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[YesNOnoNOYes]

Then, possibly related, and counter to Karkador's general point, instead of wasting our time pandering, I think people just need to be a lot less whiney. Play the fucking game and realize that nobody here is actually trying to hurt your feelings.

To be fair, I wouldn't want to be a part of a community where meanness is a tolerated standard, though. Humour is a tricky thing. Not everyone gets the same vein of haha.

Roy mentioned that there is a fine line between playing ' tough ' and actual mean spirited behavior. Not saying that anyone has committed the latter on purpose but I actually empathize with how many times retro had to play the stern parent in season 6. That stuff hasn't been easy on him.

I'm with kark. I hope we're all adult enough to be able to be civil.

 

[Ty4on]

Just tell people editing is for typos only. Other edits will result in modkill and banning.

Unenforceable unless the mod reads every post in detail pre and post edit.

 

[Sophia]

Just tell people editing is for typos only. Other edits will result in modkill and banning.

I mean, it's unlikely to happen in our community because people are generally awesome, but you're still talking the potential for people justify editing out breadcrumbs under the name of fixing typos. With no way to verify it.

 

[Kalor]

I'm fine with the no edit rule as it stands. If someone has misspelled something it isn't going to detract from their post and they can just post again if they need to redo a vote. It might be a minor inconvenience but in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Better to put this here early I guess.

Number of player slots for the game: 18-20
People who have been told about, consulted, or hinted information about your set-up: Sorian so far
Theme: Quarantine (Scientists vs. Zombies)
Do you need an Outer Gafia game planning board? no
Game Category: ~7

 

[Palmer_v1]

To be fair, I wouldn't want to be a part of a community where meanness is a tolerated standard, though. Humour is a tricky thing. Not everyone gets the same vein of haha.

Roy mentioned that there is a fine line between playing ' tough ' and actual mean spirited behavior. Not saying that anyone has committed the latter on purpose but I actually empathize with how many times retro had to play the stern parent in season 6. That stuff hasn't been easy on him.

I'm with kark. I hope we're all adult enough to be able to be civil.

I mean the accidental stuff. Pronouns in particular are going to continue being an issue. Unless I've missed something, nobody has intentionally misused them to attack another player, yet we're still wasting(IMO) time on adjudicating it. I'm lazy, and this is just adding more overhead to the game.

I mean, it's unlikely to happen in our community because people are generally awesome, but you're still talking the potential for people justify editing out breadcrumbs under the name of fixing typos. With no way to verify it.

This just kills me though. I also have no real way to verify town isn't peeking when we play Werewolf IRL. I just trust that the people who want to be involved are not shitbags.

Also, in regards to overhead, allowing edits would cut down on the amount of filler posts, since you wouldn't have to create a whole new one to correct one minor mistake. It also helps against double posting, since you could simply append the new post to the previous one.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[Palmer_v1]

Y'all just can't help yourselves, eh?

This seems pretty clearly directed at me after the particular games we had. I think. Anyhoo, let's address the real problem.

Although Retromg and Scraftydevil continually phrased the Bloodborne issues as a matter of pronoun usage, that is not something I personally found relevant. Except where I was supporting Nudull, whom I (partially) recruited to this community, I am perfectly willing to disregard any errors in pronoun usage that are directed at me. Do you know why? It's because seeing it happen gives me a game advantage. Anyone constantly failing to follow the rules which relate to the treatment of other players have plainly got a nonempathetic personality. This is very important in leading opponents down one garden path or another. An empathetic personality responds to different stimulus and methods of manipulation, and methods are best tailored to the individual for game advantage.

No, the issues I had during this game were entirely a matter of being crippled in my strategy. It seemed that some players were being given leeway in obeying the rules as written. If that were so, then why would I obey the rules as written? My strategies in all my games have always fallen within the ruleset. If the ruleset is irrelevant, I'm stupidly restricting my potential toolbox for winning games.

In addition to dropping out of the game, I considered various strategies I could employ to gain game advantage. Some of those strategies involved basically declaring war on the moderation team. What you have SEEN me do, is concede victory to my opponents. What you do not wish to see me do, is to aim for *amuse Wee at all costs*.

Should rules regarding treatment of other players continue to be treated as "soft" rules with no real enforcement, you will exclude empathetic personalities from the community. You won't know it's happening. They will simply self direct themselves away from playing or even speaking with you. You will be artificially limiting your player base, as well as probably homogenizing the demographics. If you wish to play in a constantly shrinking sausage fest, then definitely remove those rules and enjoy the remaining time before the community becomes a black hole. If you wish a longer term investment, don't restrict your player base in such an unnecessary way.

Don't make sweeping generalizations based on just my attitude. I'm likely an outlier in my opinion that this dilutes the experience. Also try to be less self-centered. You're certainly a part of what I perceive to be a problem, but it stretches across multiple seasons, games, and players. I mean FFS, people have discussed whether Squidyj or Sorian or Darryl(off the top of my head, sorry guys) are problems because of their posting styles. While I have my own issues with Sorian, it's fucking ludicrous that we'd push them out because some other players are so thin-skinned. I'm just really tired of having to coddle people, particularly when they seem to have a persecution complex.

 

[RetroMG]

I'd like to suggest that everyone go back and re-read Kark's post before reading this one. Yes, even you. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Yeah, you didn't read it. Go on, go.

Okay. So here's the problem. What we're talking about here is entirely subjective. Wee's right in that I homed in on the gender aspect because that was a hard rule that I could try to make people adhere to. Behaving in a toxic matter is more nebulous. I'm willing to take some snark from Palmer, because he and I have been friends for a while, and I know he doesn't mean it. But to someone who has never played with Palmer before, his style of communication could come off as abrasive bordering on abusive.

Like Kark said, Mafia's a rough game. It's accusatory, it's defensive and sometimes it's brutal. The key is that we should all be able to be friends and the end of it. Is that easy? No. I hated Darryl for a long time after Animal Crossing was over. But I've since realized that he's not a bad guy, we were just on opposite sides of the game.
But sometimes the game goes too far. I'm looking at how Roy was treated in Gafia 2. I'm looking at how Weemad was treated in Bloodborne.

This is not acceptable.

I've said it so often that I worry that it's started to lose meaning, so I'd like you to home in on what I'm about to say - The point of playing games with friends is to build friendships. The games we play will never be as important as the people we play them with.

So, here's my opinion. This isn't Gafia law, this is just Retro talking.

1. Stop going for the throat on people's personal lives.
Would you lynch me if I told you I had green eyes? No. Why? Because it's not relevant to the game. The person who is behind the computer should not factor into your lynch. Is that hard? Hell yes. The Meta exists for a reason. But you still need to treat them like you would want them to treat you. If you can't treat other people with respect, you can't play Mafia with us anymore.

2. Please understand that we don't want to hurt you.
I'm going to turn this around and say that if you feel offended or attacked, please know that 90% of this community doesn't mean it. This recent issue has brought to light some things that need to be corrected, but by and large, this is a good community, one of the best I've ever been a part of. Tell us who you don't want to play with, but please give the rest of the group a chance.

3. Moderators, step up.
This issue got as bad as it did because the two people watching Bloodborne did not do all that they could. There were very good reasons for that, but the point still stands. We as moderators need to do better at stepping in. When we aren't available, there are multiple other people who can address it issues. I will be talking with the current and future moderators about how we can better address these issues so that this doesn't keep happening.

4. Please respect the moderators.
That being said, I am going to ask you to once again put your trust in us. We are sometimes going to have to make hard calls. Sometimes you won't like our decisions. I ask you to trust us, and trust that there are reasons for the decisions we make, even if we can't explain it in the moment.

I'll make you a deal, Gafia. If you will continue to trust your moderators, I will do everything in my power to ensure that trust is deserved.

 

[SkyOdin]

Don't make sweeping generalizations based on just my attitude. I'm likely an outlier in my opinion that this dilutes the experience. Also try to be less self-centered. You're certainly a part of what I perceive to be a problem, but it stretches across multiple seasons, games, and players. I mean FFS, people have discussed whether Squidyj or Sorian or Darryl(off the top of my head, sorry guys) are problems because of their posting styles. While I have my own issues with Sorian, it's fucking ludicrous that we'd push them out because some other players are so thin-skinned. I'm just really tired of having to coddle people, particularly when they seem to have a persecution complex.

I don't know, i think that posters in Mafia GAF have crossed the lines quite a few times. There have been a lot of cases where Player A makes a decision that others consider sub-optimal and other players in the game respond by calling Player A an idiot and becoming very aggressive towards them even after Player A has been eliminated from the game. Once someone is gone from the game, the excuse that the mean-spiritedness is part of the game goes away. At that point, it is just naked animosity. It is fine to talk about whether actions were mistakes and how they affect the game, but there are some cases where it snowballs way past that point and into direct hate.

Part of taking a game seriously is being respectful of people, even when they mess up or have a different playstyle than you prefer. Things I've seen like saying "I don't want to play with this person, so let's lynch them" or being angry at someone who has long since left the game are signs of disrespect that cross some lines. Keeping a cool head and putting your personal feelings of anger or animosity aside is important in a game like Mafia. Saying that Mafia is an aggressive game is no excuse for certain kinds of behavior.

 

[Ourobolus]

Part of taking a game seriously is being respectful of people, even when they mess up or have a different playstyle than you prefer. Things I've seen like saying "I don't want to play with this person, so let's lynch them" or being angry at someone who has long since left the game are signs of disrespect that cross some lines. Keeping a cool head and putting your personal feelings of anger or animosity aside is important in a game like Mafia. Saying that Mafia is an aggressive game is no excuse for certain kinds of behavior.

It does occur. Hell, even I'm guilty of it. Sure it's a game, but it is an investment of time and nobody really likes to lose. I was furious at nin, but that was just an initial reaction to Bar. I've cooled down, I'm no longer mad, and I'm sorry for being so antagonistic.

People are going to say stupid shit - we're people. Bouncing back from it to normalcy, whether through an apology, mutual understanding, or whatever, is how we move forward.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[Palmer_v1]

I don't know, i think that posters in Mafia GAF have crossed the lines quite a few times. There have been a lot of cases where Player A makes a decision that others consider sub-optimal and other players in the game respond by calling Player A an idiot and becoming very aggressive towards them even after Player A has been eliminated from the game. Once someone is gone from the game, the excuse that the mean-spiritedness is part of the game goes away. At that point, it is just naked animosity. It is fine to talk about whether actions were mistakes and how they affect the game, but there are some cases where it snowballs way past that point and into direct hate.

Part of taking a game seriously is being respectful of people, even when they mess up or have a different playstyle than you prefer. Things I've seen like saying "I don't want to play with this person, so let's lynch them" or being angry at someone who has long since left the game are signs of disrespect that cross some lines. Keeping a cool head and putting your personal feelings of anger or animosity aside is important in a game like Mafia. Saying that Mafia is an aggressive game is no excuse for certain kinds of behavior.

Now that you bring it up, I think this can be a problem in spectator threads as well. I know I'm guilty of it to some degree in Election Mafia, where I was flabbergasted by Salvapot and someone else, and basically shit-talked about them more harshly than was needed.

OTOH, can we not criticize players at all for particularly poor decisions? That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

You are not an outlier, at least not fully. Many others have expressed similar feelings of wanting to, in my words, nix some of the courtesy rules. This has been true across all the seasons, and has historically led to people quitting. Sometimes for long periods of time. I am certainly not the only person who has noticed, it has been discussed.



Dear boy, you seem unaware of your own arguments. The fact is, you have chosen a side based on your own self centeredness, in that you don't wish to have to make much effort to consider "feelings". This is a perfectly normal response, and I have no issues with you being self centered and hoping your convenience wins.

But you're also being a hypocrite right here. Does that bother you, or are you cool with it? No skin off my nose either way.

Your argument is short sighted, in that, to save your convenience, you are willing to push out the "thin skinned" players. You are not considering the longer term effects of taking that side. I am telling you, based on my knowledge of how specific users feel on this issue, and the demographics involved, that you will have the longer term effect of homogenization and decay. If you are okay with those effects coming to pass, very well. I have no additional argument to make.

In my self centered ness, I withdrew from play, alone, without asking for support or some sort of group boycott. In yours, you want to push out me, and anyone who may agree with me. The numbers in your method are poor if even one person quietly goes away due to the issue, as you have doubled the losses to the community. I am recommending you not to do that. I have already left, and am only discussing the season end by request.

Self-centered in that I wasn't trying to shit-up an active game for an advantage, as you did in scum chat. I played the game, and waited until afterwards to voice concerns. I'm all for keeping things moving smoothly, thus my desire for as little overhead as possible.

 

[RetroMG]

STOP

This conversation is going no where, and it's getting toxic. Palmer, Weemad, both of you need to step away from this for a little while.

This issue isn't black and white, and both of you are being aggressive right now in a manner that isn't conducive to having a meaningful conversation about it.

This is meant to be a discussion, not a brawl, and both of you are doing exactly what the conversation is about avoiding.

Take a break, come back later.

 

[Camjo-Z]

Let us all become one with the iris.

Regarding edits, I think it's OK if someone edits within a few minutes or so of their post. We all try to get those stealth edits in when we fall prey to redundant word choice or garish spelling errors anyway.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[RetroMG]

Zero tolerance is tricky. I'm in favor of zero tolerance for things that are very black and white. (If a rule is clearly and intentionally broken, then it's done.)
When it's not black and white, it's trickier, which is why I am in favor of giving one warning. We've already seen very clearly that what is considered acceptable varies wildly from person to person.

 

[Sophia]

It does occur. Hell, even I'm guilty of it. Sure it's a game, but it is an investment of time and nobody really likes to lose. I was furious at nin, but that was just an initial reaction to Bar. I've cooled down, I'm no longer mad, and I'm sorry for being so antagonistic.

People are going to say stupid shit - we're people. Bouncing back from it to normalcy, whether through an apology, mutual understanding, or whatever, is how we move forward.

I'm guilty of it too. There's been more than one case where I've said something in the spectator thread, or in private, and had to tone it down because it was out of line and I knew it. It's just something we all have to realize, rectify with whatever means, and try to avoid in the future.

Related to that, I do appreciate it when someone goes by and tells me in private that "Hey, that was out of line there!" and stuff. I don't always recognize it, but when it comes from someone I'm close to or respect (like say Retro, who has preemptively done it a few times), then it really helps me step back and avoid turning a potentially nasty situation even worse.

 

[Xamtheking]

Maybe we can tone down some of the more aggressive behavior by increasing the number of non-mafia related events within the community, where you might be able to bond better which would later lead to a better game experience.

 

[roytheone]

Maybe we can tone down some of the more aggressive behavior by increasing the number of non-mafia related events within the community, where you might be able to bond better which would later lead to a better game experience.

Like playing overwatch? I can already see it:

FUCKING HELL XAM, WHY DIDN'T YOU HEAL ME, I WAS RIGHT THERE AND HAD CRITICAL HEALTH! YOU ARE WORTHLESS!

 

[cabot]

I say stuff like that all the time.

 

[RetroMG]

Maybe we can tone down some of the more aggressive behavior by increasing the number of non-mafia related events within the community, where you might be able to bond better which would later lead to a better game experience.

I'm off of school for the next six weeks. Hoping to get some Quiplash/Drawful in.
This might not be widely known outside of Discord, but I also host a Minecraft server that Gafia members are welcome to come play in, and I'm also in the process of setting up a Starbound server for that sweet sweet 1.0 update.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

This is why you play Mafia, Cards against Humanity, Risk, and most competitive games with friends. With strangers it's very easy to step on someone's toes or cross a line. Some are more competitive than others, and for some it's not just a game.

Forum mafia is a spin-off of real-life Mafia, which is usually played with people you know. I think GAFIA has done its best and is better than most communities, but we're still on an Internet messaging board behind pseudonyms and avatars.

I think we have a core group of people who know each other and how they think, what ticks them off, etc. So for them, it's fun to rib each other and share in-jokes. And expanding the community isn't a bad thing at all. But when you have a party and strangers get invited to it, or you're the new guy trying to be part of an established group, tensions can happen (and usually do).

So it's a delicate balance: keep things going since it's working, but adapt to changing circumstances, be welcoming but also enforce the rules when they're broken. Can we do all that without changing the Mafia experience: have fun, make friends, kill the doctor? That's the challenge.

 

[RetroMG]

So it's a delicate balance: keep things going since it's working, but adapt to changing circumstances, be welcoming but also enforce the rules when they're broken. Can we do all that without changing the Mafia experience: have fun, make friends, kill the doctor? That's the challenge.

NeoGAF Mafia |OT7| Have fun, make friends, kill the doctor

No, but seriously, L_P is right, as well as also having an awesome title for the Season 7 thread.

 

[Sorian]

You don't think we can trust people not to cheat with the editing? If we changed the rule to allow for editing of typos only. Can't change the content of your post.

I know I'm not the only one who does this anyway, within the 60 second grace period before edit timestamps start to appear.

As for actual problems, I think curbing inactivity and game dropping is #1 by a large margin. Then, possibly related, and counter to Karkador's general point, instead of wasting our time pandering, I think people just need to be a lot less whiney. Play the fucking game and realize that nobody here is actually trying to hurt your feelings.

A big hearty nope, sorry all.

 

[Sophia]

Forum mafia is a spin-off of real-life Mafia, which is usually played with people you know. I think GAFIA has done its best and is better than most communities, but we're still on an Internet messaging board behind pseudonyms and avatars.

Hey, I'll have you know I'm hiding behind no pseudonym, thank you very much!

BEEP BEEP

NeoGAF Mafia |OT7| Have fun, make friends, kill the doctor

No, but seriously, L_P is right, as well as also having an awesome title for the Season 7 thread.

The first rule of Mafia is that you do not talk about Mafia

The second rule of Mafia is that you do not talk about Mafia

The third rule of Mafia is that you shoot the doctor first. Always.

 

[Sorian]

I don't know, i think that posters in Mafia GAF have crossed the lines quite a few times. There have been a lot of cases where Player A makes a decision that others consider sub-optimal and other players in the game respond by calling Player A an idiot and becoming very aggressive towards them even after Player A has been eliminated from the game. Once someone is gone from the game, the excuse that the mean-spiritedness is part of the game goes away. At that point, it is just naked animosity. It is fine to talk about whether actions were mistakes and how they affect the game, but there are some cases where it snowballs way past that point and into direct hate.

Part of taking a game seriously is being respectful of people, even when they mess up or have a different playstyle than you prefer. Things I've seen like saying "I don't want to play with this person, so let's lynch them" or being angry at someone who has long since left the game are signs of disrespect that cross some lines. Keeping a cool head and putting your personal feelings of anger or animosity aside is important in a game like Mafia. Saying that Mafia is an aggressive game is no excuse for certain kinds of behavior.

Whether I agree with or have an engaged in either of these two behaviors is irrelevant to this conversation but to play devil's advocate, let's take both of these points and show why they are game advantageous.

"I don't want to play with this person, so let's lynch them" - It's day 1, no special info from N0, finding scum is effectively a shot in the dark barring a breakdown. There are people in this community who play extremely sub-optimally a majority of the time. I would much rather lynch them than going for someone who, if town, would be a huge help down the line. I'd rather let scum kill the good players if I'm not sure who scum is. I do call policy lynches lazy but at the end of the day, it's a calculated risk, rarely is it actually malicious aside from the indicator that the person you are going for is known for being a bad player.

"Being angry at someone who has long since left the game" - This one is emotional play and the game is a majority of messing with emotions to bend people a bit. I can point to Batman fairly easily and it's myself so meh. Notice that when gryvan came into the game, I largely ignored him and went after Kark some more when he wasn't able to do anything about it. Dickish, I know, but tactically, it was the only thing I could realistically do if I wanted to keep control of the vote which I had up to that point. Looking at it in retrospect, of course I was mafia and of course I was being a complete prick, I may as well have been twirling my moustache but people were falling for it. That's the point, in the moment, messing with those emotions is the best way to get what you need.

The point is, people need to separate the game player from the non-game player. I've said this to the moderation team plenty, the Sorian that plays mafia with you all is basically an actor. I act a part in there and then I'm myself out here. Retro is right in the green eyes analogy, that's dumb, but riding someone into the ground over gameplay or a game related decision? That's always going to be fair game and I wouldn't call it disrespectful at all.

 

[Sawneeks]

The point is, people need to separate the game player from the non-game player. I've said this to the moderation team plenty, the Sorian that plays mafia with you all is basically an actor. I act a part in there and then I'm myself out here. Retro is right in the green eyes analogy, that's dumb, but riding someone into the ground over gameplay or a game related decision? That's always going to be fair game and I wouldn't call it disrespectful at all.

I agree, but when it comes to new players it can be really hard to tell the difference between what's a game and what isn't. For people who have been here a while it's a little easier to tell the difference between 'that person is being an ass' and 'that person is just joking'. Over time you just get a sense of how that person is but for a brand new player everything is new to them. It's been said over and over that Mafia is an emotional game and people can get really invested in it and not being able to tell the difference between what's in-game and what's out has lead to a lot of conflict and hurt people.

A solution for this isn't easy, it's really tough to gauge someone's intent behind text if you just started talking to them. Sarcasm and the like don't come across instantly on a message board as opposed to actually speaking with someone. I can be terribly sarcastic with my jokes and friendly jabs towards people and it doesn't always come across that way and I 100% understand that. It's why I try not to be that way with new faces because I don't intend for it to be hurtful or mean, it can just end up coming across that way if you don't know me. It's something I think some people need to be aware of: you don't intend to be an ass but to someone who doesn't know you it can come across that way.

I do agree with Xam's suggestion of having more side games or some of community activity to get people to know each other better. Getting to know someone's 'out of game' persona generally helps mitigate aggression in-game.

 

[RetroMG]

The point is, people need to separate the game player from the non-game player. I've said this to the moderation team plenty, the Sorian that plays mafia with you all is basically an actor. I act a part in there and then I'm myself out here. Retro is right in the green eyes analogy, that's dumb, but riding someone into the ground over gameplay or a game related decision? That's always going to be fair game and I wouldn't call it disrespectful at all.

I'm just seconding this - A lot of people seem to think I hate Sorian. That's not actually true at all. Outside of Mafia, I like Sorian quite a lot. But in-game, I think he's an enormous jerk.
I mentioned earlier that I disliked Darryl for a long time after Animal Crossing because I hadn't learned to separate those personae yet. I've since learned that Darryl is genuinely a decent guy.

There's gameplay and there's real life. We need to do a better job of fencing these things off. Just because I play Super Mario Brothers doesn't mean I go around stomping on every mushroom I see. It would be horrible manners at a Pizza party.

I do not think that we can reach a meaningful agreement between what I will call Palmer and Weemad's sides of the argument. Can we at least, for the moment, agree that there needs to be a clearly enforced rule about dragging real life into the game?

 

[Timeaisis]

GAFia was a mistake.

 

[RetroMG]

GAFia was a mistake.

Nah.

(I know, you're joking. Hear me out.)

But seriously, this is a good group. We are not normally this toxic. We're gonna get through this. I know Gafia. We aren't a bunch of lunatics out to get each other. We aren't here to hurt one another. I've talked to people about their families, their hopes, their dreams, their pain, and their sorrow.
Some of us are saints. Some of us are assholes. Some of us are black, some of us are white, some of us are LGBT, some of us really like tacos. But we're here together, because we're crazy enough to spend eight weeks trying to figure some of the internet's weirdest murder mysteries.

We make mistakes along the way, and we learn from them. We hurt feelings, and hopefully, we apologize. And then we move on, hopefully better than we were before.

Tomorrow is another day. Instead of arguing about what the problem is, how can we make it better?
If you feel like people are being too sensitive, what can be done to help them not feel so attacked?
If you feel like people are being overly attacked, how can we make that stop?
Where is the middle ground?

Over to you.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

Mafia games here have been mostly hands-off in terms of moderation, no? I think for next season we should have more oversight. I know that every single community vacillates between freedom of speech and Big Brother oversight and there is never a consensus, and we don't want to get actual GAF moderators involved, so let's try to self-police a little more.

Yes, modkills, warnings, and replacements can and will affect the game, but what's more important at the end of the day? A forum game, or the very real emotions and well-being of the players involved? I know it's a gigantic bummer to everyone involved if a game unexpectedly goes off the rails, but stuff happens. I would rather everyone laugh about how a game ended in a neutral victory than have a proper ending soured by genuine frustration or antagonism.

Hey, I'll have you know I'm hiding behind no pseudonym, thank you very much!

BEEP BEEP

It actually says Lone_Prodigy on my passport.

 

[Sorian]

GAFia was a mistake.

Nothing but trash.

-----

I'm still more for hands off moderation. More of the key is that we need to crack down more seriously on things and not fall into a perpetual warning pattern. That's on each individual mod though.

 

[Ourobolus]

Mafia games here have been mostly hands-off in terms of moderation, no? I think for next season we should have more oversight. I know that every single community vacillates between freedom of speech and Big Brother oversight and there is never a consensus, and we don't want to get actual GAF moderators involved, so let's try to self-police a little more.

Yes, modkills, warnings, and replacements can and will affect the game, but what's more important at the end of the day? A forum game, or the very real emotions and well-being of the players involved? I know it's a gigantic bummer to everyone involved if a game unexpectedly goes off the rails, but stuff happens. I would rather everyone laugh about how a game ended in a neutral victory than have a proper ending soured by genuine frustration or antagonism.

It actually depends, I think.

Moderating takes a lot of work. I know sometimes it seems like we just show up for day end/day start, but there's a lot of coordination and the like that happens in the interim (not to mention all the pregame stuff).

And just like players, we get caught up in RL stuff. The intent to run everything smoothly is there, but shit happens. A structure is necessary, as well as firm guidelines on how to handle EXPECTED situations. There aren't hard and fast rules for every incident, so please don't jump down our throats when something new happens and we don't react in the most optimal way. We're learning too - I'm only a few courses away from my MFA in Mafia, so after that's done you can feel free to harangue me, though.

That's the point of these review threads - not only to understand how players could have done things differently, but also for the mods.

The point is, people need to separate the game player from the non-game player. I've said this to the moderation team plenty, the Sorian that plays mafia with you all is basically an actor. I act a part in there and then I'm myself out here. Retro is right in the green eyes analogy, that's dumb, but riding someone into the ground over gameplay or a game related decision? That's always going to be fair game and I wouldn't call it disrespectful at all.

Wait, I'm supposed to have two different personae? Dammit. I can't help just being a cuddly stuffed animal all the time.

 

[Sorian]

Ouro actually only has one class left.

Serial Killer Balance 431

Taught by me of course.

 

[Ourobolus]

Ouro actually only has one class left.

Serial Killer Balance 431

Taught by me of course.

I already took that one.

Paging Coppanuva

 

[Coppanuva]

I already took that one.

Paging Coppanuva

Can confirm. He balanced me correclty, it was the damned medium that was op.

 

[Timeaisis]

Nah.

(I know, you're joking. Hear me out.)

But seriously, this is a good group. We are not normally this toxic. We're gonna get through this. I know Gafia. We aren't a bunch of lunatics out to get each other. We aren't here to hurt one another. I've talked to people about their families, their hopes, their dreams, their pain, and their sorrow.
Some of us are saints. Some of us are assholes. Some of us are black, some of us are white, some of us are LGBT, some of us really like tacos. But we're here together, because we're crazy enough to spend eight weeks trying to figure some of the internet's weirdest murder mysteries.

We make mistakes along the way, and we learn from them. We hurt feelings, and hopefully, we apologize. And then we move on, hopefully better than we were before.

Tomorrow is another day. Instead of arguing about what the problem is, how can we make it better?
If you feel like people are being too sensitive, what can be done to help them not feel so attacked?
If you feel like people are being overly attacked, how can we make that stop?
Where is the middle ground?

Over to you.

Sorry for the drive-by. Yeah I agree, though. I love this community. I guess my opinion is that at the end of the day, it's just a game. And when we're "in" the game, we're playing. Same goes for moderators and such. You can't mod perfectly each time. Shit happens. If something doesn't work, we move on and learn from it.

As for people being overly aggressive or too sensitive, I don't know the answer to that.

I do think we need to utilize modkills more, if that makes sense. Have obvious rules you can't cross, and modkill if someone breaks them.

 

[Kalor]

Can confirm. He balanced me correclty, it was the damned medium that was op.

I was just a simple messenger. I wasn't expecting Roy to find a neutral so early.

 

[Karkador]

The point is, people need to separate the game player from the non-game player. I've said this to the moderation team plenty, the Sorian that plays mafia with you all is basically an actor. I act a part in there and then I'm myself out here. Retro is right in the green eyes analogy, that's dumb, but riding someone into the ground over gameplay or a game related decision? That's always going to be fair game and I wouldn't call it disrespectful at all.

This is what I meant by real-life details being off-limits in a game. We do need to make a clear division between player and person. If I say I'm Erik living in NYC and I have a normal day job schedule, that is a truth that shouldn't be up for discussion, underhanded quipping, heckling, or comparison to whatever my role and game persona is. I'm not saying these things are happening, but I believe that's the standard.

We all understand that mafia is a game where you have to play a role, and to to end, I would defend some (but not all) roleplaying as part of the game.
I still am not really convinced that meanness is a necessary tactic (even as someone who has been kind of mean in prior games). But I think it would be best for the community to define exactly what is valid game aggression and what's unacceptable in our community.



On the topic of "thin skin". Clearly defined guidelines will help everyone, "thick" and "thin", know what's expected from players and moderation. That's what I see as the most fair to everyone, and it's not a waste of time.


On the topic of "pandering". We actually have had issues in the past with people bringing in real-life details to try to condemn players in a game. We collectively decided that was unacceptable, in part because it's irrelevant to the game. Gender pronouns should fall under the same standard- it shouldn't have to be mentioned at all, but they ARE an issue because we naturally have to use pronouns to refer to other players all the time. So in lieu of banning pronouns, we have to be watchful about people abusing it, even inadvertantly.

If you're not affected by these things, that's good to hear, but there are people who are. I agree with weemadarthur, in that we're deciding here whether GAFIA will be welcoming to as many as possible, or instead interested in weeding people out.

 

[roytheone]

I was just a simple messenger. I wasn't expecting Roy to find a neutral so early.

100 % hit rate. Best cop ever.

 

[Coppanuva]

I was just a simple messenger. I wasn't expecting Roy to find a neutral so early.

Hey man I'm not blaming YOU, just your role. I'd have done the same in your shoes.

 

[Xamtheking]

Idea: Have a longer break bewteen the end up signups and game start to allow for bonding between players in a given game, especially for new people so they don't have to exclusively rely on past mafia threads to tell how a person behaves

 

[Kawl_USC]

Idea: Have a longer break bewteen the end up signups and game start to allow for bonding between players in a given game, especially for new people so they don't have to exclusively rely on past mafia threads to tell how a person behaves

That's generally the period people are the most antsy to start games it seems. Think this would just people be frustrated more than anything else.

 

[Xamtheking]

That's generally the period people are the most antsy to start games it seems. Think this would just people be frustrated more than anything else.

If we tell people ahead of time, I'd be surprised if they don't adapt to it. Maybe then not after signups but during signups.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

Hey man I'm not blaming YOU, just your role. I'd have done the same in your shoes.

But that copycat claim though.

 

[Coppanuva]

But that copycat claim though.

True... Which reminds me: that's a good example of "don't roll over and die, have fun" when you're on the chopping block like someone mentioned on page 1

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Whoa, lots of stuff happened after I went to bed last night.

It's an uncomfortable issue to discuss but I think it's an issue that this community have to sort out, sooner or later.

If you're not affected by these things, that's good to hear, but there are people who are. I agree with weemadarthur, in that we're deciding here whether GAFIA will be welcoming to as many as possible, or instead interested in weeding people out.

Can't really make coherent thoughts yet. Just woke up, but.... this is pretty on point, Kark.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

OK SO JUST TO RECAP

On self-voting:
Will be left up to gamerunners' discretion for now. Seems to be unfair to enforce community wide rule when we may be over-reacting to how Bar Mafia ended. If there is further issues in the future, we can revisit this.

On in-game hostility and behaviours:
New guideline will be drafted for the new recruitment thread. Karkador seems to have the right language and messages, so we will be using his words moving forward.

On Recruitment:
We'll use the thread more often and remember to bump it up regularly. Chatting and generally socializing there is also encouraged since Discord is not immediately visible to everyone (and to potential new comers). Main games may also be staggered to cover for timing and availability. Mainstream themes that has the potential to attract newcomers may also be reserved for the big recruitment drives. Additionally, the looks and feels of the Opening Posts may be revamped.

On Activity Levels:
Should the roster be tweaked to allocate high posters into each game like in Season 4? What needs to be done? What can be done? We can try to enforce posting requirements but like was said before, the moderators' tools are very limited.

On Length of Phases:
The amount of players wanting shorter Day 1 phase seems to be substantial. The survey showed that at least 30 people wants this to happen. So, we will try to implement this in Season 7. Hopefully, it will reduce the slog in the beginning of the games and pull the games into better pacing. How short will Day 1 be, though, will be left up to the gamerunners' discretion.

On Editing Posts:
We will keep the No Edits rule.


I think that's all the grounds we have covered so far. Anything I had missed, let me know. I want to keep minutes so we can track what we have talked about and get to some sort of consensus on each of the issues.

I will also close the survey in a few days' time and I'll report on the aggregate results here.