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Mac Hardware and Software |OT| - All things Macintosh

Chris R

Member
Take a picture.

I'd love to replace my mini's HDD with an SSD but all the steps keep me from attempting it.

I just looked at a guide, it doesn't seem that bad at all assuming you have the right screwdrivers on hand. At least you don't need a putty knife anymore :|

edit: About the drive not fitting, does Apple use the 7mm drives or 9.5mm? That might explain why things aren't fitting.
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
I just looked at a guide, it doesn't seem that bad at all assuming you have the right screwdrivers on hand. At least you don't need a putty knife anymore :|
I remember that old design. So hard to open even with the putty knives. The new one is so much better. Though when I got it it was so hard to spin initially because it was so tight.

One day I want to do it. I'd get a cheap SSD with a small amount of space (Don't need much inside the machine itself) and hopefully get a lot more life out of it. It's 3 years old, but it's been super slow since forever. The HDD is so terrible. I've said it before but they need to release a Mac mini with everything they learned with the Air. Smaller, sleeker, faster. But keep it $600. (Guess it's too much to wish they'd go back to $500. But if there was a $600 option with Flash I'd be happy.)
 

japtor

Member
I just looked at a guide, it doesn't seem that bad at all assuming you have the right screwdrivers on hand. At least you don't need a putty knife anymore :|

edit: About the drive not fitting, does Apple use the 7mm drives or 9.5mm? That might explain why things aren't fitting.
9.5mm.

The main possible snags I heard of (and/or saw myself) were:
- The fan cowling being kind of a pain to pull out
- Antenna plate also being a bit annoying, particularly since it's lightweight and you have to be gentle with it
- Cramped space to pull the drive out and stick the new one in

If you take your time and be cautious about everything (keep track of all the different screws!) it's not too bad, assuming you have the right screwdrivers and spudger/tiny flathead to pop off little connectors here and there (making sure you're not actually damaging said connectors). I didn't have a board removal tool myself, but was able to do that part with a pair of small screwdrivers.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
It kind of goes without saying, but get a set of screwdrivers that have magnetic tips. I can't imagine doing comp tinkering without that.
 

evlcookie

but ever so delicious
No, it will not snap the drive in to the back and have it lay flat, and after numerous attempts I just left it alone. The only reason I decided to do it myself is because back in 2011, only the $799 model offered an SSD and it was $600 to upgrade. In 2012, the cost dropped to $300 on the same model. Now if I buy one, it's only $200 to upgrade.

Did you actually pull the logic board out at all or did you try and simply shove the HDD into the original HDD spot?

There's 2 small holes where the screws on the SSD/HDD sit within the casing, Which allows it to sit correctly. If you don't get it in those then it can be a bit wonky.

The original screws from the HDD should actually fit on the SSD. Then it's just a matter of getting it lined up right and pushing a bit. The sata cable and temp sensor can also cause small issues with lining it up but it should not be that hard.
 
Did you actually pull the logic board out at all or did you try and simply shove the HDD into the original HDD spot?

There's 2 small holes where the screws on the SSD/HDD sit within the casing, Which allows it to sit correctly. If you don't get it in those then it can be a bit wonky.

The original screws from the HDD should actually fit on the SSD. Then it's just a matter of getting it lined up right and pushing a bit. The sata cable and temp sensor can also cause small issues with lining it up but it should not be that hard.

Yeah I didn't move the logic board. Here's a link to the video I watched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymGnXdwvabg
 
Hey,

I have this problem that the music playing on iTunes won't be paused anymore after unplugging headphones and I can't find the "toggle" in the settings.
I hope my jack isn't broken or it could be that I imagined this kind of feature.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Hey,

I have this problem that the music playing on iTunes won't be paused anymore after unplugging headphones and I can't find the "toggle" in the settings.
I hope my jack isn't broken or it could be that I imagined this kind of feature.

I've never noticed that in iTunes on Mac. The iPhone pauses playback after you remove the headphone jack, but not older iPods (my Classic doesn't.)
 
I've never noticed that in iTunes on Mac. The iPhone pauses playback after you remove the headphone jack, but not older iPods (my Classic doesn't.)

It seems that the Mac uses two different volume settings. On for the headphone jack and the other for the built-in speakers. After (un)plugging the headphones the mac will use the appropriate setting.
 

X-Frame

Member
I'm in the market for a bigger External HDD, does anyone have any recommendations?

Right now I have a 1 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro, which is great and I haven't had any problems except that sometimes it doesn't show up in the Finder, but I need a lot more space. I am thinking 3-4 TB now.

Just browsing OWC's website, I found their MiniStack MAX to be particularly interesting. A lot of space and a Blu-Ray reader, which is something I could see myself using on my computer sometimes.

What kind of External HDD's do all of you recommend I check out? And from what vendor? Thanks!!
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I'm in the market for a bigger External HDD, does anyone have any recommendations?

Right now I have a 1 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro, which is great and I haven't had any problems except that sometimes it doesn't show up in the Finder, but I need a lot more space. I am thinking 3-4 TB now.

Just browsing OWC's website, I found their MiniStack MAX to be particularly interesting. A lot of space and a Blu-Ray reader, which is something I could see myself using on my computer sometimes.

What kind of External HDD's do all of you recommend I check out? And from what vendor? Thanks!!

Lacie, G-Tech and OWC make drives that have never given me issues; generally they're a little more expensive, with G-Tech being the most expensive. You can get a Lacie quadra 3TB for $229, which is a pretty good deal. Things like Western Digital drives are always going to be cheaper though.

Never seen one of those mini stacks in the wild so can't speak to them. Blu-Ray playback has generally been crap on PCs and especially Macs, so I don't think that's a feature you want to pay for.
 

Blackhead

Redarse
I'm in the market for a bigger External HDD, does anyone have any recommendations?

Right now I have a 1 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro, which is great and I haven't had any problems except that sometimes it doesn't show up in the Finder, but I need a lot more space. I am thinking 3-4 TB now.

Just browsing OWC's website, I found their MiniStack MAX to be particularly interesting. A lot of space and a Blu-Ray reader, which is something I could see myself using on my computer sometimes.

What kind of External HDD's do all of you recommend I check out? And from what vendor? Thanks!!

http://www.storagereview.com/ (Newer Technology miniStack MAX Review)

Thunderbolt drives are still expensive but, now that they are standard across all Macs, it's probably time to start considering purchasing one

Blu-Ray playback has generally been crap on PCs and especially Macs, so I don't think that's a feature you want to pay for.

Blu-ray playback is good on Windows and adequate on Macs (if you get the right software). It's also a good idea to rip and backup Blu-rays and 3-4TB provides lots of space for that.
 

Futureman

Member
Ordered new iMac 10/1.

Shipped yesterday 10/5.

Available for pick up at Apple Store 10/11.

Just placed an Amazon order for 8 GB RAM, 2 TB USB 3.0 drive for Time Machine and a Thunderbolt-to-Firewire adapter.

I READY.
 

Majine

Banned
Jesus fuck, I hate the Facetime camera on my MBA. Not only is it crappy quality, it seems like every imperfection on my face gets amplified 150%, makes me sad, then I look in my mirror and it's fine.
 

asdad123

Member
So Im thinking of downsizing from my desktop/monitor to an iMac 27 inch. I dont really have too much for my Define R4 any more so Im thinking an all-in-one solution should be better for me.


Is the 780m much better than the 680mx? I could maybe get a used late 2012 with a 1tb fusion drive, i7, 16gb ram, and the 680mx for about $1700 while one with a 1tb fusion drive, i5, and the 780m will cost me about another $600.

I wont be playing much games as Ill probably stick with PS4 for that, but It'd be nice if it could play new games pretty well. Obviously Im not looking for anything crazy (Im coming from crossfire 7950s), but atleast medium/60fps.
 

Water

Member
Is the 780m much better than the 680mx? I could maybe get a used late 2012 with a 1tb fusion drive, i7, 16gb ram, and the 680mx for about $1700 while one with a 1tb fusion drive, i5, and the 780m will cost me about another $600.
Not worth the money. The 780m is slower than a single 7950. In general, you really, really don't want to be buying iMacs if you care about GPUs, and especially not since those weak GPUs are married to a 1440p display.
I wont be playing much games as Ill probably stick with PS4 for that, but It'd be nice if it could play new games pretty well. Obviously Im not looking for anything crazy (Im coming from crossfire 7950s), but atleast medium/60fps.
Even at medium quality, I would not expect the 780m to do steady 60fps with all new games at 1440p. If you are willing to take a severe hit on framerates and quality anyway, you might as well go with the 680mx, that way you won't be overpaying by as much.
 

fireside

Member
So Im thinking of downsizing from my desktop/monitor to an iMac 27 inch. I dont really have too much for my Define R4 any more so Im thinking an all-in-one solution should be better for me.


Is the 780m much better than the 680mx? I could maybe get a used late 2012 with a 1tb fusion drive, i7, 16gb ram, and the 680mx for about $1700 while one with a 1tb fusion drive, i5, and the 780m will cost me about another $600.

I wont be playing much games as Ill probably stick with PS4 for that, but It'd be nice if it could play new games pretty well. Obviously Im not looking for anything crazy (Im coming from crossfire 7950s), but atleast medium/60fps.

The most demanding game I've played is Portal 2, and with V-Sync on it runs at a steady 60fps with everything on the highest settings with the 680MX. Obviously, 2 year old game.

You can sift through the Macrumors forums for impressions on newer games. I think the consensus was that it performed well enough.
 
Anyone have experience with 3rd-party Macbook batteries? I'd like to finally replace the aging one on my 2008 aluminum Macbook, but $129 for the OEM one is outrageous.
 

Pachimari

Member
Hmm, I'm weirded out now and very worried about my MacBook Air.

Whenever I put a charger in (unofficial) and charge it, the mouser curser starts acting all strange making the computer unusable. When I do something with the touchpad it does the wrong actions and everything.

Do you know why it has started acting like this?
 

kidko

Member
Hmm, I'm weirded out now and very worried about my MacBook Air.

Whenever I put a charger in (unofficial) and charge it, the mouser curser starts acting all strange making the computer unusable. When I do something with the touchpad it does the wrong actions and everything.

Do you know why it has started acting like this?

Have you tried an official Apple charger? Seems pretty obvious but thought I should ask...
 

Pachimari

Member
Have you tried an official Apple charger? Seems pretty obvious but thought I should ask...

Yeah, and it works fine.

How come the cursor starts acting strange with the unofficial charger?

Can it damage my MacBook Air? And should I ask for a refund?
 

kidko

Member
Yeah, and it works fine.

How come the cursor starts acting strange with the unofficial charger?

If your computer isn't getting clean power (fluctuations within an acceptable degree) then all kinds of unexpected behavior is possible. An electrical engineer could tell you the details.
 

Pachimari

Member
Oh, I guess I'll let the seller test out the charger at his place.

EDIT:
It's acting strange sometimes without the charger in now. Screen just went to sleep while I were typing a Pages document, weird.

I'm just afraid that an unofficial charger (made in China) can damage the battery or my computer in any way?
 

japtor

Member
I'm just afraid that an unofficial charger (made in China) can damage the battery or my computer in any way?
Yes. Or worst case short out and spark and cause a fire. Or I guess killing you would be worse but I haven't heard of any instances like that.

(Bad shit like that can happen with a malfunctioning/damaged official one too, but the chances of it happening increase with unofficial ones cause the looser quality control)
 

X-Frame

Member
What is the best/easiest way to transfer about 500 GB worth of data from one External HDD to another External HDD?


I have a mid-2010 MBP, so Firewire 800 and USB connections. Do I just connect one HDD to FW 800 and the other to the USB port and simply drag and drop?

If so, which HDD should get the FW 800 connection and which get the USB?

Thanks!
 

Fuchsdh

Member
What is the best/easiest way to transfer about 500 GB worth of data from one External HDD to another External HDD?


I have a mid-2010 MBP, so Firewire 800 and USB connections. Do I just connect one HDD to FW 800 and the other to the USB port and simply drag and drop?

If so, which HDD should get the FW 800 connection and which get the USB?

Thanks!

If they're both FW800 you should be able to daisy-chain them. As for order, it wouldn't really matter. FW to USB is much the same as USB to FW.
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
What is the best/easiest way to transfer about 500 GB worth of data from one External HDD to another External HDD?


I have a mid-2010 MBP, so Firewire 800 and USB connections. Do I just connect one HDD to FW 800 and the other to the USB port and simply drag and drop?

If so, which HDD should get the FW 800 connection and which get the USB?

Thanks!
It won't matter. Since the computer is acting as the transfer, it's also the bottleneck. Is the USB 2 or 3? I forget if 3 is faster than 800. But it won't matter. The files won't move faster than the slowest connection. If it's USB 2 then it'll take a few hours. Quite a few hours. So do it at night and leave it go.

The way you word it it's as if the drives are just bare drives. How are you plugging them in? Unless they're external drives that have both connections as an option. Though if that was the case, FireWire 800 would be the option to use because it can be daisy chained and will be faster. (I don't know how FireWire works, but if two drives are daisy chained, will the files be able to move directly from one drive to the other or will they still have to go through the logic board?)

Just plug them both in, drag from one to the other, then let it do its job. Remember the Finder will become realllly unresponsive during this. You could use RSync in the Terminal and it might be slightly faster and have better recovery, but you'd have to Google for that. But it'd work. In my case I'd use CarbonCopyCloner (Which uses RSync internally) but that costs money now so I don't praise it as much as I used to when it was free. But just use the Finder and let it go all night. Because it'll take a few hours. Unless they're both USB3 or FW800. Then it might take an hour or less. But if they're different connections, it'll be as slow as the slowest connection.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
It won't matter. Since the computer is acting as the transfer, it's also the bottleneck. Is the USB 2 or 3? I forget if 3 is faster than 800. But it won't matter. The files won't move faster than the slowest connection. If it's USB 2 then it'll take a few hours. Quite a few hours. So do it at night and leave it go.

The way you word it it's as if the drives are just bare drives. How are you plugging them in? Unless they're external drives that have both connections as an option. Though if that was the case, FireWire 800 would be the option to use because it can be daisy chained and will be faster. (I don't know how FireWire works, but if two drives are daisy chained, will the files be able to move directly from one drive to the other or will they still have to go through the logic board?)

Just plug them both in, drag from one to the other, then let it do its job. Remember the Finder will become realllly unresponsive during this. You could use RSync in the Terminal and it might be slightly faster and have better recovery, but you'd have to Google for that. But it'd work. In my case I'd use CarbonCopyCloner (Which uses RSync internally) but that costs money now so I don't praise it as much as I used to when it was free. But just use the Finder and let it go all night. Because it'll take a few hours. Unless they're both USB3 or FW800. Then it might take an hour or less. But if they're different connections, it'll be as slow as the slowest connection.

Thunderbolt > USB 3 > eSATA > FW800 > FW400 > USB 2 > USB 1, with some caveats.
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
I'll take either. Since I'm all Mac anyway. But not all my Macs have USB3, and even less have Thunderbolt, so USB3 wins since it works with USB2. As much as I'd love that Thunderbolt speed. The thing is the one computer I keep everything connected to is my 2010 Mac mini which only has USB2 and FW800. The latter of which I don't use.

I currently only have 2 USB3 drives, but eventually that'll change.
 

X-Frame

Member
If they're both FW800 you should be able to daisy-chain them. As for order, it wouldn't really matter. FW to USB is much the same as USB to FW.

It won't matter. Since the computer is acting as the transfer, it's also the bottleneck. Is the USB 2 or 3? I forget if 3 is faster than 800. But it won't matter. The files won't move faster than the slowest connection. If it's USB 2 then it'll take a few hours. Quite a few hours. So do it at night and leave it go.

The way you word it it's as if the drives are just bare drives. How are you plugging them in? Unless they're external drives that have both connections as an option. Though if that was the case, FireWire 800 would be the option to use because it can be daisy chained and will be faster. (I don't know how FireWire works, but if two drives are daisy chained, will the files be able to move directly from one drive to the other or will they still have to go through the logic board?)

Just plug them both in, drag from one to the other, then let it do its job. Remember the Finder will become realllly unresponsive during this. You could use RSync in the Terminal and it might be slightly faster and have better recovery, but you'd have to Google for that. But it'd work. In my case I'd use CarbonCopyCloner (Which uses RSync internally) but that costs money now so I don't praise it as much as I used to when it was free. But just use the Finder and let it go all night. Because it'll take a few hours. Unless they're both USB3 or FW800. Then it might take an hour or less. But if they're different connections, it'll be as slow as the slowest connection.

I had no idea what daisy-chaining was until I read this, thank you!

My computer has a Samsung 840 SSD. My current External HDD is a 1 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro with one (1) Firewire 800 port. I am getting a 4 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro with two (2) Firewire 800 ports.

So does that mean I can ..

Connect the new drive to my computer via FW 800, then connect my current (older) drive to the 2nd FW 800 port on my new drive, and then transfer that way? And the minimum speed will be FW 800 speeds?

That seems like a much faster solution than USB 2.0 being the bottleneck. Thank you!
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I had no idea what daisy-chaining was until I read this, thank you!

My computer has a Samsung 840 SSD. My current External HDD is a 1 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro with one (1) Firewire 800 port. I am getting a 4 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro with two (2) Firewire 800 ports.

So does that mean I can ..

Connect the new drive to my computer via FW 800, then connect my current (older) drive to the 2nd FW 800 port on my new drive, and then transfer that way? And the minimum speed will be FW 800 speeds?

That seems like a much faster solution than USB 2.0 being the bottleneck. Thank you!

It should work at FW899 speeds, yes. At te very least I've never noticed the host computer slowing down the transfer.

Daisy-chaining is the reason I've got FW and thunderbolt drives. Cleaner and less messes of wires.
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
I had no idea what daisy-chaining was until I read this, thank you!

My computer has a Samsung 840 SSD. My current External HDD is a 1 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro with one (1) Firewire 800 port. I am getting a 4 TB OWC Mercury Elite Pro with two (2) Firewire 800 ports.

So does that mean I can ..

Connect the new drive to my computer via FW 800, then connect my current (older) drive to the 2nd FW 800 port on my new drive, and then transfer that way? And the minimum speed will be FW 800 speeds?

That seems like a much faster solution than USB 2.0 being the bottleneck. Thank you!
Just remember that FireWire 800 is not future-proof. Apple has all but abandoned it and is moving onto ThunderBolt 2 and USB 3 now. You can get a TB to FW800 adapter, but I don't know if there's a speed limit. Keep this in mind when you upgrade computers next time.

Newer slicker MacBooks don't have FireWire and the normal MBP probably won't be around by then. Newer iMacs also don't have them. Oh, and the new Mac Pro cylinder also does not have it. FireWire will be dead within the next year. The current Apple TB Display does have a FW port though. But don't count on it staying since once the mini and MBP lose it, the display will be the only thing left with it on it.

TB is also daisychainable.

In fact, USB is the only one that isn't and never has been. It requires a hub structure whereas TB and FW can just connect to each other in a chain structure up to a set limit. I do believe TB hubs exist and can help extend it. Though most people won't have that many TB or even FW devices. TB is currently future-proof (Though nothing truly is) as it is both a data connection and a video connection and can be used for anything at all.

Can anyone chime in on how FireWire daisy chaining works and if the data from each drive needs to travel all the way to the computer then back out or if it is able to just travel directly from one drive to the other? I'd suspect it's the latter because the former would be braindead stupid design.
 

X-Frame

Member
Thank you for the heads up!

I am not sure how long my mid-2010 i7 MBP will stay usable, but with 8 GB of RAM and an SSD it is faster and more effective now than when I bought it. So unless whatever OS X update or technology in a few years causes it to be too slow or weak, I really don't see my updating to a new computer for quite some time.

The External HD from OWC I am getting does have USB 3.0 though, which is good. Then by the time I am updating, I can look into Thunderbolt drives which should be much cheaper.

Unless I am missing something completely ..
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
Thank you for the heads up!

I am not sure how long my mid-2010 i7 MBP will stay usable, but with 8 GB of RAM and an SSD it is faster and more effective now than when I bought it. So unless whatever OS X update or technology in a few years causes it to be too slow or weak, I really don't see my updating to a new computer for quite some time.

The External HD from OWC I am getting does have USB 3.0 though, which is good. Then by the time I am updating, I can look into Thunderbolt drives which should be much cheaper.

Unless I am missing something completely ..
No, you're good. ThunderBolt will come down in price over time and USB3 has the benefit of being compatible with USB2 in a pinch. FireWire is just pretty much dead. The fact that it's not on the Mac Pro, but only on the TB display shows how important it really is to Apple anymore. TB is their new versatile baby. FW is old and busted. Man how times have changed. Do consumer video cameras still use FireWire? Actually, do consumer video cameras even exist anymore?
 

Fuchsdh

Member
No, you're good. ThunderBolt will come down in price over time and USB3 has the benefit of being compatible with USB2 in a pinch. FireWire is just pretty much dead. The fact that it's not on the Mac Pro, but only on the TB display shows how important it really is to Apple anymore. TB is their new versatile baby. FW is old and busted. Man how times have changed. Do consumer video cameras still use FireWire? Actually, do consumer video cameras even exist anymore?

Yep, FW400 is still the DV/HDV standard, but a lot of that stuff has moved from tape and hard drives to memory sticks and AVCHD. That said you still get workstations with an IEEE.394. Those legacy ports on PC. I feel like they still have serial ports.

I imagine the consumer level camcorders are suffering the same way as point-and-shoots--better than cell phones, but not better enough (and usually weak on the software side) compared to the convenience of a single device in your pocket.

I expect the market for everything except prosumer/professional gear to crater entirely pretty soon.
 

kennah

Member
Yeah Firewire is sadly on the out. The 8,000$ Sony HD SSD based camera that we just got at my work uses USB 2.0 to transfer video...
 

X-Frame

Member
No, you're good. ThunderBolt will come down in price over time and USB3 has the benefit of being compatible with USB2 in a pinch. FireWire is just pretty much dead. The fact that it's not on the Mac Pro, but only on the TB display shows how important it really is to Apple anymore. TB is their new versatile baby. FW is old and busted. Man how times have changed. Do consumer video cameras still use FireWire? Actually, do consumer video cameras even exist anymore?

Thanks for all your help!

I have another question, do you (and anyone else with an External HD) leave it on all the time for daily updates and backups? Do you turn it off every night? Or only turn it on when you need it?
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I have a severe shortage of outlets in my room, so I only plug in my hard drives as needed--for backups, for my scratch disk, etc--one reason I've invested so much in bus-powered FW/TB hard drives.

Technically, it's bad to let your drives sit idle as the lubricants can dry and cause catostrophic failure when you try to spin it up again, but that's only an issue after months of inactivity. I'd say you're best unplugging everything to save power except for something like a backup, since it'll be working in the background automatically, and turn it off whenever your computer is.

I know Lacie drives have two power states--it'll only spin up when it's connected to a computer.
 

The Real Abed

Perma-Junior
I leave all my external HDD's connected to my Mac mini server as it serves up backups, media and Minecraft as well as other stuff 24/7. All 18TB of it.

I have a mixture of older Western Digital Elements (And an older MyBook) and newer USB3 Seagate Expansion drives. Half of them are backups of the other half in case you're wondering.

A small portion is dedicated to hoarding miscellaneous files gathered in the last 12 years and a
shitload of prawn
. Another small portion local backups of my and my dad's computers.


Edit: I just got an email from my local Apple retailer MacOutfitters saying they were CLOSING ALL THEIR LOCATIONS. Just out of the blue totally unexpected! They've been around for 22 years. They're a local Pennsylvania retailer. I've bought so many things from them. I was planning on getting my Retina MacBook Pro from them when they came out. Worse part being I have a $50 gift card that I was planning on putting towards it but now have to run over and spend it before they close. They didn't put a date in the email either.

The closest Apple Store is 15 miles away. Apparently it's a new one because it wasn't there before. Used to be the closest store was 25 miles away. Still, 15 miles is a hell of a long way to go when you're used to driving down the road. I wouldn't mind as much if there was an Apple Store in the mall closer to my house than the one I need to go to now.

Fuck. This sucks so much. For everyone. I hope Apple Stores do split payments between credit cards and debit cards, because I can't do that on the website and it sucks.

Sorry for ranting. This caught me by surprise. I'm sure there are some GAF peeps here from PA that might be familiar with them.
 
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