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[WanderingWind]

I'm definitely settled on splashing white for Eldrazi in modern. Path is just too good. Not sold on Souls just yet. A lot of good tools to play with though.

 

[ironmang]

Maybe they knew something was coming down the pipe which will make UR better.....:-V

I don't think this was the right move in any aspect really. Tron is unbeatable now and on the heels of the Pod banning I think it adds far too much uncertainty to the format's reliability, especially given that Modern decks cost more than a used car.

I'm just concerned this leads to an endless cycle of bans.

I agree with the twin ban being dumb. I thought if they were going to do it they should have done it 1-2 years ago. Ulamog and Rending Volley made the tron matchup a lot less easy than it was in the past. That's in addition to the grixis, abzans, and junds of the world that all pushed twin around. Even with Affinity I was never unhappy to see twin and considered it a solid 50/50.

Pod though definitely had it coming. Seemed every set we were getting a Sin Collector or a Siege Rhino that just added more and more to a deck that was already the biggest threat to make top 8s.

And ya, tron is bullshit now. Ulamog is just too good.

 

[red13th]

Nice, they banned Twin. Good riddance, hate that deck.

 

[Horatorobor]

Managed to get this going

draining 2 every turn was kinda strong.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Wow. They really did it. I like PVs response:

Very disappointed at the bans. Amulet had to go, but so did many other things. Twin could go as well, but not while we had stuff like Tron and Goryo's Vengeance in the format. You either ban all that, or you leave in Twin. It was one of the few remaining decks that could beat the other linear decks without drawing specific sideboard hate.

What irks me the most is the reasoning for the Twin ban. This article seems to have been written by someone who has never played the format, was told to come up with a ban, and just looked at some GP lists. The first argument is that there were Twin decks in 6 of 8 GP top 8s. If Twin is a deck that is 15% of the field, isn't that a normal, expected and healthy amount of Twins doing well?

And when they say "Temur Tempo was a deck but has been supplanted by Temur Twin"... clearly that deck ceased to exist the moment they banned Treasure Cruise, it had NOTHING to do with Twin being a better version of it (and Twin was always legal while that deck existed anyway). It scares me to think they're making ban decisions using this awful logic.

To be fair, the logic cited for bans is usually suspect - they rarely give these the discussion they deserve in their announcements. But it really does play into the meme of "don't spend money on Modern - your favorite deck could get banned anytime."

Get ready for super shitty Modern. All those dumbass linear and bad combo decks (Goryo's, Ad Naus, etc) just got waaaaaaaay better.

 

[f0rk]

B/x seems like the only deck left that plays actually magic.

 

[red13th]

But it really does play into the meme of "don't spend money on Modern - your favorite deck could get banned anytime."

It does, Modern is more of a rotating format with slightly longer rotations.
Also, Splinter Twin was reprinted a few months ago in MM15 :lol

 

[Wichu]

Sweet, time to pick up Azusas for cheap.

Spoiler

And play Bloom Titan Azusa Titan!

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It does, Modern is more of a rotating format with slightly longer rotations.

Yeah, also, fuck this about Modern. It's not a non-rotating format. It's a format where the metagame is arbitrarily fucked with in the name of "diversity" once a year two weeks ahead of the Modern Pro Tour. The random unbans I've been pretty cool with. This fucking irks me like you wouldn't believe. And I don't even play Modern anymore.

I mean, I get it. This means they can look at Ancestral Vision without making UR better, or Stoneforge Mystic without having to deal with a Jeskai Stoneblade/Twin monster. I get it. It doesn't mean I like it.

 

[ThLunarian]

Sweet, time to pick up Azusas for cheap.

Spoiler

And play Bloom Titan Azusa Titan!

You think Azusa is gonna go down? I have fond memories of that card. It was the commander of my first actual good EDH deck.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

So this was my deck yesterday

I played a stomping 7 rares all of them playable, yet only went 2-1-1. I think my deck had too much filler. Eldrazi Displacer + Dominator Drone were the MVP closely followed by Ayli.

The draw my opponent didn't want to concede despite being far behind which is fair and considering the prize packs gave me this, potato quality

I'm not even mad.


Honest question though how do you beat a 5/5 flying hexproof can't be countered creature and how do you beat them regrowing it after you managed to edict it?

Managed to get this going draining 2 every turn was kinda strong.

That's how I did it

+

 

[y2dvd]

17 is the correct land count this time around? Gonna try to do an event today.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

This comment from MTGS perfectly sums up what I'm thinking about Modern and am too tired to properly express myself:

The problem is the format is already too diverse, there are too many weird uninteractive linear decks. This forces fair decks to have to fight on too many fronts without enough good universal answers.

You could sit down at any modern tournament and expect to face any one of these mostly linear decks. Do you know how hard it is to answer so much diversity in linear decks? We want a diversity of fair decks, we want less linear/unfair stuff.

You know what Twin was doing? It was keeping all of these weird, wacky uninteractive linear combo decks in check.

I'm very afraid that without Twin there to be the club's bouncer, we are about to be overrun by a whole bunch of undesirable filth.

 

[Hero]

That explanation doesn't make sense at all, nor does the analogy.

The best tempo deck with random free wins via a two card combo was keeping what decks in check exactly? How does Splinter Twin keep anything in check by itself? By winning faster?

U/r tempo still has remand, boomerang, exarch/faerie and dispel to combat decks fairly.

 

[Daedardus]

The only fact that Tempo Twin was threathening was because your opponent played like you could drop a Twin every moment, keeping him in check. Yes, it's true that Twin didn't always win with the combo, but without it's almost useless against the many other combo decks out there. Tron and Affinity have now free rein and I doubt the format will be more diverse with Twin banned.

 

[Hero]

The only fact that Tempo Twin was threathening was because your opponent played like you could drop a Twin every moment, keeping him in check. Yes, it's true that Twin didn't always win with the combo, but without it's almost useless against the many other combo decks out there. Tron and Affinity have now free rein and I doubt the format will be more diverse with Twin banned.

Do you realize how format warping it is to allow a deck to exist that you can never tap out against because half of their combo is at instant speed, while also disrupting your mana and/or creatures? Think about that for some time.

Tron and Affinity will no doubt see spikes since they are proven tier one decks but several cards in different colors exist to hose them.

 

[Horatorobor]

So this was my deck yesterday
That's how I did it

I missed the white eldrazi for that combo, but I still triggered that a few times.
BFZ and OGW still have some cool cards that go well together.

 

[Wichu]

You think Azusa is gonna go down? I have fond memories of that card. It was the commander of my first actual good EDH deck.

The only reason for its high price was Bloom Titan. With that out of the competitive scene, I can't see it keeping its price tag.

 

[GoutPatrol]

I always thought they would ban Exarch, not Twin. Oh well, 4x Ghost Quarters in all my decks now.

Modern isn't a "ban the best deck" format, but is a "ban a deck that's named for one card" format.

 

[WanderingWind]

Do you realize how format warping it is to allow a deck to exist that you can never tap out against because half of their combo is at instant speed, while also disrupting your mana and/or creatures? Think about that for some time.

Tron and Affinity will no doubt see spikes since they are proven tier one decks but several cards in different colors exist to hose them.

I don't particularly care as this banning is good for me, but your arguments are empty. "Format warping" is true of any card, deck or strategy that is good. Tron is format warping. Burn is format warping. Anything that wins any reasonable percentage is format warping. It's an entirely empty phrase. It's meaningless.

Your second point is that Twin was, in fact, a combo deck. All combos are designed the win the game. If you don't kill or block a creature with infect you can lose. If you don't offset the life loss of burn you will lose. Simply describing the method in which a deck wins is meaningless.

Lastly, there were also cards that existed to hose Twin. If it was unacceptable to have that deck because it required a mana investment "if you don't have X and Y and mana, you just lose" then that should be true for every other hoser card.

I don't mean to pick on your arguments in specific, but there are a few of these types of wholly unsupported statements being tossed around as if they mean anything. WotC felt that Twin took up too much of the meta in a specific color combo and that it was winning too much.

Of course, statistically, it wasn't winning much more than other T1 decks, so ultimately it comes down to them wanting to see more diversity among UR decks and the general feelbads combo generates. I agree that it would be nice to have more viable options at UR, but I disagree with their given reason. Their reasons weren't really supported well, as pros have been pointing out. A deck being between 11-15 percent of the overall meta is not stifling.

 

[El Topo]

This comment from MTGS perfectly sums up what I'm thinking about Modern and am too tired to properly express myself:

I think "That one combo deck was keeping those other combo decks in check" is not exactly a good defense. It seems like a somewhat unjustified ban though, all things considered.

 

[kirblar]

Maybe they knew something was coming down the pipe which will make UR better.....:-V

I don't think this was the right move in any aspect really. Tron is unbeatable now and on the heels of the Pod banning I think it adds far too much uncertainty to the format's reliability, especially given that Modern decks cost more than a used car.

I'm just concerned this leads to an endless cycle of bans.

This is the last necessary longstanding issue ban that isnt massaging the edges. (Blood Moon and SSG are both marginal ones.)

Twin was horrible for the format, but it took them way too long to realize just how bad it was.

Watch out for product announcements btw. If Commander decks are announced for Spring 2016, we are getting something crazy (eternal masters) in the fall.

 

[Hero]

I don't particularly care as this banning is good for me, but your arguments are empty. "Format warping" is true of any card, deck or strategy that is good. Tron is format warping. Burn is format warping. Anything that wins any reasonable percentage is format warping. It's an entirely empty phrase. It's meaningless.

Your second point is that Twin was, in fact, a combo deck. All combos are designed the win the game. If you don't kill or block a creature with infect you can lose. If you don't offset the life loss of burn you will lose. Simply describing the method in which a deck wins is meaningless.

Lastly, there were also cards that existed to hose Twin. If it was unacceptable to have that deck because it required a mana investment "if you don't have X and Y and mana, you just lose" then that should be true for every other hoser card.

I don't mean to pick on your arguments in specific, but there are a few of these types of wholly unsupported statements being tossed around as if they mean anything. WotC felt that Twin took up too much of the meta in a specific color combo and that it was winning too much.

Of course, statistically, it wasn't winning much more than other T1 decks, so ultimately it comes down to them wanting to see more diversity among UR decks and the general feelbads combo generates. I agree that it would be nice to have more viable options at UR, but I disagree with their given reason. Their reasons weren't really supported well, as pros have been pointing out. A deck being between 11-15 percent of the overall meta is not stifling.

There's a difference between format warping and defining.

Jace, The Mind Sculptor is a format warping card, which made Cawblade a format warping deck. Tron and Affinity are examples of format defining and pillars of the modern format.

I did not state Splinter Twin was a combo deck. I have repeatedly stated that the deck is broken because it is a tempo deck that will randomly steal games because of a two card combo that is backed up by cheap counter spells.

Youre free to disagree with me if you want but I've been saying for years the card needed to go.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I think "That one combo deck was keeping those other combo decks in check" is not exactly a good defense. It seems like a somewhat unjustified ban though, all things considered.

I actually think that it's better for the format to have a single "gatekeeper".

Twin could beat the myriad decks in the format by executing its primary gameplan, which meant it didn't need wacky sideboard cards against a lot of different decks. That meant that you could legitimately just build with Twin in mind and let Twin do the heavy lifting in shutting down the other decks. Twin was the gatekeeper to Tier 1 - you had to hang with Twin to get there. I legitimately think that was a good thing - it kept Tier 1 (and 1.5) to a reasonable size. Good luck metagaming against the field now!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I missed the white eldrazi for that combo, but I still triggered that a few times.
BFZ and OGW still have some cool cards that go well together.

The Card is bonkers, another combo was flickering the blocker of my 5/5 hasty trampler and trampling over 5.
Another reason why the way trample works is stupid.

The games were super grindy though. I only met 1 aggressive deck and even that played blue for the top end. Almost went to time all but 1 round.

 

[An-Det]

Watch out for product announcements btw. If Commander decks are announced for Spring 2016, we are getting something crazy (eternal masters) in the fall.

Is there anyone talking about that besides the poster on Reddit that said they predicted the ban from a leak at gp Oakland?

 

[kirblar]

Is there anyone talking about that besides the poster on Reddit that said they predicted the ban from a leak at gp Oakland?

Nope. But they kept the Twin ban pretty locked down (I suggested shipping the Exarchs ASAP as a safety measure, I was down on them having the balls to actually do this) - so if we see something funny happening to the Spring/Fall supplement schedule, we'll know whats up.

 

[WanderingWind]

There's a difference between format warping and defining.

Jace, The Mind Sculptor is a format warping card, which made Cawblade a format warping deck. Tron and Affinity are examples of format defining and pillars of the modern format.

I did not state Splinter Twin was a combo deck. I have repeatedly stated that the deck is broken because it is a tempo deck that will randomly steal games because of a two card combo that is backed up by cheap counter spells.

Youre free to disagree with me if you want but I've been saying for years the card needed to go.

I mean, you don't have to state facts. Twin is a combo deck. By any and all metrics. And there have been people beating the drum for its banning. None of whom have done a single bit of showing why. Plenty of telling, but no facts to support its banning. Ultimately, the feelbads were too great and WotC moved on it. So be it. Again, more Tron is good for me.

 

[Wulfric]

Eternal Masters certainly sounds like it would be an interesting set. Could that be why Wizards was making phone calls to LGS hosting proxy filled legacy/vintage tournaments? The market price on a set like this would be through the roof, naturally.

Anyways, I'm headed off to prerelease.

 

[kirblar]

I mean, you don't have to state facts. Twin is a combo deck. By any and all metrics. And there have been people beating the drum for its banning. None of whom have done a single bit of showing why. Plenty of telling, but no facts to support its banning. Ultimately, the feelbads were too great and WotC moved on it. So be it. Again, more Tron is good for me.

Bullshit.

Complete and utter bullshit.

kirblar024.wordpress.com

Fuck off with that shit- I've stated my reasons for four damn years.

Every UR deck was better with Twin in it. Control? Add Twin! Tempo? Add Twin! Fae? Add Twin! It was wrong not to, and that was a huge problem, in addition to all the other negative effects it had on the format.

 

[Magic Pancake]

Uhh, man, I do not appreciate the twin ban. I only play Grixis Delver in modern but I'm scared of the precedent that this banning sets. I haven't been playing that much recently, and I'm considering just selling out.

Weirdly, glad that amulet's gone.

 

[kirblar]

Uhh, man, I do not appreciate the twin ban. I only play Grixis Delver in modern but I'm scared of the precedent that this banning sets. I haven't been playing that much recently, and I'm considering just selling out.

Weirdly, glad that amulet's gone.

The big cards on the "danger" list are now Eldrazi Temple and Blood Moon.

The format's stable in terms of buying in (note that the rest of the Twin decks are still plenty valuable) - just keep your ear to the ground.

 

[WanderingWind]

Bullshit.

Complete and utter bullshit.

kirblar024.wordpress.com

Fuck off with that shit- I've stated my reasons for four damn years.

Every UR deck was better with Twin in it. Control? Add Twin! Tempo? Add Twin! Fae? Add Twin! It was wrong not to, and that was a huge problem, in addition to all the other negative effects it had on the format.

Wow. Linking to your own blog as proof of a thing. Well, let me link to my blog as a counter. Or I won't because that's nonsense.

 

[kirblar]

Wow. Linking to your own blog as proof of a thing. Well, let me link to my blog as a counter. Or I won't because that's nonsense.

Well, good to know you'll dismiss opinions as just "feelings" when you disagree with them.

 

[blackflag]

I can't believe they didn't touch grishoalbrand. It's bound to get more play after last week's SCG and after banning twin. I lost to it last week on turn2....2 games in a row.

 

[Hero]

I mean, you don't have to state facts. Twin is a combo deck. By any and all metrics. And there have been people beating the drum for its banning. None of whom have done a single bit of showing why. Plenty of telling, but no facts to support its banning. Ultimately, the feelbads were too great and WotC moved on it. So be it. Again, more Tron is good for me.

Twin was conceived as a combo deck originally but because it was so versatile it easily went into any U/r deck which kirblar has already pointed out. It's like vintage decks running Time Vault and Voltaic Key because it gives you random free wins out of no where. The decks can tempo you out or still kill you with traditional damage and burn spells.

I like how you blame this on feel bads instead of data though, that's really cute.

 

[Magic Pancake]

The big cards on the "danger" list are now Eldrazi Temple and Blood Moon.

The format's stable in terms of buying in (note that the rest of the Twin decks are still plenty valuable) - just keep your ear to the ground.

I'll be honest, I just don't believe that any more. What's stopping them from deciding that fetchlands add to much consistency and time shuffling, or that snapcaster mage is in too many blue decks. This seems to be confirmation of the joke that bannings is modern's way of rewarding a deck that's good.

Also, think you seriously overrate the Eldrazi deck. This will be the last injection of cards for the deck for years most likely, and while good it's not exactly taking over the format. Not sure that will stop WotC though, which is the problem.

 

[WanderingWind]

Well, good to know you'll dismiss opinions as just "feelings" when you disagree with them.

No, I dismiss "this is a problem" being repeated ad naseum as feelings, because that is factually what that is. Show me with stats how it's a problem. Don't continue to use "this is a problem" and "it was too good." These are feelings. Not facts. Again, you're telling. Not showing.

Show me how it overran the field. Show me an inordinate amount of wins across the entire kept playfield. Show me how those two cards - not even in the top ten most played cards in the format (discounting lands, obv) - are more damaging than the ones that are above it.

Give me any facts and I'll consider them. Give me feelings and I'll treat them as such. They're not invalid, they just don't carry the sort of weight in persuading others that those who have them believe.

I like how you blame this on feel bads instead of data though, that's really cute.

And that data is...?

 

[kirblar]

I'll be honest, I just don't believe that any more. What's stopping them from deciding that fetchlands add to much consistency and time shuffling, or that snapcaster mage is in too many blue decks. This seems to be confirmation of the joke that bannings is modern's way of rewarding a deck that's good.

Also, think you seriously overrate the Eldrazi deck. This will be the last injection of cards for the deck for years most likely, and while good it's not exactly taking over the format. Not sure that will stop WotC though, which is the problem.

The problem is the Eldrazi deck's nutdraws are now patently absurd (and they universally involve Temple.

Fetchlands, Mage don't have the same sort of issues. They're utility cards that don't hurt the format. People asking "Ban Bolt" are absolutely ridiculous. People who want fetchlands banned are those who have had muscles atrophy and carpal tunnel develop from playing too much MTGO.

And that data is...?

Grixis control/tempo became Grixis Twin.
Temur Tempo became Temur Twin.
Traditional U/x control decks disappeared from the metagame because there was no good reason to play them over URx tempo decks with access to the combo.

Just as Pod merged with Abzan into a single deck, Tempo and Twin had merged, and that sort of format coalesce is very, very bad. (Twin and CawBlade merged back in Standard right before the bannings.)

If you can't see that this is really unhealthy, no one will ever be able to convince you of this.

edit: I have to reiterate this- GET YOUR BOOM BUSTS NOW.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Ban fetches so they get cheap for kitchen table.

 

[WanderingWind]

Again, that is not data. It's not even accurate. Grixis Control remains quite solidly its own deck, placing in top 8 across the play field. Temur broke apart when TC was banned.

 

[kirblar]

Again, that is not data. It's not even accurate. Grixis Control remains quite solidly its own deck, placing in top 8 across the play field. Temur broke apart when TC was banned.

But the problem is that you can just do this : http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11157&d=263459&f=MO

Twin is no longer a distinct archetype. It's a package you slot in and out of other decks.

 

[blindrocket]

Turned it around this week to win FNM with a 4-0 with Modern Abzan yeeha

Deck list please.

 

[blackflag]

I think I'll try blue moon maybe once mtgo is updated. Maybe time to play more shadow of doubt in grixis. It's good against tron, chord, scapeshift, eldrazi and at worst you draw a card if it's dead to something. I usually play 1 in sb anyway.

 

[blindrocket]

I had Pod built when it got banned. And I had Twin built, too.

Modern ban lists always get my underwear in a knot. It makes me just want to stick to EDH, lol.

 

[Magic Pancake]

But the problem is that you can just do this : http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11157&d=263459&f=MO

Twin is no longer a distinct archetype. It's a package you slot in and out of other decks.

Their is a real cost to slot in the twin combo, and as WanderingWind said, it was just a few weeks ago that Grixis control won an SCG open.

 

[kirblar]

4 Arid Mesa
2 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
2 Verdant Catacombs

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

3 Blood Moon
4 Boom // Bust
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
3 Temporal Isolation

SB
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Damping Matrix
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Lightning Helix
2 Path to Exile
1 Ranger of Eos
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Volcanic Fallout

Obvious changes- -4 BBE, +3 GDD (I'm not sure on 4.)

-3 Temporal Isolation - but what to play? You don't want path. Maybe Dromoka's Command?

 

[y2dvd]

I'd be fine banning fetches for a season. I'm sure I already stated that long ago. Hate all the damn shuffling due to it. Plus it would shake up decks immensely. I wouldn't mind seeing a huge shake up. You can always bring it back next season. It would sorta be like patching the game. Of course the biggest gripe would be players shelling out for fetches and it's one of the unfortunate drawbacks to tcg games. It prohibits major changes and experimentation due to the secondary market.

 

[ElyrionX]

The reason is not "winning too much" per se, but more than it was swallowing up other blue decks. It's become too easy and frequent that some blue tempo deck will just add twin to it to add percentage points. I believe an entire archetype of decks was swallowed up into the U/R/x Twin super-archetype.

I'm not sure about some of the other examples but the Wizards article citing Shaun Mclaren BNG PT win is a really bad example to pick. That Jeskai Control deck he piloted to win was not a great deck. He made T8 only because of his draft results. His constructed results placed him only in the top 20s in the field.

 

[Ashodin]

The salt over twin is glorious. Glorious!