

[tycoonheart]

But it almost always comes down to "they're hack writers they're making it up as they go along"

But theres no way to prove it, so you got nothing.

I don't think thats the issue.

It is okay for the creators/writers to not know something specific. If they can, in the future, tie things together nicely, I think the viewers will respect it.

For example: Twin Peaks. Supposedly David Lynch didn't even want the viewers to ever know who the killer was, and he himself probably never thought that far into the show. However, he was pressured by the execs to reveal the killer. And he did so masterfully. That reveal ended up being one of the best episodes of the show.

As far as lost goes, I can't think of any of the early season mysteries that was handled well in the later seasons. The lamest one was the reveal that the whispers belonged to the spirits that were stuck on the island. So when you include a mystery and can't seem to provide a reasonable, well thought out explanation later on in the show, people aren't going to be happy. I think we're arguing that these explanation seemed tacked on and not well thought out. It doesn't matter if it wasn't thought out early on the show or later... just that it needs to be tied together much better than what they provided us with.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

They have openly said MANY times, that they were making things up as they went along during season 1, while laying out bits and pieces here and there during that season that knew where they wanted to go.

It wasnt until the creaks between season 1 and 2 that they had a chance to come up with tons of stuff they wanted to do.

I believe them.

But theres no proof either way.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

As far as lost goes, I can't think of any of the early season mysteries that was handled well in the later seasons. The lamest one was the reveal that the whispers belonged to the spirits that were stuck on the island. So when you include a mystery and can't seem to provide a reasonable, well thought out explanation later on in the show, people aren't going to be happy. I think we're arguing that these explanation seemed tacked on and not well thought out. It doesn't matter if it wasn't thought out early on the show or later... just that it needs to be tied together much better than what they provided us with.

Well thats just your fucking opinion really because i thought it came together really well.

I mean if you wanna say that it didnt come together for you, thats absolutly fine, but dont start using the "making it up" issue when you have no proof(for the 17th time )

 

[tycoonheart]

What does overall mythology even mean though lol

The point of the show.

The show ends up being about two guys battling each other. One trying to leave the island, who is supposedly evil and the other trying his best to not let that happen.

If I had told you this at the end of, I dunno, Season 3, you'd have probably told me I'm crazy.

 

[tycoonheart]

Well thats just your fucking opinion really because i thought it came together really well.

And I said that...

"I think we're arguing that these explanation seemed tacked on"

We as in those of us in here who aren't happy with what the show ended becoming.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

The point of the show.

The show ends up being about two guys battling each other. One trying to leave the island, who is supposedly evil and the other trying his best to not let that happen.

If I had told you this at the end of, I dunno, Season 3, you'd have probably told me I'm crazy.

So what?

I look back and watch the Cost of Living from early season 3 and that episodes reeks of foreshadowing.

But again you have NOTHING to back it up

 

[Drealmcc0y]

And I said that...

"I think we're arguing that these explanation seemed tacked on"

We as in those of us in here who aren't happy with what the show ended becoming.

You wanna have a reasonable discussion about what you didnt like? Thats great, I would love to discuss that with you.

But im tired of saying this now. So im going to leave it at that.

 

[tycoonheart]

You wanna have a reasonable discussion about what you didnt like? Thats great, I would love to discuss that with you.

But im tired of saying this now. So im going to leave it at that.

I'm not trying to make up your mind for you. I'm okay with you liking the show. Good for you. Some of us who are questioning certain aspects of the show... that doesn't matter to you. And that is fine. But you have to understand that the questions Erigu's brought up are valid and certainly you can understand how that can make someone dislike the show, right?

 

[Erigu]

It is okay for the creators/writers to not know something specific. If they can, in the future, tie things together nicely, I think the viewers will respect it.

Exactly. Heck, it's almost impossible to plan several years of a TV show in advance. Even if you only come up with a general outline, you're at the mercy of so many variables...

What I think happened is that the Lost showrunners knew they were trying their hand at something that had burned viewers before, and felt they needed to constantly assure them it that was worth staying tuned... even if that meant blatantly lying about their writing process: "We won't let you down like Twin Peaks! We won't let you down like the X-Files! We know all the answers to our mysteries! Trust us!"

(I actually like Twin Peaks and the X-Files (the "mythology" of that one was a mess though))

As far as lost goes, I can't think of any of the early season mysteries that was handled well in the later seasons. The lamest one was the reveal that the whispers belonged to the spirits that were stuck on the island.

I loved how Michael dropped by just for that.
Oh, and he's apparently now devoting his afterlife to warning the living of the dangers of explosives. Post-mortem traumatism, I suppose.

 

[Solo]

Erigu is Jack and dreal is Locke

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I'm not trying to make up your mind for you. I'm okay with you liking the show. Good for you. Some of us who are questioning certain aspects of the show... that doesn't matter to you. And that is fine. But you have to understand that the questions Erigu's brought up are valid and certainly you can understand how that can make someone dislike the show, right?

It goes a bit further than Erigu saying "hey I dislike this show"

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Erigu is Jack and dreal is Locke

Is there a higher honour than Solo calling somebody Locke?

I dont think so....

 

[Solo]

This time I don't mean it in the flattering sense. You are Locke in how much of zealot you are.

 

[tycoonheart]

So does that mean Dreal is going to leave this thread forever and Erigu is going to be the one who has a change of heart and defends the show rather than bringing up its inconsistencies?

 

[Solo]

So does that mean Dreal is going to leave this thread forever and Erigu is going to be the one who has a change of heart and defends the show rather than bringing up its inconsistencies?

 

[Drealmcc0y]

good you suck anyway solo

 

[Erigu]

Erigu is Jack and dreal is Locke

Man, we both lose...

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Btw who turned out to be right about most everything

 

[WillyFive]

Btw who turned out to be right about most everything

Locke. But he died a sad lonely man, and had his identity stolen by Satan.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Locke. But he died a sad lonely man.

Its for a good cause

 

[Drealmcc0y]

What an interesting quote from season 3

"Let's just say, theoretically, inside the Island there was this ball of electromagnetic energy. And, let's just say, there was a group of people—we’ll call them the DHARMA Initiative—sort of drilling around, and doing general futzing on the Island, and they accidentally drilled into this hole, and suddenly that entire ball of electromagnetism became untapped, so they built this Swan Station above it, in an effort that it wouldn’t get completely out of control. So, by plugging that hole, you don’t actually do away with all the electromagnetism. It's still there.

Carlton Cuse: It became tapped, actually.

Damon Lindelof: Yes, tapped, that’s right.

Carlton Cuse: Not untapped, but then now it's been re-corked. Let's just call it corked. It's been corked. It's not—it's … its fine. Don’t worry about it."

 

[Government-man]

I tried to scan the last few pages to see if this link has been posted but it was just all arguments so I'll just post this interesting follow up with the cast from EW.com:

'Lost': Catching Up With the Cast

 

[big ander]

I want to marathon all of Lost with Carlton and Damon and just see what they can and can't answer

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I tried to scan the last few pages to see if this link has been posted but it was just all arguments so I'll just post this interesting follow up with the cast from EW.com:

'Lost': Catching Up With the Cast

This is really great stuff. Thanks!

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Most television writers don't make the claims that the Lost showrunners did. I assume the mythology when the show started was about one sentence long. Probably something like 'The island holds something very valuable which the monster defends'.

Assume whatever you want, but saying they are hacks because of standard telvision writing procedures is ridiculous. What claims did they make?

In 2005,
"Cuse and Lindelof strongly dispute a contention they sometimes hear: that they are making up the series as they go along. They say mysteries and answers were part of a show "bible" devised early on. There are explanations for the monster, the polar bear, the hatch in the ground, the French woman and the island itself.

"We have a board in the writers' room with all extant mysteries: What questions are in play? Every time you put one up, you hopefully take one off," Lindelof says. Some answers will come by season's end; in addition, one of the 14 regulars will die."

In 2007, after Season 3, Calrton Cuse said "we specific designs for ending the next two seasons".

Also after season 3:
"BuddyTV: Is there enough information given on the show that someone could put together a fact-based theory that more or less explains what’s going on, on the island?

Damon Lindelof: I think that there are bits and pieces that someone could put together. Recently Carlton and I put out to the Yahoo community all over the world, what do you think the monster is? And some people came alarmingly close to what its origins were, how it functions, what its purpose is, but they weren’t able to go the next level as Carlton says, deeper into saying, “That’s what it is but what does that mean in the grander scheme of what the island is.” It doesn’t mean that someone couldn’t accidentally back into it and anticipate something that they haven’t seen yet. But sort of the real hardcore intel about the island is going to start to reveal itself towards the end of the season as we learn more about the others."

A few months before season 6 Calrton Cuse said:
"Although I acknowledge that people are really interested in the creative process of Lost, mostly it pertains to ... it all goes back to the idea of, "Are we making it up as we go along?" That's the question that people really want to know the answer to, and they want some proof. They want us to document the fact that we weren't making it up as we went along. And, in the spirit of the show, we just have to say, "If you choose to believe us, then that's what faith is all about." If you choose to disbelieve it, then we don't blame you. At the end of the day, all that matters is the story itself. If you feel satisfied by it, it shouldn't matter whether we had it planned from Day 1 or whether we made it up as we went along. In some places we did have to make it up as we went along, because Adewale (Akinnuoye-Agbaje) wanted to leave the show, or the Nikki and Paolo idea didn't work, or we didn't have an end date so we had to tap dance, or we went over-budget so we had to put them in cages for four episodes in a row. There are certain things where we had to adapt to whatever real-world scenario was happening with the show. But creatively speaking in general, there had to be a plan."

Approaching the finale here are some quotes from CC and DL:
"You know, Stephen King, who really helped catalyze our push to get an end date to the show was like, “I make it all up as I go along. I just start writing my books and then they go where they go."

"There were two creative periods in the show. The period prior to the middle of the third season when we didn't know how long we'd have to go, and then the period following that moment, where we knew exactly how long we had to go, and there were two very different ways of writing."

No comment from 2005, 2007, or 2010 contradicts eachother. They had an overall lueprint, a season by season blue print, and wiggle room for episode by episode. Anyone with with half a brain after season 1 would know there would be filler not thought up yet since there was no end date.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Assume whatever you want, but saying they are hacks because of standard telvision writing procedures is ridiculous. What claims did they make?

In 2005,
"Cuse and Lindelof strongly dispute a contention they sometimes hear: that they are making up the series as they go along. They say mysteries and answers were part of a show "bible" devised early on. There are explanations for the monster, the polar bear, the hatch in the ground, the French woman and the island itself.

"We have a board in the writers' room with all extant mysteries: What questions are in play? Every time you put one up, you hopefully take one off," Lindelof says. Some answers will come by season's end; in addition, one of the 14 regulars will die."

In 2007, after Season 3, Calrton Cuse said "we specific designs for ending the next two seasons".

Also after season 3:
"BuddyTV: Is there enough information given on the show that someone could put together a fact-based theory that more or less explains what’s going on, on the island?

Damon Lindelof: I think that there are bits and pieces that someone could put together. Recently Carlton and I put out to the Yahoo community all over the world, what do you think the monster is? And some people came alarmingly close to what its origins were, how it functions, what its purpose is, but they weren’t able to go the next level as Carlton says, deeper into saying, “That’s what it is but what does that mean in the grander scheme of what the island is.” It doesn’t mean that someone couldn’t accidentally back into it and anticipate something that they haven’t seen yet. But sort of the real hardcore intel about the island is going to start to reveal itself towards the end of the season as we learn more about the others."

A few months before season 6 Calrton Cuse said:
"Although I acknowledge that people are really interested in the creative process of Lost, mostly it pertains to ... it all goes back to the idea of, "Are we making it up as we go along?" That's the question that people really want to know the answer to, and they want some proof. They want us to document the fact that we weren't making it up as we went along. And, in the spirit of the show, we just have to say, "If you choose to believe us, then that's what faith is all about." If you choose to disbelieve it, then we don't blame you. At the end of the day, all that matters is the story itself. If you feel satisfied by it, it shouldn't matter whether we had it planned from Day 1 or whether we made it up as we went along. In some places we did have to make it up as we went along, because Adewale (Akinnuoye-Agbaje) wanted to leave the show, or the Nikki and Paolo idea didn't work, or we didn't have an end date so we had to tap dance, or we went over-budget so we had to put them in cages for four episodes in a row. There are certain things where we had to adapt to whatever real-world scenario was happening with the show. But creatively speaking in general, there had to be a plan."

Approaching the finale here are some quotes from CC and DL:
"You know, Stephen King, who really helped catalyze our push to get an end date to the show was like, “I make it all up as I go along. I just start writing my books and then they go where they go."

"There were two creative periods in the show. The period prior to the middle of the third season when we didn't know how long we'd have to go, and then the period following that moment, where we knew exactly how long we had to go, and there were two very different ways of writing."

No comment from 2005, 2007, or 2010 contradicts eachother. They had an overall lueprint, a season by season blue print, and wiggle room for episode by episode. Anyone with with half a brain after season 1 would know there would be filler not thought up yet since there was no end date.

Yeah, these are the statements I always go back to. They said the same thing for six years.

 

[dave is ok]

Yet the show got worse and more disjointed after Season 3, when they supposedly had the endgame stuff planned out

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Yet the show got worse after Season 3, when they supposedly had the endgame stuff planned out

Subjectively. Adventures Of New Otherton 1970s is one of my favorite storylines, Miles is one of my favorite characters, "Some Like It Hoth" is one of my favorite episodes.

 

[brandonh83]

I thought seasons 4 and 6 were way better than 1, 2 and 3. IMO season 4 had the best pacing and one of the most thrilling finales, and the last season, I found it to have the most depth and emotion.

Season 5 was underwhelming though. A few standout moments, but by far the worst season.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I thought seasons 4 and 6 were way better than 1, 2 and 3. IMO season 4 had the best pacing and one of the most thrilling finales, and the last season, I found it to have the most depth and emotion.

Season 5 was underwhelming though. A few standout moments, but by far the worst season.

Thats a bit of a change of heart.

I swear you loved season 1