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TheChewyWaffles
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Erigu said:
For what it's worth, I enjoyed most of the seasons on the premise that the writers actually knew what the hell they were doing. That was an assumption that as long-since been shattered.
Oh, that's right. Did the fake Locke get that idea from the fact the others were back already? After all, they were all on the same Ajira plane...Salmonax said:
But never mind that: so you think the Main in Black wanted the candidates back on the island (just like Widmore and Hawking, conveniently enough... it's like that thing with Jack and the MiB agreeing to lower Desmond in the magical cave: they might be opposing forces, but who's gonna advance this mess of a plot? let's work together!)? Guess Jacob's final "they're coming" was actually good news to him, then?
Even better - since he absorbed Locke's memories, he could have gotten the idea from the fact that it had already happened. Fun with paradox.Erigu said:
I guess it comes down to how omniscient the man in black is supposed to be. Assuming he didn't see the arrival of 316 coming, the candidates coming back to the island could be seen as an unfortunate but necessary side-effect of the "becoming-Locke" gambit.Erigu said:
Yeah, they sure did a great job at conditioning people to just accept whatever nonsense they were coming up with based on the promise that it would all make sense sometime down the road (like, in several years), and then to accept that none of it ever really mattered.BigNastyCurve said:
True. Anyway, in the end, the idea of coming back with everybody didn't come from anybody in particular, and just happened to coincide with Widmore and Hawking's (unexplained) intentions.Salmonax said:
I believe it's clear it was really all about the writers trying to get the characters back and coming up with terrible pseudo-justifications to achieve that. Note how they "all" need to come back together... except for the kids (after all, the writers didn't know what to do with them and went trough enough trouble to get them off the island already, as they couldn't just unceremoniously kill them off like they do adult characters). And after all that and the urgency regarding their time window, Widmore gets there in his sub just because. Okay.
Say, where did the idea of Locke having to die come from though? Chronologically speaking, the first one to say that would be that Christian-looking dude, near the wheel, back when Christian wasn't even born...
Good thing he somehow managed to foresee that Locke would die off-island and Hawking would insist for everybody to go back with the corpse. And good thing Ilana didn't immediately blow his cover (say, Bram had some magical ash on him, right? you could have trapped him, or... ah, well).
And why did he need to become Locke, again?
Yeah, for me 316 was the episode where things started to seem pretty excessively arbitrary.Erigu said:
I assume that's the same Christian who made his way to the freighter to say goodbye to Michael (meaning, I dunno). To truly attempt to make sense of it, you have to assume those apparitions were the spirit of the island or something. It's actually annoying to me that they explained Christian as being MIB in S6 because it arguably broke more than it answered, and it wasn't particularly satisfying to find out anyway.Erigu said:
I guess convincing everyone Locke was a messiah and then assuming his reincarnated form would enable him to convince anyone to do anything, including killing Jacob. Seems like kind of an over-elaborate long con considering MIB's powers, but I think that's how the show played it. This sort of goes to the omniscience of MIB again, because I find myself wondering how he knew so much about the flashes in advance (like where to meet Locke when he'd been shot by Ethan). I'd say it was Locke's memory, but Locke had no idea when or where he was at that point.Erigu said:
Well, even if I think it doesn't make much sense for the ghost of Jack's father (of all people) to appear in front of Michael on that freighter, it's still a lot less ridiculous than his ghost appearing before he was even born and telling Locke to go find Eloise Hawking in Los Angeles (because she will be waiting for him in 140+ years?).Salmonax said:
That whole thing about the island having its own will sure was convenient for the writers ("no, Michael, you can't kill yourself: the island won't let you!") but went absolutely nowhere, in the end...
Still, that Christian in the well said "you came to see me in the cabin, you asked me how to save the island and I told you you had to move it", so it would have to be the same Christian who was with Crazy Claire in the magical cabin. And it sure sounds like that was the Man in Black, in retrospect, doesn't it?
And of course he'd want to help the candidates find water! It's not like he wants them to die or anything!
Funny thing being that the writers tried to justify the lack of answers with a "you don't want the characters to just sit down and blurt out random answers, do you? how stupid would that be!"... and they then proceeded to do just that. And for some seriously silly pseudo-answers, too.
It certainly is quite the long con, especially considering it depended on quite a few things happening off-island, where the Man in Black couldn't intervene...
Besides, the real idea was to have someone kill Jacob, in the end, right? Did the Man in Black really need Locke for that? Weren't the Man in Black's many supernatural abilities enough to achieve that goal without such a convoluted long con? It was a lot simpler with Richard, wasn't it?
And even the motivational speech didn't sound all that convincing:
Wait.
1)
Jacob gave Ben cancer? Or he was the one who healed everybody else, and he didn't bother with Ben?
Okay, never mind: true or not, let's say Ben is simply willing to believe that...
2)
Did Ben lose his daughter for Jacob? Was Ben doing all that for Jacob, or in order to maintain his position of leader on the island? I was under the impression it was mostly the latter...
Anyway, it's not like Jacob pulled the trigger (and neither did Widmore, actually, but that's yet another matter)...
3)
And the reason Ben should be pissed off: despite "everything he's done for Jacob" (whatever that was), he was banished?
What, when he turned that wheel?
Last I checked, Ben was the one who claimed (for some reason???) that Jacob wanted him to turn the wheel. It was his choice / weird deduction. He could have let Locke do that (since the guy was about to anyway) and thus get rid of the competition, but no, he actually encouraged Locke to stay behind and become the new leader. Er... Counter-productive much? Pick one, Ben: did you come to terms with the idea that Locke was to become your successor, or are you so jealous you'd rather kill him than let him commit suicide?
Besides, amusingly, that thing about not being able to come back once you've turned the wheel (because that makes sense, shut up!) was never mentioned again: Ben went back anyway, and Widmore didn't seem to mind when he told Locke that he had to go back. (*)
Still, the speech worked. Somehow.
I guess you can bullshit a bullshitter, rather easily at that, when it's convenient for the plot.
Indeed... The show sure was working extra-hard to show again and again how knowledgeable and in control the reborn Locke was, back then. But how he knew all that, in the end? Guess that's not important.
And of course, if the guy indeed had some kind of supernatural prescience, if that's yet another ability to add to an already impressive list, it's even more baffling that it took him so long to finally get Jacob killed... With what sounds like an extremely shaky plan, too. Even in the end, it only worked out because Jacob decided to let Ben kill him instead of defending himself like 140 years earlier.
(*)
Then, they just forgot about the wheel altogether, in the series finale, it seems:
Actually, yes, people can leave the island. Many people did that, in fact. Including you, Hurley. Maybe you just forgot. And even if you're out of crashed-airliners-that-can-somehow-be-quickly-fixed-by-three-guys-and-some-duct-tape, there's still Desmond's Nice Boat, and, yeah, the wheel.
And was that "how Jacob ran things", really? It certainly didn't look like it: some Others were leaving the island every now and then. Maybe they forgot about that, too.
Kitschkraft
Member
Season 2 was one of my favorites although I understand why many disliked it. Felt very mysterious. I like camp though. I'd definitely take it over the last 2 seasons. *shrugs*
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Erigu said:
Seriously?
Richard Alpert told him to bring them back. Which was actually information given to Richard by the MiB.
More genius writing from lost.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
Erigu said:
Drealmcc0y is not wrong, just thought I'd let you know.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Did you guys know that in the episode where we first see Adam and Eve, the script says:
But they took it out because ABC didnt want them to say it.
Heres the link to the script:
http://leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Lost/Lost_1x05_-_House_of_Rising_Sun.pdf
Its on page 21 I think.
God damn and all the hate the writers get for Jack saying 40-50 years.
But they took it out because ABC didnt want them to say it.
Heres the link to the script:
http://leethomson.myzen.co.uk/Lost/Lost_1x05_-_House_of_Rising_Sun.pdf
Its on page 21 I think.
God damn and all the hate the writers get for Jack saying 40-50 years.
So we're looking at previous drafts to try and solve inconsistencies, now? That's not desperate at all.
It doesn't matter what a previous draft said. They had a character say they were relatively recent corpses, pretended that would eventually prove they knew where they were going (a claim that never made sense in the first place), and in the end, the hilariously contrived explanation they came up with didn't fit. Success?
It doesn't matter what a previous draft said. They had a character say they were relatively recent corpses, pretended that would eventually prove they knew where they were going (a claim that never made sense in the first place), and in the end, the hilariously contrived explanation they came up with didn't fit. Success?
Erigu said:
Well, it does help the fact that Jack saying that it was a short amount of time wasn't their intent.
It doesn't prove anything about them knowing anything beyond that, but if it's true that ABC said "No, no, that's too much" and they had to change it...that's just shitty luck.
Ultimately, it really doesn't matter.
I'm just assuming that Dreal was reporting something he found, if that was their intent and it was changed...well you can't blame the writers for that.Erigu said:
You'll notice I said "IF"...Erigu said:
It doesn't matter, regardless of what happened.
I'm sure they put it in as a hook, but they didn't know the specifics of what the hook was.
Salmonax said:
I still can't pick a favorite season. Favorite episodes, for sure, but seasons 1-3 are pretty even just as seasons 4-6 are pretty even, so it really comes down to 1st half vs. 2nd half for me. I probably prefer 1-3 just for being classic Lost, with the camp and all the intrigue but I appreciate 4-6 for having better pacing and less filler.
Damn, as soon as I finish Deadwood it's time to boot up Netflix and do a rewatch. Love this show.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
oatmeal said:
I just read it on a forum and had a link to back it up.
Ive just started doing a rewatch.
Watched up to Confidence Man so far(Unappreciated Gem btw). Season 1 is great, but not enough mythology.
That has nothing to do with what I just said. Again, Jack's comment about the clothing is in that script as well. You can go and check.oatmeal said:
The only difference is that after that, in a later scene, Jack adds that the bodies were placed there "decades, maybe centuries ago"... which is a bit odd after his previous comment (... and I would consider that a good reason to get rid of one of those two lines, in fact...).
Either way, those aren't 2000 year-old skeletons. But then, at the end of the show... Magic!
We agree on that. But they claimed they did know, and even that it would be evidence that they knew where they were going. Cool if we agree that they lied, then.
The link doesn't say anything about why that line isn't in the actual episode. Where does that thing about ABC come from?Drealmcc0y said:
Drealmcc0y
Banned
The skeletons are the shows adam and eve.
The origin, thats what they knew. A plan was in motion.
The origin, thats what they knew. A plan was in motion.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Snuggler said:
Yeah Sawyer is pretty awesome in the earlier seasons.
Sawyer has had some pretty awesome centrics.
Confidence Man, Outlaws, The Long Con, LaFleur.
Even though Season 6 was his weakest season, i'm glad he was there to the end.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Erigu said:
The same way I know how you know.
I looked on the forum, but I cant find the thread. I'll keep looking though.
I see what you're saying, I apologize.Erigu said:
I would think, however, if the BODIES were old...their clothes would be old, too. Unless someone pulled some Weekend at Bernie's type stuff with them.
If that's what happened. Everything you or I or anyone says about what happened in the writing room is conjecture.Erigu said:
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Erigu said:
Two Players, Two Sides, One is Light, One is Dark. Adam and Eve = Origins
The fact that Darlton specifically said 3 seasons before it happened, that this was proof of a plan.
Whats yours?
Drealmcc0y
Banned
It seems to be all or nothing with Erigu.
Because they didnt have the whole backstory planned and only a bit of it planned, seems to equal no plan to him. Interesting.
Because they didnt have the whole backstory planned and only a bit of it planned, seems to equal no plan to him. Interesting.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Nevermind erigu, but I dont think ABC thing is true. Its still interesting that they had in the original script "centuries"
They were shooting themselves in the foot though with the 40-50 year thing.
They were shooting themselves in the foot though with the 40-50 year thing.
Salmonax said:
I'm in the camp that originally, they were all dead and when people started guessing it, they adapted.
If you listen to Vozzek69 (the best LOST theorizer IMO) on The ODI podcast, he lays it out pretty well in their Finale recap.
That's why the ending that they used in the church was, as that ex-Bad Robot employee said, exactly as JJ first wrote it.
I hope in another year or undetermined amount of time, they let the bible out. I'd love to read that 18 page treatment that sold ABC.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
oatmeal said:
I completely agree.
I mean the name Christian Shepherd speaks for itself.
This thread would be so awesome if Michael Giacchino was scoring it.
Also, Michael Giacchino is awesome, and so is his music for Lost. Works everywhere.
Also, Michael Giacchino is awesome, and so is his music for Lost. Works everywhere.
Yeah, I totally agree with that. They must have been pretty freaked out when that speculation started surfacing.oatmeal said:
All in all, I think they did a solid job bringing it full circle and keeping it emotionally resonant. Although I don't appreciate the red herring of the island being underwater in the afterlife.
One of the few things that they seemed to be consistent with through out the entire series is the Smoke Monster. I'm sure someone like Erigu could still point out some inconsistencies, but it seems like it was handled better than most of the long-term plotlines in the show.
I rewatched the first Jack-centric episode (White Rabbit) and seeing the manifestation of Christian made a lot of sense now, knowing it was just Smokey using the form of Christian to manipulate Jack. Pretty cool stuff.
On a similar note, that brings me to my favorite line in Lost:
You are not my brother.
It's a damn shame that Eko's storyline got cut short.
I rewatched the first Jack-centric episode (White Rabbit) and seeing the manifestation of Christian made a lot of sense now, knowing it was just Smokey using the form of Christian to manipulate Jack. Pretty cool stuff.
On a similar note, that brings me to my favorite line in Lost:
You are not my brother.
It's a damn shame that Eko's storyline got cut short.
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Its actually "You speak to me as if I were your brother"
Drealmcc0y
Banned
Salmonax said:
He tried to drive Jack off a cliff indirectly.
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