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[Kyleripman]

Oh btw anyone interested in my LOST power hour I'm finishing up. It's like a Power hour playlist but with clips. My 60 top 1min moments of LOST, take a shot of beer at each change of the clips. It takes you from the beginning to the end of the series.

I suppose I can upload it online somewhere when it's done.

Would love this.

 

[Erigu]

That i09 piece is excellent, by the way.

I find it a bit odd that they'd have wanted to actually see what Barry's escape would cause (I guess they're going at it from the "show, don't tell" angle, but it seems a bit hard to shoehorn in the show... unless you use the flashsideways for that, and I believe some viewers theorized that was the idea, at some point, but I'm not sure how to make that one work exactly), but the "clear, meaningful stakes" bit? Can't agree more.

It's bad enough that the showrunners decided to downsize the plot to some simplistic-yet-conveniently-vague conflict between two newly-introduced characters, they could at least have bothered to come up with clear stakes for that last season, indeed. When you have a bunch of characters "in-the-know" (because they've been "told everything they needed to know", or "training for that their entire life") who are so dead set on stopping Barry in his tracks, it's downright ridiculous that they would never share the knowledge with the protagonists at some point before the end of the show.
But then again, when one of them is about to finally explain explain but gets cut short mid-sentence because she comically drops a bag of dynamite and exits stage left in a gratuitous explosion, it's hard not to see that the writers themselves don't know, don't care to come up with something, and actually find this rather amusing. We're past "carelessness" and well into "contempt", like that article Catalix linked to earlier said.

Said article has some nice comments, by the way, from what I've read so far. I liked Kahner's point about how science fiction doesn't have to be nonsense, for example, as that's an excuse I've seen quite a bit, and not just from fans either...

we've discussed this show for six years erigu. we have debated and gotten angry at each other and every other emotion. it's over.

I think the idea that shows shouldn't be discussed once they're over is BS and mostly sounds a lot like a cop out excuse to dismiss criticism, but if you actually believe that, why even reply, then?
The way I see it, either you want to debate the merits of the show or you don't. If you don't, there really is no need for you to intervene. And if you do, you should try and do that somewhat properly.

berating the fans of a show doesn't make you right.

I'm mocking the show itself, and while that in itself doesn't magically make me right (naturally), I would think my providing some precise arguments is another matter.

I criticize my interlocutors when they resort to cop outs or personal attacks. I know I'm not above criticism myself regarding the latter (I find it hard to lose sleep over calling MoonsaultSlayer a moron for his straw man arguments when the guy readily admits he's trying to be a dick, but that wasn't my finest moment), but I've gotten so much more of those than I dished out it's not even funny.
(And while I appreciate the fact that your latest posts diverge a bit from the usual one-sentence personal attacks you've been gracing this topic with for months, you might just be the least qualified person around here to lecture me about that, evil solrac v3.0.)

we all got some enjoyment out of it because of compelling drama, interesting situations and characters and just a well written show. erigu is the classic definition of a contrarian.

Or maybe you need to watch (or read) better stuff. Lost wasn't even close to being well written. It was pointless, pretentious, nonsensical trash.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

You make the mistake that lost is the only thing people in this thread know and enjoy. Don't assume people aren't aware that there is deeper stuff out there. Its a great show to many of us. Quit acting like its a wrong opinion FFS.

And I'm all for debate. But when you bash people or spill hatred on the screen, you make it irritating and not thought provoking no matter how vast your knowledge is of the show.

 

[Erigu]

You make the mistake that lost is the only thing people in this thread know and enjoy.

... the fuck?

Don't assume people aren't aware that there is deeper stuff out there.

I'm not assuming anything: I'm seeing someone call Lost "well written", and I'm commenting on that.
(and there would also be a bunch of "best show ever!"s... but I know better than to assume all Lost fans share that opinion, don't worry...)

I'm all for debate.

Cool, let's go back to where we left it, then: what's the point of an insignificant flashback?

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

... the fuck?


I'm not assuming anything: I'm seeing someone call Lost "well written", and I'm commenting on that.
(and there would also be a bunch of "best show ever!"s... but I know better than to assume all Lost fans share that opinion, don't worry...)


Cool, let's go back to where we left it, then: what's the point of an insignificant flashback?

Telling someone they need to look into better mediums because their opinion doesn't match yours qualifies as assuming they don't know anything better. Do you realize how vast and varied this shows demographic is? But to you, they're all pathetic for enjoying such an inferior show compared to your favs.

I not going to waste time trying to debate with you. You can cry cop out or what the hell ever all you want but you simply don't get why no one wants to talk to you and gives up. You're thick headed and narrow minded. We all get that you dislike the show and do have some valid points... but you're not going to convert anyone so your campaign here is futile.

To answer your stupid question... we see jack outside of his typical doctor and father issues flashback in a more exotic locale with an unexpected plot. I've only seen the ep once so I forgot details but I liked it for its change of pace and seeing a different side of jack.

 

[oatmeal]

Erigu, do you play games too?

What games do you like?

I'm a Zelda fan...and Halo...and MLB The Show.

Are you a Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo/PC fan?

 

[Erigu]

to you, they're all pathetic for enjoying such an inferior show compared to your favs.

"Wrong about this particular matter" will suffice. Lost isn't well written.

I not going to waste time trying to debate with you. You can cry cop out or what the hell ever all you want

I believe you just saved me the trouble.

Ah, wait!
EDIT:

we see jack outside of his typical doctor and father issues flashback in a more exotic locale with an unexpected plot.

You have yet to explain what was good about that particular plot, but then again, you pretty much painted yourself into a corner when you admitted it was insignificant...

Erigu, do you play games too?

Sure, but that seems quite off-topic...

 

[oatmeal]

OT maybe, but this is the LOST |OT|, OT stands for Off-Topic.

Like it or not you're part of the LOST community now. What's wrong with me wanting to get to know another poster?

I don't mean anything malicious by it.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

"Wrong about this particular matter" will suffice. Lost isn't well written.


I believe you just saved me the trouble.

Ah, wait!
EDIT:

You have yet to explain what was good about that particular plot, but then again, you pretty much painted yourself into a corner when you admitted it was insignificant...



Sure, but that seems quite off-topic...

Your original question was "Did it help the show any?" referring to the tattoo being given meaning. My answer was yes, because it gave us a look at another side of this character who we've only scene the stiff doctor, reluctant hero, bad husband/father and issues with daddy side before. Here we saw something a bit more positive for him for a while.

How does it help the show? Well only a fan would accept that it provided insight, no matter how insignicant, into one of the main characters as an answer. Someone expecting the world from a tv show just because its popular isn't going to care. You don't like the plot points and characters to begin with, quit pretending you're looking for answers in an innocent manner.

Most movies and tv shows would hide an actors real tats in case they conflicted with the character. Some people not knowing the actor would see the tat and wonder how it relates to the character assuming it was part of the show. That's a fault with dramas, everything has to have a meaning or reason. If a hospital show featured stiff, old man head doctor guy who gets a shirtless scene at the gym which reveals a tat, the audience will get a sense of history for that character. "So he wasn't always a douche?"

So that's why meaning was created and we see jack in a different light. Expect every little thing to be some crazy plot device?

On a side note... let me ask you this, Erigu: why do you feel lost is popular. A real answer please.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Does Erigu sleep?

 

[Erigu]

How does it help the show? Well only a fan would accept that it provided insight, no matter how insignicant, into one of the main characters as an answer.

I don't think we agree about the meaning of the word "insignificant"... If it actually provides insight, I wouldn't call it "insignificant".
So, what insight was provided?

Someone expecting the world from a tv show just because its popular

Wut.
I would have liked decent writing. That's not "the world".
And if something had an influence on my expectations, it would be what the show sets out to accomplish / what the writers promise to deliver. Not the popularity. That's another matter.

You don't like the plot points and characters to begin with, quit pretending you're looking for answers in an innocent manner.

"We know you don't like the show, so quit pretending you're intellectually honest, damnit!"
Dude, really?

Some people not knowing the actor would see the tat and wonder how it relates to the character assuming it was part of the show.

Unless the show made it a point to focus on it, I would first wonder if it's supposed to be significant...

That's a fault with dramas, everything has to have a meaning or reason.

Or the actor had tattoos, and they didn't feel like covering that shit up again and again, possibly for years... It's not like those things are that uncommon anyway.
And if you really feel a surgeon shouldn't have tattoos, you can always explain them with a throw-away line. But if you want to use an entire episode on that, you'd better come up with a good idea and a relevant plot. Well, whoopsie.

why do you feel lost is popular.

The showrunners did their best to trick their audience into believing the show was "different" (as in "better than the rest", naturally: smarter (book covers! philosopher names! OMG!) and with an actual plan, unlike those other disappointing mystery-based shows), and many viewers didn't know better. Especially when it comes to SF, which is why we still see writers and viewers use that as a perfectly valid excuse for all kinds of inconsistencies ("the show has a freaking smoke monster and you're surprised this doesn't make sense?!").

A real answer please.

Yeah, 'cause I always try to weasel my way out of those, right?

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Thanks for falling into my trap and proving my point. You can't talk about the show without belittling everyone involved and its fans. Not worth continuing in my opinion.

 

[Erigu]

Thanks for falling into my trap

You so Machiavellian.

You can't talk about the show without belittling everyone involved and its fans.

I can't quite talk about the popularity of a show that I consider to be dumb as a doorknob without arguing that those who think it was well written are wrong.
If that's your idea of a "trap", man...

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

You so Machiavellian.


I can't quite talk about the popularity of a show that I consider to be dumb as a doorknob without arguing that those who think it was well written are wrong.
If that's your idea of a "trap", man...

People from all walks of life find the show enthralling and well written and still see its faults. Your opinion doesn't make anyone wrong. I'm not even calling you wrong for disliking it. But you act as if this shit should all revolve around you. That's why you're here. If it irritates you so bad that people enjoy the show, I will exaggerate my appreciation of it just to fuck your days up. Have a nice... life?

 

[Erigu]

People from all walks of life find the show enthralling and well written and still see its faults.

If those people think it was well written, they missed one...

Your opinion doesn't make anyone wrong.

Er... No, opinions generally don't do that...

you act as if this shit should all revolve around you.

How so?
I'm confident the writing on the show was shitty, and I defend that position with arguments. How does it follow that I believe "it should all revolve around me"?

 

[PedroPanache]

The main problem with Lost is that by the mid-part of season 3 the show runners were given an unprecedented opportunity to create a consistent and cohesive mythology based show when they given an end-date, and they missed by a significant margin. With proper planning and discipline Lost really could have lived up to it's potential but they ended up trampling over most of the interesting stuff they set up in the earlier seasons.

I hate that they retroactively ruined the scene where Ben takes Locke to Jacob's cabin; it used to be one of my favourite scenes. I can't really watch that scene anymore because it barely makes any kind of sense - especially when Ben shoots him in a jealous rage - and I'm not willing to jump through various logical loopholes to make it work; that was the writers job and they failed spectacularly.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

The main problem with Lost is that by the mid-part of season 3 the show runners were given an unprecedented opportunity to create a consistent and cohesive mythology based show when they given an end-date, and they missed by a significant margin. With proper planning and discipline Lost really could have lived up to it's potential but they ended up trampling over most of the interesting stuff they set up in the earlier seasons.

Well thats just like your opinion man.

I hate that they retroactively ruined the scene where Ben takes Locke to Jacob's cabin; it used to be one of my favourite scenes. I can't really watch that scene anymore because it barely makes any kind of sense - especially when Ben shoots him in a jealous rage - and I'm not willing to jump through various logical loopholes to make it work; that was the writers job and they failed spectacularly.

You dont understand the cabin and why Ben shot Locke?

Good lord, the cabin was figured out forever ago.

The only inconsistencies involving the cabin is that Richard motivations seem a little off. The rest is golden.

Even then, Jacob always kept Richard in the dark.

 

[Erigu]

Please explain the cabin, Drealmcc0y. Enlighten us.

 

[PedroPanache]

Oh, I understand the cabin. I understand they took a rather simple and interesting idea and turned it into a clusterfuck of who was using the cabin and when and what purpose did it serve. It was all the more interesting before they changed their minds and decided that Ben was making it up.

Then there's the whole matter of the Richard/Ben interactions during the episode not making sense anymore.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Oh joy. Could i Erigu?

The cabin is a meeting place between Jacob and Richard where Jacob gave him the lists. He surrounded it with ash to keep the MiB out.

At some time that we never see the ash is broken. Jacob abandons the cabin.

Ben who has never seen Jacob but knows about this cabin from Richard takes Locke there and puts on a show. He does this because he is embarrassed that he has never seen Jacob and of his jealously of Locke and makes Locke feel inadequate by pretending that he can see Jacob and Locke cant.

What he doesnt count on is that something sinister(MiB) is playing these two like puppets.

"Help me"

Only Locke can hear these words, making Locke think he is special. Which is exactly what he needs from Locke.

This makes Ben ultimately angry at Jacob. "What about me"

In the season 4 premiere Hurley stumbles across the cabin and see MiB as Christian and Jacobs eye. Jacob opens the door and invites Hurley in because Hurley is the ultimate candidate.

The reason the cabin keeps moving is because MiB has teleportation abilities. He moves the cabin until he is ready for Locke to move the island later in the season.

This scene later in season 4, doesnt need any explanation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy9JMMTpQzw

The cabin is brilliant.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Oh, I understand the cabin. I understand they took a rather simple and interesting idea and turned it into a clusterfuck of who was using the cabin and when and what purpose did it serve. It was all the more interesting before they changed their minds and decided that Ben was making it up.

Then there's the whole matter of the Richard/Ben interactions during the episode not making sense anymore.

Oh lookey!

Somebody brought up that the writers changed their minds, even though they cant prove that for shit!

Isnt that just wonderful!

 

[PedroPanache]

Oh lookey!

Somebody brought up that the writers didn't change their minds, even though they probably should have checked google first.

Isnt that just wonderful!


From the Official Podcast.

CUSE: "Ben took Locke out to see JACOB as sort of a litmus test. He wanted to find out if in fact John Locke really was special, and if John Locke really could see or hear JACOB, that would indicate that Locke really WAS special. So when Locke DID hear JACOB, that really got...that freaked Ben out. That was a threat to Ben and his primacy. So he led him over to the pit and he shot him, 'cause he doesn't want his leadership of the Others challenged by John Locke.


And a quote from the commentary of The Man Behind The Curtain

"[The Circle of Ash is] a bit of a kind of protection or magic or kind of containment. Ben is afraid to touch it. In a certain way, part of the idea here is that Ben has some powers over Jacob, and Jacob has some powers over Ben, and there is a bit of a stasis."

 

[bachikarn]

Oh lookey!

Somebody brought up that the writers changed their minds, even though they cant prove that for shit!

Isnt that just wonderful!

Do you think Ben and Widmore's rules were originally supposed to be a gentlemen's agreement?

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Oh lookey!

Somebody brought up that the writers didn't change their minds, even though they probably should have checked google first.

Isnt that just wonderful!


From the Official Podcast.

CUSE: "Ben took Locke out to see JACOB as sort of a litmus test. He wanted to find out if in fact John Locke really was special, and if John Locke really could see or hear JACOB, that would indicate that Locke really WAS special. So when Locke DID hear JACOB, that really got...that freaked Ben out. That was a threat to Ben and his primacy. So he led him over to the pit and he shot him, 'cause he doesn't want his leadership of the Others challenged by John Locke.


And a quote from the commentary of The Man Behind The Curtain

"[The Circle of Ash is] a bit of a kind of protection or magic or kind of containment. Ben is afraid to touch it. In a certain way, part of the idea here is that Ben has some powers over Jacob, and Jacob has some powers over Ben, and there is a bit of a stasis."

Well what do you want them to say???

Of course they said it was Jacob! What else would they say???

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Do you think Ben and Widmore's rules were originally supposed to be a gentlemen's agreement?

I dont know what they knew, neither does anybody else.

All that matters is what is on the show.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

Oh lookey!

Somebody brought up that the writers didn't change their minds, even though they probably should have checked google first.

Isnt that just wonderful!


From the Official Podcast.

CUSE: "Ben took Locke out to see JACOB as sort of a litmus test. He wanted to find out if in fact John Locke really was special, and if John Locke really could see or hear JACOB, that would indicate that Locke really WAS special. So when Locke DID hear JACOB, that really got...that freaked Ben out. That was a threat to Ben and his primacy. So he led him over to the pit and he shot him, 'cause he doesn't want his leadership of the Others challenged by John Locke.


And a quote from the commentary of The Man Behind The Curtain

"[The Circle of Ash is] a bit of a kind of protection or magic or kind of containment. Ben is afraid to touch it. In a certain way, part of the idea here is that Ben has some powers over Jacob, and Jacob has some powers over Ben, and there is a bit of a stasis."

They're telling us what the characters knew at that time point and what the viewers thought as well.

 

[bachikarn]

I dont know what they knew, neither does anybody else.

All that matters is what is on the show.

And the show heavily implies that it was more than a gentleman's agreement in Season 4, but ends up not making sense at the end. That sounds like pretty good evidence to me that they changed that plot line.

Well what do you want them to say???

Of course they said it was Jacob! What else would they say???

How about not saying there is this symbiotic relationship between Ben and Jacob when that ends up not being the case at all?

 

[Erigu]

Oh joy. Could i Erigu?

Like I ever prevent you from trying to explain stuff...

The cabin is a meeting place between Jacob and Richard where Jacob gave him the lists. He surrounded it with ash to keep the MiB out.

The statue isn't surrounded with ash, and that doesn't appear to be a problem.
And of course, Barry can't kill Jacob, and Jacob appears to be able to move around as he pleases (probably even teleport, as I don't quite imagine him leaving the island on a rowboat). So I don't know that he would need a safe house.
Oh, and a circle of ash is a ridiculous protection.

At some time that we never see the ash is broken. Jacob abandons the cabin.

Because?
Because.

Ben who has never seen Jacob but knows about this cabin from Richard takes Locke there and puts on a show. He does this because of his jealously of Locke and makes Locke feel inadequate because Ben can see Jacob and he cant.

A plan that requires Locke to actually buy into this "invisible man" BS. Obviously flawless.

What he doesnt count on is that something sinister(MiB) is playing these two like puppets.

Sure was a good thing something supernatural was afoot though, or Locke wouldn't have given a shit about Ben's little show.
And when Barry acts like the technophobic poltergeist Ben just made up and tells Locke "help me", he's "playing them like puppets"... how, exactly?

Only Locke can hear these words, making Locke think he is special. Which is exactly what he needs from Locke.

How so? All he needs is some guy to go and stab Jacob.
Why would he need Locke to feel special? Why would he need Locke at all?

This makes Ben ultimately angry and Jacob.

So Ben thinks that was Jacob? He thinks he just happened to guess right, with the technophobic poltergeist thing?

I guess you might ask "what else could it be?", and I'd be tempted to reply "Barry, for example?", but then again, it looks like Ben knew jackshit about Barry, in the end, despite the fact his freaking advisor met the guy and took up that job precisely to help people against him. Oh, and Dôgen.
Shit makes so much sense.

In the season 4 premiere Hurley stumbles across the cabin and see MiB as Christian and Jacobs eye.

Because that makes sense. Maybe it was Halloween, or some shit like that. Barry was disguised as Christian for fun, and Jacob loves to frighten his guests.

Also, Hurley could find the cabin because he was special, but then nobody cared about that anymore, and he just became the guy who could see ghosts. More often than the other characters. Because.

Jacob opens the door and invites Hurley in because Hurley is the ultimate candidate.

You're just making shit up, here.

The reason the cabin keeps moving is because MiB has teleportation abilities.
He moves the cabin until he is ready for Locke to move the island later in the season.

You're still not making any sense.
First of all, Barry can teleport? All right!
Second of all, that explains how the cabin moves around? Fine!
And then, he was moving the cabin around because it was not time yet for Locke to move the island (there's a schedule, apparently), and because that's pretty much the only sensible way to postpone a meeting: move the building all over the place until you feel the time is right. Of course!

Let's not ask what was up with Locke's dream or that map.
Let's not wonder why Barry would have a problem with Widmore the Hun showing up.

The cabin is brilliant.

This is hilarious.

Well what do you want them to say???

Nothing? That's generally how writers deal with mysteries.

All that matters is what is on the show.

And watching the show is how you can tell they didn't know shit.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Actually Richards motivation does fit.

Richard had meetings with Jacob right, but even though Ben knows about the cabin, Richard knows he has never met him.

So when its decalred to the camp Ben is going to see Jacob with Locke, Richards exact reaction is "WTF".

Richard doesnt realise at that point Jacobs cabin has been compromised.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

And the show heavily implies that it was more than a gentleman's agreement in Season 4, but ends up not making sense at the end. That sounds like pretty good evidence to me that they changed that plot line.

Why doesnt it make sense in the end? You've lost me

 

[Barnaby_Jones]

Oh lookey!

Somebody brought up that the writers didn't change their minds, even though they probably should have checked google first.

Isnt that just wonderful!


From the Official Podcast.

*quote*


And a quote from the commentary of The Man Behind The Curtain

*quote*

I could be wrong but to me, this reads almost as if you expected the writers in their official podcast and commentary, to reveal that it was not Jacob in the cabin.

Why doesnt it make sense in the end? You've lost me

I think it's less of "it didn't make sense" and more "ultimately it was a let down between those two characters." They had many fantastic scenes and through season 4 with the war between the 2 of them being hyped up, it ultimately got left to the side somewhat in order to push a different war between 2 different parties. I can appreciate people feeling burned by that.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

ERIGU REPLY IN A NORMAL MANNER, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I ASKED YOU

Its impossible to reply too because I cant read my part of quote, so I have no idea what you're replying too.

 

[bachikarn]

Why doesnt it make sense in the end? You've lost me

Because Ben was SO convinced that the rules would be held, he let his daughter die. He was then incredibly shocked that Keamey didn't keep the rules. Did he really expect this ruthless mercenary to keep a gentleman's agreement?

The scene implies there was something much more to the rules. The episode before was about the Island not letting Michael die. Ben had the same type of confidence that his daughter wouldn't die.

Also in that episode, Ben tells Widmore the he couldn't kill him. As if the Island wouldn't let him. But then Ben shoots Widmore in the face in the end of season 6.

 

[Erigu]

ERIGU REPLY IN A NORMAL MANNER, HOW MANY TIMES HAVE I ASKED YOU

You've used that excuse before, indeed.

 

[PedroPanache]

Well what do you want them to say???

Of course they said it was Jacob! What else would they say???

Yeah, because there's clearly no precedent for them talking above what the characters/audience know and instilling an element of doubt. But, you know what, if you're going to go these lengths to defend one of the shoddier aspects of the show I question any kind of objectivity you may have. The cabin became one of the messier elements of the mythology, especially when the season 3 version of the cabin was such a well defined and executed idea and tied into Ben and Locke's insecurities.

Now it's the Man In Black's Magical Moving Mystery Cabin Tour Extravaganza - coming soon to a candidate near you. One time occupant Jacob remarked "He's welcome to it, the place is a shit-hole with no running water or electricity. I'm glad I left and told no-one about it."

 

[Drealmcc0y]

The statue isn't surrounded with ash, and that doesn't appear to be a problem.
And of course, Barry can't kill Jacob, and Jacob appears to be able to move around as he pleases (probably even teleport, as I don't quite imagine him leaving the island on a rowboat). So I don't know that he would need a safe house.
Oh, and a circle of ash is a ridiculous protection.

He only surrounded the cabin so he MiB would know as little about what Jacob and The others are up to as little as possible.

I think the ash is really cool

Because?
Because.

Its true that we never know how the ash is broken. I dont see why thats a problem though, MiB found a way too do it at some point.

A plan that requires Locke to actually buy into this "invisible man" BS. Obviously flawless.

Well if theres one person who would buy into it..... It would be Locke.

Sure was a good thing something supernatural was afoot though, or Locke wouldn't have given a shit about Ben's little show.
And when Barry acts like the technophobic poltergeist Ben just made up and tells Locke "help me", he's "playing them like puppets"... how, exactly?

Well I explain this is the next two sentences

How so? All he needs is some guy to go and stab Jacob.
Why would he need Locke to feel special? Why would he need Locke at all?

Yeah you're right Erigu, MIB DOESNT NEED LOCKE AT ALL, YOU'RE SPOT ON.

So Ben thinks that was Jacob? He thinks he just happened to guess right, with the technophobic poltergeist thing?

I guess you might ask "what else could it be?", and I'd be tempted to reply "Barry, for example?", but then again, it looks like Ben knew jackshit about Barry, in the end, despite the fact his freaking advisor met the guy and took up that job precisely to help people against him. Oh, and Dôgen.
Shit makes so much sense.

Ben knows that Richard meets Jacob here.

You're just making shit up, here.

Well yeah I am, but im watch the scene where Jacob opens the door to Hurley and I just came to that conclusion of why he did it, pretty simple really.

You're still not making any sense.
First of all, Barry can teleport? All right!Second of all, that explains how the cabin moves around? Fine!
And then, he was moving the cabin around because it was not time yet for Locke to move the island (there's a schedule, apparently), and because that's pretty much the only sensible way to postpone a meeting: move the building all over the place until you feel the time is right. Of course!

Yes of course he can teleport? He has done it a bunch of times in the show.

Let's not ask what was up with Locke's dream or that map.

The dreams involving locke throughout the show is genius, they all come from the MiB.

In this instance he gives Locke the dream to give him the tools to come to him.

This is hilarious.

and yet not a single plot hole.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Please for the love of god and all that is good in the world.... as one human being to another.... dont do that quote shit anymore.... please erigu

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Because Ben was SO convinced that the rules would be held, he let his daughter die. He was then incredibly shocked that Keamey didn't keep the rules. Did he really expect this ruthless mercenary to keep a gentleman's agreement?

The scene implies there was something much more to the rules. The episode before was about the Island not letting Michael die. Ben had the same type of confidence that his daughter wouldn't die.

Also in that episode, Ben tells Widmore the he couldn't kill him. As if the Island wouldn't let him. But then Ben shoots Widmore in the face in the end of season 6.

Well the fact that the rules were changed when Alex was killed just shows that its not supernatural unbreakable rules.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Yeah, because there's clearly no precedent for them talking above what the characters/audience know and instilling an element of doubt. But, you know what, if you're going to go these lengths to defend one of the shoddier aspects of the show I question any kind of objectivity you may have. The cabin became one of the messier elements of the mythology, especially when the season 3 version of the cabin was such a well defined and executed idea and tied into Ben and Locke's insecurities.

Now it's the Man In Black's Magical Moving Mystery Cabin Tour Extravaganza - coming soon to a candidate near you. One time occupant Jacob remarked "He's welcome to it, the place is a shit-hole with no running water or electricity. I'm glad I left and told no-one about it."

Think about it what you will.

In the show the cabin has no plot holes.

 

[Barnaby_Jones]

One day, time and will permitting, I'd like to write up an analysis of what I took from the show, both in character development and mythology. It'll be a long one and delve into both my likes and dislikes with the show so maybe I'll link to it in here if anyone is ever curious.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

One day, time and will permitting, I'd like to write up an analysis of what I took from the show, both in character development and mythology. It'll be a long one and delve into both my likes and dislikes with the show so maybe I'll link to it in here if anyone is ever curious.

I'd be glad to read it, and on behalf of Erigu, im sure he would love to read it too.

Edit: I'll be back in a couple of hours

 

[cloud_sleep]

This stuff about the cabin is an example of what I found so unrewarding about the whole Jacob/MIB thing. It seems to me that they were brought into the show mainly so that many of the mysteries could simple be explained by ascribing magic powers and dubious to either party. e.g. the cabin moved around because MIB could teleport and for some reason moving a cabin around was a good use of his time. The candidates were manipulated into coming to the island by Jacob because his super powers meant that he was somehow able to know that giving a pen to someone at the right time would end up with them getting on a specific plane years later. In other words: an angel / devil did it with magic. That just isn't a satisfying answer to me as it doesn't really explain anything and therefore can be used to explain anything. If you had told me during S1 that the big secret of the show was that the whole thing was the cause of 2 inscrutable people with vaguely god-like powers playing a sort of game with a set of overly complicated rules and badly illustrated stakes then I probably wouldn't have bothered.

I have recently rewatched a fair chunk of S1 and it seems pretty obvious to me (and others who have pointed this out) that the real plan was for the island to be a kind of purgatory / land of the dead, with the survivors working out their issues before moving on and so on, but the somewhat unprecedented online community of fans that sprung up around the show guessed that rather quickly and the show was changed. You then have 5 seasons of the show essentially spinning its wheels, before reverting to the original plan (only the alt timeline becomes purgatory) for the finale. This wouldn't matter if what they came up with felt consistent and satisfying but, for me, very little of it did.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

. The candidates were manipulated into coming to the island by Jacob because his super powers meant that he was somehow able to know that giving a pen to someone at the right time would end up with them getting on a specific plane years later.

I dont think Jacob had any powers, unless it came with the territory of being protector.

I think he knew some things about the future because of the lighthouse.

The lighthouse power comes from the source and as said by Pierre Chang in season 5 "That energy, once we can harness it correctly, its going to allow us to manipulate time"

Thats basically what the lighthouse does.

 

[cloud_sleep]

I dont think Jacob had any powers, unless it came with the territory of being protector.

I think he knew some things about the future because of the lighthouse.

The lighthouse power comes from the source and as said by Pierre Chang in season 5 "That energy, once we can harness it correctly, its going to allow us to manipulate time"

Thats basically what the lighthouse does.

Even with a device that lets you see someone's whole life to date I think you would still need superhuman insight to know at which moment to appear and give a little nudge in order to ensure that they end up on a specific flight. Also, didn't Jacob partially heal Locke by touching him, after he had been pushed out of a window (the fall should have killed him)? - I may have remembered that wrong, I haven't watched the later seasons since they aired. And presumably Jacob is able to move around the world at will because we see him interacting with the candidates. Then you have the fact that Jacob is able to set rules which seem to operate at a metaphysical level. You could of course argue that neither Jacob or MIB had any instrinsic powers but they were instead channelling the 'source', but it amounts to the same thing as far as plot devices go. I also assumed that we were meant to conclude that Jacob somehow ensured that the candidates survived the plane crash. Or is there another answer to that one? Again, if the answer is supposed to be that some magic force within the island (the source) did it then I would still have issues with that as an explanation.

I would like to qualify my opinions by saying that I don't hate Lost. Far from it. I certainly enjoyed the early seasons immensely. It was a show that I looked forward to like no other and often stayed with me long after the episodes ended each week. In that sense, it did it's job. It's just that looking back on it as a whole, in the context of the MIB/Jacob/source explanation, it just doesn't seem to matter as much to me. The answers seem so arbitary. It also doesn't help that I felt that the standard of writing dropped substantially over the length of its run.

 

[Erigu]

He only surrounded the cabin so he MiB would know as little about what Jacob and The others are up to as little as possible.

And yet, he moved back to the unprotected statue?
What prevented Barry from spying on the Others back when they were camping outdoor, anyway?
Why did Jacob need one specific place to meet with Richard? If they're concerned about Barry spying on them, that doesn't sound like the best strategy, does it?

I think the ash is really cool

A broom. That's all you need. If you can't wait for the wind.

Its true that we never know how the ash is broken. I dont see why thats a problem though, MiB found a way too do it at some point.

See right above: that's not where the true mystery lies, here, in my opinion...
And why did Jacob leave the statue for the cabin? Why did Jacob leave the cabin for the statue?

Well if theres one person who would buy into it..... It would be Locke.

Because Locke is a complete moron? Yeah, sometimes, he is. Whenever the plot requires it (same with most characters). But a plan that relies on the other guy behaving like a complete moron isn't much of a plan.
And in fact, it didn't work. Until Barry shook things up, and that wasn't part of the plan.

Yeah you're right Erigu, MIB DOESNT NEED LOCKE AT ALL, YOU'RE SPOT ON.

Is that supposed to be sarcasm? Because I assure you it's not warranted, here.
Just try and explain why Barry absolutely needed Locke in order to try and kill Jacob, when it was so simple a century ago, with Richard.

Ben knows that Richard meets Jacob here.

But what of all that stuff about Jacob being a technophobic ghost? Where does that come from? If Ben made that up, isn't it a bit weird that "Jacob" turns out to be exactly that?

im watch the scene where Jacob opens the door to Hurley and I just came to that conclusion of why he did it, pretty simple really.

Because he's the Ultimate Candidate, a new term you just pulled out of your derriere.

And that's it, too, I imagine. Jacob wanted Hurley to join him and his brother for the Halloween party in the moving cabin. But Hurley fled and Jacob gave up right there.
Who wouldn't be satisfied with such a bullet-proof explanation. It all makes sense.

Yes of course he can teleport? He has done it a bunch of times in the show.

(he's still blocked by the magical ash, yes?)
And then, he also walked / flied around a lot. Chased people. Failed to catch up. And used a boat (presumably, he can't teleport over water, if that makes sense).

The dreams involving locke throughout the show is genius, they all come from the MiB.

Because it's genius to give Barry so many abilities and have him forget about them 99% of the time.

In this instance he gives Locke the dream to give him the tools to come to him.

He shows up in Locke's dream as Horace, sends him on a quest for the map to the cabin, and finally stops moving said cabin around so he could find it where x marks the spot.
I mean, it was either that or simply appearing to Locke and telling him to move the island, and that would have been awfully pedestrian (not that it bothers him later on).

(You skipped a bunch of things.)

and yet not a single plot hole.

Wow.

the fact that the rules were changed when Alex was killed just shows that its not supernatural unbreakable rules.

And yet:

WIDMORE: Have you come here to kill me, Benjamin?
BEN: We both know I can't do that.

... Okay?
Ben proceeds to tell Widmore he will kill Penny (because fuck the rules), and leaves the premises unharmed (because thank you, rules!).
Consistency!

I dont think Jacob had any powers, unless it came with the territory of being protector.

So he didn't invite all those people on the island after all? He merely knew they'd show up? Because the lighthouse actually allowed him to peek into the future, and never mind if the show didn't say anything about that?
Can you keep track of all the loopholes you're jumping through?

didn't Jacob partially heal Locke by touching him, after he had been pushed out of a window (the fall should have killed him)?

I'm not sure there's any way to tell if he helped him with that or not...
Still, he instantly healed Ilana and turned Richard into an immortal (who can't kill himself, for some reason).

 

[Drealmcc0y]

You just done that quote shit again, after aking you not too.

Now if you would kindly go fuck yourself Erigu

 

[Moz La Punk]

You just done that quote shit again, after aking you not too.

Now if you would kindly go fuck yourself Erigu

whats the problem? It makes it easier to follow a discussion, from my perspective at least...

 

[Qwomo]

You just done that quote shit again, after aking you not too.

Now if you would kindly go fuck yourself Erigu

Have you never posted on an internet forum before in your entire life?

 

[Shorty]

And why did Jacob leave the statue for the cabin? Why did Jacob leave the cabin for the statue?

Jacob has always lived in the statue. The ash around the cabin was not to keep MIB out but INSIDE the cabin. When the circle of ash was interrupted (for unkown reasons) he was free to escape his prison and kill the man that trapped him there. At least that's what I always assumed and just NOW I realize that can't be

Edit: And MIB needs John for obvious reasons. Locke is the new leader of the others and disguised as him he will encouter the least amount of resistance when trying to gain access to Jacob's hideout.

 

[Barnaby_Jones]

A broom. That's all you need. If you can't wait for the wind.

How did the writers not see that one coming?! I'm sure the writers didn't actually expect anyone to start questioning the technicalities of magical ash.