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Magic: the Gathering |OT10| Aether Revolt - That shit that make your Soul Burn slow

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No.

It's not good for a 6 mana Planeswalker independent of the format.

Eh, if a GW(x) control deck suddenly became magically viable with the release of Amohkhet then he'd perhaps fit as a 1-2 of in said deck since his first two abilities are legit amazing for grinding out value. That said, I very highly doubt that will happen and we'll be left with a planeswalker card with two fantastic abilities that don't do nearly enough for being on 6 cmc planeswalker, at least not in anything remotely resembling the meta of the last while.
 

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
The reason they don't attract women to the game has nothing to do with the characters.

It has to do with the sweaty nerds who constantly get salty.

Well, sure—but, the creative team still needs to make an effort to be inclusive towards women who want to play the game.
 
I mean, Big Ajani could be great if Super Friends ever becomes a thing in Standard.

Something like "Turn 3 Oath of Gideon, Turn 4 Tamiyo +1, Turn 5 Big Nissa Ult, Tamiyo+1, Turn 6 Big Ajani, Tamiyo Ult, +2 Ajani?"

I know this is pure Christmas Land.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Eh, if a GW(x) control deck suddenly became magically viable with the release of Amohkhet then he'd perhaps fit as a 1-2 of in said deck since his first two abilities are legit amazing for grinding out value. That said, I very highly doubt that will happen and we'll be left with a planeswalker card with two fantastic abilities that don't do nearly enough for being on 6 cmc planeswalker, at least not in anything remotely resembling the meta of the last while.

A Planeswalker that protects itself against exactly 1 threat isn't good enough at 6 mana. The closest comparison is Sorin, Grim Nemesis, which is in a better color set for that set of abilities and is just better. Sorin starts at higher loyalty, actively wins the game himself, and can target opposing Planeswalkers, and gains YOU life (which can stabilize), not your opponent.

The only thing Ajani Unyielding does better is exile creatures, which isn't nearly as relevant as it sounds at 6 mana and in a format where there aren't really that many creatures being played that you need an exile trigger for. Sorin, GN isn't even a good 6 mana planeswalker himself. The only 2 I can think of that are actively good are Flamecaller and Sun's Champion, with Sun's Champion being dramatically better than all of them.
 

kirblar

Member
With the game's struggles to attract women, there's no way they're killing off a female Planeswalker who they've spent several years retconning into a new personality. (Especially with no Green Planeswalker waiting to fill the void—assuming Garruk is G/B now, and not really Gatewatch material.)
Is the game struggling to attract women? Or is it just competitive play that's struggling to attract women?

Based on everything I/we know, I think it's the latter.
 

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
Is the game struggling to attract women? Or is it just competitive play that's struggling to attract women?

Based on everything I/we know, I think it's the latter.

A little old (2012), but Rosewater stated that the gender/sex balance of Planeswalkers directly correlates with the gender/sex demographics of the players:

maastrictian asked: Re: your latest answer about female planeswalkers. There are twice as many male than female planeswalkers, whether counted by cards or characters. It would be awesome if that were 50/50 in future sets!

You are correct that my ”not far apart" line was wrong. I went and counted and male planeswalkers outnumber female planeswalkers 2:1. Here's why that's so. Planeswalkers are designed as player analogues. We want to create characters for our players to want to emulate.

Right now, the game is predominantly played by men. Obviously, we'd like to see that change and I feel it is slowly changing. If our goal is to create characters to emulate and the majority of our players are currently male, that means we need to make more male planeswalkers right now.

Note that we do make a bunch of female ones because it's important to have planeswalkers for females to emulate and we want to create a world where there are male and female planeswalkers, but the skew comes out of the current natural gender skew in the game.


If the game ever got to a 50/50 male/female mix we'd have a 50/50 mix of male and female planeswalkers. Note our current mix is more skewed towards women than our current player ratios.

More recently, Rosewater has said that their market research pegs the game's audience at 62% male/38% female (with non-binary, etc. not account for, unfortunately). This still seems low considering adult women are the predominant demographic in the video game market.

Even if the percentage of women playing MTG has risen between 2012 and 2015 (when Rosewater released those demographic numbers, it still indicates a direct correlation between women discovering/playing the game and the number of female Planeswalkers available. The LGS culture is one hurdle to overcome, but WotC's creative team has to continue to create a game that is open and welcome for women who are interested in playing (casually or competitively), and they're not going to do that by killing off popular female Planeswalkers. (Especially since the last Planeswalker who 'died' was Elspeth.) They're already doing a poor job of integrating the new female Planeswalkers (Arlinn and Saheeli) into the game's overarching narrative. Killing Nissa without replacing her in the Gatewatch (the game's main cast), would reflect a reduced interest in attracting and maintaining female players.
 
Is the game struggling to attract women? Or is it just competitive play that's struggling to attract women?

Based on everything I/we know, I think it's the latter.

Well, more specifically, it used to be the former and then efforts on the marketing and creative side shifted it much more to the latter. We know the demo split on overall customers has gotten more even over the last decade.
 
A Planeswalker that protects itself against exactly 1 threat isn't good enough at 6 mana. The closest comparison is Sorin, Grim Nemesis, which is in a better color set for that set of abilities and is just better. Sorin starts at higher loyalty, actively wins the game himself, and can target opposing Planeswalkers, and gains YOU life (which can stabilize), not your opponent.

The only thing Ajani Unyielding does better is exile creatures, which isn't nearly as relevant as it sounds at 6 mana and in a format where there aren't really that many creatures being played that you need an exile trigger for. Sorin, GN isn't even a good 6 mana planeswalker himself. The only 2 I can think of that are actively good are Flamecaller and Sun's Champion, with Sun's Champion being dramatically better than all of them.

Look, I'm not calling Ajani himself amazing. He's certainly not even close to Sun's Champion. That said, the "does/doesn't protect itself/doesn't protect itself against multiple threats" thing, while not invalid, is really overdone and falls into the same trap R&D seems to have where the only "real" and "fun" Magic is aggro to midrange with minimal answers where spending your turn on a 6 drop means eating 4+ face damage from attackers. In a Standard meta where Ajani would sit around and do his thing for 2+ turns he very much will win games given his +2 is one of the, if not the actual, best repeatable card advantage abilities ever on a planeswalker.

Yes, Ajani is entirely unplayable in anything resembling current Standard because you activate him once and then he (or you) get plastered by vehicles or 8 billion Cat Beast tokens or, less often, a bunch of creatures with at least four +1/+1 counters on them. Control and/or more durdly decks just don't exist and those are the only decks Ajani can remotely function in. And yes, given the direction Standard has been going recently it's hard to see this changing before he rotates out of the format. As my original comment said, there's a meta where he could potential put in real work but we sure as hell aren't in the same universe as that meta right now.
 

Wulfric

Member
Whew, finally completed my decklists for the GP on Friday. Hopefully I can win a couple boxes and trade them in for some foil Sanctum Prelates.

Here are the decks:
Death and Taxes (Craig Wescoe's Louisville list)
Boros Burn (TCGPlayer state winner)

On topic: Can Tamiyo weasel her way into the Gatewatch? She's popular and the Gatewatch could use a multicolor walker besides Ajani.

Also I have no idea why anyone would want to kill off Nissa. WotC has invested too much money into these characters to get rid of them permanently. I see Sarkhan or Karn being killed off before any of the Lorwyn 5.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Look, I'm not calling Ajani himself amazing. He's certainly not even close to Sun's Champion. That said, the "does/doesn't protect itself/doesn't protect itself against multiple threats" thing, while not invalid, is really overdone and falls into the same trap R&D seems to have where the only "real" and "fun" Magic is aggro to midrange with minimal answers where spending your turn on a 6 drop means eating 4+ face damage from attackers. In a Standard meta where Ajani would sit around and do his thing for 2+ turns he very much will win games given his +2 is one of the, if not the actual, best repeatable card advantage abilities ever on a planeswalker.

Yes, Ajani is entirely unplayable in anything resembling current Standard because you activate him once and then he (or you) get plastered by vehicles or 8 billion Cat Beast tokens or, less often, a bunch of creatures with at least four +1/+1 counters on them. Control and/or more durdly decks just don't exist and those are the only decks Ajani can remotely function in. And yes, given the direction Standard has been going recently it's hard to see this changing before he rotates out of the format. As my original comment said, there's a meta where he could potential put in real work but we sure as hell aren't in the same universe as that meta right now.

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. I don't think Ajani is good in any Standard meta because the card isn't good. It's too expensive for what it does.
 

Poppy

Member
if bolas doesnt wipe the floor with them at least a little bit then whats even the point of the gatewatch anymore? they already defeated the biggest plane ending threats, if they defeat bolas without problems too then how can you even escalate the story any further? like, i guess you would just make a super eldrazi multiverse ending threat 30/30 with a billion abilities merged from all the other ones and call it a day or something? sounds super boring

so in other words i hope jace dies
 
I think they could bring Urza back as a villain.

I feel like he would be an incredible foil to the Gatewatch. He wouldn't even have to be evil or selfish, he could just have conflicting goals to them.
 

OnPoint

Member
I think they could bring Urza back as a villain.

I feel like he would be an incredible foil to the Gatewatch. He wouldn't even have to be evil or selfish, he could just have conflicting goals to them.

Wondering if this is the path they're taking with Ugin myself.

He didn't really have one, he just asserted he was 5 colors which is an easy conclusion to draw when you realize he doesn't fit smoothly in any wedge or shard and don't look too closely past that.

Didn't he recently say his work with eugenics was very Simic minded?
 

Santiako

Member
I think they could bring Urza back as a villain.

I feel like he would be an incredible foil to the Gatewatch. He wouldn't even have to be evil or selfish, he could just have conflicting goals to them.

I still think Raven Man is Urza somehow. He looks way too much like him to be a coincidence.
 

Ashodin

Member
I think they could bring Urza back as a villain.

I feel like he would be an incredible foil to the Gatewatch. He wouldn't even have to be evil or selfish, he could just have conflicting goals to them.

Who says it isn't the Raven Man?

cardart_vtntRQapZQ.jpg


I still argue it's Time Spiral-shifted Urza.

ayy santiako
 

OnPoint

Member
I thought that was someone in here. Whoever said it is incorrect. :p

While I agree that it's wrong:

rising-tiger asked: I thought Urza was UWR, the black part I can understand, but green? #goBGUrzatron

Maro replied: Look into the biological portion of his Weatherlight Saga plan - very Simic.


Source: http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/158318222308/i-thought-urza-was-uwr-the-black-part-i-can

Definitely Rosewater, though maybe someone else in here said it too.
 

kirblar

Member
The reason they don't attract women to the game has nothing to do with the characters.

It has to do with the sweaty nerds who constantly get salty.
Every game has issues attracting women to competitive play. I strongly suspect (especially given studies like this one) that the primary margin isn't people being turned off of it, but that for men, competitive play is like crack to them in a way it isn't for women.

This isn't to say we shouldn't be making competitive play as open/welcoming/non-hostile as possible (we absolutely should be), just that we shouldn't be expecting major results in gender ratios as a result.
 

Ashodin

Member
I can attest that my wife absolutely HATES competitive play. She considers video games to be a relaxing experience, not one to be had in competitive forays.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. I don't think Ajani is good in any Standard meta because the card isn't good. It's too expensive for what it does.

You're right, he's not a "good" card. I'm not trying to say that. But at the same time his +2 is powerful enough that I'm pretty sure he'd be playable (and potentially desired) in the right deck in the right meta. I don't know if that theoretical deck and meta will ever exist but they certainly could. It would be far from the most durdly nonsense (or worst) card I'd have ever seen play a solid role in a competitive Standard deck.
 
Every game has issues attracting women to competitive play. I strongly suspect (especially given studies like this one) that the primary margin isn't people being turned off of it, but that for men, competitive play is like crack to them in a way it isn't for women.

This isn't to say we shouldn't be making competitive play as open/welcoming/non-hostile as possible (we absolutely should be), just that we shouldn't be expecting major results in gender ratios as a result.

I'm a sample size of 1 but I can say that I tend to prefer things be cooperative but I can also enjoy competitive play. That said, what I get out out of competitive play is being able to interact with others and to, so to speak, "do the best I can" so I generally care less about winning or losing than I do about feeling I did what I feel I was capable of doing/doing things that are interesting.

Edit: Whoops, I meant to edit above instead of double posting. x_x
 
Ah. Well then he's the one who is wrong. Simic isn't a good model for the Bloodlines project at all.
Simic is more "I'm going to breed a Sharkman because it's sweet", not "I'm going to deliberately and carefully plot out the perfect Lineage for my master weapon".

Simic is the people who would make a Xenomorph and then go "I did it for SCIENCE".
 
Simic is more "I'm going to breed a Sharkman because it's sweet", not "I'm going to deliberately and carefully plot out the perfect Lineage for my master weapon".

Simic is the people who would make a Xenomorph and then go "I did it for SCIENCE".

Right. Bloodlines was blue as heck with maybe a dash of white and black.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You're right, he's not a "good" card. I'm not trying to say that. But at the same time his +2 is powerful enough that I'm pretty sure he'd be playable (and potentially desired) in the right deck in the right meta. I don't know if that theoretical deck and meta will ever exist but they certainly could. It would be far from the most durdly nonsense (or worst) card I'd have ever seen play a solid role in a competitive Standard deck.

The problem is that this argument probably applies to every non-Tibalt planeswalker. Tamiyo, for example, is actually really powerful, but doesn't see play because its not a good format for a card like that (or is it?)
 

bigkrev

Member
I just noticed that Oath of Ajani is under 40 cents right now. Might buy $5 worth of them for a longer term spec, because if they never go up I can just bulk them and recoup 25% of the investment
 

bigkrev

Member
The thing is, if they ever print an Urza Planeswalker, it's going to be in a Commander product, like they used to print Teferi, Freyalise, ect. My guess is it will be a Young (Urza's Saga era) Urza, so they can make him either Mono-Blue, Blue-White, or Esper. They aren't going to be printing a peak-of-his-power Urza, as that would probably need to be 4 or 5 colors, and it would be really hard to make a 5 card cycle of.

The fact that they didn't do a Jaya Ballard planeswalker card for Commander (they did Daretti instead) tells me they plan on revisiting the idea
 

Karakand

Member
Every game has issues attracting women to competitive play. I strongly suspect (especially given studies like this one) that the primary margin isn't people being turned off of it, but that for men, competitive play is like crack to them in a way it isn't for women.

The Paper said:
Another possibility to explain the difference in responses to competition is provided by the framework of the self-determination theory [23], and the findings that positive and negative affect has a somewhat direct association with intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, respectively (in the context of sports, see [78]; for digital games, see [79]). It might be that—instead of e.g., higher reward-seeking behavior in males—the mechanism for both competitive preferences and consequent positive affect stems from the cultural gender expectations that perpetuate the higher male need for competence (e.g., [80]) and the needs satisfaction fulfilled by competition. For example, Gneezy, Leonard, and List [81] report how a matrilineal society in India with different gender roles shows the pattern of higher female preference for competition, and this would be also in line with the findings that masculine gender roles are associated with increasing intrinsic motivation in competition [25].

BzoGu.gif
 

jph139

Member
I mean, I think, if they were to print a "super mega Urza Planeswalker card" at any point in the near future, he'd end up being five color. A card/character being all five colors is always a way to say "this dude is way beyond any other dude" and Urza has always been sort of the ur-Planeswalker in Magic lore. Five color just "clicks" better with people than four color in that way.

Like, can you imagine if they announced Return to Dominaria alongside "Urza, the Infinite," the first five-color Planeswalker card? That sort of thing would blow up so hard.
 

OnPoint

Member
I mean, I think, if they were to print a "super mega Urza Planeswalker card" at any point in the near future, he'd end up being five color. A card/character being all five colors is always a way to say "this dude is way beyond any other dude" and Urza has always been sort of the ur-Planeswalker in Magic lore. Five color just "clicks" better with people than four color in that way.

Like, can you imagine if they announced Return to Dominaria alongside "Urza, the Infinite," the first five-color Planeswalker card? That sort of thing would blow up so hard.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying.

I just don't think the character actually had green in how he was written is all.
 
I mean, I think, if they were to print a "super mega Urza Planeswalker card" at any point in the near future, he'd end up being five color. A card/character being all five colors is always a way to say "this dude is way beyond any other dude" and Urza has always been sort of the ur-Planeswalker in Magic lore. Five color just "clicks" better with people than four color in that way.

Like, can you imagine if they announced Return to Dominaria alongside "Urza, the Infinite," the first five-color Planeswalker card? That sort of thing would blow up so hard.

Bolas is the ur PW tho
 
I mean, I think, if they were to print a "super mega Urza Planeswalker card" at any point in the near future, he'd end up being five color. A card/character being all five colors is always a way to say "this dude is way beyond any other dude" and Urza has always been sort of the ur-Planeswalker in Magic lore. Five color just "clicks" better with people than four color in that way.

Like, can you imagine if they announced Return to Dominaria alongside "Urza, the Infinite," the first five-color Planeswalker card? That sort of thing would blow up so hard.

If he isn't named Urza Planeswalker they're doing it wrong.

I'd love to hear what story reason they gin up to make him come back tho.
 
The thing is, if they ever print an Urza Planeswalker, it's going to be in a Commander product, like they used to print Teferi, Freyalise, ect. My guess is it will be a Young (Urza's Saga era) Urza, so they can make him either Mono-Blue, Blue-White, or Esper. They aren't going to be printing a peak-of-his-power Urza, as that would probably need to be 4 or 5 colors, and it would be really hard to make a 5 card cycle of.

If they do a legendary card of Urza the Young he'd have to be Esper so he could mirror Mishra properly. If you're really going for accuracy you could do an Esper legend that flips into a Breya planeswalker so you can include Urza's Rage.

In terms of cycles, they've hinted pretty strongly that once they go through all the obvious cycle-able color groupings they want to switch it up and do them in more thematic groupings -- like, five decks from different planes, or five decks representing five different storylines whose characters haven't been printed, or five different mechanical themes with non-cycled color profiles, or so on. Once they get into this territory I think someone like Urza becomes a lot more viable to print.
 
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