• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Magic: the Gathering - Battle for Zendikar |OT| Lands matter (but nothing else does)

Status
Not open for further replies.
U

ultron87

Member
I'm not saying it is dramatic or wrong or whatever. It just does show a slight shift on what had felt like a pretty hard line up to now.
 
E

El Topo

Member
Angry Grimace said:
This isn't a particularly crazy expansion of Red's color pie, guys.

You have to discard your hand to get one card. It's the same bullshit as Avaricious Dragon.
Click to expand...

It's a one-sided Winds of Change that grants you actual, controllable card advantage. It's not insane, but it's a nice effect and I think it's design space they might explore.
Blue draws first, then (maybe) discards. Red discards first, then draws.
 
M

MjFrancis

Member
Big fan of the Geist of Saint Traft reprint for the upcoming Blessed versus Cursed duel deck as well as the new demon, and I'm a fan of the new Nissa. Maybe fit her in a G/W tokens deck. Always interested in trying to fit a three-mana planeswalker in a deck. Also, sucker for Raymond Swanland art.
 
R

Royal_Flush

Member
Angry Grimace said:
This isn't a particularly crazy expansion of Red's color pie, guys.

You have to discard your hand to get one card. It's the same bullshit as Avaricious Dragon.
Click to expand...
No it's not. That dragon makes you discard you hand in the hope that the second trigger ever happens. Chandra guarantees you to draw the cards if you discard your hand.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Chandra's ability draws with card advantage, doesn't help your opponents, and actually lets you keep the cards. I'm not sure why you guys are trying to dispute that this is new territory for red, when they had previously drawn a hard line against this sort of ability.
 
F

Firemind

Member
yeah, if you draw seven new cards.

it's better than tolarian winds, but let's not pretend that drawing cards is outside of red's pie.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Firemind said:
okay, then what about sarkhan the dragonspeaker emblem?
Click to expand...

I think people just really, really, really want a completely obvious variant on looting and/or shitty red card draw to be OMG EXPANSION OF RED to the point that no reasonable logic is going to get through (despite the fact that discarding your hand and getting the same number of cards is completely unplayable jank). I can already tell Maro is going to get this question and give the exact same answer - it's just a looting variant, there's nothing in the color pie that prevents you from getting more cards than you lose if you pay enough. It's not like, cards like, Reforge the Soul was printed so long ago to actually believe this kind of effect isn't a Red thing.
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I think people just really, really, really want a completely obvious variant on looting and/or shitty red card draw to be OMG EXPANSION OF RED to the point that no reasonable logic is going to get through (despite the fact that discarding your hand and getting the same number of cards is completely unplayable jank). I can already tell Maro is going to get this question and give the exact same answer - it's just a looting variant, there's nothing in the color pie that prevents you from getting more cards than you lose if you pay enough. It's not like, cards like, Reforge the Soul was printed so long ago to actually believe this kind of effect isn't a Red thing.
Click to expand...

But MaRo has said that red isn't supposed to get card advantage with its looting. That's even why discarding was part of the cost and not the effect, so you couldn't draw a card off an empty hand. Also remember that he's opposed to "discard hand, draw seven cards" effects in red.

EDIT: I'm not arguing that this is a huge shift for red, but this is something very unexpected given MaRo's resistance to letting red draw cards with card advantage.
 
U

ultron87

Member
We're not arguing whether it's good or not. Just that permanent card draw with card advantage with a few exceptions hasn't been part of Red's color pie before.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/card-duty-part-1-2014-07-07

Normally, red is fourth when it comes to card drawing (ahead of only white). We let red have looting and Winds of Change–style cards, but neither of these gain card advantage. We do the impulsive drawing (see above), which can allow card advantage, but has a small window of opportunity.
Click to expand...

Does it represent some crazy sea change? Probably not (just like Aggressive Mining didn't signal this). But it's a thing to point out.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
COLOR PIE WAR

rick-morty-race-war-2.gif
 
K

kirblar

Member
SigmasonicX said:
But MaRo has said that red isn't supposed to get card advantage with its looting. That's even why discarding was part of the cost and not the effect, so you couldn't draw a card off an empty hand. Also remember that he's opposed to "discard hand, draw seven cards" effects in red.
Click to expand...
Normally it doesnt. WoF effects have needed the buff for an eternity because they have been card disadvantage, not parity.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Red has always and currently does have the ability to get card advantage, its just sucky card advantage like you see here. It doesn't change what red does and I think, from a design perspective, its super limited to suggest they can't come up with new ways for red to get the sucky card advantage its always had without changing what red fundamentally does.

Changing the color pie involves changing what the color fundamentally does, not tinkering with specific effects to make the color do what it already fundamentally does.
 
L

Lucario

Member
Every time I read Kozilek's Return the card gets more absurd.

I just noticed it's an instant. Thought it was a slightly overcosted Pyroclasm that killed Kor Firewalker/Etched Champion/Auriok Champion with the bonus of being fetchable by Ancient Stirrings.

But it kills animated inkmoths too? Jesus. What an absurd card. It's really dirty that they made this thing mythic when it's just a better Pyroclasm for Modern Tron. I assume it got pushed up from rare after FFL drafts kept getting blown out by the recursion ability? Being able to clear out the board on turn 3/4 then stabilize with a Ruin Processor later on seems pretty much unbeatable.

Annoying to think that the recursion ability that pushed it to mythic is the least relevant thing about it in constructed.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It's Mythic for the same reason Deathmist Raptor is Mythic, I guess.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Really big MTGO news:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/MTGO/articles/archive/magic-online/year-of-modern-flashbacks-2015-12-14

Next year they will do Flashback drafts EVERY WEEK for every Modern legal set they can do (it can't get all the way through because there are too many sets). The drafts will cost 10 tickets, and are NON-phantom. The caveat is that they pay out in Play Points vs. boosters of those sets.

Schedule to start:

12/30/2015 to 1/6/2016 - 3x Eighth Edition

1/6/2016 to 1/13/2016 - 3x Mirrodin

1/13/2016 to 1/20/2016 - 2x Mirrodin, 1x Darksteel

1/20/2016 to 1/27/2016 - 1x Mirrodin, 1x Darksteel, 1x Fifth Dawn

1/27/2016 to 2/17/2016 (Break for Oath of the Gatewatch release events)

2/17/2016 to 2/24/2016 - 3x Champions of Kamigawa

2/24/2016 to 3/2/2016 - 2x Champions of Kamigawa, 1x Betrayers of Kamigawa

3/2/2016 to 3/9/2016 - 1x Champions of Kamigawa, 1x Betrayers of Kamigawa, 1x Saviors of Kamigawa

3/9/2016 to 3/16/2016 - 3x Ninth Edition

3/16/2016 to 3/23/2016 - 3x Ravnica: City of Guilds

3/23/2016 to 3/30/2016 - 2x Ravnica: City of Guilds, 1x Guildpact

3/30/2016 to 4/6/2016 - 1x Ravnica: City of Guilds,1x Guildpact, 1x Dissension

4/6/2016 to 4/13/2016 - 3x Coldsnap

4/13/2016 to 5/4/2016 (Break for Shadows over Innistrad release events)

5/4/2016 to 5/11/2016 - 3x Time Spiral

5/11/2016 to 5/18/2016 - 2x Time Spiral and 1x Planar Chaos

5/18/2016 to 5/25/2016 - 1x Time Spiral, 1x Planar Chaos, and 1x Future Sight

5/25/2016 to 6/1/2016 - 3x Tenth Edition
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Firemind said:
Ravnica and Time Spiral are cool. The rest is absolute garbage.
Click to expand...

They're doing all of them, they just don't want to specify when SOI's second set and the fall set come out. The idea is that you can experience every draft format in Modern in order including the evolution of specific draft formats as new sets come out.
 
F

Firemind

Member
Angry Grimace said:
They're doing all of them, they just don't want to specify when SOI's second set and the fall set come out. The idea is that you can experience every draft format in Modern in order including the evolution of specific draft formats as new sets come out.
Click to expand...
So only three blocks worth drafting then?

3xLorwyn, meh. Shadowmoor was alright.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Firemind said:
So only three blocks worth drafting then?

3xLorwyn, meh. Shadowmoor was alright.
Click to expand...

They're just doing all of them in order...if a format "isn't worth drafting" to you, its because the original format wasn't worth drafting to you.

IDK, this is really cool. Complaining that they don't just run your pet format all of the time is just kind of being a negative nancy.
 
U

ultron87

Member
10 tickets is actually the price point where I'd consider doing some online drafts. The usual price has always felt so high for things that I could only turn into more drafts since playing constructed was never going to happen.
 
D

duxstar

Member
So im still holding out hope for my white mythics ......

Quick thoughts on some of the spoiled cards

Chandra - No idea what kind of red deck wants her, maybe as a finisher? The - ability is the important part but with 4 man lands running around i don't see it being that big of a deal, the + is ok but is only good when your ahead; 3/1's with haste are a big deal but the fact they don't protect her for the next turn is kind of disappointing. Also at 6 mana she still doesn't deal with any of the best creatures in the format (like how i avoided specifically saying siege rhino).

So lets look at her all together, her + is great when you are the beatdown deck, but terrible on defense, her 0 ability is pretty much just draw a card if you have no cards in hand, and can help if your out of gas, her - is good to get back in a game but does nothing against some of the best creatures in the format.

I don't think she's that great but what the hell do i know, I thought Jace was garbage and look how wrong i was there.

Nissa, Voice of Zendikar - Not even going to go in depth here. a 3 mana planeswalker is nice, but theres 0 way I would play it over the current Nissa we have. There's no way to get to the ultimate in a timely manner, and an 0/1 a turn is worse than gideon's 2/2 a turn, and adding a counter to each creature was rarely effective with ajani steadfast (who didn't protect himself but still had a similar effect), so i doubt it is here. I love green/white decks and will try to build around this card (maybe g/w planeswalkers or something) but I don't have high hopes.

Kozileks Return - Card is batshit insane; first of all its an instant speed anger of the gods/pyroclasm effect.I don't know if that has EVER been printed; I haven't been around long enough to know, but a 3 mana deal 2 to each creature instant speed spell is insane as is.

The second part just says that we didn't get the message, this is wizards saying, hey we want eldrazi ramp decks pushed in standard, Good luck aggro with this card around. First we'll wipe the board, then we'll wipe it again in another turn or 2. This card is good because it does deal with ALOT of the creatures in standard right now. Tasigur, Siege Rhino, Mantis Rider, hell it even prevents a dragonmaster outcast from taking over a game.


Worldbreaker - Will do little to break the world, unless your looking at a green ramp strategy. Sure it's a great card if you can get to 7 mana, but what decks are doing that right now ? Sure the first part is great (when you cast) you can grab a stasis snare, or a land, but there's too much exile in the format to make the second ability worth much anymore.


Kalitas the traitor - Black isn't my forte but this card seem's really really good, once again it makes cards going to the graveyard exile themselves when they die, and gives you a 2/2, 3/4 lifelink is also a fairly decent game and the ability to make it a 5/6 lifelink is a big game.

Ayli looks ok, 2 mana 2/3 deathtouch, Im sure theres some deck that wants it but I doubt the life part will ever come up.




Im bored, some of these "quick takes" went longer than i wanted. Btw just to remind everyone, at the beginning of this set I said that "everything will be 4 or 5 colors, abzan is still the best deck its just splashing now, and that g/w megamorph is dead"

Which one of those things isn't true at the moment ? Battle for Zendikar is a terrible set, maybe Oath can save it, or just Siege Rhino rotating out will make it slightly better.
 
S

Santiako

Member
bigkrev said:
Hey, my favorite limited format ever happens the week of my birthday!
Now I know what these 60 tickets from Mishra's Bauble are going towards!



This is a terrible opinion.
Click to expand...

yesss Kamigawa block draft was super fun. (No Saviours though, that set ruined the block).
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Actual link to the article. I wonder if he knows that MaRo confirmed on Blogatog that colorless mana costs are only going to be in this set, and while it is possible for it to show up later, it's going to show up less often than hybrid mana. And he can't seem to get that generic mana only applies to costs, just like hybrid.

Also, he brings up Basalt Monolith losing the symmetry of adding (3) and having an activated ability for (3), but that seems like a good example of where a new player can get tripped up, as MaRo has claimed. Can the (3) only be paid for by (3)?
 
C

charlequin

Banned
Angry Grimace said:
IDK, this is really cool. Complaining that they don't just run your pet format all of the time is just kind of being a negative nancy.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is legit exciting for me. If they wanted to come up with the type of announcement that would actually get me to consider opening MTGO again, this is about as good as they could do short of making it not terrible garbage.

bigkrev said:
Hey, my favorite limited format ever happens the week of my birthday!
Click to expand...

CHK CHK BOK over CHKx3?
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
Hero said:
I feel like the 6th color is going to be the big thing for the 25th anniversary year.
Click to expand...

Unlikely, given this post
magmapriest asked: Why wasn't Wastes given a basic land type?

Because we didn’t want to have to teach beginners that Magic had six basic land types ten years from now when Oath of Gatewatch was a thing from the distant past.
Click to expand...

Plus, MaRo seems to have given up on the main purpose of a sixth color
trifas asked: Will Domain ever go to 6 or is Wastes the last chapter in Barry's Land story?

We’ve chosen the costs to get Domain to 6 isn’t worth the impact it would have on the game and in tournaments.
Click to expand...
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
SigmasonicX said:
Actual link to the article. I wonder if he knows that MaRo confirmed on Blogatog that colorless mana costs are only going to be in this set, and while it is possible for it to show up later, it's going to show up less often than hybrid mana. And he can't seem to get that generic mana only applies to costs, just like hybrid.

Also, he brings up Basalt Monolith losing the symmetry of adding (3) and having an activated ability for (3), but that seems like a good example of where a new player can get tripped up, as MaRo has claimed. Can the (3) only be paid for by (3)?
Click to expand...

Let's put it this way: if they wrote on Kozilek, "spend at least 2 colorless mana to cast Kozilek" it would be functionally identical and people arguing its now the 6th color would sound delusional.
 
T

The Adder

Banned
In regards to Chandra's ability and Red's piece of the color pie.

Tossing a bird in the hand for two in the bush seems pretty red to me.
 
Y

Yeef

Member
Red doesn't typically get card advantage through drawing; it gets it through removal (Arc Lightning, Radiant Flames, etc.) or temporary draws (exile, use it or lose it). Chandra getting card advantage via draw power is a significant color pie bend. I don't think it'll set a precedent though.

I wouldn't be surprised if in design it didn't give you the extra card and development just added it to try and give it a little extra push.
 
O

OnPoint

Member
Hero said:
I feel like the 6th color is going to be the big thing for the 25th anniversary year.
Click to expand...

I feel like it's never coming. And I actually hope for that. I think the 5 colors (+colorless) have incredible balance and depth (nowadays. Obv blue used to be way OP).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Japanese indie dev announces 'Witch The Showdown', a parry-action and deck-building roguelike game
Game Dev
5
796
lughnasadh123 replied
Sand Land | Review Thread
Opinion Analysis Review
16
2K
adamsapple replied
Riviera: The Promised Land remaster for PC launches July 17 worldwide
News
14
869
Davevil replied
PSVR2 PC gaming adapter reviews
5 6 7 8 9
434
27K
nemiroff replied
  • Poll
How do you Rate the Nintendo Direct + Indie Showcase?
Community Event 2
66
3K
NanaMiku replied
Top Bottom