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[Deleted member 12837]

There again, that would be a lot more convincing if you had some examples...

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

You kinda expect some explanations, based on actual examples.

Actually I don't. You've made your opinion very clear with or without examples.

 

[Erigu]

Guess I don't find merely exchanging opinions without even trying to justify them very interesting...

 

[bubnbob]

what's with the discrepancy of jack's chest hair? of all the nerve.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

what's with the discrepancy of jack's chest hair? of all the nerve.

That's how you can tell those creeps Damon and Carlton had no clue what the ess they were doing.

 

[PedroPanache]

I have to say my favourite Ben moment was when he unceremoniously murdered Charles Widmore to seal his redemption arc for the second time. His first time, with shaking Locke's hand and leaving the island, a humbled man, to let him rule, only for him to choke Locke to death was obviously just a dry run. I can only assume the opportunity to kill Hugo never really presented itself, though with Hurley's high cholesterol. I imagine he was willing to play the waiting game on that one.

I loved Lost and learned to disengage my brain towards the end and just enjoy it for what it was. By the time season 6 rolled around, the fact that Bram helped carry a dead John Locke across the island to show to Richard who they were dealing with in fake Locke, and, then incredibly, would ask flocke who the hell he was, well, I just let it wash over me in a wave of indifference.


Good times, though, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. Just don't ask me to watch the damn thing again.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Guess I don't find merely exchanging opinions without even trying to justify them very interesting...

Neither do I.

I don't believe you encourage thoughtful, reasonable, or interesting debate, which is why I rarely engage you. Most of the time, I choose to discuss Lost with others outside this topic instead. I could just put you on ignore, but you're too entertaining.

I can't imagine you conceding on any point, no matter what is said, which sort of makes the discussion with you pointless, doesn't it? That certainly doesn't mean you can't express your feelings about the writing, the show, etc, but to continually bring it up in this topic past the first time, even when totally unprovoked, doesn't make much sense if you're so firmly set in your beliefs.

Are you maybe secretly hoping someone comes in here and proves you wrong to your satisfaction? That's really the only explanation I can think of for you continuing to hang around.

 

[Erigu]

I can't imagine you conceding on any point, no matter what is said, which sort of makes the discussion with you pointless, doesn't it?

Assuming you're right about that, yeah. Are you though?
I know I'm perfectly capable of making concessions, when I'm confronted with sound / well thought out retorts. Happens fairly often, too. Just not so much in this topic.

And for the record, I also find it really hard to believe some of my interlocutors would ever make some concessions (for example, when I'm told that Locke talking about "two sides, light and dark" is evidence that the writers already knew where they were going with Jacob and Barry, or that Kate's backstory is "resonant", I'm not too hopeful), but I wouldn't cut a discussion short when I'm asked to step up and provide evidence by claiming "well, why should I even bother? you wouldn't listen!" That just sounds like a cop out (and I'm not too fond of cop outs, in case I hadn't made that clear already).

[By the way, that also applies to you, Drealmcc0y.]

Are you maybe secretly hoping someone comes in here and proves you wrong to your satisfaction?

About the writing on the show in general? I really don't think that could happen, but that would certainly be interesting.

That's really the only explanation I can think of for you continuing to hang around.

Really, now?
I find discussions like this stimulating (when both sides commit to it, anyway...), no matter the outcome. Coming up with theories or tearing them apart is fun.
But hey, fuck that, I guess? Let's just state our opinions without bothering to explain them (only positive opinions though, or that would be akin to trolling, naturally). "Let go" of brain activity!

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

And for the record, I also find it really hard to believe some of my interlocutors would ever make some concessions (for example, when I'm told that Locke talking about "two sides, light and dark" is evidence that the writers already knew where they were going with Jacob and Barry, or that Kate's backstory is "resonant", I'm not too hopeful), but I wouldn't cut a discussion short when I'm asked to step up and provide evidence by claiming "well, why should I even bother? you wouldn't listen!" That just sounds like a cop out (and I'm not too fond of cop outs, in case I hadn't made that clear already).

Christ. I have absolutely had it now.

You won. You broke me.

Me appreciating Kate's backstory is not something I can PROVIDE FUCKING EVIDENCE FOR. IT IS ENTIRELY FUCKING SUBJECTIVE. IT EITHER RESONATES WITH YOU OR IT DOES NOT. YOU KEEP TROTTING THIS OUT AS EVIDENCE THAT I DO NOT ENGAGE IN DEBATE WITH YOU. THIS IS A LIE. YOU CANNOT ENGAGE IN BACK AND FORTH ABOUT THE SUBJECTIVE.

The show presented a backstory for Kate Austen. You can watch it and think it is flimsy and uninteresting. I can watch it and, for whatever reason be it experience, identification, whatever, it might resonate with me. That's a huge reason that the show, all six seasons, worked for me. Stories like Sawyer's and Kate's and Hurley's resonated with me.

But you play this card like "Oh, no one engages me. No one listens to me. I just get called a bully and then the person runs away." This is just grotesque. How in the fuck am I supposed to discuss the ways in which Kate's story is resonant? Point out exhibits a through k in which the show presented interesting aspects of her character?

Maybe you don't think Lilly is a good actress? Competent in selling those moments? Perfectly feasible. I, on the other hand, enjoyed her performances throughout the show. Again, what are the possible debates here?

I again direct you to the dictionary definition of "Subjective" which you have posited means "Nothing means anything" which is calamitously stupefying.

I personally have never gone "toe to toe" with you on your crusades against the writers or the way that this or that never added. Lost worked for me almost exclusively on an emotional level. The thematics of building a community out of disparate and often contentious parties are what appealed to me, much like the a zillion more times more successful Deadwood. I don't really care what fit together or what didn't because in the examination of this theme, the show was unflagging.

I argued with you about Kate Austen (and I'm sure other things that I've forgotten about but that I'm sure you have stored in whatever Google doc you use to keep track of this thread) and that's it, but you continue to treat it like it's the same as one of these other neverending back and forths about what the numbers really meant or why the Others did this or that or whatever things were directly contradicted in the show.

Hurley, Sawyer, Kate, and Miles were interesting characters throughout the entire show. That was never contradicted. You have no argument against my stance because there is no argument to be had. So do us all a favor and stop lumping me in with all this other shit.

Or don't. It doesn't matter. You finally broke me down.

 

[BuggyDClown]

Still trying to figure out what I want to make my LOST themed tattoo. Eventually I will get one.

Just finished sundown. Only 10 episodes left. My cousin is loving the series, its so awesome. Really will never be another series like it ever again. I'm desperately awaiting an announcement of some sort of continuation of the series.

The LOSTverse is so large and expansive. I'd love to see a graphic novel of some sort made. Maybe a comic series, I think it would be a great way to tell a new story. One day, it will happen. I sure hope it's good though.

So sad this rewatch is about to come to an end though. That means I get to start planning my fall/winter rewatch.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Assuming you're right about that, yeah. Are you though?
I know I'm perfectly capable of making concessions, when I'm confronted with sound / well thought out retorts. Happens fairly often, too. Just not so much in this topic.

And for the record, I also find it really hard to believe some of my interlocutors would ever make some concessions (for example, when I'm told that Locke talking about "two sides, light and dark" is evidence that the writers already knew where they were going with Jacob and Barry, or that Kate's backstory is "resonant", I'm not too hopeful), but I wouldn't cut a discussion short when I'm asked to step up and provide evidence by claiming "well, why should I even bother? you wouldn't listen!" That just sounds like a cop out (and I'm not too fond of cop outs, in case I hadn't made that clear already).

[By the way, that also applies to you, Drealmcc0y.]


About the writing on the show in general? I really don't think that could happen, but that would certainly be interesting.

Really, now?
I find discussions like this stimulating (when both sides commit to it, anyway...), no matter the outcome. Coming up with theories or tearing them apart is fun.
But hey, fuck that, I guess? Let's just state our opinions without bothering to explain them (only positive opinions though, or that would be akin to trolling, naturally). "Let go" of brain activity!

HEY EVERYBODY ERIGU POSTED SOMETHING! HE SAID SOMETHING! HE'S SMART! HE HAS GOOD TASTE! HE KNOWS HOW TO DECONSTRUCT THINGS BETTER THAN US! BETTER THAN ANY BLOGGER, TV CRITIC EVER! EVERYONE IS WRONG!


you haven't ever said anything that actually made sense. it's like your brain doesn't want to acknowledge the points we make. so there's already a wall there. no matter what we say we can't convince you that for example, there are plenty of answers on the show and this is how they were presented. you usually retort with "no, that's not it, that was never said" our opinion doesn't matter to you because you don't like that we enjoyed the show and you didn't. you've never wanted to even try to enjoy the show.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Assuming you're right about that, yeah. Are you though?

Apparently. You said it yourself, you don't think you could ever concede about the writing:

About the writing on the show in general? I really don't think that could happen, but that would certainly be interesting.

(only positive opinions though, or that would be akin to trolling, naturally). "Let go" of brain activity!

I never said that. I said I enjoy explaining my opinions, hearing counterpoints, debating, etc. I just don't see the point in doing so with you. I'm happy to with anyone else in this topic, actually.

stuff

This is exactly what I've been trying to call him out on. I'm glad you're also standing up to it.

Still trying to figure out what I want to make my LOST themed tattoo. Eventually I will get one.

Just don't get Jack's lol

The LOSTverse is so large and expansive. I'd love to see a graphic novel of some sort made. Maybe a comic series, I think it would be a great way to tell a new story. One day, it will happen. I sure hope it's good though.

I'm not sure how well Lost's content would come through in any other medium than television, honestly. I'd love to see some "Expanded Universe" type stuff though, maybe several years down the line.

 

[Shorty]

HEY EVERYBODY ERIGU POSTED SOMETHING! HE SAID SOMETHING! HE'S SMART! HE HAS GOOD TASTE! HE KNOWS HOW TO DECONSTRUCT THINGS BETTER THAN US! BETTER THAN ANY BLOGGER, TV CRITIC EVER! EVERYONE IS WRONG!


you haven't ever said anything that actually made sense. it's like your brain doesn't want to acknowledge the points we make. so there's already a wall there. no matter what we say we can't convince you that for example, there are plenty of answers on the show and this is how they were presented. you usually retort with "no, that's not it, that was never said" our opinion doesn't matter to you because you don't like that we enjoyed the show and you didn't. you've never wanted to even try to enjoy the show.

I have noticed that too and it's really fucking annoying.

 

[Erigu]

Christ. I have absolutely had it now.
You won. You broke me.

You make it sound like you never acted like you were absolutely outraged at me before, but I remember some curious fits of raging hypocrisy. Do I need to fetch the posts again?

Me appreciating Kate's backstory is not something I can PROVIDE FUCKING EVIDENCE FOR. IT IS ENTIRELY FUCKING SUBJECTIVE. IT EITHER RESONATES WITH YOU OR IT DOES NOT.

I agree that this kind of thing is subjective, yes.
... But dude, really? Kate's backstory? Really?
It's just fucking hard to take seriously, is what it is. Like glowing reviews of the Twilight series: "all subjective" and hilariously/depressingly surreal.

YOU KEEP TROTTING THIS OUT AS EVIDENCE THAT I DO NOT ENGAGE IN DEBATE WITH YOU.

Like I said above, that one is more of a "whoa, now I've seen everything" kind of deal...

To show that you're not very willing to engage in a debate with me (with actual arguments, examples and all that jazz), I'd link to this spectacular nugget:

I think you're wrong. Pointless? Kate's character arc refutes this. Pretentious? See previous answer. Inconsistent? Shit, please see #1 again. Nonsense? Well, just sitting through a 44 minute episode refutes that hyperbole.

Checkmate! ... Almost!
Naturally, I asked you to elaborate, but you didn't.
(and I wouldn't think that was because it's "all subjective anyway": you were even using words like "refutes")

Also in that same post:

As far as "shat out by writers who didn't give a fuck," of course, there's no proof of that one way or another.

I replied this (where I believe I make a decent argument?).
But like I said above, you just clammed up (save for the occasional dramatic outrage and other cheap shots from the sidelines, 'cause hey: cheap shots are cheap!).

But you play this card like "Oh, no one engages me. No one listens to me. I just get called a bully and then the person runs away." This is just grotesque.

And not quite what I'm saying either.
Obviously, some actually commit to the discussion (at least some of the time... then, there would be evil solrac v3.0, but the guy is in his own league). And I appreciate that.

Maybe you don't think Lilly is a good actress? Competent in selling those moments?

No, I was criticizing the backstory in itself.

Lost worked for me almost exclusively on an emotional level.

That would certainly explain why we can't see eye-to-eye...
Aside from the strictly emotional level though, how well would you say the show holds up?

The thematics of building a community out of disparate and often contentious parties are what appealed to me, much like the a zillion more times more successful Deadwood. I don't really care what fit together or what didn't because in the examination of this theme, the show was unflagging.

Even when the show makes it this big character arc for Jack that he has to lead the crash survivors, only to completely drop that by not even having said leader ask what happened to all those people while he was gone from the island?
Heck, some of the sub-characters' deaths are even treated humorously... "Arzt, Nikki, Paulo, Frogurt, Ilana, haha! We never cared about them anyway!"
And then, some characters don't get to show up at the Magical Church. Because. They're not worthy, I guess.
Hmm.

Hurley, Sawyer, Kate, and Miles were interesting characters throughout the entire show. That was never contradicted.

Dude. If you think you can just claim they were interesting because "fuck you, that's subjective anyway!", how hard do you think it would be to contradict that?

Watch this:
"They weren't interesting to me." (*)

Yeah, about that hard.
So what is that "that was never contradicted" about? What is that even supposed to mean?


(*) For the sake of elaborating at least a bit (because yes, you can actually do that):

* Remember why Hurley spent some time in a mental institution? The show sure forgot about that.
The character very quickly devolved into a cliché "slow, fat geek" character. "Hohoho! Hurley likes food! Oh, that Hurley!" Also: pop culture references.
"Interesting"? I wouldn't go that far.
Oh, there also was a "romance" with a girl who liked him despite him being, you know, not attractive like the others. You could say that was a very short plotline. I've seen people call it "sweet", and I assume that's code for "surprisingly more simplistic than when a show for kids goes there".

* Sawyer is so likeable! He's the Han Solo of Lost! If Han Solo shot Greedo in cold blood as he was on his knees and completely defenseless. Ew.
And in case you're wondering where the character was headed after that, and having murdered an innocent in his life-long quest for vengeance, then finally the actual culprit himself (also defenseless)... well, he went on to fall in love with Juliet, and then he lost her, and that was terrible for a while. What does that have to do with everything that preceded? Nothing, you can forget about that old shit. Who cares? Did you really expect consequences? He was right to kill those fuckers anyway! Those were good, healthy murders. Bummer about the innocent guy, but oh well. The once complete asshole who was exploiting a plane crash for his own gain is now officially a good guy, so you should really look past details like that.
Here again, Lost just drops what should have made for complex issues and just has the character devolve into a simple template: "conman with a heart of gold (likes to give people nicknames)". And here again, how interesting is that? Not very. Morally speaking, it's a bit barf-inducing though.

* Speaking of which: Kate.
Do I really have to...? Can't I just post some links? This and that? Do I have to say more?
I guess there would also be how the character was portrayed as a fairly active one at first, but turned into a whiny angle of the dreadful love triangles/squares/whatever (maybe as the show was getting rid of its competent character writers?). She is just a woman, after all.
But you could say it's "interesting" that she passes for a decent lead female to some.

* Miles... had daddy issues. So that was exciting and fresh territory for the show.
He could hear the dead (which was a very unique ability, except when said ghosts just decided to appear to random people anyway).
He liked money.
...
Fuck, I don't know. Help me, BenjaminBirdie: what is there to say about Miles?

You said it yourself, you don't think you could ever concede about the writing

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, but when I said "I really don't think it could happen", I was replying to "are you maybe secretly hoping someone comes in here and proves you wrong to your satisfaction?"
Does that mean I don't I could ever concede about the writing because I'm just incapable of that? No. It means I don't think someone could prove me wrong about that particular matter (meaning I wouldn't have to concede). Like I said, it would certainly be interesting if that were to happen. But I'm definitely not holding my breath, at this point.

I said I enjoy explaining my opinions, hearing counterpoints, debating, etc. I just don't see the point in doing so with you.

Yeah, because I'm simply incapable of conceding anything, according to you. Sure, that's a cheap allegation, but at least, it gets you out of this discussion so you won't have to sidestep the issue once again when I ask you how/when Ben redeemed himself...

I have noticed that too and it's really fucking annoying.

There's a difference between acknowledging and agreeing.
Would you say I ignored the points you were making in our recent discussion? Could you show me some examples? I'd be more than happy to correct that.


Aaaaand a quick look at the latest effort of the always reliable evil solrac v3.0:

the points we make

"We"?
When was the last time you tried to make a point about the show, again? How often does that happen?
And yet, how many posts do you have in this topic?

Simply put: you're the worst, evil solrac v3.0. Keep it up, I guess!

 

[Deleted member 12837]

It means I don't think someone could prove me wrong about that particular matter (meaning I wouldn't have to concede). Like I said, it would certainly be interesting if that were to happen. But I'm definitely not holding my breath, at this point.

This is what I meant. If you don't think someone could prove you wrong about that particular matter, why continue to bring it up over and over again if everyone here, in your opinion, can't put up an argument to make you concede?

Yeah, because I'm simply incapable of conceding anything, according to you. Sure, that's a cheap allegation, but at least, it gets you out of this discussion so you won't have to sidestep the issue once again when I ask you how/when Ben redeemed himself...

Is that supposed to make me feel bad about it or something? I'm not denying that I'm sidestepping the issue...getting out of that discussion with you was exactly what I was trying to do, like I've said the past few posts. What exactly do I have to gain by answering your question? You'll either disagree with my explanation, or disagree with it AND say it's ridiculous. I don't hold any hope of changing your perspective on Ben's redemption or lack thereof.

 

[disappeared]

Well, my mom lent me her complete collection she got for christmas last year. I think I'm finally going to start my first re-watch. Pilot is a go!

 

[Erigu]

If you don't think someone could prove you wrong about that particular matter, why continue to bring it up over and over again if everyone here, in your opinion, can't put up an argument to make you concede?

Like I said, I'm really not expecting that to happen, anyway...
But how does my being confident regarding this particular matter mean that I should just drop the discussion?
Does that work both ways? Those who are confident that Lost was a great, well-written show have no reason to take part in discussions and defend it from what they consider unwarranted criticism?
I don't see how that makes any kind of sense, sorry. Or nobody should ever try to convince anybody of anything. Is that a principle you follow?

Is that supposed to make me feel bad about it or something? I'm not denying that I'm sidestepping the issue...getting out of that discussion with you was exactly what I was trying to do, like I've said the past few posts. What exactly do I have to gain by answering your question? You'll either disagree with my explanation, or disagree with it AND say it's ridiculous.

Rather than stepping up and actually explaining how/when Ben redeemed himself according to you, you decided to claim that you would have answered if only I weren't terminally close-minded.
That's a lazy cop out with a gratuitous allegation on top.
You don't see why you should feel bad about that? Well, I guess you don't have anything to lose by going there, in that case, indeed...

 

[BuggyDClown]

Well, my mom lent me her complete collection she got for christmas last year. I think I'm finally going to start my first re-watch. Pilot is a go!

Rewatches get better every time. Outside of the original airing, this is my 16th viewing and has been the best. 2 more episodes to watch tonight then only 8 left in the series. So excited.

Just don't get Jack's lol



I'm not sure how well Lost's content would come through in any other medium than television, honestly. I'd love to see some "Expanded Universe" type stuff though, maybe several years down the line.

Hah no not jacks.

I think it could work in comic form. Now let me say I have never read a comic in my life outside of the few FRINGE ones. ALthough I think based off those they could add a lot to widmore v ben. The post island story with hurley and ben, or the pre lost story or DHARMA. Plenty we can explore with that medium, and really delve deep into the fantasy aspect and not have to concede to going too far with scifi or fantasy because it's not on TV.

I just want more.

 

[oatmeal]

Erigu, how do you grab posts so quickly?

NeoGAF's search isn't good enough for that. You have to have something written down right?

It's mind boggling how quick you're able to do it.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Like I said, I'm really not expecting that to happen, anyway...
But how does my being confident regarding this particular matter mean that I should just drop the discussion?
Does that work both ways? Those who are confident that Lost was a great, well-written show have no reason to take part in discussions and defend it from what they consider unwarranted criticism?
I don't see how that makes any kind of sense, sorry. Or nobody should ever try to convince anybody of anything. Is that a principle you follow?

No that's not a principle I follow. You've tried to convince us. The people that agree with you have agreed. The people that disagree, still disagree. Time to move onto something new. You should drop the discussion because it's fruitless. I'd say the same thing if the situation were reversed, and this were a thread full of people like you, and there was one guy trying to defend the hell out of Lost, it's writing, the characters, the writers, etc, and he wasn't getting anywhere because no one was being receptive.

In a nutshell:

You've made your point to this thread. Clearly, the vast majority (not all though) of the people in here don't agree with you, and you're not going to convince them of anything. On the flipside, they're not going to convince you of anything either. But at least they're also discussing other things with each other about Lost that are totally separate from the now tired "hack writers, plot holes, etc" arguments you keep bringing up. You're sort of just yelling at a wall at this point. Do you not feel that way?

That's a lazy cop out.

Sorry.

You don't see why you should feel bad about that?

Not only do I not see why I should feel bad, I don't feel bad.

I think it could work in comic form. Now let me say I have never read a comic in my life outside of the few FRINGE ones. ALthough I think based off those they could add a lot to widmore v ben. The post island story with hurley and ben, or the pre lost story or DHARMA. Plenty we can explore with that medium, and really delve deep into the fantasy aspect and not have to concede to going too far with scifi or fantasy because it's not on TV.

I'm torn about wanting to know more about the Island's past. They told about as much as we needed to know about its history for the current story to work, but if they started a brand new saga surrounding characters from the time the cork was put in place, that could be kind of cool.

I think I'm probably most interested in The Others, especially their time during Widmore's stint as leader.

 

[Erigu]

Erigu, how do you grab posts so quickly?

Google ("neogaf" "lost" "[author name]" [some not-too-common word or expression I remember from the post]").

You've tried to convince us. The people that agree with you have agreed. The people that disagree, still disagree.

Hey, there are always newcomers, or regulars who missed / skipped previous posts. ;p
And while I'll admit some subjects or examples reappear periodically, new ones show up every now and then...

Clearly, the vast majority (not all though) of the people in here don't agree with you, and you're not going to convince them of anything. On the flipside, they're not going to convince you of anything either.

It doesn't seem likely, anyway... But like said earlier, I still find discussing stuff like that stimulating.

But at least they're also discussing other things with each other about Lost that are totally separate from the now tired "hack writers, plot holes, etc" arguments you keep bringing up.

... Okay? Why "but at least" though?

Not only do I not see why I should feel bad, I don't feel bad.

Not sure that's really more remarkable, but yeah, I saw that. "Is that supposed to make me feel bad about it or something?" made it pretty clear.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Rewatches get better every time. Outside of the original airing, this is my 16th viewing and has been the best. 2 more episodes to watch tonight then only 8 left in the series. So excited.

As someone who clearly knows the show inside out like me and loves it.

What issues do you have with the show?

Whether that be plot holes, episodes etc

 

[nomis]

By the time season 6 rolled around, the fact that Bram helped carry a dead John Locke across the island to show to Richard who they were dealing with in fake Locke, and, then incredibly, would ask flocke who the hell he was, well, I just let it wash over me in a wave of indifference.

Perhaps Bram is just really, really, really thick.

You won. You broke me.

Me appreciating Kate's backstory is not something I can PROVIDE FUCKING EVIDENCE FOR. IT IS ENTIRELY FUCKING SUBJECTIVE. IT EITHER RESONATES WITH YOU OR IT DOES NOT. YOU KEEP TROTTING THIS OUT AS EVIDENCE THAT I DO NOT ENGAGE IN DEBATE WITH YOU. THIS IS A LIE. YOU CANNOT ENGAGE IN BACK AND FORTH ABOUT THE SUBJECTIVE.

You enjoyed something? Prove it.

 

[Catalix]

We were talking about how Jacob was being portrayed by the show after his first actual appearance.
Here's a guy who carries... a lot? ... most? .... virtually all? of the blame for all the drama and death on the show, and all the characters have to say about that after a good night's sleep is that the guy was "worse than Yoda". Huh.
I may be going on a limb, here, but I think the show wasn't really interested in portraying him in a negative light, at that point. Might also have something to do with all the subtle symbolism the show is known for (he's dressed in white! whereas his brother is dressed in black and evil!).

I've lightly touched on this exact same point before, but now that you've brought it up again, I'll just go ahead and fully express my feelings on the matter. I often have a hard time explaining my thoughts, so bear with me. I need to vent because, in the end, this was one of the things I found the most genuinely upsetting about the show's final resolution.

To put it simply, "What They Died For" should've been Jacob's judgement day. It was a chance to either redeem the character's questionable actions, or hold him sternly accountable for his sins. Instead, the writers handled this potentially heavy topic in such a limp-wristed manner. It's like they couldn't bear to portray their beloved "noble figure" in a genuinely unfavorable light.

The first time I was watching the episode, at the start of the camp fire scene, my heart was racing. Kate wasted no time in confronting Jacob on his toxic bullshit.

KATE: Is that why they're dead?
JACOB: I'm very sorry.
KATE: You're sorry?
HURLEY: Kate.
KATE: No, I wanna know why. I wanna know that Sun and Jin and Sayid didn't die for nothing.

In that moment, Kate's usually annoying self-righteousness became the most useful attribute in the world. The balls on this chick. Jacob truly has some fucking nerve. Every single one of those Island castaways had a right to be livid. So much pain, so much struggle, all for what? He needed to answer for his crimes. So yeah, for that brief moment, GO KATE.

But then, the scene fell apart rather quickly:

SAWYER: Tell me something, Jacob. Why do I gotta be punished for your mistake?
What made you think you could mess with my life?
I was doin' just fine til you dragged my ass to this damn rock.

JACOB: No, you weren't (What a comeback!). None of you were. I didn't pluck any of you out of a happy existence.
You were all flawed. I chose you because you were like me. You were all alone.
You were all looking for something that you couldn't find out there.
I chose you because you needed this place as much as it needed you.

And from that point on, the Lostie's collective response was pretty much:

Are you fucking kidding me??? They're totally cool with that hippie bullshit justification. He directly played a part in ruining your lives (without your knowledge!), don't just roll over and accept his nonsense! This asshole didn't even answer the root of the initial question: "Why did we HAVE to suffer all these years for your transgression, and why did our friends HAVE to die such needlessly brutal deaths?"

Then it just gets downright insulting. "It's just chalk on a wall, Kate." He's basically saying his little "game" didn't really matter much anyway. So flippant, so condescending. But apparently everything's all good now.

Look, we all know Jacob's a colossal idiot. That's a well-documented fact. Hey, I can honestly deal with that notion. What I'm not cool with was the show's need to keep him as a wholly sympathetic figurehead. He's pathetic, and Jack, Kate Hurley and Sawyer should have followed through on properly nailing this douche to the wall. And since this Losties vs. Jacob confrontation was such an integral part of the story's resolution, it magnifies my disappointment 10-fold. That scene is definitely where LOST finally lost me, at least when it comes to asking myself the honest question, "Was the struggle and misery these characters experienced truly worth it?" Sadly, no, the journey was largely hollow. As a hardcore fan, that hurts a little to say.

 

[Erigu]

I think I mentioned that earlier, but one of the things that amuse me the most about that scene is how much worse / more jarring it would have been had Sayid not exploded in that sub right before.

JACOB: I didn't pluck any of you out of a happy existence. You were all flawed. I chose you because you were like me. You were all alone. You were all looking for...
SAYID: Wait, wait a second. I know you.
JACOB: ... I don't think that's...
SAYID: I know you.
JACOB: *nervous laugh*

Awkwa~rd!

Amusingly, Jin and Sun were doing fine as well, back when Jacob picked them (*). Oh, and they died along with Sayid! What about that.

Wouldn't it be funny if that were "what they died for"?


(*)
Guess we could add the Jacob flashbacks to that list of elements from the season 5 finale that ended up not jibing with season 6. Weird, considering the writers totally knew where they were going with all that.

 

[Treefingers]

@Catalix agreed 100% about that scene. It was a huge disappointment for me. At least the rest of the episode helped soften the blow.

 

[bigboss370]

Still trying to figure out what I want to make my LOST themed tattoo. Eventually I will get one.

Just finished sundown. Only 10 episodes left. My cousin is loving the series, its so awesome. Really will never be another series like it ever again. I'm desperately awaiting an announcement of some sort of continuation of the series.

The LOSTverse is so large and expansive. I'd love to see a graphic novel of some sort made. Maybe a comic series, I think it would be a great way to tell a new story. One day, it will happen. I sure hope it's good though.

So sad this rewatch is about to come to an end though. That means I get to start planning my fall/winter rewatch.

i would be happy if they wrote a book or series of books continuing Lost, since i'm certain another tv series won't happen , and if it will it won't live up to my expectations.

for your tattoo are you thinking of an image or words?

 

[Catalix]

Amusingly, Jin and Sun were doing fine as well, back when Jacob picked them (*). Oh, and they died along with Sayid! What about that.

Wouldn't it be funny if that were "what they died for"?

But they had an unhappy marriage, Jacob was only trying to SAVE them... by allowing his evil incarnate smoke brother to terrorize them in numerous deadly situations, then letting their lungs slowly fill with cold agonizing sea water in a claustrophobic space. But hey, they learned some kind of ultra transformative life lesson in the process. A lesson they could apply if they still had a life. Good for them, totally worth it. Thanks, Jacob.

And I'd give anything for a director's cut of that Sayid scene. Fucking classic.

The deeper you examine the entire situation, the worse it gets. It's supposedly "All about the characters," but most of these motivations or behaviors don't make a whole lot of sense. Unacceptable resolution, on every level.

@Catalix agreed 100% about that scene. It was a huge disappointment for me. At least the rest of the episode helped soften the blow.

Right on. The farther we got away from that scene, the better. The Losties let me down there, but I still couldn't wait to see how they wrapped it all up. Jack embracing his destiny (as Jacob-tainted as it was) hit me on a visceral level.

 

[Erigu]

their lungs slowly fill with cold agonizing sea water in a claustrophobic space.

Speaking of which, it's too bad ghost-child-Jacob didn't show up even just a couple of days earlier, huh? He could have briefed them before they had this wonderful idea of going ahead with Barry's plan, and that would have saved a few lives. Maybe it was a ghost-school day.

Speaking of which again, wasn't the prevailing theory that the "KWON" candidate was Jin, and that was why the name hadn't been crossed out like Kate's (dads who haven't met their kids don't count! see also: Sawyer), and why Sun didn't end up in 1977 along with the others? (yeah, Kate did, but shut up)
'Cause Jin sure managed to kill himself. Maybe Jack just got really, really lucky, with that dynamite?

This show...

 

[Blader]

I've lightly touched on this exact same point before, but now that you've brought it up again, I'll just go ahead and fully express my feelings on the matter. I often have a hard time explaining my thoughts, so bear with me. I need to vent because, in the end, this was one of the things I found the most genuinely upsetting about the show's final resolution.

To put it simply, "What They Died For" should've been Jacob's judgement day. It was a chance to either redeem the character's questionable actions, or hold him sternly accountable for his sins. Instead, the writers handled this potentially heavy topic in such a limp-wristed manner. It's like they couldn't bear to portray their beloved "noble figure" in a genuinely unfavorable light.

The first time I was watching the episode, at the start of the camp fire scene, my heart was racing. Kate wasted no time in confronting Jacob on his toxic bullshit.

KATE: Is that why they're dead?
JACOB: I'm very sorry.
KATE: You're sorry?
HURLEY: Kate.
KATE: No, I wanna know why. I wanna know that Sun and Jin and Sayid didn't die for nothing.

In that moment, Kate's usually annoying self-righteousness became the most useful attribute in the world. The balls on this chick. Jacob truly has some fucking nerve. Every single one of those Island castaways had a right to be livid. So much pain, so much struggle, all for what? He needed to answer for his crimes. So yeah, for that brief moment, GO KATE.

But then, the scene fell apart rather quickly:

SAWYER: Tell me something, Jacob. Why do I gotta be punished for your mistake?
What made you think you could mess with my life?
I was doin' just fine til you dragged my ass to this damn rock.

JACOB: No, you weren't (What a comeback!). None of you were. I didn't pluck any of you out of a happy existence.
You were all flawed. I chose you because you were like me. You were all alone.
You were all looking for something that you couldn't find out there.
I chose you because you needed this place as much as it needed you.

And from that point on, the Lostie's collective response was pretty much:

Are you fucking kidding me??? They're totally cool with that hippie bullshit justification. He directly played a part in ruining your lives (without your knowledge!), don't just roll over and accept his nonsense! This asshole didn't even answer the root of the initial question: "Why did we HAVE to suffer all these years for your transgression, and why did our friends HAVE to die such needlessly brutal deaths?"

Then it just gets downright insulting. "It's just chalk on a wall, Kate." He's basically saying his little "game" didn't really matter much anyway. So flippant, so condescending. But apparently everything's all good now.

Look, we all know Jacob's a colossal idiot. That's a well-documented fact. Hey, I can honestly deal with that notion. What I'm not cool with was the show's need to keep him as a wholly sympathetic figurehead. He's pathetic, and Jack, Kate Hurley and Sawyer should have followed through on properly nailing this douche to the wall. And since this Losties vs. Jacob confrontation was such an integral part of the story's resolution, it magnifies my disappointment 10-fold. That scene is definitely where LOST finally lost me, at least when it comes to asking myself the honest question, "Was the struggle and misery these characters experienced truly worth it?" Sadly, no, the journey was largely hollow. As a hardcore fan, that hurts a little to say.

At the end of the day, I suppose it boils down to how palatable you find the idea of living a long albeit miserable life vs. the chance at a happier albeit (likely) shorter life.

You may not like Jacob's rationale behind why he chooses who he chooses to come to the island (and obviously you don't :lol). But he's not really wrong. No one was living the sweet life before they came to the island, they all had their own shit that they wouldn't/couldn't deal with. And the reason they don't put up a fight is because they know he's right. Hurley thought his life was cursed, Sawyer was chasing a boogeyman (that he only found because of the island), crashing on the island actually helped Kate, and Jack got a chance to put his messiah complex to the ultimate test.

I mean, the whole show, from day fucking one, was always about these fucked up people getting a chance to deal with their shit in a new, remote setting. It's not like it was some bombshell revelation we learned at the 11th hour.

Now, me, personally, I would rather live a long miserable life than getting a shot to work things that had a 99% chance of being killed for it. But within the context of the show, and knowing what it was always about, I don't really see the big betrayal here that you do.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

I've just been popping in this thread every once in a while and this Erigu guy seems like his existence is nothing more than being wrapped around his chair plopped in front of Lost sites to troll anyone who has something positive to say. Seriously guy... why cry about this shit? People like it. Civil discussion is one thing. But what you're doing is unhealthy. You need help. If I'm ever fused with my furniture battling that hard because I don't like something as much as the people who want to discuss it do, please end me.

Had to say something. Guy is unbelievable and I'm not ashamed to drop to this level to say it.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Speaking of which, it's too bad ghost-child-Jacob didn't show up even just a couple of days earlier, huh? He could have briefed them before they had this wonderful idea of going ahead with Barry's plan, and that would have saved a few lives. Maybe it was a ghost-school day.

Speaking of which again, wasn't the prevailing theory that the "KWON" candidate was Jin, and that was why the name hadn't been crossed out like Kate's (dads who haven't met their kids don't count! see also: Sawyer), and why Sun didn't end up in 1977 along with the others? (yeah, Kate did, but shut up)
'Cause Jin sure managed to kill himself. Maybe Jack just got really, really lucky, with that dynamite?

This show...

It may be unfortunate that the island was a deus ex machina, but it was written that way on purpose. I truly believe that what you saw and what you're debating aren't necessarily truths. Meaning things are playing out the way the island wants it to even if it doesn't make sense. Could be viewed as cheap. Could be viewed as great especially if people don't understand or refuse to accept it.

 

[Erigu]

this Erigu guy seems like his existence is nothing more than being wrapped around his chair plopped in front of Lost sites to troll anyone who has something positive to say.

Well, yeah, naturally. I mean, if my life didn't revolve exclusively around that, you would know, right?

Seriously guy... why cry about this shit?

Hahahaha!

It may be unfortunate that the island was a deus ex machina, but it was written that way on purpose.

You just excused pretty much all bad plots in existence. Nice work! You can get some rest, now, you deserve it.

things are playing out the way the island wants it to even if it doesn't make sense.

As usual, replace "the island" with "the writers", and...

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Well, yeah, naturally. I mean, if my life didn't revolve exclusively around that, you would know, right?


Hahahaha!


You just excused pretty much all bad plots in existence. Nice work! You can get some rest, now, you deserve it.

Its called stooping to a low level. I don't care who you really are. Just want to heckle a heckler on a more primitive level.

But seriously. I think you're focusing way too much on plot holes that the writers are fully aware of. You need to ask yourself if there is something else there. I'll come back tomorrow with a theory that you can dispute to your hearts content. But it might dispell some of your nitpicks.

 

[Erigu]

I think you're focusing way too much on plot holes that the writers are fully aware of.

Does it matter whether or not the writers are fully aware of those plot holes?
(not that I believe they necessarily are, mind you)

I'll come back tomorrow with a theory that you can dispute to your hearts content. But it might dispell some of your nitpicks.

Looking forward to it.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Well, yeah, naturally. I mean, if my life didn't revolve exclusively around that, you would know, right?


Hahahaha!


You just excused pretty much all bad plots in existence. Nice work! You can get some rest, now, you deserve it.


As usual, replace "the island" with "the writers", and...

Like I said, it is unfortunate but intentional. The writers weren't lazy, they came up with some interesting character dilemmas within a fucked up pseudo reality. Perhaps the distorted nature of things were emotions becoming projected? Whatever the answer, I don't really care. I appreciate the unexplained. People see what THEY needed to see, not the viewers.

 

[Erigu]

Like I said, it is unfortunate but intentional. The writers weren't lazy

They were lazy, careless, pretentious and dishonest.
That being said, maybe they also have some hidden qualities. Maybe they like cats.

But never mind that for now: simply arguing that they were fully aware of the plot holes and did it all "on purpose" so it's fine (???) is akin to giving them a universal free pass. Basically, they can do no wrong, if you go there.

Perhaps the distorted nature of things were emotions becoming projected?

Same thing as above, except you're now also using the presence of fantastical elements as an excuse for... well, anything. Whenever something doesn't make sense: "hey, maybe it's because their minds are altering reality or some shit! why not?"

Whatever the answer, I don't really care. I appreciate the unexplained. People see what THEY needed to see, not the viewers.

I hear inspecting the liver of a sacrificed animal produces the same effect.

 

[Dany]

Viewers of the show were too dependent on the unknown and questions that the simple ability for ambiguity in the show became difficult for the creators to create.

 

[Catalix]

At the end of the day, I suppose it boils down to how palatable you find the idea of living a long albeit miserable life vs. the chance at a happier albeit (likely) shorter life.

Detached from Jacob's believability as a character, that's definitely a worthy concept to explore.

You may not like Jacob's rationale behind why he chooses who he chooses to come to the island (and obviously you don't :lol). But he's not really wrong. No one was living the sweet life before they came to the island, they all had their own shit that they wouldn't/couldn't deal with. And the reason they don't put up a fight is because they know he's right. Hurley thought his life was cursed, Sawyer was chasing a boogeyman (that he only found because of the island), crashing on the island actually helped Kate, and Jack got a chance to put his messiah complex to the ultimate test.

Jacob was wrong, and his methods weren't logical at all. The hardships he put the characters through were not proportionate to the flaws that they initially dealt with (well, most of them, anyway). And on a few occasions, he directly facilitated those very same vices (handing James the pen to finish his revenge note, for example) Also, I got beef with this disingenuous gem:

JACOB: I'm not going to pick, Hugo. I want you to have the one thing that I was never given--a choice.

A "choice" that he manipulated them into choosing. He's groomed most of them without their consent over the course of their lives. And now - after a contrived, janky temporary resurrection - he waits until the last minute to drop some serious bombs. Keep in mind, absolutely nothing was preventing him from revealing these truths beforehand. He chose to be unnecessarily obtuse, making it 10x more difficult for everyone involved (including himself!). The end of the world is at stake. Choose now, or else!

If giving his candidates a choice was really one of his top priorities, wouldn't it be more sensible to visit each one of them off-Island and give them a proposition, similar to Dogen, or Hurley in the cab. Most of them never even remotely contracted to this hellish job interview in the first place. And when the time came, 3/4 of his final candidates didn't even want the goddam job. What the hell kind of tactics are these? He had no right, and the Losties should've definitely made a bigger deal about it. I don't like how the show continued to present him as a "misunderstood good guy", as if his hands were tied in the matter.

I mean, the whole show, from day fucking one, was always about these fucked up people getting a chance to deal with their shit in a new, remote setting. It's not like it was some bombshell revelation we learned at the 11th hour.

Now, me, personally, I would rather live a long miserable life than getting a shot to work things that had a 99% chance of being killed for it. But within the context of the show, and knowing what it was always about, I don't really see the big betrayal here that you do.

And that's exactly one of the things I love about the show. Believe me, I do! Tabula Rasa. The characters getting a second chance to "fix" themselves and each other is a main theme that carries a ton of weight.

But now I know that all of their genuine struggle was manufactured for an unworthy cause. My gripe is this: if you're going to hang your entire narrative around the concept of "A-man-with-a-plan," I would hope that the plan itself is pretty darn clever. Jacob's motivations are critical to the overall story's resonance. If his actions don't even make sense on a basic level, or his ideals don't pack an intellectual punch, then everything else in the story suffers.

In order for me to accept Jacob's methods, I have to believe that he's literally mentally handicapped. I'd be fine with that, and it's a convenient explanation, but LOST never led me to believe that he seriously suffered from such a condition. And being an emotionally stunted 2000 year old manchild is not really a compelling excuse for me; not after all the retarded shit the writers decided to pin on his shoulders. So I'm left with this broken character and a distractingly broken story. It stings!

 

[Catalix]

heh, poor Jacob. It seems my hate for him knows no bounds!

Now I know how Solo must've felt about Jack this entire time lol

 

[Erigu]

If giving his candidates a choice was really one of his top priorities, wouldn't it be more sensible to visit each one of them off-Island and give them a proposition, similar to Dogen, or Hurley in the cab. Most of them never even remotely contracted to this hellish job interview in the first place. And when the time came, 3/4 of his final candidates didn't even want the goddam job. What the hell kind of tactics are these?

And Locke would have signed up right away, too...

My gripe is this: if you're going to hang your entire narrative around the concept of "A-man-with-a-plan," I would hope that the plan itself is pretty darn clever.

Exactly.

In order for me to accept Jacob's methods, I have to believe that he's literally mentally handicapped. I'd be fine with that, and it's a convenient explanation, but LOST never led me to believe that he seriously suffered from such a condition.

On the contrary: the guy is portrayed as wise (the casting call also says as much). And what a joke that is.

 

[Catalix]

On the contrary: the guy is portrayed as wise (the casting call also says as much). And what a joke that is.

Holy crap, I haven't read that since season 5! "wise" "straightforward" hahaha I'm dying here.

touché

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Catalix the show makes it pretty clear that their is no great pure evil or pure goodness.

Jacob done some bad things for sure.

Well.... blader explains it better than me.

 

[Erigu]

Catalix the show makes it pretty clear that their is no great pure evil or pure goodness.

It's all great pure stupidity in the end!
Dude. The show is Manichean as hell. There's even a sickness that makes you Evil (until someone gives you a speech about Luv).

 

[Drealmcc0y]

It's all great pure stupidity in the end!
Dude. The show is Manichean as hell. There's even a sickness that makes you Evil (until someone gives you a speech about Luv).

I like it

Edit: As soon as I pressed the submit button I wished I didnt say anything

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Edit: As soon as I pressed the submit button I wished I didnt say anything

Yeah, I finally turned the Ignore Key.

White light. End season.

 

[dave is ok]

This thread would suck without Erigu

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

This thread would suck without Erigu

I'm a big fan of it now.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

They were lazy, careless, pretentious and dishonest.
That being said, maybe they also have some hidden qualities. Maybe they like cats.

But never mind that for now: simply arguing that they were fully aware of the plot holes and did it all "on purpose" so it's fine (???) is akin to giving them a universal free pass. Basically, they can do no wrong, if you go there.


Same thing as above, except you're now also using the presence of fantastical elements as an excuse for... well, anything. Whenever something doesn't make sense: "hey, maybe it's because their minds are altering reality or some shit! why not?"


I hear inspecting the liver of a sacrificed animal produces the same effect.

But the thing is, you're placing such a grand importance on the mythological and scientific plot points and the holes within them when I'm saying perhaps the writers purposely create those holes to show that they aren't meant to be perceived as truths. I'll expand on it more when I'm home from work and not on my auto correcting phone that annoys me to no end with its "corrections".

 

[Drealmcc0y]

But the thing is, you're placing such a grand importance on the mythological and scientific plot points and the holes within them when I'm saying perhaps the writers purposely create those holes to show that they aren't meant to be perceived as truths.

Ugh why did you say that?

Erigu is in the process of writing 5 paragraphs on this as we speak.

 

[Phatcorns]

Hate to interrupt this shit storm of a thread, but does anyone know if there is video of this year's Lost comic con panel?