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[Sibylus]

A) I disagree that this could be kept quite, especially the workings behind the death of Regret. Quite a few people knew about that, oh like...THE ENTIRE ALIEN FLEET THAT WAS SENT TO RESCUE HIM?! And honestly, Truth didn't take any measures so that the Brutes would keep quite, so I have no idea how the secret of Mercy's death would be kept secret. Also, the only prophets I've seen that have any sway over him was the council, while Mercy and Regret just sat back and did whatever Truth told them to do. While there were advantages of being the one prophet left, I cannot imagine they would outweigh the deep blow to moral and I still don't understand how the covenant would not find out what he did to Mercy and Regret, which would have weighed down on him...except they didn't really, they were sorta forgotten about, which makes no sense.

C) That's because they were TOLD to tolerate each other and get along. Give them a way to compete against each other and they'd go at it enthusiastically. Maybe they wouldn't LIKE each other, but that doesn't mean that they would refuse an opportunity to prove the other one inferior. This sort of attitude applies to general humanity and I don't see why 2 cocky, skilled races wouldn't go at it like school children on the ball court. People who would normally not stand in each other's presence have no problem kicking their ass in a fair game of something. At the very least, this option would be the much safer and more beneficial if it worked than cutting off their oldest and strongest of allies, who took a deal of grunts and hunters with them.

D) You're right, he wasn't respected at first, but that changed as soon as the end of the first mission when he offered to cut the cables and elites went on to say they will not forget him. And if having the Hunters and Grunts betray the Covenant and join the Arbiter just as soon as the Elites were betrayed political power, I don't know what is. Once again, the Arbiter would have been a very powerful political symbol and been capable of much more than taking out some heretic trash

A) Not an entire fleet, just a small group of Tactical Operations personnel, and only their commander (Half-Jaw) may have even been informed of their mission. Even if his entire unit knew, it was still a small collection of individuals. They wouldn't be able to hide if they started spreading rumours. Tartarus wouldn't dare rebel against Truth because of Mercy's death (he barely gave it a thought), and his Brutes would hold to their Chieftain unfaltering. Half-Jaw and his Elites could talk freely after the civil war started, of course, but by then it would be moot anyway. The deaths of Mercy and Regret would have went unnoticed and did go unnoticed for very valid reasons. As for moral reasons, Truth was beyond moral objections. He had been lying to the entire Covenant for years and conspiring for greater power just as long.

C) You're underestimating the hatred between the two races. They never were mere competitors, instead opposing racists who were disgusted at the thought of sharing the same union with each other. Even if the betrayal had never happened, the Elites would likely have made war against the Brutes for usurping their place of privilege within the Covenant. Truth knew all of these tensions and decided to replace the Elites with another race, a race with less baggage and a race with less doubts about the Journey. The Covenant had already been attempting to hold the Brutes and Elites together for a long period of time.

D) The amount of Grunts and Hunters that turned were inconsequential, literally footnotes in the history of the war. Nearly all sided with the Brutes, for whatever reasons. And besides, it wasn't actually the Arbiter that turned these small numbers, it was all the work of undisgraced Elites. He only held some measure of respect within a small number of his people (including Half-Jaw). He survived to help life the face of off the conspiracy, but he hardly mobilized the Elites for rebellion. At most he was a whistle-blower, not the one raising the flag and leading the charges.

Except he wasn't, he just got the info during the gravemind incident, and was convinced by that.

As Dax said, that's incorrect. It sowed the seeds of doubt, but he still believed. It was the full extent of the Elite slaughterings and the executions of the Councillors that finally broke him.

 

[Veelk]

It's a game, dude, and there's such a thing called artificial gravity.


To convince him and turn to the Heretic leader's side? It wouldn't have taken a short amount of time.



It made him curious, it filled him with doubt, but it didn't convince him.

And in this game, inertia doesn't exist? What about the rest of physics? Besides, what purpose would artificial gravity serve at a place like that? It's not in space (after all, if it was, what purpose would those cables serve?), so there is no need for artificial gravity, even if it could explain wtf was happening during the 'freefall' stage. And even if it DID explain it, how does a station freefall for 20 minutes? They'd need to be out in space to for it to take that long. Sorry, but none of it makes any sense whatsoever.

Anyway, like you said, he didn't need to be convinced to take their side, just fill him with doubt. If he still wouldn't have let him go after that period, then it's time to shoot, but as it stands, his actions make no sense.

 

[-PXG-]

Halo 2 >>>>> Halo 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Halo 3

for me

 

[Truant]

Bungie should have just had another faction of elites that were opposed to humans. Problem solved.

Man, I should work at Bungal.

 

[Veelk]

A) Not an entire fleet, just a small group of Tactical Operations personnel, and only their commander (Half-Jaw) may have even been informed of their mission. Even if his entire unit knew, it was still a small collection of individuals. They wouldn't be able to hide if they started spreading rumours. Tartarus wouldn't dare rebel against Truth because of Mercy's death (he barely gave it a thought), and his Brutes would hold to their Chieftain unfaltering. Half-Jaw and his Elites could talk freely after the civil war started, of course, but by then it would be moot anyway. The deaths of Mercy and Regret would have went unnoticed and did go unnoticed for very valid reasons. As for moral reasons, Truth was beyond moral objections. He had been lying to the entire Covenant for years and conspiring for greater power just as long.

C) You're underestimating the hatred between the two races. They never were mere competitors, instead opposing racists who were disgusted at the thought of sharing the same union with each other. Even if the betrayal had never happened, the Elites would likely have made war against the Brutes for usurping their place of privilege within the Covenant. Truth knew all of these tensions and decided to replace the Elites with another race, a race with less baggage and a race with less doubts about the Journey. The Covenant had already been attempting to hold the Brutes and Elites together for a long period of time.

D) The amount of Grunts and Hunters that turned were inconsequential, literally footnotes in the history of the war. Nearly all sided with the Brutes, for whatever reasons. And besides, it wasn't actually the Arbiter that turned these small numbers, it was all the work of undisgraced Elites. He only held some measure of respect within a small number of his people (including Half-Jaw). He survived to help life the face of off the conspiracy, but he hardly mobilized the Elites for rebellion. At most he was a whistle-blower, not the one raising the flag and leading the charges.


As Dax said, that's incorrect. It sowed the seeds of doubt, but he still believed. It was the full extent of the Elite slaughterings and the executions of the Councillors that finally broke him.

A. You presume the actions of several, several, several personal. You don't know how many knew, and from the way they talked, it didn't seem that the elites were not going to talk about what happened. Those 2 elites accompanying him could have just as easily been gaurds as much as his other generals. Plus, it's actually really easy to start rumors and then have the origin lost in the shuffle. There is no reason that the news of Mercy's and Truth's deaths wouldn't have atleast been rumored, if not directly outspoken. Also, one common mistake that I find story tellers make when writing different sentient species is that they presume that an entire species has one culture, and everyone in that species follows that one culture. Just think of how diverse we humans are. It's unrealistic to think that other species all have monotonous beliefs and personalities, and it's unrealistic to believe that every brute follows Cheiftains orders like mindslaves. One of them is bound to have some morality and come forth with the truth, and with rumors being what they are, there is NO reason that Truth should have as many supporters as he did in Halo 3 and morale (I meant morale in the last post, I apologize for my typo.) should be at an all time low with the loss of Elites, and several hunters and grunts.

C. I get that they hate each other, but same argument as part A. Not all Brutes are monotonous, proud, egotistical monsters. In fact, I believe the brute from Halo Wars respected Humans a great deal, and this was 20 years before the Schism. Still, even if they did, I am convinced that directing their energy and hate into something competitive would have been much more stable than anything else he could have done, ESPECIALLY betraying the Elites like that. Difference of opinions, I suppose.

D. I actually went to verify that information, and according to halopedia, most Grunts and hunters followed the Seperatists. As for the Arbiter himself, the fact that both hunters and grunts and Elites were willing to follow him while they were all still confused about the situation, plus the respect they showed him while on previous missions, is my evidence that the Arbiter was much more respected than you make him out to be. From what I see, everything leads me to believe that the Arbiter was a powerful symbol, even before the Schism and respected by most Elites, grunts and hunters, enough so that they would follow him if he asked for it. That kind of influence is something Truth should never have gotten rid of.

 

[Subitai]

Have you tried to go back and play Halo 1's Legendary lately? Its much easier than the sequels. It's at about the same level as Halo 2's Heroic was, and Halo 2's Legendary was harder than Halo 1's by a magnitude of about a million (instakill Elite melees, plasma rifles that dropped shields in 2 bolts and fired at a stupidly fast rate), and Halo 3's is somewhere in between. I think that the ease of progression between games was just your skill level with the Halo toolset increasing, honestly.

You're probably right, but I never felt over whelmed or as satisfied in Halo 2. For me it seemed easier to back out and recover from elites and brutes in Halo 2 where elites and even the flood were much more relentless in finding you in your cover. There were certainly rough parts in Halo 2 especially against pilot AI, when you appear right in the middle of Brutes, and against the bosses, but it just seemed slightly more forgiving to me. Anyway, Halo 2 Legendary was much less of a let down than in Halo 3.

 

[The Librarian]

And in this game, inertia doesn't exist? What about the rest of physics? Besides, what purpose would artificial gravity serve at a place like that? It's not in space (after all, if it was, what purpose would those cables serve?), so there is no need for artificial gravity, even if it could explain wtf was happening during the 'freefall' stage.

They were in a gas giant. The gravity there isn't suited for Elites/Humans/brutes/whatever. What does inertia have anything to do with it? I'm assuming the station has inertial dampers.

And even if it DID explain it, how does a station freefall for 20 minutes? They'd need to be out in space to for it to take that long. Sorry, but none of it makes any sense whatsoever.

Where are you getting this twenty minutes from? And it's a game.

Anyway, like you said, he didn't need to be convinced to take their side, just fill him with doubt.

You're overestimating how much doubt he was given. In the end, it was ultimately the action of Truth, taken out by the Brutes, to murder the Elite Councilors, that forced him to turn and finally query Spark.

Honestly, it seems to me that you're creating problems and "holes" where none exist.

Where is Voc when you need him?

 

[Sibylus]

A. You presume the actions of several, several, several personal. You don't know how many knew, and from the way they talked, it didn't seem that the elites were not going to talk about what happened. Plus, it's actually really easy to start rumors and then have the origin lost in the shuffle. There is no reason that the news of Mercy's and Truth's deaths wouldn't have atleast been rumored, if not directly outspoken. Also, one common mistake that I find story tellers make when writing different sentient species is that they presume that an entire species has one culture, and everyone in that species follows that one culture. Just think of how diverse we humans are. It's unrealistic to think that other species all have monotonous beliefs and personalities, and it's unrealistic to believe that every brute follows Cheiftains orders like mindslaves. One of them is bound to have some morality and come forth with the truth, and with rumors being what they are, there is NO reason that Truth should have as many supporters as he did in Halo 3 and morale (I meant morale in the last post, I apologize for my typo.) should be at an all time low with the loss of Elites, and several hunters and grunts.

C. I get that they hate each other, but same argument as part A. Not all Brutes are monotonous, proud, egotistical monsters. In fact, I believe the brute from Halo Wars respected Humans a great deal, and this was 20 years before the Schism. Still, even if they did, I am convinced that directing their energy and hate into something competitive would have been much more stable than anything else he could have done, ESPECIALLY betraying the Elites like that. Difference of opinions, I suppose.

D. I actually went to verify that information, and according to halopedia, most Grunts and hunters followed the Seperatists. As for the Arbiter himself, the fact that both hunters and grunts and Elites were willing to follow him while they were all still confused about the situation, plus the respect they showed him while on previous missions, is my evidence that the Arbiter was much more respected than you make him out to be. From what I see, everything leads me to believe that the Arbiter was a powerful symbol, even before the Schism and respected by most Elites, grunts and hunters, enough so that they would follow him if he asked for it. That kind of influence is something Truth should never have gotten rid of.

A) I can guess at how many knew, and it was not a great amount. Spec-Ops in dropships, in all likelihood wouldn't be more than a few hundred individuals. In an empire of millions, that's peanuts. Spreading "heresy" about a Prophet would easily warrant death penalties as far as everyone else was concerned, and the collective deaths of the entire unit could be justified. Truth knew who knew what had happened on Delta Halo, it would be a simple matter to kill all of them and catch up to the rumour-spreader in the process.

You may be right about the cultural homogeneity, but that's simply how the Brutes were written. Chieftains are the "leaders" of the Brutes in the Covenant, second only to the Prophets themselves. Tartarus being perhaps the mightiest and most senior of all the Chieftains, his Brutes would most assuredly not betray his trust and spread rumours about the Prophet. They wouldn't think they were doing the wrong thing morally, indoctrination from birth tends to do that.

C) Not all Brutes are monsters, but not all Elites are noble either. Fact is, the primary factor in the civil war was because of racial tensions. Most of the Elites probably still believed in the Great Journey, they wouldn't have had time to be exposed to many Heretic or Human ideas. The Elites didn't go to war because they all decided the Great Journey was a hoax, they went at it because they saw their old enemies-in-friends-clothing usurping their place within the Covenant. Truth knew that if this was going to happen, it could be disastrous, he probably figured it was inevitable too. Perhaps he felt that starting the war in a controlled conspiracy would be preferable to letting nature eventually sparking things on its own.

D) I don't really find that information reputable, it's unsourced and seems somewhat speculative (Which is fine in a discussion, not a wiki). What we know from the games (the definitive canon), is that aside from a few Grunts and Hunters in Halo 2, all future Grunts and Hunters encountered are unambiguously aligned with Brutes and the Loyalist cause. There is nothing in the games to suggest that most of the Grunts and Hunters broke away. I remember reading this wiki information before Halo 3 was released, and by all indications it looked like it was going to turn out correct. There's a blurb on this inconsistency in the discussion section.

The Arbiter may have wielded great respect had he continued fighting for the Prophets, but at the time Truth moved against him, there were few who would have missed him. As far as bad-guy logic goes, betraying the Arbiter once he's served his use isn't all that hard to grasp.

 

[soldat7]

Bungie should have just had another faction of elites that were opposed to humans. Problem solved.

Once again, I agree.

 

[Sibylus]

Once again, I agree.

Would agree with this as well. Appealing not only from a gameplay pov, but from a story pov as well.

 

[godhandiscen]

These are the categories that matter to me and this is how they rank.

History: 2 >3 > 1
Gameplay: 3 > 1 > 2
Multiplayer: 3 > 2 > 1
Atmosphere: 1 > 3 > 2

 

[FiRez]

Halo is pretty much dead to me, only a remake of H:CE would make me feel entusiastic about the franchise again, but as far as campaign goes

Halo: Combat Evolved (most appropiate subtitle ever) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3>2

Bungie are the wachowski bros. of the VG industry

 

[The Librarian]

Halo is pretty much dead to me, only a remake of H:CE would make me feel entusiastic about the franchise again, but as far as campaign goes

Halo: Combat Evolved >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3>2

Bungie are the wachowski bros. of the VG industry

I don't really understand how you can like Halo but not like at least one of the two other main games. What's so different from Halo that sets itself apart and is so much more enjoyable that you don't enjoy the other two?

 

[Dead Man Typing]

When you played as The Arbiter, in Halo 2, you should have fought against some humans. Not the Chief, but actually a few encouters against the Marines would have made for a great change of pace instead of fighting Heretic Covenant and the Flood.

 

[godhandiscen]

BTW, for the next Xbox, they should remake the Halo Trilogy. I would be all over it.

I don't really understand how you can like Halo but not like at least one of the two other main games. What's so different from Halo that sets itself apart and is so much more enjoyable that you don't enjoy the other two?

The atmosphere. Halo 2 and 3 lost the "feel" of Halo 1.

 

[macksplack]

combat evolved was the best single player of the 3 halo's. Don't know which was crappier 2 or 3, i think halo 2 was.

 

[The Librarian]

The atmosphere. Halo 2 and 3 lost the "feel" of Halo 1.

That alone is not enough to dislike Halo 2 and 3, and 2 has pretty good atmosphere.

 

[FiRez]

I don't really understand how you can like Halo but not like at least one of the two other main games. What's so different from Halo that sets itself apart and is so much more enjoyable that you don't enjoy the other two?

Halo:CE was a groundbreaking game, it had it all (engaging gameplay, varied and fun battles, atmosphere, music, graphics, awesome flow and pacing of the campaign mode, etc... the game was pretty much perfect when it was released, I basically loved the feeling of being an army of one without compromise of the challenge factor)

Halo 2 was very derivative and generic, the feedback of the gunplay was lost because the game has a very annoying floaty feeling on everything, the pacing of the levels felt broken, etc.

Halo 3, tried to fix the gameplay making it more like Halo:CE but the campaign had the same faults of the past game: boring missions and encounters, lackluster pacing, somehow better level design than Halo 2 but the game was no where near at the same quality level of H:CE, etc

The atmosphere. Halo 2 and 3 lost the "feel" of Halo 1.

I agree, is hard to explain if you didn't play the game in its time I guess, but the music, universe and gameplay of Halo:CE was the perfect mix of factors that happens once in a generation and makes a long lasting impression in the player.

as far as FPS goes, the only game that gave me this feeling was HL2 + its episodes.

 

[StoOgE]

Halo 2 is a tighter shooter than Halo 1 with less backtracking and boring level designs.

Halo 1 has moments where it absolutely shines. These moments are the best the series has ever been. But it has entire levels of tedium. Really about the halfway point in the game it takes a massive downshift in fun. Halo 2 and Halo 3 managed to keep the pace going throughout for me.

I also think people tend to remember the fun open areas of Halo: CE and not the mind numbing repetitive parts that the sequels managed to avoid.

Halo 2's biggest sin was being too much of a corridor shooter. It was a very good corridor shooter, but it's not what people wanted from Halo.

Halo 1 was a great open environment shooter and a passable corridor shooter. But it has too much corridor and not enough awesome open environments... which were heavily front loaded in the game.

Halo 3 was as good of a corridor shooter as Halo 2 with more open environments like Halo: CE had. I haven't replayed this game as recently as the other two so I'm withholding final judgement.. but IMO the series progressively got better.

 

[The Librarian]

Halo 3, tried to fix the gameplay making it more like Halo:CE but the campaign had the same faults of the past game: boring missions and encounters, lackluster pacing, somehow better level design than Halo 2 but the game was no where near at the same quality level of H:CE, etc

Boring missions and encounters? Like what? Other than Cortana and maybe Sierra 117, Halo 3 has a lot of fun levels. And what lackluster pacing? The Covenant, The Ark, and The Storm are all really awesome levels that deserve recognition.

You also say "etc," what else?

I also think people tend to remember the fun open areas of Halo: CE and not the mind number repetitive parts that the sequels managed to avoid.

Speaking for myself, but that isn't how it is for me. People say that a lot of parts on AotCR were repetitive, and while that's true, that didn't make them any less fun.

 

[StoOgE]

Speaking for myself, but that isn't how it is for me. People say that a lot of parts on AotCR were repetitive, and while that's true, that didn't make them any less fun.

I think one of the problems with those rooms in the middle of AotCR and Two Betrayals is they almost identical. Both in look and how they played. The rooms were actually designed differently.. but the smart tactical approach was to walk around the long hallway surrounding the center room.. which made them play nearly identical. That and there were like 8 of them.

I didn't remember that area of the game going on so long, but when I replayed it it just kept going and going and going. If they had cut that in half it would have been a much stronger level.

And the entire back half of Halo:CE is retracing steps you've already been to.. with the added benefit of killing flood. And Halo 1 flood is pretty boring. They did a lot more with the Flood AI in Halo 2 and Halo 3 which make them more fun to fight (other than Cortana, holy fuck did I hate that level).

I enjoyed Halo CE.. but it is a very front heavy game.

Halo, Silent Cartographer and Assault on the Control Room are heads and shoulders above any other level in the game. And they are levels 2, 3 and 4.

Guilty Spark is a pretty decent level.... especially the end when you make your way to the library. The Library is a snooze fest for me, and then you are simply repeating levels you have already seen.. but backwards and with flood.

Edit: the back levels of Halo:CE also have the grunts with energy cannons.. and elites that can tag you with grenades way too easily which leads to some frustrating moments.

 

[FiRez]

Boring missions and encounters? Like what? Other than Cortana and maybe Sierra 117, Halo 3 has a lot of fun levels. And what lackluster pacing? The Covenant, The Ark, and The Storm are all really awesome levels that deserve recognition.

You also say "etc," what else?


Speaking for myself, but that isn't how it is for me. People say that a lot of parts on AotCR were repetitive, and while that's true, that didn't make them any less fun.

That Cortana level was probably one of the worst levels that I've played in a FPS game, damn you for bring it back to my memories :lol, but yes overall it was a better game than Halo 2: I liked the vehicle sections, highcharity, when you land on the other Halo (i don't remeber the level's name) and the others were Ok, I guess
I can say that if the game had another name I would classify it as "good" game (7-8/10), the co-op over system link made it a lot better (I only played some levels in this mode), but I didn't bother to finish it again.

Also the music was very un-impressive most of the good tracks where just arranged or remixed versions of old tracks

 

[Shake Appeal]

Sorry if I rambled.. I do love me some Halo.

I agreed with all of your post. I would also add that Halo 3 is by far my favourite, and the one that affected me emotionally (lol) the most.

Also it's probably the one I have spent the most time with, all told.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

I agree, is hard to explain if you didn't play the game in its time I guess, but the music, universe and gameplay of Halo:CE was the perfect mix of factors that happens once in a generation and makes a long lasting impression in the player.

Location had a lot to do with that. Both sequels suffered from feeling scattered in many ways, but the constant location hopping, often to drab and confusing locations, had the biggest impact. Emerging on the Halo landscape was something else, and that feeling remained all throughout the game, from the island to the snowy canyons. Whenever you looked up, the Halo was there, surrounding you. It was pure sci-fi, but it felt more tangible than the New Mombasa or the various Halo-like incarnations in the sequels.

 

[The Librarian]

I think one of the problems with those rooms in the middle of AotCR and Two Betrayals is they almost identical. Both in look and how they played. The rooms were actually designed differently.. but the smart tactical approach was to walk around the long hallway surrounding the center room.. which made them play nearly identical. That and there were like 8 of them.

I'd use the center room all the time, and there were several different "rooms," though all were repeated.

I didn't remember that area of the game going on so long, but when I replayed it it just kept going and going and going. If they had cut that in half it would have been a much stronger level.

Guilty Spark is a pretty decent level.... especially the end when you make your way to the library.

Guilty Spark is far more than a decent level. It is a superb level, and one of the most atmospheric levels in the Halo series. It's by far the best Flood level (helps that the big reveal occurs on this). You're also essentially exploring a Forerunner laboratory, and that's icing on the cake.

The Maw is a really good level too, and so is Two Betrayals if only for the last battle alone, but neither are as good as Guilty Spark.

 

[Sibylus]

343 Guilty Spark is pretty much the best Flood level in the entire series.

 

[StoOgE]

The Maw is a really good level too, and so is Two Betrayals if only for the last battle alone, but neither are as good as Guilty Spark.

The maw has a good ending to it, and the fight with the hunters is pretty damn good in close quarters + no heavy weapons.

However, the last "fight" with Guilty Spark is pretty weak on the replay. Other than the first time you clear the ramps to get to the second and third levels it is surprising how much the flood and sentinels leave you alone in there. They should have gone for crazy over the top when you try and knock the last engine out.. like have some hunters and marines burst through the door and turn it into a crazy 4 way fight.

I hate to keep 'putting down' Halo:CE because it is one of my favorite games of all time.. I just think it had some big short comings that Halo 2 improved upon.

 

[StoOgE]

Location had a lot to do with that. Both sequels suffered from feeling scattered in many ways, but the constant location hopping, often to drab and confusing locations, had the biggest impact. Emerging on the Halo landscape was something else, and that feeling remained all throughout the game, from the island to the snowy canyons. Whenever you looked up, the Halo was there, surrounding you. It was pure sci-fi, but it felt more tangible than the New Mombasa or the various Halo-like incarnations in the sequels.

Halo 3 didn't really have location hopping. You start out on Earth.. then you go to the Ark and that is it.

Halo 2 was the one with some location hopping.. although even that wasn't a horrible offender.

Earth, The planet next to the first Halo (all blown up), Halo Delta.. and then high charity floating above Halo Delta.

2 certainly lost some focus because they took the story from a pretty straightforward one in Halo:CE to space opera. That is pretty much inevitable in any story that begins as a big mystery. As you unravel the layers of mystery and reveal the story the tone will change.

 

[Ten-Song]

Halo 2's pacing was kind of all over the place, mostly because of the narrative switching between Chief and Arbiter. That didn't really bother me too much, but it did feel kind of weird at the time. Halo 3 had the pacing I WISH Halo 2 had. A good amount struggling to defend Earth (and Floodgate was an awesome way to end it) and then you hop on over to the Ark to finish shit up. I also felt the Ark brought back a lot of that weird mystery feeling, but not too much, as the game then had to quickly tell you what it was, where, and why, thanks to it being the last game in the trilogy.

I still found it awesome the first time I was on the first level on the Ark, looked up, and saw the Milky Way in the sky. Bungie does fucking AMAZING sky boxes.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Halo 2's pacing was kind of all over the place, mostly because of the narrative switching between Chief and Arbiter. That didn't really bother me too much, but it did feel kind of weird at the time. Halo 3 had the pacing I WISH Halo 2 had. A good amount struggling to defend Earth (and Floodgate was an awesome way to end it) and then you hop on over to the Ark to finish shit up. I also felt the Ark brought back a lot of that weird mystery feeling, but not too much, as the game then had to quickly tell you what it was, where, and why, thanks to it being the last game in the trilogy.

I still found it awesome the first time I was on the first level on the Ark, looked up, and saw the Milky Way in the sky. Bungie does fucking AMAZING sky boxes.

It also has great pacing both inside individual levels, and in the overall arc of the game (up to a point). The Storm is a perfect example (and still my favorite level in the series), seamlessly alternating mid-sized infantry battles with huge outdoor vehicular brawls. The big sequence in the lake bed on the Mongoose, rockets in tow, followed by the Scarab encounter is the perfect example of Halo 3's deep encounter design. Follow with some short but intense close quarters combat against a few Brute packs, a nasty Hunter encounter, and then ramp back up through a few waves of Covenant climaxing with the huge shootout under the AA gun.

And on the overall arc of the game, the scale of combat keeps ramping up. The vehicle battle in Tsavo Highway feels epic, until that Scarab encounter in The Storm. Floodgate is a perfect break before the The Arc, which starts with sniping and ramps into tanks beating everything, before winding down into a series of infantry encounters. And then the Covenant ramps it up further with the Hornet sequences and the big two-Scarab encounter, followed by the brief team-up with the Flood. The entire game has this ebb and flow, gradually ramping up to that climax. I think it goes downhill from there, how do you follow The Ark and The Covenant? With Cortana), but that seven-mission ramp up is just masterful, and something neither of the previous games came close to pulling off.

 

[Ten-Song]

It also has great pacing both inside individual levels, and in the overall arc of the game (up to a point). The Storm is a perfect example (and still my favorite level in the series), seamlessly alternating mid-sized infantry battles with huge outdoor vehicular brawls. The big sequence in the lake bed on the Mongoose, rockets in tow, followed by the Scarab encounter is the perfect example of Halo 3's deep encounter design. Follow with some short but intense close quarters combat against a few Brute packs, a nasty Hunter encounter, and then ramp back up through a few waves of Covenant climaxing with the huge shootout under the AA gun.

And on the overall arc of the game, the scale of combat keeps ramping up. The vehicle battle in Tsavo Highway feels epic, until that Scarab encounter in The Storm. Floodgate is a perfect break before the The Arc, which starts with sniping and ramps into tanks beating everything, before winding down into a series of infantry encounters. And then the Covenant ramps it up further with the Hornet sequences and the big two-Scarab encounter, followed by the brief team-up with the Flood. The entire game has this ebb and flow, gradually ramping up to that climax. I think it goes downhill from there, how do you follow The Ark and The Covenant? With Cortana), but that seven-mission ramp up is just masterful, and something neither of the previous games came close to pulling off.

Well, Cortana was annoying, but I felt the pacing was redeemed by letting me murder Spark, and then calling back to the Warthog escape from Halo 1, only making it more insane by having the entire ring around you exploding. Four player co-op on that last level, trying to keep 2 Warthogs with people in them from not slamming into each other and falling off the level, is as difficult as it is amusing.

 

[VGChampion]

My biggest disappointment with Halo 3 is something I don't see talked about much. The change in the Prophet of Truth's voice. His voice in Halo 2 was one of the coolest voices in video games and they went and changed it in Halo 3 to a raspier, not as appealing voice.

Nice thread though. The Halo series is one of my all time favorite series ever. Spent more time with these games last generation than any other game ever probably. Halo sites were all I would go to back then. HBO, RVB, Bungie, all those miscellaneous sites like Bloodgulch to watch Halo videos on. Those were the days. Nice to see a fresh take on the series though.

 

[Sibylus]

My biggest disappointment with Halo 3 is something I don't see talked about much. The change in the Prophet of Truth's voice. His voice in Halo 2 was one of the coolest voices in video games and they went and changed it in Halo 3 to a raspier, not as appealing voice.

Not just the voice, Bungie also reduced the character to a mindless, dogmatic shadow of his former self. Halo 3's Truth was about as cunning as a Grunt Deacon.

 

[Veelk]

A) I can guess at how many knew, and it was not a great amount. Spec-Ops in dropships, in all likelihood wouldn't be more than a few hundred individuals. In an empire of millions, that's peanuts. Spreading "heresy" about a Prophet would easily warrant death penalties as far as everyone else was concerned, and the collective deaths of the entire unit could be justified. Truth knew who knew what had happened on Delta Halo, it would be a simple matter to kill all of them and catch up to the rumour-spreader in the process.

You may be right about the cultural homogeneity, but that's simply how the Brutes were written. Chieftains are the "leaders" of the Brutes in the Covenant, second only to the Prophets themselves. Tartarus being perhaps the mightiest and most senior of all the Chieftains, his Brutes would most assuredly not betray his trust and spread rumours about the Prophet. They wouldn't think they were doing the wrong thing morally, indoctrination from birth tends to do that.

C) Not all Brutes are monsters, but not all Elites are noble either. Fact is, the primary factor in the civil war was because of racial tensions. Most of the Elites probably still believed in the Great Journey, they wouldn't have had time to be exposed to many Heretic or Human ideas. The Elites didn't go to war because they all decided the Great Journey was a hoax, they went at it because they saw their old enemies-in-friends-clothing usurping their place within the Covenant. Truth knew that if this was going to happen, it could be disastrous, he probably figured it was inevitable too. Perhaps he felt that starting the war in a controlled conspiracy would be preferable to letting nature eventually sparking things on its own.

D) I don't really find that information reputable, it's unsourced and seems somewhat speculative (Which is fine in a discussion, not a wiki). What we know from the games (the definitive canon), is that aside from a few Grunts and Hunters in Halo 2, all future Grunts and Hunters encountered are unambiguously aligned with Brutes and the Loyalist cause. There is nothing in the games to suggest that most of the Grunts and Hunters broke away. I remember reading this wiki information before Halo 3 was released, and by all indications it looked like it was going to turn out correct. There's a blurb on this inconsistency in the discussion section.

The Arbiter may have wielded great respect had he continued fighting for the Prophets, but at the time Truth moved against him, there were few who would have missed him. As far as bad-guy logic goes, betraying the Arbiter once he's served his use isn't all that hard to grasp.

Sorry the reply took so long, but hey, college is a bitch.

A. How many knew and did not know is nothing but pure speculation on your part. Mine too, because they never said, but I cannot think of a reason why Elite Shipmasters would not inform their crew about the utter importance of this mission. And if Truth forbid them and then told them to pull out....I'm pretty sure they'd put 2 and 2 together, that truth wanted them to have Regret killed. Even if the elite ships were not told what the full mission, it wouldn't have taken a genius to figure out why they were going to Delta Halo, where a Prophet was known to be, with a fleet ready to fight. And, again rumors spread very easily, the origin almost always gets lost in the crowd. And you think truth would kill a whole fleet to stop one rumor? When word of this massacre got out, they would ask why he'd be so desperate to shut them up, and if they didn't find out the truth, even more fanatical rumors would spread. And, I'm sorry, but it isn't heresy to say "I heard that so and so, can you believe that shit? Haha"

And as to the way the Brutes were portrayed, all bungie sources tell us that the flood are far more coordinated now that they have a gravemind to give commands, but none of these tactics are apparent in gameplay. Same thing here, just because we aren't shown that because those particular brutes who are not part of the story, that doesn't mean they don't exist. And they don't even have to spread those rumors for morality reasons, it could be that one gets drunk and tells his buddies or another is a double agent or maybe they just didn't know it was suppose to be a secret because he is retarded. All sorts of possible reasons. And, honestly, just so you know, if you slay a person because he's saying a rumor, all that does is give is give power to the rumor. If Truth is any smart at all, he'd scoff and say that it's ridiculous and not pay it any thought afterwards. Except the things he did have numerous eye witnesses and can be proven easily.....so yeah, no matter what truth does, he shouldn't be able to hide everything he did or have that sort of unwavering loyalty from the Covenant. Which is why I really can't say that the story of Halo 2 is good, because it doesn't make any sense at too many points.

C. I was under the impression that they went to war with the Covenant because Truth ordered all those things and the fact that their bitter rivals were the ones that did it was just a perk because now they have an excuse to kill those Brute bastards. And even if the civil war was inevitable, that doesn't mean igniting it yourself is reasonable. Assuming that the competition wouldn't work longterm, I'm sure it'd work atleast for a time because at the moment, they had a common enemy: The Humans. Even the most bitter of enemies can work together to vanquish a common foe. If a civil war was going to happen, it would have happened AFTER the humans have been defeated, when the common enemy no longer existed. But, of course, that would have been inconsequential as the Journey would have been completed at that point. Instead, he betrayed the Elites, which not only gave the humans extra manpower and allowed them to be on the same level as the Covenant technologically (Something not apparent in the game, but it's the logical thing that should happen), plus it crippled the Covenant's military by quite a lot, whether you count the grunts or hunters or not.

D. It's not repututable, but what source have you gotten saying that it was a small fraction? The lack of ally grunts and Hunters in Halo 3 were most likely due to gameplay reasons, that bungie didn't want to confuse players by giving them ally and enemies that looked exactly alike. And Master Cheif really didn't ally with Separatists that much anyway, so it's not like we saw their inner workings to see if it was alot of hunters and grunts, or a few. There is no indication otherwise, but consider that every hunter and grunt who saw the Arbiter immediately allied himself with him. If they are that quick to jump aboard with him, I'd say he has a good deal of influence.

And if the Arbiter had a great respect following him, then he clearly was not useless. He was a hero to the people, and a great morale booster, and having him killed would only bring that morale down. Remember, regardless of whether or not people valued THIS arbiter, the armor he wears symbolizes what saved the covenant many times ever, and to see him on the side of the enemy would be like seeing the entire Marines Corps join terrorists. This does not seem to happen, but I don't understand why it shouldn't given that we have already established how much of the Covenant respects him and follows him. Again, Halo 2's story makes no sense from my perspective.

Halo 2's pacing was kind of all over the place, mostly because of the narrative switching between Chief and Arbiter. That didn't really bother me too much, but it did feel kind of weird at the time.

I wouldn't say it felt wierd, but I do feel that it is the mirror opposite of Halo 3's pacing, where the beginning was fantastic, but then it degraded more and more as it went along, before finishing up with a somewhat good level.

And on the overall arc of the game, the scale of combat keeps ramping up. The vehicle battle in Tsavo Highway feels epic, until that Scarab encounter in The Storm. Floodgate is a perfect break before the The Arc, which starts with sniping and ramps into tanks beating everything, before winding down into a series of infantry encounters. And then the Covenant ramps it up further with the Hornet sequences and the big two-Scarab encounter, followed by the brief team-up with the Flood. The entire game has this ebb and flow, gradually ramping up to that climax. I think it goes downhill from there, how do you follow The Ark and The Covenant? With Cortana), but that seven-mission ramp up is just masterful, and something neither of the previous games came close to pulling off.

Indeed, the Ramp up was great, you know what should have happened?

A large area High Charity level with a small team of both Elites and Humans. After a long thread of awesome environments, it should have ended with a gravemind boss battle where your goal is not to defeat him, but dig into the core reactor where Cortana is and then destroy the reactors and then run out of there.

With the final level, I always felt that the fight up the control room was very repetitive, so I'd extend the beginning of the level, make it something like Two Betrayals, make the fight up the Control tower a bit more varied somehow, then have the level proceed the way it did in the game, with you shooting Guilty spark and then escaping on the warthog.

If anyone else has other suggestions to add to this, please feel free.

 

[Sibylus]

Ugh, must save some walls of text for the gaf writing challenge. I did read all of your post, though.

Your idea would be neat, but it should totally have activating the reactor be the end goal of the entire game, suicide mission to save the universe ending in a shower of light.

 

[Forkball]

I thought Halo 1 had the best campaign. Two's was fairly forgettable and Three was a clusterfuck of nonsense. The last few levels of Halo 1 were rather irritating though. I wouldn't really consider any of them to be good campaigns, they are merely tolerable in Co-Op. Thank god the game has great multiplayer.

 

[Veelk]

Ugh, must save some walls of text for the gaf writing challenge. I did read all of your post, though.

Your idea would be neat, but it should totally have activating the reactor be the end goal of the entire game, suicide mission to save the universe ending in a shower of light.

It really depends on how they present it, but I would totally miss the warthog drive at the end. Besides, I love the snowy environments and the Halo architecture. As I said, I'd make it longer and better. A final suicide to save the universe like that would be an interesting possibility though.

Edit: Also, sorry about the wall of text, I just usually have alot to say. Atleast I use all that space substantially and don't just fluff it out, right?

 

[Sibylus]

Addendum to my idea: Then have the last level or something be Arbiter's entirely, where he seals the Ark and surrounding space into an impenetrable spacetime strait-jacket, trapping himself and all the remaining Flood.

 

[Stinkles]

WALL OF TEXT.

If only a Novel and Anime anthology would show up to answer or explore some of these questions.

 

[Veelk]

Eh. Your ideas aren't bad, but they seem to be more story based, which I honestly don't care for in Halo. I'd want them to change the last 2 levels to make it more epic gameplay-wise, and to not have them stop that epic ramp they have been going on for, while you seem to be more focused on making the final levels more pyrrhic, similiar to the original Halo. I understand your direction with it, but I can't support because gameplay always comes first in my Halo.

 

[SA-X]

Again, this is the general argument I hear, that Halo 3 is more balanced, has more weapons, more features, etc, but the majority still consider Halo 2 better. The only argument I have ever heard on this front is that the Halo 2 maps are better, but is that really the only reason, or can someone offer a better explanation of why Halo 2 is widely considered to be the better multiplayer game?

You don't need a better explanation, maps are the most important part of any multiplayer shooter. If the level designs are boring the game won't be fun to play no matter how great the rest of the game is. And the Halo game's strict matchmaking only makes the ratio of good maps to bad maps even more important, and Halo 2 takes a gigantic shit on Halo 3 in that regard.

Single Player (basing on gameplay / level design / atmosphere because the story / characters in Halo range from bland to terrible):
Halo 3 - Wonderful campaign, I loved using equipment in the tight corridor battles and the vehicle levels were just epic, by far the best.
Halo 1 - Great campaign as well but shows its age a bit compared to Halo 3. Still great fun though.
Halo 2 - Absolute garbage. I don't know how but they even managed to make the vehicle portions boring in this game. God this was shit.

Multiplayer
Halo 2 - Awesome maps, just a total blast to play if you stuck to the social playlists to avoid the cheaters and rank happy douches.
Halo 1 - Lots of fun but the most unbalanced. The ratio of good maps to shit maps isn't that great either but the good maps are really good, and with no matchmaking the ratio didn't matter as much.
Halo 3 - Beautifully decorated maps that are just aren't very fun to play in, and most of the additions that helped make the campaign more fun to play didn't really make multiplayer any better.

I'd say Halo 1 is the best because its the only one of the three that has both good single player and multiplayer, whereas the other two are opposite extremes.

 

[Sibylus]

Eh. Your ideas aren't bad, but they seem to be more story based, which I honestly don't care for in Halo. I'd want them to change the last 2 levels to make it more epic gameplay-wise, and to not have them stop that epic ramp they have been going on for, while you seem to be more focused on making the final levels more pyrrhic, similiar to the original Halo. I understand your direction with it, but I can't support because gameplay always comes first in my Halo.

Mmm, pyhrric, I like that word. But yea, Halo 3 killed off the wrong people (the characters were too shallow and underdeveloped for starters).

 

[Veelk]

Mmm, pyhrric, I like that word. But yea, Halo 3 killed off the wrong people (the characters were too shallow and underdeveloped for starters).

And lets not forget the way they sodomized one certain character before killing him off. Poor Johnson...

 

[FiRez]

Location had a lot to do with that. Both sequels suffered from feeling scattered in many ways, but the constant location hopping, often to drab and confusing locations, had the biggest impact. Emerging on the Halo landscape was something else, and that feeling remained all throughout the game, from the island to the snowy canyons. Whenever you looked up, the Halo was there, surrounding you. It was pure sci-fi, but it felt more tangible than the New Mombasa or the various Halo-like incarnations in the sequels.

yep, you nailed it

 

[The Librarian]

343 Guilty Spark is pretty much the best Flood level in the entire series.

Definitely.

If only a Novel and Anime anthology would show up to answer or explore some of these questions.

:lol

If only...

 

[Booshka]

Definitely.


:lol

If only...

Which is why I kind of space out on Halo's story in general. If the story can't be presented so that it's interesting and mysterious but also cohesive so that it makes sense in the context of the gameplay, than I'll just focus on the gameplay and forget the story. It's kind of a silly thing to say, that if you want to know the story of a game you have to go to outside sources to learn about it, or for it to even make sense.

Halo is pretty good about giving you some context for what you are doing for people who are only casually interested in the story, but then it overburdens you with jargon and is just generally overly complicated, to the point that you stop caring all together (or at least I did). I like what Halo CE did with the story, it was mostly mysterious and vague, but you had pretty clear objectives to what you were doing in every level, why you were doing it and what it would lead to in the future. I guess I just like the simplicity of Halo CE in general, story, weapons, game mechanics, etc. It was relatively simple, but had lots of depth and more freedom, because of the wide spaces and multiple approaches.

I'm being pretty harsh on the sequels and I'm not really backing up my points, it all just comes down to how it feels, the experience of my inputs on the controller to what the feedback of the game is, and somehow that feedback is deficient in 2 and 3. I explained a little bit about why I dislike 2 and 3 on page 2 of the thread, so I'm not going to get into again, or even attempt to explain my stance further.

Spoiler

because I don't really care enough to go into it.

 

[Stinkles]

Which is why I kind of space out on Halo's story in general. If the story can't be presented so that it's interesting and mysterious but also cohesive so that it makes sense in the context of the gameplay, than I'll just focus on the gameplay and forget the story.

What you say is fair and makes sense, but the two Anthologies I mentioned add to, rather than fill in. They are new stories that will certainly provide outside context for some of those events. But philosophically I agree 100%. Stories should contain everything that the audience needs to understand and enjoy them.

Job 1.

 

[Zabka]

I don't really understand how you can like Halo but not like at least one of the two other main games. What's so different from Halo that sets itself apart and is so much more enjoyable that you don't enjoy the other two?

Halo 1 had great, powerful weapons. Everything boomed with authority, especially grenades. The physics system, while not as technically advanced, was a lot more fun. The graphics weren't as detailed texture wise, but everything looked smoother and had really awesome effects. Where did all the wonderful glowing shinyness go?

The best example for the art is comparing the plasma rifle in Halo and Halo 2. In Halo, it's very smooth with a reflective sheen, plus the heavy glow of the energy made it really interesting looking. In Halo 2 it looked blockier and flat. All the style was sucked out of it.

The Brutes were lame in Halo 2.

Also, chain grenade explosions rocked.