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[Kunan]

show makes me all warm n fuzzy inside

EDIT: Now atleast. Watching it was an emotional rollercoaster lmao

 

[Snuggles]

Didn't they strongly hint at the mother being another smoke monster, in the commentary?
Not that I think it quite makes sense (what ever does, on this show?), but she did destroy that camp overnight...

And what about the Egyptian depictions of the monster?

This makes me think she was a smoke monster or at least something like it. There's no way, even in the nutty Lost universe, that some old lady could demolish a camp and take out a bunch of badass dudes like that. She must have been some kind of magic.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I havent seen the commentary, i do think its cool if she was though and my theory could still work.

 

[brandonh83]

This makes me think she was a smoke monster or at least something like it. There's no way, even in the nutty Lost universe, that some old lady could demolish a camp and take out a bunch of badass dudes like that. She must have been some kind of magic.

Damon and Carlton more or less confirm that she is a smoke monster in the commentary. They try to dance around it but fail miserably. On purpose.

 

[Erigu]

Not that it kept the MIB from killing her by simply stabbing her...

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I havent seen the commentary, i do think its cool if she was though and my theory could still work.

They hint at a LOT in that comment'ry

 

[Drealmcc0y]

What if, EVERY protector of the island is SUPPOSED to be the smoke monster.

Therefore a SECURITY SYSTEM!

But this time the rules were changed, something happened that wasnt supposed to happen. Claudia gives birth to two children when she was only supposed to give birth to 1(Look at mothers face when she finds out she about to have another) and this chain of events happens between Jacob and the little boy in black and we have this war between them and things happened that ultimately shouldnt have happened.

Mother didnt really care though in the end, she just wanted to die.

 

[Iceman]

Not that it kept the MIB from killing her by simply stabbing her...

she wanted to be stabbed to death.. jokes on.. the MIB I guess.

 

[Dali]

I think the dialogue makes it clear what's going to happen:

I think you're cherry-picking what bits of dialogue to take at face value and which ones to try to put your own twist on to avoid additional plot holes. I guess the intention was clear - Jacob wasn't supposed to seem as though he killed his brother - but the execution of this, the way actually happens, is just poorly done.

If anything is killing MIB here, it's the light.

I'll once again direct you to the Saayid comparison. But I'll also say, again, the intent is clear, Jacob doesn't think he's about to kill his brother (by pushing his unconscious body down a 100ft drop onto solid rock, smh), therefore he's not killing his brother, amirite.

But I'm not saying he returned from the dead. I'm saying that the light transformed MIB into Smokey, and his body was just behind. No soul = dead body, technically, but I wouldn't consider that the same as what happened to everyone else who died on the show because, unlike them, MIB still physically existed, albeit in a new form.

This is why I said this part of your pov is debatable. He wasn't the same as he was before. In other words Jacob's brother as Jacob knew him was dead. Dead body equals dead to some people, meaning rule broken. He was something else, that wasn't exactly Jacob's brother.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

she wanted to be stabbed to death.. jokes on.. the MIB I guess.

she probably created a rule for this to happen.

she says thankyou right before she dies

 

[Erigu]

What if, EVERY protector of the island is SUPPOSED to be the smoke monster.
Therefore a SECURITY SYSTEM!

Why would the mother talk about it as being a fate worse than death, then? If one of the kids is supposed to be it, that doesn't sound like a great approach.

she probably created a rule for this to happen.

Can't those protectors just create a rule that says "nobody can go near the heart of the island", and be done with it? Seriously.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Why would the mother talk about it as being a fate worse than death, then? If one of the kids is supposed to be it, that doesn't sound like a great approach.

Because she loves Jacob too much.

Can't those protectors just create a rule that says "nobody can go near the heart of the island", and be done with it? Seriously.

Then there wouldnt be a show.

 

[brandonh83]

I think you become a smoke monster by venturing down into the cave. I don't think every protector is one, but rather, every protector that does go into the cave was probably told not to. The Man in Black smoke monster was created by Jacob, which is probably why he MAY have been the one to build the cork apparatus-- to "keep evil out" as he demonstrated to Richard in Ab Aeterno. By evil of course he meant the dark substance in the cave that infects whoever ventures into it, cursing them.

Essentially a smoke monster is a product of being submitted to the cave. Jack didn't turn into one because of the cork thing that was keeping the supposed evil at bay was there when he went into the cave, which wasn't there when MIB went down, or presumably Mother. It's basically a curse you get for going into or tampering with the island's power and Jacob made the mistake of tossing some poor sod into it, creating the worst evil the island has ever seen and leading him to build the cork and bringing people to the island to not just become the new protector but to find a way to kill MIB and restore balance to the Force.

 

[Dali]

Why would the mother talk about it as being a fate worse than death, then? If one of the kids is supposed to be it, that doesn't sound like a great approach.


Can't those protectors just create a rule that says "nobody can go near the heart of the island", and be done with it? Seriously.

It was all according to keikaku.

1. Plant seed that the light is worse than death
2. Piss off MiB by filling his well/killing villagers
3. Let MiB knife her to death knowing it'll send Jacob bananas
4. Enter the wrath of Jacob. This bastard just killed maw. Death is too good for him. If only I knew of something worse than... I think I've got an idea.
5. ?????
6. New smoke monster.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I think it makes perfect sense for every protector of the island to supposed to be smokey.

Not only do you get incredible powers but you're literally chained to the island and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[VistraNorrez]

Like Ed Wood, or Uwe Boll (not saying I think they're interchangeable).
It's just so bad, it's kinda fascinating.

I figured I'd get this response, but that was not what I'm talking about. Very few people hate Uwe Boll or Ed wood movies, and those films having redeeming qualities, they entertain people so they are not really bad movies. Art that is truly bad cannot ilicit any strong emotion. Soap operas sort of fit this, as they are largely ignored, few are offended by their existence and few would be upset if they were cancelled. The best art usually creates a large amount of love and hate, and most artists love when people spew bile at their art, they know they touched something deep. And what else is art there to do other than touch someone deeply. Clearly Lost has touched you deeply or you wouldn't spend hours debating it.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I think you become a smoke monster by venturing down into the cave. I don't think every protector is one, but rather, every protector that does go into the cave was probably told not to. The Man in Black smoke monster was created by Jacob, which is probably why he MAY have been the one to build the cork apparatus-- to "keep evil out" as he demonstrated to Richard in Ab Aeterno. By evil of course he meant the dark substance in the cave that infects whoever ventures into it, cursing them.

Essentially a smoke monster is a product of being submitted to the cave. Jack didn't turn into one because of the cork thing that was keeping the supposed evil at bay was there when he went into the cave, which wasn't there when MIB went down, or presumably Mother. It's basically a curse you get for going into or tampering with the island's power and Jacob made the mistake of tossing some poor sod into it, creating the worst evil the island has ever seen and leading him to build the cork and bringing people to the island to not just become the new protector but to find a way to kill MIB and restore balance to the Force.

But you just said yourself, Darlton basically said that mother was smokey

 

[Blader]

she wanted to be stabbed to death.. jokes on.. the MIB I guess.

She had already appointed Jacob as the new guardian then. She had no power anymore.

I think you're cherry-picking what bits of dialogue to take at face value and which ones to try to put your own twist on to avoid additional plot holes. I guess the intention was clear - Jacob wasn't supposed to seem as though he killed his brother - but the execution of this, the way actually happens, is just poorly done.

That's kind of Across the Sea in a nutshell. :lol

I'll once again direct you to the Saayid comparison. But I'll also say, again, the intent is clear, Jacob doesn't think he's about to kill his brother (by pushing his unconscious body down a 100ft drop onto solid rock, smh), therefore he's not killing his brother, amirite.

Does Jacob even know what's down there at that point? All he knows is there's a light, and according to MIB and the other Roman nerds, the island's light is supposed to help you leave.

Now that I think about it, Jacob may not have actually been trying to kill or harm his brother then, and may have simply wanted to force him off the island, believing the light would take him away.

This is why I said this part of your pov is debatable. He wasn't the same as he was before. In other words Jacob's brother as Jacob knew him was dead. Dead body equals dead to some people, meaning rule broken. He was something else, that wasn't exactly Jacob's brother.

But he was still Jacob's brother, he just wasn't in his original body anymore.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I dont think AtS is poorly done, but its intentionally vague.

This is the mythology that Darlton want people to discuss for a long time, what were talking about right now.

 

[brandonh83]

But you just said yourself, Darlton basically said that mother was smokey

Doesn't discredit what I said. I think Mother went down into the cave and became a smoke monster. That's why she told Jacob that going into the cave leads to a fate worse than death; that's why she wanted to be killed by one of the boys. She found her very own loophole.

 

[Erigu]

Because she loves Jacob too much.

Does not compute. How would that explain anything?

Then there wouldnt be a show.

You're saying that like it would be a bad thing. :lol
Seriously, the whole thing with the "rules" was awfully arbitrary. Ben can't kill Widmore, oh wait, he can after all. The smoke monster can't kill the candidates, presumably because Jacob made it a rule he couldn't but didn't care too much about all the non-candidates out there. Contrivances, contrivances, contrivances.

The Man in Black smoke monster was created by Jacob, which is probably why he MAY have been the one to build the cork apparatus-- to "keep evil out" as he demonstrated to Richard in Ab Aeterno.

If Jacob was the one who put that cork there, doesn't that mean he could have uncorked the island himself so the MIB could be killed?

 

[bachikarn]

I wouldn't trust the commentary too much. They've said a bunch of shit before that ended up being not true. In the "Man Behind the Curtain" commentary, they pretty much implied that Ben was trapping Jacob into the cabin and he knew what was going on when shit went crazy in the cabin.

Also, if Mother was the smoke monster, how did she die without the light going out?

 

[brandonh83]

If Jacob was the one who put that cork there, doesn't that mean he could have uncorked the island himself so the MIB could be killed?

"I've made it so that you cannot hurt each other"

 

[Blader]

I wouldn't trust the commentary too much. They've said a bunch of shit before that ended up being not true. In the "Man Behind the Curtain" commentary, they pretty much implied that Ben was trapping Jacob into the cabin and he knew what was going on when shit went crazy in the cabin.

Yes, but the show is over now. There's no more for them to rewrite or retcon. :lol

 

[Dali]

She had already appointed Jacob as the new guardian then. She had no power anymore.

I don't think it's ever made clear that when a guardian appoints a new guardian they themselves lose their guardian powers (whatever they may be). The last line of the ceremony is something like, "we are the same" is it not?

Does Jacob even know what's down there at that point? All he knows is there's a light, and according to MIB and the other Roman nerds, the island's light is supposed to help you leave.

Now that I think about it, Jacob may not have actually been trying to kill or harm his brother then, and may have simply wanted to force him off the island, believing the light would take him away.

That's irrelevant. We know what's down there. I'm talking about Jacob breaking the you can't hurt your brother rule, not whether or not he was trying to kill him. His intent doesn't matter if the result is a dead brother.

But he was still Jacob's brother, he just wasn't in his original body anymore.

Yeah, I'm done arguing this point with you. I've explained why I think it'd be considered a death to me, and you've made it clear you don't see it as a death.

 

[Erigu]

Very few people hate Uwe Boll or Ed wood movies

If they were as popular and praised as Lost, you can bet some people would be pissed.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

I wouldn't trust the commentary too much. They've said a bunch of shit before that ended up being not true. In the "Man Behind the Curtain" commentary, they pretty much implied that Ben was trapping Jacob into the cabin and he knew what was going on when shit went crazy in the cabin.

They were just going along with it, they couldnt be all yeah this isnt actually Jacob.

AND ive noticed in old interviews and in the commentary they say "what may or may not be Jacob"... i kicked myself when i heard that.

Also, if Mother was the smoke monster, how did she die without the light going out?

she wasnt the protector anymore. New rules?

 

[Erigu]

"I've made it so that you cannot hurt each other"

It's not like uncorking the island would kill him outright, and we saw they could hurt each other despite mother's rule, so I think that would be fair game.

 

[bachikarn]

she wasnt the protector anymore. New rules?

I guess it is possible. I just thought the protector of the Island has smoke monster like powered. It seem all the supernatural elements came from the Island (smoke monster, special people like Walt, Hurley, and Miles, etc). So it perfectly makes sense as protector of the Island, Mother could manipulate the Light to fuck shit up.

 

[Merguson]

It's not like uncorking the island would kill him outright, and we saw they could hurt each other despite mother's rule, so I think that would be fair game.

Incorrect. She obviously means "to kill each other", but with the fact that they have no concept of death, she has to communicate with them in a way they understand. As adults, they clearly know that the rule is that they can't KILL each other.

 

[Erigu]

I wouldn't trust the commentary too much. They've said a bunch of shit before that ended up being not true.

You don't say! :lol

In the "Man Behind the Curtain" commentary, they pretty much implied that Ben was trapping Jacob into the cabin and he knew what was going on when shit went crazy in the cabin.

Heh. That probably was the idea, back then...

Also, if Mother was the smoke monster, how did she die without the light going out?

I brought that up above and was told that she wanted to die, so maybe it was different... 'Sounds like a cop-out to me (isn't that the kind of thing you'd want to specify on the show in some way or another?), but I don't think you can really argue anything else back...

Incorrect. She obviously means "to kill each other", but with the fact that they have no concept of death, she has to communicate with them in a way they understand. As adults, they clearly know that the rule is that they can't KILL each other.

... Yeeeah, and how does that make my post "incorrect" in any way? My point was that it looks like "as long as you don't kill the other guy, it's fair game", hence uncorking the island would be fair game.

 

[Blader]

I don't think it's ever made clear that when a guardian appoints a new guardian they themselves lose their guardian powers (whatever they may be). The last line of the ceremony is something like, "we are the same" is it not?

I suppose so.

I remember the other theory from the AtS being that MIB was able to kill the mother because he stabbed her before she could speak, going back to what Dogen told Sayid to. But then again, I never took that "you must attack him before he speaks or it won't work" line literally.

That's irrelevant. We know what's down there. I'm talking about Jacob breaking the you can't hurt your brother rule, not whether or not he was trying to kill him. His intent doesn't matter if the result is a dead brother.

Well, that was what you were saying, but fine.

Incorrect. She obviously means "to kill each other", but with the fact that they have no concept of death, she has to communicate with them in a way they understand. As adults, they clearly know that the rule is that they can't KILL each other.

Yeah. And this is further reinforced by the fact that when they are adults--in that same episode--MIB reminds Jacob that he can't kill him, not he can't hurt him.

 

[disappeared]

Why do you always make posts like this? If it bothers you so much to see people post negative things about your favorite show, you can just ignore it, or respond to the discussions which interest you. Instead you always feel like you need to defend any criticism with one-liners and smart ass remarks, and then when you get "outnumbered" you start whining. It's really terrible.

Or how about taking your own goddamned advice and ignore threads about shows you don't like? Is that feasible? You're a mod, so it comes with the territory that you hand out bans to people over in Gaming who go into threads dissing games just for the sake of it. I get it that you don't like the show, you've reiterated that time and time again in almost every Lost thread. So how about ignoring this one? Could you try that?

C'mon, duckroll, do it. Ban me. Ban me for challenging your hypocritical train of thought.

 

[Erigu]

I remember the other theory from the AtS being that MIB was able to kill the mother because he stabbed her before she could speak, going back to what Dogen told Sayid to. But then again, I never took that "you must attack him before he speaks or it won't work" line literally.

It would be rather silly, wouldn't it?
"You haven't spoken to me in 187 minutes, mother, and that means you're now vulnerable!"

 

[brandonh83]

It's not like uncorking the island would kill him outright, and we saw they could hurt each other despite mother's rule, so I think that would be fair game.

Okay well they could probably sit there and beat the shit out of each other, but maybe they weren't able to actually kill one another.

 

[Erigu]

Okay well they could probably sit there and beat the shit out of each other, but maybe they weren't able to actually kill one another.

Whoa, we're going in circles, there! :lol
Again, I didn't say anything about Jacob killing his brother. Just about him uncorking the island so his brother could be killed. By somebody else. Considering how the smoke monster terrified the castaways, they probably wouldn't need a lot of convincing. Then again, the same could be said about taking over Jacob's job (like Locke wouldn't have loved that)...

 

[brandonh83]

Whoa, we're going in circles, there! :lol
Again, I didn't say anything about Jacob killing his brother. Just about him uncorking the island so his brother could be killed. By somebody else. Considering how the smoke monster terrified the castaways, they probably wouldn't need a lot of convincing. Then again, the same could be said about taking over Jacob's job (like Locke wouldn't have loved that)...

Gandalf should have just instructed one of his damned eagles to drop the ring into Mount Doom

Dude, this is the same kind of shit you can say about every story of its type. There's probably SOMETHING more logical that could have been done from day one to resolve the issue, but it wouldn't make for interesting storytelling.

 

[cnizzle06]

Gandalf should have just instructed one of his damned eagles to drop the ring into Mount Doom

Dude, this is the same kind of shit you can say about every story of its type. There's probably SOMETHING more logical that could have been done from day one to resolve the issue, but it wouldn't make for interesting storytelling.

Avoiding a logical narrative makes for interesting storytelling? The more ya know!

 

[Dali]

I suppose so.

I remember the other theory from the AtS being that MIB was able to kill the mother because he stabbed her before she could speak, going back to what Dogen told Sayid to. But then again, I never took that "you must attack him before he speaks or it won't work" line literally.

Dogen was sending Saayid to die. If Locke had the chance to speak beforehand he may have been able to talk Saayid out of attacking in the first place and thus would not have been pissed off enough to kill him (which is how I imagine Dogen saw that playing out). It wasn't as if his words held any special mystical power other than him being a crafty speaker that could tempt people with what they wanted.

Well, that was what you were saying, but fine.

Uhh... no. I was saying he broke the rule whether it be by how the rule was actually stated - "hurt" - or some made-up interpretation "kill". I was saying his intent to kill is irrelevant if he actually killed his brother. I don't think the rule being broken or not being broken is incumbent upon how he was feeling when he did it or if he actually meant to break it or it was an accident.

Yeah. And this is further reinforced by the fact that when they are adults--in that same episode--MIB reminds Jacob that he can't kill him, not he can't hurt him.

Once again ignoring a point I've already brought up. MIB says the men killed a boar. They do have a concept of death at that point. Saying you can't kill me could be one way of stating a specific effect of the you can't hurt me rule, but the opposite isn't as clear.

 

[brandonh83]

Avoiding a logical narrative makes for interesting storytelling? The more ya know!

Well then I guess Lord of the Rings sucks too.

 

[Erigu]

Dude, this is the same kind of shit you can say about every story of its type. There's probably SOMETHING more logical that could have been done from day one to resolve the issue, but it wouldn't make for interesting storytelling.

I'd argue that good storytelling is interesting storytelling that makes sense... and not quite the mythological creature you make it out to be. :lol

Well then I guess Lord of the Rings sucks too.

If that book had as many contrivances as Lost, yeah, it would. Fortunately, it isn't quite there.
But yeah, that's an often asked question. Note how they outright say that "otherwise it would be a dull book" is a cop-out.

 

[Zeliard]

The only part of the mythology I found truly weak and nonsensical was the whole aspect of the "rules."

No consistency, no sense, no cohesion. It was their "get out of jail free card." Oh, we can't have that character kill that other character even though he wants that more than anything? Well, let's just make it a "rule" that he can't, and never come close to explaining that entire, highly critical concept.

I mean, it's one thing for them never to explain Smokey or the island's origin - I can understand leaving mysteries like those up in the air. But something so intrinsic to the show as the "rules" that govern it needed to have some sort of light shed on them.

Some of the other criticisms are pretty laughable, though. You have Erigu in a previous thread considering it some big, valid criticism that Nikki and Paolo ever even existed, while also at the same time refusing to give the writers credit for realizing their mistake and getting rid of them, and in fact considering this an even bigger mistake. "Well, what writers in their right minds would have created those characters? And they should have stuck to their guns and kept them." The illogical lengths some will go to in an attempt to discredit the show are amusing, to say the least.

 

[Erigu]

The only part of the mythology I found truly weak and nonsensical was the whole aspect of the "rules."

No consistency, no sense, no cohesion. It was their "get out of jail free card." Oh, we can't have that character kill that other character even though he wants that more than anything? Well, let's just make it a "rule" that he can't, and never come close to explaining that entire, highly critical concept.

I mean, it's one thing for them never to explain Smokey or the island's origin - I can understand leaving mysteries like those up in the air. But something so intrinsic to the show as the "rules" that govern it needed to have some sort of light shed on them.

True, true and true.

You have Erigu in a previous thread considering it some big, valid criticism that Nikki and Paolo ever even existed, while also at the same time refusing to give the writers credit for realizing their mistake and getting rid of them, and in fact considering this an even bigger mistake. "Well, what writers in their right minds would have created those characters? And they should have stuck to their guns and kept them."

Huh? I never argued the bolded parts at all. You should go read my posts again and refresh your memory, instead of putting words in my mouth...

 

[Blader]

Dali, here's how I see it.

You can accept either:

A) When the mother says "I've made it so you can't hurt each other," she means they can't kill each other. When MIB plunges into the light, he is not killed (since Jacob cannot kill him), just transformed into something else.

or

B) The mother meant that Jacob and MIB literally cannot hurt each other (despite the two instances of the opposite happening), and that Jacob actually did kill MIB by throwing him into the cave (even though that's not supposed to be something he can do), and that Damon and Carlton are simply so inept and stupid that they could not keep track of their own writing within the span of a 40-ish page script, thus giving rise to plot holes at every turn.


A is a way of easily making sense of the story. B does the opposite.

Now, Damon and Carlton may very well be extremely incompetent and unorganized as both writers and human beings in general, but regardless, I choose to accept A because it makes sense of the episode while B doesn't.

 

[Merguson]

... Yeeeah, and how does that make my post "incorrect" in any way? My point was that it looks like "as long as you don't kill the other guy, it's fair game", hence uncorking the island would be fair game.

Jacob can't uncork the Island because he needs an unique resistance to electromagnetism and say even if he did, he would lose his protector status. That means MiB has no one to stop him and could escape. But why does Jacob not want MiB to leave the Island? Simply put, knowledge of the Island, because so organizations like DHARMA won't find the Island and cause any incidents which DHARMA almost did. DHARMA found the Island by chance, unforenately, but in the end, the Others wiped them all out and ensured that no one would be suspect of DHARMA's disappearance by keeping the illusion that DHARMA was still alive (food drops.. dharma stations still active...). Obviously the Island needed to be a secret. An scientific organization may convince the world that such an Island exists, but a handful of survivors would be perceived as delirious. Not to mention the Others monitoring them further proves the point that the Island was not meant to be discovered by the outside world.

Anyways..

Obviously, leaving the Island uncorked would bring dire consequences, and according to the DHARMA Initiative, containing electromagnetism is essential to prevent any catastrophe. If Desmond could be unconscious when uncorking the Island, then who's going to plug it? No one. So Jacob needed someone to become the protector and someone who could withstand the electromagnetism, hence why he wanted Widmore to bring Desmond back to the Island. the candidates to keep MiB on the island, Desmond the key to killing MiB, and the candidates to kill the MiB.

That's basically what I thought of after the show ended, in like five minutes.

 

[brandonh83]

I'd argue that good storytelling is interesting storytelling that makes sense... and not quite the mythological creature you make it out to be. :lol

I don't make it out to be anything other than what I think it is, and if you'll notice I was having quite a happy time dissecting theories and throwing out some of my thoughts before you came in and hit the start button on the bullshit generator. I think elaborating on theories and putting some thought into what the writers had to say, rather than having to defend it against the likes of people like you is far more constructive; it comes down to me wanting to discuss it in a more calm atmosphere rather than type out these huge posts to counter what you throw at me.

Tell you what. If you want to dislike the show, great. You have my blessings. But I'm going to continue to go about this discussion as I was at an earlier point in the thread, because while discussing these things, it made me realize the meaning behind other things that I hadn't considered before, and it keeps bringing me closer and closer to understanding more about the story which enables for excellent and entertaining and insightful debate. It's a lot more fun than trying to keep the same couple of negative Nancies at bay all day long and I guarantee I'm getting way more out of this than you are.

 

[Zeliard]

True, true and true.


Huh? I never argued the bolded parts at all. You should go read my posts again and refresh your memory, instead of putting words in my mouth...

No, you did. With no search function, I don't have the patience to go dig up your posts, but I was the one who was arguing it with you.

I remember it clearly because it was so sad.

 

[Blader]

No, you did. With no search function, I don't have the patience to go dig up your posts, but I was the one who was arguing it with you.

I remember it clearly because it was so sad.

:lol

 

[Erigu]

No, you did.

No, I didn't.

With no search function, I don't have the patience to go dig up your posts, but I was the one who was arguing it with you.
I remember it clearly because it was so sad.

Clearly, huh?
The posts themselves, in case your board settings mess that link up: * *

 

[Zeliard]

No, I didn't.


Clearly, huh?
The posts themselves, in case your board settings mess that link up: * *

Well, the characters had barely done anything anyway, right? The way I see it, it was more of a knee-jerk reaction from the fanbase: "we've never seen those guys! where do they come from anyway?!"
I think a writer shouldn't bother with that kind of reaction and stick to his guns, if he knows he has some great stuff for those characters in his sleeve. ... Not that I believe Darlton had great plans for those two anyway, here, so, y'know...

Darlton didn't have great plans for them, but they should have stuck to their guns and kept them... because, well, because of something, certainly.

Well, thanks for providing the link.