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[Etrian Oddity]

If they only ever allow control to do one thing at instant speed, it can't function. You can't sit there and hold up mana for a counter when you're opponent knows that the only thing you can do- likewise whats the point of holding up mana for instant speed draw if it's the only thing you can do; doing it at sorc speed serves the same purpose.

Instant speed draw is fine. Instant speed on the power level of DTT is not. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

It'll discourage a terrible, terrible archetype, so it's a good thing. Draw-go control is bad for the game because if it's strong. RDW/Atarka is basically all that can compete against it. There's a reason why Dang's deck got super popular about the same time Yasooka's deck got in vogue.

The whole "they'll learn and not do DTT/TC" doesn't work because they clearly don't want to learn. They LOVE buffing blue draw-go. R&D needs to throw the baby out with the bathwater because they have no self-control.

Draw and counter are the two most powerful abilities in Magic, I don't think anyone will argue that. They need to realize both cannot be strong at the same time. It needs to be a pendulum.

 

[traveler]

I dropped one of the five games I played to the esper control lists that are basically the closest thing the format has to draw go atm yesterday, (and that was to Silumgar- not the decks instant speed removal, counters, and draw) and megamorph is not atarka red. Draw and counters can both exists for control decks to use without draw go being oppressive. Do you even think counter is that strong right now? Dispel is arguably the best counterspell at the moment and it's pretty precise.

So completely different topic- is UB the best aristocrats build or is it simply getting the attention because its new? The GB list that crushed me got so much mileage out of evolutionary leap in the main that I feel like blue really has to bring a ton to warrant using it over something like that. Need to test out some lists to see how it fares against gw and jeskai over many matches. I definitely don't see my current deck beating it pre or post board, so something will have to change.

 

[blindrocket]

Here is my current decklist. I'm still unsure about the mana and I have no idea about the sideboard.

Land
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
3 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
1 Prairie Stream
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Sunken Hollow
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Siege Rhino
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Warden of the First Tree
3 Whisperwood Elemental

Instants
4 Abzan Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Murderous Cut
1 Secure the Wastes

Planeswalkers
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Sideboard:
3 Complete Disregard
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Dispel
1 Exert Influence
2 Felidar Cub
1 Self-Inflicted Wound
3 Surge of Righteousness
1 Utter End

 

[OnPoint]

1. I should have bought into The Aristocrats when I was talking about it earlier in the week (last week? Whatever). Fuck me.

2. I bought copies of two of the cards Kirblar suggested today, shortly after he suggested them. Both Archangel and Wingmate. Let's see if that pays off (spoiler: I think it will).

3. Snapcaster is destined to forever have "bad" art, apparently. I never thought the old art was THAT bad, just kind of odd. The new art is straight garbage. Also the reminder text is pointless, but doesn't bother me. At least it's not Semen Visions.

4. Maro really doesn't understand what made the Eldrazi special the first time around.

5. The Expedition Battlelands have the best art. They're pretty, and not just in comparison to the others, which are not. They're just simply pretty on their own.

 

[Ashodin]

I like this

She's doing the latest new dance craze, the Sarkhan Strut!

5. The Expedition Battlelands have the best art. They're pretty, and not just in comparison to the others, which are not. They're just simply pretty on their own.

If the answer isn't Sacred Foundry, it's the wrong answer.

 

[OnPoint]

If the answer isn't Sacred Foundry, it's the wrong answer.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COZgF-7UcAE2IPi.jpg[/im][/QUOTE]

This speaks to me more.

Plus I like Godless Shrine better than the one you picked out of that cycle :)

[img]http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2015/9/15/06_-_Cinder_Glade.jpg

 

[Ashodin]

Ahh white/black, you got me.

 

[OnPoint]

Ahh white/black, you got me.

Maybe, but I don't own any of them. So joke's on me I guess lol

 

["God's Beard!"]

I like this

She's doing the latest new dance craze, the Sarkhan Strut!

Tap the forest
Flip up the morph
Everybody walk the mist raptor

 

[Hero]

If they only ever allow control to do one thing at instant speed, it can't function. You can't sit there and hold up mana for a counter when you're opponent knows that the only thing you can do- likewise whats the point of holding up mana for instant speed draw if it's the only thing you can do; doing it at sorc speed serves the same purpose.

Instant speed draw is fine. Instant speed on the power level of DTT is not. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I don't follow along here. Sorcery speed draw does not serve the same purpose of instant speed draw ever.

Here's what happens where there is instant speed draw:

Draw, land, go.

Is my opponent playing a spell that I care about in main phase 1?
Yes - Let me counter it.
No - Let's wait to see what happens in the combat phase.

Is my opponent playing a spell that I care about in combat phase?
Yes - Let me counter it.
No - Maybe cast a removal spell. Or see what happens in main phase 2.

Is my opponent playing a spell that I care about in main phase 2?
Yes - Let me counter it.
No - Instant speed card draw during end of turn step.



No other deck archetypes ever get to play the game on this level where they get to interact on their opponents turn while still not losing tempo if their opponent doesn't do anything.

While DTT is entirely busted, it was a problem even with something like Think Twice.

 

[traveler]

Why didn't they go true full art.

They'd look so much better than the ones we got.

I don't follow along here. Sorcery speed draw does not serve the same purpose of instant speed draw ever.

Here's what happens where there is instant speed draw:

Draw, land, go.

Is my opponent playing a spell that I care about in main phase 1?
Yes - Let me counter it.
No - Let's wait to see what happens in the combat phase.

Is my opponent playing a spell that I care about in combat phase?
Yes - Let me counter it.
No - Maybe cast a removal spell. Or see what happens in main phase 2.

Is my opponent playing a spell that I care about in main phase 2?
Yes - Let me counter it.
No - Instant speed card draw during end of turn step.



No other deck archetypes ever get to play the game on this level where they get to interact on their opponents turn while still not losing tempo if their opponent doesn't do anything.

While DTT is entirely busted, it was a problem even with something like Think Twice.

I was responding to his proposal that only one thing should be good at instant speed in any given standard. If the only instant speed spells worth running are draw spells, then you have literally nothing to do at instant speed beside draw, so you might as well just cast it main phase since leaving up the mana to do it on their turn serves no purpose- there's nothing else you would do instead.

 

[Lucario]

Sam Black and Justin Cohen both went 8-3 with this G/W brew. Did it ever make it on camera?

Planeswalker (4)
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

Creature (14)
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Wingmate Roc

Sorcery (1)
1 Planar Outburst

Instant (5)
2 Dispel
3 Secure the Wastes

Enchantment (11)
4 Silkwrap
2 Stasis Snare
4 Retreat to Emeria
1 Quarantine Field

Land (25)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Canopy Vista
4 Plains
4 Forest
2 Prairie Stream
1 Blighted Woodland
2 Lumbering Falls


Sideboard (15)
4 Surge of Righteousness
1 Negate
2 Valorous Stance
1 Oblivion Sower
2 Erase
3 Den Protector
2 Evolutionary Leap

4 Retreat to Emeria really stuck out to me. I considered running two in Jeskai Ascendancy Tokens but never ending up testing with it.

Looks like the plan is to play a bunch of 2-for-1s while removing everything you can't block, then switch to the pump mode on Retreat once you've gotten ahead on board (likely through Secure the Wastes).

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They had a deck tech with him.

 

[traveler]

This speaks to me more.

Plus I like Godless Shrine better than the one you picked out of that cycle

This is Cinder Glade, not shrine.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

So completely different topic- is UB the best aristocrats build or is it simply getting the attention because its new? The GB list that crushed me got so much mileage out of evolutionary leap in the main that I feel like blue really has to bring a ton to warrant using it over something like that. Need to test out some lists to see how it fares against gw and jeskai over many matches. I definitely don't see my current deck beating it pre or post board, so something will have to change.

I think it's just because u/b has draw and removal, not to mention the suite of exploit from Silumgar.

Green is pretty clutch with Evolutionary Leap and From Beyond, though. Blue doesn't have an equivalent generator for sacrifice like green does.

I was responding to his proposal that only one thing should be good at instant speed in any given standard. If the only instant speed spells worth running are draw spells, then you have literally nothing to do at instant speed beside draw, so you might as well just cast it main phase since leaving up the mana to do it on their turn serves no purpose- there's nothing else you would do instead.

But Hero already pointed out just how ridiculously unbalanced their tempo is. They shouldn't be allowed to just sit on mana and play their entire turn and strategy on your turn. It's overpowered as shit. Don't let them draw and be able to play counters, hence put the good card draw at sorcery. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I think your mistaking what I'm saying. I'm saying that you can keep the counters at instant, but draw has to be sorcery speed.
You've gotta nerf one or the other.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

What's broken is being able to dig and still have mana up to counter

 

[OnPoint]

This is Cinder Glade, not shrine.

And if you read what I said, you can see that I clearly know that

 

[blindrocket]

Man, on card Steam Vents has the best expedition art.

 

[Firemind]

more people who favour godless shrine smh

 

[OnPoint]

more people who favour godless shrine smh

It's the coolest looking of the shock cycle. Forge is also cool and I like Breeding Pool quite a lot. Steam Vents looks cool on the card. Stomping Ground is the lamest of the 10 but I don't really like Fountain much either. I also like Arid Mesa and Polluted Delta. Scalding Tarn looks so much more evil than I think it should. Too dark a palette for me.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Windswept Heath is my favourite tbh

 

[Firemind]

It's the coolest looking of the shock cycle. Forge is also cool and I like Breeding Pool quite a lot. Steam Vents looks cool on the card. Stomping Ground is the lamest of the 10 but I don't really like Fountain much either. I also like Arid Mesa and Polluted Delta. Scalding Tarn looks so much more evil than I think it should. Too dark a palette for me.

Nah, Steam Vents looks coolest of the shocks. Godless Shrine is so drab. I honestly prefer Rob Alexander's or Cliff Childs's.

Off-topic, but do you still have that foil Thundermaw Hellkite? I can PM you a trade list if you're still willing to trade it.

 

[OnPoint]

Nah, Steam Vents looks coolest of the shocks. Godless Shrine is so drab. I honestly prefer Rob Alexander's or Cliff Childs's.

Off-topic, but do you still have that foil Thundermaw Hellkite? I can PM you a trade list if you're still willing to trade it.

I just think Shrine looks awesome, to me, it stands on its own. But then, I like BW a lot, so who knows, it's probably coloring my perception a little.

As for the Thundermaw, I believe I do. I can double check this afternoon when I get home from work. Hit me up with that list.

 

[y2dvd]

As far as my expedition Misty Rainforest goes, is it profitable to trade for badlands or should I hold onto it for a little while? I guess if anything, Misty can always go into my infect or EDH deck.

 

[OnPoint]

As far as my expedition Misty Rainforest goes, is it profitable to trade for badlands or should I hold onto it for a little while? I guess if anything, Misty can always go into my infect or EDH deck.

I'll gladly trade you a Badlands for it.

 

[Firemind]

lol yeah

that better be a blackborded badlands

 

[OnPoint]

lol yeah

that better be a blackborded badlands

I feel like y2dvd is a veteran and can search eBay. If he wants a Badlands for a Misty Exp, you let him make that trade

Spoiler

to me lol

 

[divisionbyzorro]

If you trade expedition Misty, trade up. Get multiple fetches. Get ABU duals. Don't trade "down;" even if it would get you a playset of all of the Tangolands/Santalands/Shittylands, don't do it. You'll regret it a year from now.

 

[Firemind]

what the actual fuck

khans fetches have nearly doubled in price this month

fucking battlelands man

 

[phazedplasma]

what the actual fuck

khans fetches have nearly doubled in price this month

fucking battlelands man

Thats sucks. I have all but 2 polluted deltas :\

I should just buy em they'll only go up.

 

[Firemind]

I imagine they will dip a bit once they rotate out, like the shocklands before, but yeah the $10 glory days are likely over.

 

[A Serious Man]

what the actual fuck

khans fetches have nearly doubled in price this month

fucking battlelands man

It was pretty obvious this would happen about two seconds after battlelands got revealed at PAX. I cleaned up the odds and ends I needed for full playsets that same week.

 

[cory64]

Concept vs Execution

This reads as really defensive. In general if something is intuitive, it's worth trying to change the rules, not the mechanic.

 

[The Technomancer]

Concept vs Execution

This reads as really defensive. In general if something is intuitive, it's worth trying to change the rules, not the mechanic.

Nah, I absolutely believe that there was no frame solution or color indicator that would express "colorlessness", if there's a problem with Devoid its not that it exists in the rules text.

The article didn't seem defensive, but it did sort of miss the point: it doesn't examine why colorlessness was supposed to mean something thematicaly

 

[cory64]

I was talking more about the examples at the beginning. Devoid needed the solution they ended up with, the problem is whether the game needed Devoid.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I thought it was interesting how people misunderstood a red-costed card with "This card is colorless" to mean that the card was both red and colorless, thus necessitating the wording "This card has no color," which itself had to be a keyword with reminder text since that phrase doesn't work as actual rules text.

Anyway, another interesting article today was No Rares, All Modern Combo, about a modern combo deck using Nettle Drone and Retraction Helix, and 0-cost artifacts, using only common and uncommon cards. Nettle Drone has an advantage over other cards that untap with artifacts/noncreatures in that you can have a second copy of Nettle Drone act as the finisher.

Also, tomorrow is MaRo's 20th anniversary at Wizards.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Devoid is just the Eldrazi tribal keyword.

I make this point every once in a while: killing Tribal takes away a tool that should be used for situations exactly like this one. They should have just made the Eldrazi spells "Tribal Sorcery - Eldrazi" and they're done. Then your other cards just say "When you cast an Eldrazi spell" or "power equal to the number of Eldrazi you control," etc.

Also why should the Eldrazi care if I cast an Artifact spell? Come on now.

Devoid didn't need to exist and shouldn't have existed.

 

[OnPoint]

Anyway, another interesting article today was No Rares, All Modern Combo, about a modern combo deck using Nettle Drone and Retraction Helix, and 0-cost artifacts, using only common and uncommon cards. Nettle Drone has an advantage over other cards that untap with artifacts/noncreatures in that you can have a second copy of Nettle Drone act as the finisher.

No rares except the lands, but I like that. It's a cool concept.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Devoid is just the Eldrazi tribal keyword.

I make this point every once in a while: killing Tribal takes away a tool that should be used for situations exactly like this one. They should have just made the Eldrazi spells "Tribal Sorcery - Eldrazi" and they're done. Then your other cards just say "When you cast an Eldrazi spell" or "power equal to the number of Eldrazi you control," etc.

Also why should the Eldrazi care if I cast an Artifact spell? Come on now.

Devoid didn't need to exist and shouldn't have existed.

But the issue is exactly that things like Nettle Drone would only care about Eldrazi spells instead of colorless spells. That would make the Eldrazi even less playable with other cards.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

But the issue is exactly that things like Nettle Drone would only care about Eldrazi spells instead of colorless spells. That would make the Eldrazi even less playable with other cards.

So? Tribal synergies are a huge part of Magic, and they make sense. Elves love elves. Zombies love zombies. Vampires love vampires. Allies love allies. The Eldrazi love...artifacts?

 

[SigmasonicX]

So? Tribal synergies are a huge part of Magic, and they make sense. Elves love elves. Zombies love zombies. Vampires love vampires. Allies love allies. The Eldrazi love...artifacts?

The difference is that elves and zombies were there from the beginning, and thus creating a new elf lord isn't parasitic at all. For newer creature types, they rarely do this. For instance, even with allies, they introduced rally to allow them to work better with non-ally creatures.

Besides, removing devoid and making the focus on tribal Eldrazi brings back the problem of cards like Nettle Drone being colored.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Also it becomes an issue if we get a good tribal spell that was playable in modern or eternal it'd grow tarmogoyf.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Besides, removing devoid and making the focus on tribal Eldrazi brings back the problem of cards like Nettle Drone being colored.

How is that a problem? The drones in ROE were colored as well.

 

[OnPoint]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";182201996]How is that a problem? The drones in ROE were colored as well.[/QUOTE]

I believe Maro has said that he didn't like that in RoE and this was their attempt to rectify that.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

What irks me is that they didn't really make them colorless. They just took otherwise normal creatures, slapped a label on them, and declared that they were colorless. It's a hack, and it feels like a hack.

I definitely understand wanting to avoid parasitic mechanics, but I don't think it's a bad thing to have a few of them from time to time. I suppose they really felt their hands were tied since they were also bringing back Allies, and they didn't want to make the block mechanics just be Tribal Allies vs Tribal Eldrazi. But I still really don't like Devoid. It's a patchwork job/hack in lieu of having anything better.

 

[WanderingWind]

Parasitic mechanics only become so when they're unfettered. In specific cases - like here with the Eldrazi - the simplest solution was to bring back tribal. From any angle you look at it, it was the easiest, most simple solution. But they took the Mass Effect 2 approach to design with certain mechanics and instead of restraining them and fixing things that went wrong, they declare it haram and never touch it again.

Also, stop trading expeditions people. Seriously. Unless they're reprinted in Oath, you're holding a unique piece of Magic history that likely will never get printed again. They seem ubiquitous now because the set is being opened. Give it time and they won't be. Remember, at one point people played full duels and Power 9 without sleeves. If you got sell it to eat or I dunno, buy your pet kangaroo insulin, then do what you got to do. Stop trading 'em though!

 

[Violet_0]

this could all have been easily avoided if they just didn't return to Zendikar in the first place. Such a dreadfully uninspired setting after Ravincia, Theros and Tarkir. Just take the full-art lands and landfall mechanic and go to fairy tale world or something

 

[OnPoint]

this could all have been easily avoided if they just didn't return to Zendikar in the first place. Such a dreadfully uninspired setting after Ravincia, Theros and Tarkir. Just take the full-art lands and landfall mechanic and go to fairy tale world or something

They had to return. It was hugely popular and they had to wrap the story up. I'm hoping they go the full way though and the Eldrazi destroy it. It would be more interesting than "winning".

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Also, stop trading expeditions people. Seriously. Unless they're reprinted in Oath, you're holding a unique piece of Magic history that likely will never get printed again. They seem ubiquitous now because the set is being opened. Give it time and they won't be. Remember, at one point people played full duels and Power 9 without sleeves. If you got sell it to eat or I dunno, buy your pet kangaroo insulin, then do what you got to do. Stop trading 'em though!

I can't blame someone for trading up in value though. You could theoretically turn an expedition Misty Rainforest into multiple playsets of fetchlands, or into revised duals. Just make sure you trade it for something that has proven eternal playability and that you're trading up in value. Trading them for multiple sets of Khans fetches is actually a reasonable thing to do if you don't own the fetches, since the Khans fetches will keep appreciating in value.

 

[Firemind]

Kill off Gideon while they're at it. I've had enough of his persona.