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[Blobbers]

Dark Souls 2 had a hard life.

Tanimura: Yes, this game actually went through quite a troubled development process. Due to a number of factors we were actually forced to re-think the entire game midway into development. We really had to go back to the drawing board and think once more about what a Dark Souls game should be. It was at that point that I took on my current role, overseeing the entirety of the game including the art direction. To ensure we created the game both we and the fans wanted it was completely necessary, but it did of course create a problem. We had to decide what to do with the designs and maps that had been created up to that point. Ideally we’d start again from scratch but of course we were under time constraints so instead we had to figure out how to repurpose the designs in our newly reimagined game. This meant everything from deciding new roles for characters to finding ways to slot locations into the world map.
http://peterbarnard1984.tumblr.com/post/113163062955/dark-souls-2-design-works-translation

Not that I disagree that the game is by far the worst entry in the series.

 

[antitrop]

Game leaves an awful first impression, I dropped it after 2 hours. Looking forward to Dark Souls III, though.

 

[Manu]

thanks for this op. everything sounds awful. now I can stop looking at this game contemplating whether i should get it.

That's not confirmation bias at all. No sir.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

There were a couple of okayish ideas, but I agree that probably 98% of it was staggeringly worse than any of the other games. I can't even cotton to the whole "it's a great game, but a bad Souls game" notion, it's just plain bad. It honestly feels like some Chinese bootleg Souls to me.

I even revisited it last year to see if maybe I was just high for the entirety of my playthrough when the game came out, and even with zero expectations I just couldn't do it.

 

[JumpCancel]

is this the new "after 40 hours it starts to get good!"-argument?

It the point where I said to myself:

"Now I have the same i-frames as I did in DS1".

Going from DS1 to DS2 you feel the fewer amount of i-frames you have and it's irritating.

This ain't no FFXIII situation.

 

[Barajas_201]

I have the same exact problem, not being able to rolling away from danger is like a deal breaker for me. So I need to up Adaptability to 20 to make roll like Dark Souls, GAF?

 

[WouldYouKindly]

"B TEAM"

 

[M0nochromatic]

Once I got my i-frames and roll distance just how I liked it, it became a much more tolerable experience. It just feels like it takes as many steps forward as it takes back.

Here's the Darks Souls 2 wiki page for getting your I-frames just how you want them.

 

[Ratrat]

I think its the funnest game overall and the dlc is sublime. Kind of sad to see so many people hate it.

 

[Hypron]

I'd suggest OP calm down a bit before making a thread. It sounds like you got frustrated and went to NeoGAF right away to vent about it. Or at least that's what it reads like.

I just finished getting all the achievements for SOTFS this morning - that's my 3rd time doing so for the game. I thoroughly enjoy it. It does some things worse (world cohesiveness mainly and probably story for those that care about it. The gated movement controls are also inferior for platforming even if you get used to them pretty quickly) than Dark Souls 1 but does other things better (build variety - you've got way more viable weapons-, magic, gameplay additions like power stance, jump controls, being able to run while locked on, the entire multiplayer aspect including covenants and coop matchmaking, PVP is more fun without lagstabs, and just the sheer quantity of content). I pretty much disagree with most of the OP.

is this the new "after 40 hours it starts to get good!"-argument?

No because you can get that much adaptability in literally 20 minutes from starting the game. Furthermore you can also decide not to update that stat if you don't roll much and prefer to rely on tanking most attacks (greatshields are very good in this game so it's a decent option).

You want to rely on rolls? Increase that stat, you don't even need to increase it that much. The game makes it easier to level up to compensate for the increased number of meaningful stats.

I don't get why people get so hung up on this. Like, I also slightly prefer DaS 1's approach because it makes SL1 playthroughs more pleasant... But for a normal playthrough it's a complete non issue. I increase the stat asap and just completely forget about it. My current character actually has more invincibility frames on her rolls than a DaS 1 fast roll actually.

I beat the rotten like 10 times yesterday to quickly get to NG++. I dodged through countless attacks and barely avoided many others simply by walking away and positioning myself appropriately.

Lmao wait until you get to Shrine of Amana

Yeah they kinda nerfed it with a patch in Vanilla but the additions in SOTFS bring it back to the original levels of annoying haha.

 

[AuthenticM]

but I think it speaks volumes of the original Dark Souls that I can acknowledge all your criticisms, while still thinking it's a pretty good game worth playing.

this is where I stand.

Lmao wait until you get to Shrine of Amana

hahaha, he's going to snap the fucking disc in half.

 

[randome]

Am I the only one who did not like how interconnected the levels were in dark souls I? It was confusing and seemed to take longer to get everywhere and made everything seem more repetitive.

 

[AuthenticM]

Am I the only one who did not like how interconnected the levels were in dark souls I? It was confusing and seemed to take longer to get everywhere and made everything seem more repetitive.

I don't know if you're the only one, but it's the first time I read this opinion.

 

[NBtoaster]

The games really aren't that mechanically different where you can rationally love one and despise the other.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

I always laugh when I see these threads. Dark Souls II is superior to Bloodborne. At least DS II has a proper climax and doesn't fizzle out for the final act of the game.

 

[Griss]

I have the same exact problem, not being able to rolling away from danger is like a deal breaker for me. So I need to up Adaptability to 20 to make roll like Dark Souls, GAF?

It's not that you'll 'roll like Dark Souls' so much as it's the point when the game feels responsive and fun to play again.

The games really aren't that mechanically different where you can rationally love one and despise the other.

I would agree with this. It's a weaker game than all the other Souls and has very real flaws, but has such similar fundamentals to the beloved other games that any claims of 'hatred' or 'terrible game' can only be by way of comparison bias.

 

[spliced]

What is Dark Souls 2?

Well it's the second best game in the Soulsborne series. The combat is meant to be strategic, Bloodborne's infinite stamina button mashing is worse.

 

[Producer]

You can, in fact, roll immediately after an attack. After an attack, you have to press that same attack button + roll during the recovery frames. Its a specific timing that varies per weapon and per attack (R1/R2) and it consumes a bit more stamina than your regular roll.

It probably sounds very technical but its really not. Once you get the hang of it you can do it very easily and its valuable tech to know.

 

[Marty-esque]

I finished the game on PS4 a few weeks ago and I wish I had stopped playing it long before that. I acknowledge it is my decision to keep playing but I realized I didn't enjoy it at all. The game burnt me out on the series a bit. I am currently playing the first Dark Souls, and while I like it, I feel I need to take a break from these games.

There were many times where I had decided to drop the game but I couldn't help myself. I just needed to finish it. My opinion is that the game is not just inferior to the other games, it's just overall not a good game.

 

[EatinOlives]

I definitely didn't have as strong a reaction as you but DS2 is definitely the weakest Souls game with some straight up trash game design in a few instances. I wouldn't sweat not finishing the game because after the credits rolled I thought "well that was fun, but not a game I feel was a must-play".

 

[Slammin_Hammon]

Dark Souls 2 was a disappointment as a follow-up to Dark Souls 1, but it is still am excellent game. The main gripe I have with DS2 is that the world isn't interconnected very well unlike DS1 which was fantastic in that regard.

I'd argue that it some regards DS2 is better than Bloodborne. There's more variety in playstyles and weapons. The online functionality is also leagues better than the bell ringing crap in Bloodborne. There is also a more fleshed out covenant system. Having to go to Hunter's Dream to warp anywhere sucks. Finally having healing items being only consumables does weird stuff like encouraging farming of blood vials if you are having trouble with a boss rather than improving your strategy.

 

[iRAWRasaurus]

Still think dark souls 2 is a great game. Personally my only issuse with it are the iframe tied to stats and soul memory.

 

[Teeth]

Every time I read someone say, "you have to put 20 points into Adaptability before the game is good." It actually means, "I have to put 20 points into Adaptability to have fun because I am not very good at this game. "

You get i frames at base adaptability. There are less, which means that you have to time your roll more precisely. Everything can still be dodged. The game isn't sloppier, it's just not allowing you to be as sloppy.

Additionally, while the break point for fat roll is at 70% weight, your actual roll distance scales linearly inversely with weight. As such, with low weight, you character will roll further, allowing for less frames that could potentially intersect with an enemy's attack. So the potential variance on enemy attack dodging is more complex.

For instance, a heavy character with high adaptability could necessitate a more precise roll than a light character with low adaptability; if the enemy swings slow, the fat character could intersect for 7 frames, the light character for only 2 frames. In those circumstances, the fat character with 10 i frames would have to time their roll much more precisely than the light one with 6 i frames.

There are thousands of people who have SL1 beat DS2. Learn to roll.

 

[zethren]

I loved Dark Souls 2, even more than Bloodborne. I've beaten that game so many times, I'm sorry you didn't like it, OP.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

No Man's Wharf is one of my favorite areas in the game because it's feels quite different than any area in Dark Souls 1 (whereas a lot of other areas in DS2 just feel like copies) and has a strong sense of place that many of the DS2 areas lack. Yeah, it's pretty cheap at times, but that's a general failing of the game as a whole.

 

[BriGuy]

The farther removed I am from having played DS2, the more I dislike it in hindsight. I used to think DS2 was a bad souls game but a great game by any other metric, but now I think I was being too charitable. I don't think I enjoyed it very much at all :/

It's like the Devil May Cry 2 of the Souls games. I tried to convince myself that that game wasn't all that bad at first either, but I was deluding myself.

 

[Golgo 13]

Can't say I disagree with anything you wrote -- until I played the game more. I also came off Bloodborne into Dark Souls 2 and it's an ugly, ugly transition. I don't like (to this day) that they tied rolling effectiveness to a stat. It feels horrible until you level it up really high. But really, I'm glad I pushed through and played the game more because while it's not as good as Dark Souls or Demons Souls or Bloodborne, it's still a really good game and worth your time.

Also, bosses suck. Be ready for that. They suck throughout the entire game. Nothing like DS1 or BB in that regard.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

The only thing that disappointed me about DaS2 was the removal of the original lighting system. Could the game have been better? Absolutely. Is it the worst in the Soulsborne series? Maybe. Is it a bad game? Definitely not.

 

[JBwB]

Dark Souls 2 is definitely the lesser game in comparison to the other souls games. But even then it's still a very good game.

Not sure if it was just me but I noticed I had a much easier time in Dark Souls 2 than the other games.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

No Man's Wharf is one of the best areas in the whole series. Fight me.

No Man's Wharf is one of my favorite areas in the game because it's feels quite different than any area in Dark Souls 1 (whereas a lot of other areas in DS2 just feel like copies) and has a strong sense of place that many of the DS2 areas lack. Yeah, it's pretty cheap at times, but that's a general failing of the game as a whole.

What is cheap about it?

Difficulty: must not be anything that happens in other Bloodsouls games

 

[TemplaerDude]

I'll never understand it. I guess I don't have as critical of an eye, or just am not as anal about these things as some people on here are, but I liked Dark Souls 2 just as much as Dark Souls 1 and I look very much forward to Dark Souls 3.

 

[Breads]

The majority of Souls fans/ gamers liked DS2 more than they hated it.

No amount of hyperbole or vocal minority will change that.

DeS, DS, and BB are not perfect games. They are just less flawed than DS2. Still DS2 is a great game and there are things that it does better than the rest of the series. The quality over quantity is a cute phrase but the quantity is quality here and despite the base game being the lesser of the lot the fact that it is replayable in so many different ways and that the PVP offers the most variety continues to make it the most popular souls game to date.

 

[Copper]

I think one thing people need to understand is DS2 is a slower paced game. Healing takes longer, attacks are slower ect. It's a matter of adjusting to the pace. Going from Bloodborne to SOTFS was jarring because of this. But once I realized I needed to change my reaction times I enjoyed it a lot more, and I died a lot less. That said, despite DS2 being a weaker souls game in some aspects, it also improved on many aspects that it doesn't get credit for. The online/multiplayer is by far the best in any souls game. It offers the most build variety and a had a lot more interesting NG+. It's still a fantastic game that is better than most action RPGs.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

No Man's Wharf is one of the best areas in the whole series. Fight me.


What is cheap about it?

Lots of ambushes (some foreshadowed better than others), but mostly I'm thinking about how it's pretty dark & there are a few snipers scattered throughout the area (including right at the beginning).

 

[Grisby]

Can't really agree. I loved the game.

The latter areas were so much better and more varied than DS1.

 

[Marty-esque]

No Man's Wharf is one of the best areas in the whole series. Fight me.


What is cheap about it?

Difficulty: must not be anything that happens in other Bloodsouls games

Bad enemy locations. Too many enemies in the area.

 

[Slick Butter]

Though I like Dark Souls 2, albeit as many not as much as the original, I have to agree on you point about No-Man's Wharf.
I've seen it brought up multiple times as an example of a good area in Dark Souls 2. However it is nothing like any of the previous game's areas, and I found it to be one of the worst in DkS2. It's pretty, sure, but it feels like a small cave straight out of Skyrim.
The Bastille which follows directly after is a far more well designed area. I just don't know why No-Man's Wharf gets used as an example of a good area in DkS2.

 

[Octavia]

Yep. I hated Dark Souls II until I pumped a bunch of points into adaptability. Then I started to really get into it, and actually found it to be better than Dark Souls in some ways and overall almost as good if you include the DLC, which was fantastic.

Yeah, the game feels cheap and broken when you have the default stats compared to the other 2 games. Then you put the points in and go "Oh yeah, now the game feels normal again" and you can roll to victory like before.

edit: Yuck, I hated the wharf. Too small, enemies packed in like sardines, ranged attacks if you try to go slow, little to no soul payoff, no thanks... First real part of the game that fully incentives you to just suicide run past everything to the object/boss.

 

[george_us]

I hated the game when it first came out. Never got past No Man's Wharf. Felt the same way when SOTFS came out but I powered through that area and started to enjoy myself. Finished it in 60 hours. Despite that, I agree with you for the most part OP. The combat feels off even when you bump up ADP and the level design is grossly inferior to pretty much any of the Souls games. The Sanctum City is probably the only truly great area in the game but even that area pales in comparison to the best the Souls games have to offer.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Lots of ambushes (some foreshadowed better than others), but mostly I'm thinking about how it's pretty dark & there are a few snipers scattered throughout the area (including right at the beginning).

Bad enemy locations. Too many enemies in the area.

See, I was just re-playing Bloodborne. There are ambushes everywhere, and dudes with rifles sniping at you from above in tons of places, some huge enemy hordes, etc. Including in the DLC. Man, no enemy horde in DS2 is ever as annoying and overflowing as that horde of crazy bloated-head patients as the Research Hall.

But I guess when Bloodborne does it, it's OK?

Spoiler

FWIW I don't mind ambushes and don't think they're inherently cheap, the game provides plenty of tool to get past those obstacles, if anything No Man's Wharf is generous with its torch placement.

 

[EatinOlives]

Though I like Dark Souls 2, albeit as many not as much as the original, I have to agree on you point about No-Man's Wharf.
I've seen it brought up multiple times as an example of a good area in Dark Souls 2. However it is nothing like any of the previous game's areas, and I found it to be one of the worst in DkS2. It's pretty, sure, but it feels like a small cave straight out of Skyrim.
The Bastille which follows directly after is a far more well designed area. I just don't know why No-Man's Wharf gets used as an example of a good area in DkS2.

It's a well designed and somewhat open area with a lot of hidden alcoves more obscured by the darkness. It was one of the very few areas in the game where the much-hyped "light/darkness system where torch use is important" feature actually delivers on its promises, as the lit torches give off a certain warmth that 1) you can see the immediate surroundings now and 2) you can start charting a path as you discover more. It played with the new mechanic that separated it form the pack of generic Souls levels from a big chunk of the game, but said mechanic worked well within the strengths of the formula (e.g., it still played with the basic Souls formula of "what's around the corner?", becoming better acquainted by inching along the hostile environment, becoming more familiar and being able to traverse said familiar areas faster). It's also long enough that you spend some time immersed in this environment, as opposed to most other areas in DS2 where you're just rushed along to the next area so you don't realize how shallow and underdeveloped your current one is. It's just a good Souls level.

However, I wouldn't call it one of the best of the series, since it's not quite the first time ever that the series has relied on darkness, plus the visuals aren't all that interesting. But so much of the rest of the DS2 (vanilla) levels were so bad that this looks even better by comparison. But better than Cainhurst? Sen's Fortress? Tower of Latria 3-2? Painted World of Ariamis? Not even close.

 

[knitoe]

I don't get people's hate for this game. I have play each hundreds of hours from Demon > Dark 1 > Dark 2 > Bloodborne and replayed them in random order. I am far from a "Souls" master, but I can easily re-adapt for each games quirk within 15 min so not sure when people say they can't handle its "weird / different" gameplay. And, I like DS2 the most for its variety in builds and multiplayer. The

 

[Hypron]

See, I was just re-playing Bloodborne. There are ambushes everywhere, and dudes with rifles sniping at you from above in tons of places, some huge enemy hordes, etc. Including in the DLC. Man, no enemy horde in DS2 is ever as annoying and overflowing as that horde of crazy bloated-head patients as the Research Hall.

But I guess when Bloodborne does it, it's OK?

Spoiler

FWIW I don't mind ambushes and don't think they're inherently cheap, the game provides plenty of tool to get past those obstacles, if anything No Man's Wharf is generous with its torch placement.

Yeah.

I actually feel like most of the time in DaS 2 you can deal with hordes by simply aggro-ing 1 or 2 (sometimes 3) guys at a time. You seldom have do deal with more than that unless you rush in. There's often a trick to avoid having to fight them all at once. In Bloodborne you have no choice but to face hordes a lot more often.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

I think its the funnest game overall and the dlc is sublime. Kind of sad to see so many people hate it.

Some of that seems to come from people who didn't play SOTFS. I can't comment on that because i've only played SOTFS.

Some of it also seems to be people crying solely because it isn't Demon/Dark Souls. As in, "It isn't DS1 and that is why it is bad." Dark Souls 2 SOTFS is awesome. I almost can't go back to DS1 because of how cartoony the enemy animations are, no bonfire teleporting right away, hell even the limited amount of times you can kill an enemy. I also like the look of DS2 more. Should honestly give it a chance with no opinion on what you THINK it should be.

A thread that is about complaining about Dark Souls 2 shows up about once a month here.

 

[baconcow]

Played DS1 and 2 back-to-back. Dark Souls 2 was the better overall experience, despite having a far weaker world and some other weaker aspects. The combat is great.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

But better than Cainhurst? Sen's Fortress? Tower of Latria 3-2? Painted World of Ariamis? Not even close.

I'd say almost on par with some of those. Personally I think 3-1 > 3-2, anyway, and Cainhurst is kind of overrated. It looks cool and the boss is great, but the enemies are annoying and really not fun to fight (and other than the blood ticks they aren't even hard, just annoying), and the loot you find is underwhelming (not counting post-boss rewards like the Chikage) so exploration isn't that rewarding. Its biggest upside is the boss, and just the coolness of the secret, but as an area itself it pales compared to the Painted World, and yes I do think NMW is a far better area.

For the record, my favourite areas of the series are, in no particular order: Painted World, Blighttown, Sen's Fortress, New Londo, Oolacile Township, 3-1, 5-2 (yes lol), 1-1, 1-3, 4-2, No Man's Wharf, Lost Bastille, Shulva, Brume Tower, Frozen Eleum Loyce, Iron Keep, Old Yharnam, Central Yharnam, Nightmare Frontier, Fishing Hamlet.

 

[EatinOlives]

Some of that seems to come from people who didn't play SOTFS. I can't comment on that because i've only played SOTFS.

Some of it also seems to be people crying solely because it isn't Demon/Dark Souls. As in, "It isn't DS1 and that is why it is bad." Dark Souls 2 SOTFS is awesome. I almost can't go back to DS1 because of how cartoony the enemy animations are, no bonfire teleporting right away, hell even the limited amount of times you can kill an enemy. I also like the look of DS2 more. Should honestly give it a chance with no opinion on what you THINK it should be.

*shrug* I never played the original and I only played through SoTFS this past December. I think it's a weak Souls game and don't like it all that much, and it has nothing to do with it being different from DS1.

It's worthwhile to listen to the critiques of people who don't like the game as much as you do, instead of inventing reasons to dismiss them like "I bet they didn't play SOFTS" and "I bet they hate it just because it's not DS1".

 

[DaciaJC]

Rarely have I read a thread where the OP sounds so consumed by rage. Good Lord.

For what it's worth, I do think Dark Souls II is the worst-designed of the Soulsborne games, especially mechanics-wise (agility was a very silly idea, they screwed up the parry system, poise was reduced to near-nothingness, among many other issues), but it's still probably my favorite behind the first Dark Souls. Or, at least, it's second from the top in playtime, probably because the opportunities for role-playing different character types are numerous, which isn't so much the case in Demon's Souls or Bloodborne.

 

[Hypron]

I'd say almost on par with some of those. Personally I think 3-1 > 3-2, anyway, and Cainhurst is kind of overrated. It looks cool and the boss is great, but the enemies are annoying and really not fun to fight (and other than the blood ticks they aren't even hard, just annoying), and the loot you find is underwhelming (not counting post-boss rewards like the Chikage) so exploration isn't that rewarding. Its biggest upside is the boss, and just the coolness of the secret, but as an area itself it pales compared to the Painted World, and yes I do think NMW is a far better area.

The biggest crime committed by Cainhurst is the fact you don'l leave footprints in the snow. It makes me sad

 

[Marty-esque]

See, I was just re-playing Bloodborne. There are ambushes everywhere, and dudes with rifles sniping at you from above in tons of places, some huge enemy hordes, etc. Including in the DLC. Man, no enemy horde in DS2 is ever as annoying and overflowing as that horde of crazy bloated-head patients as the Research Hall.

But I guess when Bloodborne does it, it's OK?

Spoiler

FWIW I don't mind ambushes and don't think they're inherently cheap, the game provides plenty of tool to get past those obstacles, if anything No Man's Wharf is generous with its torch placement.

I'm more comparing it to the other two games. But those enemies in Bloodborne you bring up don't always attack you right away a d they don't have many variations. If that were DS2 every enemy on one floor would chase you and attack you at the same time. Not to mention Bloodborne is just faster and more responsive so it isn't necessarily unbalanced if you're fighting multiple enemies.