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[SkyOdin]

Whether I agree with or have an engaged in either of these two behaviors is irrelevant to this conversation but to play devil's advocate, let's take both of these points and show why they are game advantageous.

...

"Being angry at someone who has long since left the game" - This one is emotional play and the game is a majority of messing with emotions to bend people a bit. I can point to Batman fairly easily and it's myself so meh. Notice that when gryvan came into the game, I largely ignored him and went after Kark some more when he wasn't able to do anything about it. Dickish, I know, but tactically, it was the only thing I could realistically do if I wanted to keep control of the vote which I had up to that point. Looking at it in retrospect, of course I was mafia and of course I was being a complete prick, I may as well have been twirling my moustache but people were falling for it. That's the point, in the moment, messing with those emotions is the best way to get what you need.

I wasn't just talking about in-game threads, but the spectator chat and after the game is over as well. When a game is over, there is no excuse for going on about how much of an idiot a player may or may not be. Strategy is no longer a concern, and both victory and defeat already lie in the past.

Besides, I do have some honest concerns that people have been putting the short term goal of winning games ahead of the long-term health of the community. I can't help but feel that there have been a fair number of players who got turned off from MafiaGAF community based on how the community has behaved. We have had a large number of people dropping from games in the last couple of seasons, and it feels like there are quite a few people who have stopped playing Mafia games entirely. Now, it is impossible to know exactly why this has been happening, since it is the result of a various people's personal decisions, but there does seem to be a certain trend of people being turned off by some player's behavior and the general tone of games.

I realize that to a certain degree this is unavoidable in a game like Mafia, where the basic premise of the game is that people are being asked to lie to and manipulate each other. However, I think that there is a difference between lying to someone as part of the game and being an asshole. It should be possible to be a good mafia player and not ruin other people's fun.

I don't like the solution of people being asked to grow thicker skin either, since that just drops more blame and responsibility for the situation on the backs of the people who are unhappy about it. People are different, and have different expectations from a game of Mafia. Now, if they are all asked to grow thicker skin, what you are really saying is that you don't want people who are more sensitive to remain part of the community. In other words, you are asking the community to become a more exclusive community that excludes people who are not comfortable with a highly aggressive and potentially hurtful style. On the other hand, we could aim to be an inclusive community that is willing to make allowances for people who are not comfortable with that playstyle.

I know that it is probably not possible to create a set of rules and expectations that suits the preferences of everyone. In the end, it is a matter of deciding what sort of community we want to be.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

You, I like you, skyodin.

 

[Royal_Flush]

Re: No editing:

For the love of god, don't ditch that rule. I'm sorry, maybe I just have less faith in humanity in general but I highly doubt that in a game with 20-30 people nobody would abuse it to quickly cover up a small but damning fuckup (Like including info only Scum could know). Hell, I know I would be tempted as fuck to do it and am not sure if I could resist it. The other thing is that if you read DP D1 (well and even up to D3), Blarg made a huge deal out of a legit typo/small confusion I made in one of my posts (I exchanged Town with Scum when from context it was quite clear what I meant). Without the no-edit rule I would have just fixed it because it was, well, a typo. And the Blarg posts would have never happened.

Also, in regards to overhead, allowing edits would cut down on the amount of filler posts, since you wouldn't have to create a whole new one to correct one minor mistake. It also helps against double posting, since you could simply append the new post to the previous one.

Both these things are non-issues. Filler posts aren't inherently bad. They clog the search-post-by-user feature which imo is a legitimate tactic if that's what you want to be doing. And double posts are better than appending your new content to an older post since than at least everyone is notified there is a new post. Just because people don't react to a post doesn't mean they're not aware of its existence. If you start just editing the post the thread won't show as "has new content" in the subbox and people might easily miss the added stuff.


Re: Backseat modding:

As a former gamerunner I have to fully agree. If your gamerunner deems something worthy of a modkill or warning they will modkill or warn that person. They do not need and do not want your opinion on this. Running a game is not a democratic process. However if you feel that a player behaved incorrectly you (imo) may point it out in the thread.


Re: Thick skin / thin skin:

I do not want to comment on how S6 gamerunners handled certain situations but I do think most of the time you get a pretty good feeling if something is in-game or real. That being said you can never predict how the "insulted" party will react. I have at least one incident in mind I didn't see coming... So I don't know. I don't really have advice here except that you have to find a middle ground and read between the lines as a gamerunner. That of course is bound to personal judgement and therefore is a weak rule that will fail from time to time but I thing it will fail less often than hard rules. The "be nice" part of our current rules is very flexible and should be used very flexibly.


Re: Activity, motivation, dropouts

I don't know what's the reason here so I can't suggest anything to fix it. However, I will repeat here what I've already written in the survey: Try to find a good balance of high, mid and low activity players in each game so you have at least two forces driving the game forward.

 

[cabot]

I consider the spectator thread to be a part of the game as the main thread, so my comments stay the same with regards to the game. Everything outside of those things is different, and behaviour should match accordingly.

 

[CzarTim]

Besides, I do have some honest concerns that people have been putting the short term goal of winning games ahead of the long-term health of the community.

Yes, I agree with this. Obviously we should all play to win, but having fun is more important than padding your W/L record. We'll hopefully be playing mafia for a long, long time, so there's no reason to win at all cost.

Babysitting adults is unfortunately the job of every* manager and job trainer.

You're right, but keep in mind moderating isn't a job. Mods want to have fun too. People are volunteering their free time to run games. And those people may not have a great amount of experience actually managing people, or always know the best way to defuse a situation. Because they only have warnings / replacements / modkills at their disposal, interfering is often the only option. And interfering could hurt the game the mod spent so much time and energy setting up. For fun.

That isn't meant to be an excuse, just pointing out the reality. Not every mod is going to be comfortable enough with confrontation to modkill / start Mario Party games when a player crosses the line. Having the decisions come from the modteam as a whole (with input from the game runner, of course) might make make things more consistent.


At the same time, I think many people sign up to be a mod because designing games is fun or they enjoy writing flavor, but it should be clear that running a game also means having to deal with difficult situations. It's not always fun or easy.

 

[El Topo]

It's just a game, folks.

 

[cabot]

It's just a game, folks.

You're a game, and I don't want to play you.

 

[RetroMG]

At the same time, I think many people sign up to be a mod because designing games is fun or they enjoy writing flavor, but it should be clear that running a game also means having to deal with difficult situations. It's not always fun or easy.

This actually leads to something I've been wanting to say for a long time, because I feel like it was a common misconception in our community way before now.

Folks, running a game is hard.

I'm not saying this to complain, or look for pity, or anything like that. Personally, I love doing it, and I'm sad that my personal circumstances probably won't allow for it in the future. I'm saying this because I think a lot of people don't realize it. It looks like we show up at the beginning and end of the day, copy/pasta something we wrote ages ago, and then go back to whatever we were doing. That's not at all the case.

First of all, there's designing a game. Anyone who has done it will tell you it's tricky to make a good design. I personally don't have the talent for it. I have neat ideas, but no sense of balance. Every game I've worked on has spent hours with experts looking at it, making adjustments, tweaking, until finally we all thought it was done. If you think you can just write up a design doc, show it to the mods, and they'll say you're ready to go, you are likely very much mistaken. A few games have managed it. Bar and Love Boat were ready to go pretty much immediately. Danny Phantom, Gafia 2, and Bloodborne, on the other hand, all took hours of prep to get them to the state that they finally ran in.
So then there's the work of modding. You RNG your roles. You let Retro or Ynnny know what OG boards you need, and you write your OP. You create your thread. (Hopefully you're smart enough to get someone to help you so someone doesn't screw it up while it's going up.) You start the game, and you follow the thread as best you can. As the days start and end, you're there, at the same time, every time, putting up your flavor and administrating the game. Oh, unless they turbo, of course.
So let's talk about when things go wrong. Because believe me, they will. Nearly every game I've been involved with behind the scenes has had some sort of major snafu.

Examples:
-During Ouro's Metal Gear Solid game, players managed to guess one of the central mechanics, (it was the first mid-season game to feature a medium) based off of the names of one of the threads.
-During the Final Fantasy game, someone who was covering a day end for Scrafty (me) got a vote count wrong and day end results had to be corrected about two hours into the night phase.
-During Night Vale, a player accidentally got the wrong Role PM. Not wanting to tank the whole game at startup, I mitigated the best I could. Then I got a message in the middle of the night (just as I was falling asleep) that one of my players was blabbing about having seen Sorian's Role PM.
-Oh hey, speaking of Turbo, Bloodborne turboed three times, all of which were when Scrafty was either dead asleep or at work.
-Werewolf 1. That's all I'll say. That and the fact that Werewolf 2 is the fastest I've ever seen a game designed.
-These are purely mechanical things that have gone wrong. You also get to mediate when things get hairy between the players. Go back and read the last day of Night Vale sometime, and understand that I was also getting constant messages on the side from both Scrafty and Sorian. I felt like I was refereeing a boxing match.
-Oh, and watch your PMs on GAF and Discord, because the players are GOING to have questions. Lots of questions. Things you never, ever thought about.

Do you get my point? I think you get my point. The point is that whether it's our mistake or the players' mistakes or no one's mistakes, modding is tough work in the middle of a busy life. We don't have all the answers, and a lot of times we screw up, but we manage the best we can.

Oh, and at the end of the game you worked so hard on, someone salty will still probably come up to you and say, "Your game was garbage," or "Town/Scum was too OP."

So why do it? Because it's fun! Duh!

Maybe you do it because modding is six weeks of "I know something you don't know!" Maybe you do it because you have a great design idea and you can't wait for people to see the crazy twist you've pulled. Some people have done it to take a break from playing, the poor fools. Some people have done it for the mad power rush. Some people do it because they want to come hang out in mod chat with us. (Which really is super fun.)
Maybe you do it because you love the community, and you want to give something back.

If you want to mod a game, I encourage you to do it, because it really is a blast. But I'm writing this because I want you to do it with your eyes open.

 

[Burbeting]

I waited for Love Boat to turbo at 3AM Finland time. That was fun .

 

[cabot]

I told a date to screw off for the bar mafia day end.

YOU ALL SHOULD APPRECIATE THIS.

 

[Kyanrute]

Oh, and at the end of the game you worked so hard on, someone salty will still probably come up to you and say, "Your game was garbage," or "Town/Scum was too OP."

im never salty maybe it is because all the games ive played have been games of excellent quality and utmost balance

 

[cabot]

im never salty maybe it is because all the games ive played have been games of excellent quality and utmost balance

You were a little bit salty.

You can't be salty, you were the damn cabot.

 

[Kyanrute]

You were a little bit salty.

You can't be salty, you were the damn cabot.

i might have had some legitimate balance concerns that were voiced in a manner that showcased my investment in the game, but salt, noooo, surely not

 

[cabot]

i might have had some legitimate balance concerns that were voiced in a manner that showcased my investment in the game, but salt, noooo, surely not

didnt even get a cabot diary.

 

[Kyanrute]

didnt even get a cabot diary.

the diary flew out of the window for some strange reason

this game is too balanced

there is nothing to complaing about


BORING

mazre claim is full bs or bear diary

any role that clears 4 townies is worth of a page in the bear diary

fuck i hate cops as a role

my kingdom for a game runner that makes it so that when cop uses their shitty ability, they die

oh and the command to use the ability would be FUCK YOU

 

[cabot]

lol but catzre got lucky, if they hit anyone other than townie it would have been pretty crap.

Except you, who claimed ordinary.

Oops.

 

[Kyanrute]

oh the ordinary claim was a shitpost aimed at anyone who was familiar with my previous two fake claims that both were ordinary town

 

[cabot]

oh the ordinary claim was a shitpost aimed at anyone who was familiar with my previous two fake claims that both were ordinary town

SURE IT WAS BRO, GOT YOUR BACK

FISTBUMP BETWEEN CABOTS

 

[Kyanrute]

Fistbumps and all that, but it really was. Of course, since I shitpost sarcastically in the nth dimension, nobody knows if I ever am serious or not. That's why it is fun.

 

[cabot]

Fistbumps and all that, but it really was. Of course, since I shitpost sarcastically in the nth dimension, nobody knows if I ever am serious or not. That's why it is fun.

That's true, at least we made avatars for each other.

 

[Sorian]

Can I be too lazy to quote? Because I am. To Flush's post above in the backseat modding section. If you have something to point out that you think the mod team hasn't noticed, point it out by PM, not on thread. Sometimes a player thinks something is a bigger deal than it is, if thy bring it up in thread, everyone will freeze up thinking the mod needs to respond when in actuality, the mod doesn't care and will just ignore it anyway.

 

[Royal_Flush]

Can I be too lazy to quote? Because I am. To Flush's post above in the backseat modding section. If you have something to point out that you think the mod team hasn't noticed, point it out by PM, not on thread. Sometimes a player thinks something is a bigger deal than it is, if thy bring it up in thread, everyone will freeze up thinking the mod needs to respond when in actuality, the mod doesn't care and will just ignore it anyway.

That was more directed at things like "x posted after day end and I think that post involved relevant content please modkill". If it's something you geniounly think the mod has missed surely Pm him or her.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Regardless of editing and typos, if you take away the no editing rule, you take away double posts

I'm not going to let that happen. Double posting is quite possibly the greatest gafia has, and ever will have, going for it

 

[cabot]

what about quintiple posts? That's where I specialise.

 

[Hyperactivity]

what about quintiple posts? That's where I specialise.

I know. You decide to go on gafia at 4 am in the morning, and everyone's gone, and for an hour and a half you generate like 10+ gigantic posts in a row so that in the morning everyone confused as to why they suddenly have to read so much more

 

[cabot]

I know. You decide to go on gafia at 4 am in the morning, and everyone's gone, and for an hour and a half you generate like 10+ gigantic posts in a row so that in the morning everyone confused as to why they suddenly have to read so much more

HEY!


It's called the european morning thank you very much.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Hi, guys

Unfortunately, I've received further feedback from GirlGAF thread that sort of reinforces that we might not be as welcoming as we thought we are. So, I am a little sad. I hope we can do better, because we shouldn't be a community where we weed out those that are different than "us" (for lack of better term, the current "us" that has gotten to be the established core members of the community).

I'm a girl and it seems that I've been lucky enough never to feel what the other GirlGAFfers felt about GAF Mafia but today I learned that there have been quiet and disappointed players that just had drifted away from us because we have made their experience playing with us not an experience they would want a repeat of.

OK. That's all from yeenz for now.

I'll update the summary later, plus the results from the survey, also.

 

[Sophia]

Hi, guys

Unfortunately, I've received further feedback from GirlGAF thread that sort of reinforces that we might not be as welcoming as we thought we are. So, I am a little sad. I hope we can do better, because we shouldn't be a community where we weed out those that are different than "us" (for lack of better term, the current "us" that has gotten to be the established core members of the community).

I'm a girl and it seems that I've been lucky enough never to feel what the other GirlGAFfers felt about GAF Mafia but today I learned that there have been quiet and disappointed players that just had drifted away from us because we have made their experience playing with us not an experience they would want a repeat of.

OK. That's all from yeenz for now.

I'll update the summary later, plus the results from the survey, also.

I definitely don't want to see people shy away because they feel unwelcome or intimidated by other players, especially in the case of the Discord. If there's anything I can do to help in the future regarding that, let me know. I'd gladly be willing to help mentor or be a mediator for future situations and stuff.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[Timeaisis]

I feel like a lot of posters are afraid of posting lack of content posts, e.g. check ins, gut reads, quick questions, observations, etc.

Seems to me we have an activity problem with really active posters who make big contributions and posters who put up like once a day but maybe afraid to contribute more because they lack something concrete to say. I know I've been there. Like i would rather stay silent and safe than post a quick line for fear of getting misinterpreted or called out as coasting. So if we had a means of promoting all posting styles, that'd be nice. Like the Ouro style.

Just a thought.

 

[Sophia]

I feel like a lot of posters are afraid of posting lack of content posts, e.g. check ins, gut reads, quick questions, observations, etc.

Seems to me we have an activity problem with really active posters who make big contributions and posters who put up like once a day but maybe afraid to contribute more because they lack something concrete to say. I know I've been there. Like i would rather stay silent and safe than post a quick line for fear of getting misinterpreted or called out as coasting. So if we had a means of promoting all posting styles, that'd be nice. Like the Ouro style.

Just a thought.

I actually had this problem in Werewolf 1, although partially attributed to my own social anxiety. It was difficult to post things like quick questions, observations, gut reads, etc, because I felt they were under scrutiny playing on the scum side. It wasn't until Love Boat did I really start to feel comfortable with my own posting style, and part of that was due to having Ty4on as a partner basically going "Go for it!" over and over when I was afraid to say something specifically. Even though I didn't finish Love Boat, it really got me out of my shell and got my confidence boosting. Going into Gods and Bachelor Party I felt a whole lot more assured in my posting style.

It's part of the reason why, whenever it's been brought up on Discord, I've mentioned being hugely in favor of the mentor system. Mafia's an intense experience, especially if you're on scum side to start out with. Having someone there who can hep you out when it comes to things like "Is it really okay to post this?" and such is a godsend for new players.

Related to this, but being able to bond well with Cabot (who was my scummate), Retro, Ynnny, Palmer, and the others really helped me bounce back after Werewolf 1 too. I don't think I'd still be here playing if not for them. <3

 

[RetroMG]

Just a side note. I've been working with a bunch of the other mods on some proposed player behavior guidelines, as well as steps for dealing with in-game issues. I hope to have something ready to show to the community as a whole by Monday or Tuesday.

EDIT: If you have input, please feel free to PM me.

 

[Hyperactivity]

I actually had this problem in Werewolf 1, although partially attributed to my own social anxiety. It was difficult to post things like quick questions, observations, gut reads, etc, because I felt they were under scrutiny playing on the scum side. It wasn't until Love Boat did I really start to feel comfortable with my own posting style, and part of that was due to having Ty4on as a partner basically going "Go for it!" over and over when I was afraid to say something specifically. Even though I didn't finish Love Boat, it really got me out of my shell and got my confidence boosting. Going into Gods and Bachelor Party I felt a whole lot more assured in my posting style.

It's part of the reason why, whenever it's been brought up on Discord, I've mentioned being hugely in favor of the mentor system. Mafia's an intense experience, especially if you're on scum side to start out with. Having someone there who can hep you out when it comes to things like "Is it really okay to post this?" and such is a godsend for new players.

Related to this, but being able to bond well with Cabot (who was my scummate), Retro, Ynnny, Palmer, and the others really helped me bounce back after Werewolf 1 too. I don't think I'd still be here playing if not for them. <3

To an extent, I think scum in general does that. It's not the case with every time, but I often find myself being closer to former scum mates quite a bit.

And having a veteran scum presence can be really useful.

 

[RetroMG]

It's part of the reason why, whenever it's been brought up on Discord, I've mentioned being hugely in favor of the mentor system. Mafia's an intense experience, especially if you're on scum side to start out with. Having someone there who can help you out when it comes to things like "Is it really okay to post this?" and such is a godsend for new players.

Dammit, I knew there was something I needed to tell Ynnny to put on the agenda for this thread.

So let's talk about Mentors. This is something we've experimented with before, back in S5. The idea is that we would pair a new player with a veteran player who is not playing in or spoiled on the game that the newbie is playing in. They would both have access to a private thread on Outer Gafia, where the mentor would be able to advise the new player on how to succeed at Mafia. The mentor would not be allowed to play for the newbie or overly infringe on the game - they are simply there to advise.

Thoughts? Questions? Comments? Baking Recipes? Would you like a mentor? Would you like to BE a mentor?

EDIT: I do tend to agree with Hyper that MOST new scum get built-in mentors in their scum thread.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

Hi, guys

Unfortunately, I've received further feedback from GirlGAF thread that sort of reinforces that we might not be as welcoming as we thought we are. So, I am a little sad. I hope we can do better, because we shouldn't be a community where we weed out those that are different than "us" (for lack of better term, the current "us" that has gotten to be the established core members of the community).

I'm a girl and it seems that I've been lucky enough never to feel what the other GirlGAFfers felt about GAF Mafia but today I learned that there have been quiet and disappointed players that just had drifted away from us because we have made their experience playing with us not an experience they would want a repeat of.

OK. That's all from yeenz for now.

I'll update the summary later, plus the results from the survey, also.

This is disappointing but even worse, unsurprising.

 

[Hyperactivity]

I uh, am not really sure about mentors per say. Love boat's system was GREAT though. With a strict mentor system though, the mentor has to follow the game to an extent, and be somewhat invested, and maybe basically playing. I also don't see mentors being as useful for new players that immediately immerse themselves in the game

I'd be for more love boat style games though, or even stuff like AC with a BUNCH of gossips.

I mean I guess maybe having some form of a mentor might work, but not so much in a specific game sense as reassuring or calm down voice. For scum, number one rule I tend to post at the beginning of the chat is to calm down, relax, don't worry so much etc, as you're probably overthinking everything.

I'm not sure about having a mentor per player, or if maybe we just get a veteran cover for a couple at once (by pm or different thread though)

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[cabot]

Didn't you also refuse to speak to a lady who tried to chat you up about Mafia? I appreciate your sacrifices, but only if they're related to me.

One of these days I'll be better at these things.

 

[roytheone]

Hi, guys

Unfortunately, I've received further feedback from GirlGAF thread that sort of reinforces that we might not be as welcoming as we thought we are. So, I am a little sad. I hope we can do better, because we shouldn't be a community where we weed out those that are different than "us" (for lack of better term, the current "us" that has gotten to be the established core members of the community).

I'm a girl and it seems that I've been lucky enough never to feel what the other GirlGAFfers felt about GAF Mafia but today I learned that there have been quiet and disappointed players that just had drifted away from us because we have made their experience playing with us not an experience they would want a repeat of.

OK. That's all from yeenz for now.

I'll update the summary later, plus the results from the survey, also.

That sucks I would love more GirlGAFfers here! Diversity is great and some games end up being pretty much a sausage party

 

[Xamtheking]

I welcome each and every new piece of fresh meat
I also don't care if new people are bad at mafia because I'm bad at mafia

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[Royal_Flush]

So did they describe that "feeling" a little more specific so we can work on the issue? And it obviously doesn't affect everyone. Dragonz for instance seems to like it here...

Ninja'd by weemad. This refers to ynnny.

E: Speaking of weemad's post: what does it mean to lose "the right to play with girls"? In which regard do you consider female (or non-cis-male if you want to phrase it more generalized) newbies different from male newbies? Or the community's attitude for that matter?

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[Xamtheking]

We really need to have an all-newbie game so new people can gently poke the surface of mafia without getting consumed by the more vigorous players among us

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[Xamtheking]

Yes, that could make people stick around until...oh...maybe their 4th game? It will not address the underlying issue.

I don't think that will magically solve everything, but it might be a good piece of a larger plan.

 

[weemadarthur]

.

 

[Xamtheking]

Right.

Sorry, I shouldn't make judgments during a brainstorming session. XD

4/24 players in Bloodborne were noobs. That's a pretty high percentage. Two of them I have no information on. One doesn't want to return. One does, when available. We had a couple other noobs in the other games. Even with 7 of them, that's not enough even for a vanilla 8player basic game, right? And we hadn't had that many noobs in a long time, there's usually been...more like 3 at the most. For a whole season.

I think we might attract more newbies if they know it'll be an even playing field for their first game. I think you're much more likely to participate in something if you know everyone else has roughly the same amount of knowledge as you do about it.
I'll miss your limericks, weemad.

 

[*Splinter]

I just want to play Mafia...