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Magic: the Gathering |OT10| Aether Revolt - That shit that make your Soul Burn slow

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Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
At this point Wizards' obsession with Temur Tower and ludicrously pretending its a pillar of the format in every article is just kind of sad and pathetic.

I have to imagine its Vince McMahon shit, like someone writes an article and they get a command from on high to make sure everyone they go back and re-do the article to position Temur Tower as just as good as Cat Combo and Vehicles.
 

Santiako

Member
At this point Wizards' obsession with Temur Tower and ludicrously pretending its a pillar of the format in every article is just kind of sad and pathetic.

This totally represents the meta

Looking at Standard, I saw this triangle:

HB20170328_Meta.png


There are many other decks outside that triangle waiting to get in. Many of these decks are great and very, very close to being inside.


lol
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
yagi-h asked: Have we already seen the reason for the lack of graveyard interactions in Standard (Amonkhet having graveyard mechanics, like Embalm), or shall we still wait?

Amonkhet has a strong graveyard component. We always try to be careful not to undercut an upcoming block's themes. It's why Shadows over Innistrad block didn't strongly hose artifacts as it was followed by Kaladesh.
So the actual answer behind Maro's "method to our madness" shit that he went all ashamed of your words and deeds over was "we wanted graveyard stuff to be good." Seriously, fuck off with that.
 

OnPoint

Member
I have a Playset of Khans Fetches, a Playset of MM17 Misty, 1 Verdant, and i'm planning on picking up a set of Arid Mesa or Scalding Tarn, depending on how the prices move.

Should allow me to play any Modern deck I'd want to.

I'm going to have to start one by oneing them every paycheck. I have my set of Marsh Flats, but only 2 Verdant Catacombs, 1 Misty, 1 Tarn, 1 Mesa. I got some work to do.
 
So the actual answer behind Maro's "method to our madness" shit that he went all ashamed of your words and deeds over was "we wanted graveyard stuff to be good." Seriously, fuck off with that.

Yes, this is what I expected given what was revealed yesterday (I had started a post on it but decided to scrap it). I'm going to be blunt here: I think the move to try and remove any "unfun" gameplay in Standard has been a huge mistake. Yes, they say they realize they need to print better answers but even still it seems they're afraid of real interactivity unless it involves creatures smashing into each other or some basic creature removal.

You know what isn't fun? When there are all sorts of gameplay mechanics I can't stop or interact with even from my sideboard. And it's funny how so many of the "great Standards" of the past had no issues with hate or dynamic options.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Their big problem is that they're deathly afraid of anything that doesn't let a player execute their gameplan outside of straight 1-for-1 removal or "opponent plays a bigger guy than you."
 

OnPoint

Member
They're just highlighting how tonedeaf they truly are with releases like these. People want answers. I don't mean to questions -- I mean to strategies. Magic has historically been a game about one player getting their gameplan off before the other, sure, but it also historically has afforded opponents answers to those gameplans.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
But it FEELS bad if you put together a Snapcaster deck and your opponent played Dryad Miliant
 

Yeef

Member
There's space, with Aftermath, to make more powerful removal, since you get to use it twice. They also tweaked Amonkhet after they moved back to the once-a-year rotation, so hopefully they put something in that shuts Gideon down.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
There's space, with Aftermath, to make more powerful removal, since you get to use it twice. They also tweaked Amonkhet after they moved back to the once-a-year rotation, so hopefully they put something in that shuts Gideon down.

Hopefully that thing is called the Banned List.
 

Yeef

Member
I've always wanted to see a Thunderbolt variant that hits creatures and planeswalkers.

Strike Down 1R
Instant
Choose one:
- ~ deals 3 damage to target creature.
- ~ deals 4 damage to target planeswalker.
 
At this point Wizards' obsession with Temur Tower and ludicrously pretending its a pillar of the format in every article is just kind of sad and pathetic.

Today's article is by Quinn Murphy, he's not a WotC employee and he's writing from the perspective of trying to brew into a seemingly solved format, don't lump him in with the actual R&D people trying to put on a brave face.

For the people who are on staff, they have every incentive even without their bosses explicitly ordering them to present the rosy picture. If it turns out Standard is needs bans, they can mea culpa later on; if it turns out it doesn't then they really don't want to have suggested it did and then "go back" on that.

I'm going to be blunt here: I think the move to try and remove any "unfun" gameplay in Standard has been a huge mistake.

I don't think the concept is bad, I think their model of what's unfun is bad. This concept originated 15 years ago or whatever with the realization that absolute lockdown and denial strategies (ponza, mono-discard, draw-go control, prison, etc.) are miserable, but the specific reason for that isn't purely that they "don't let you play the game" -- it's that by specifically stopping you from resolving anything, they limit what forms of interplay are possible, thereby reducing the strategic options to oppose them and pushing sideboard cards into a really narrow mold.

The problem is when they apply the same philosophy to partial lockdown strategies (tempo-control, incidental mana denial, board control, etc.) These types of decks all have multiple points of interaction and a wide range of potential counter-strategies, which makes them positive contributors to a metagame. These are the kinds of decks that better graveyard hate, PW hate, spot removal, etc. will enable and what's missing from current metagames.

They're just highlighting how tonedeaf they truly are with releases like these. People want answers. I don't mean to questions -- I mean to strategies.

They really need to get someone eloquent and outgoing to talk development the way Mark does design -- Forsythe used to do this before he was the boss, and no one's really filled the void since. Rosewater's always going to sound tone-deaf on this stuff because he is tone-deaf, he doesn't and never will know competitive well enough to give smart answers about it and it's not actually his job to.

I think 5cc board wipes are fine. A format full of Chimeric Idols and Gideon is not.

Putting it this way makes me realize how much of the specific problem we have is that Standard is chock full of cards that are mostly one of three other permanent types (land, artifact, planeswalker) that only become a creature when it's time for combat. In general this is a good mechanic because it diversifies what kind of cards people use for creatures and enables decks that are less all-in on creatures, but the combination of volume (there's tons of these effects, way more than usual), quality (the best cards in these categories are consistently too good), and lack of targeted answers makes it oppressive here.

I'm wondering now if you can design a removal regimen that actually addresses this, and the similar issues that artifacts and PWs regularly have on competitive formats. Maybe part of the answer is just leaning in much harder on multi-type removal so it's easier for people to justify running it -- stuff like Naturalize, Hero's Downfall, etc. has been really helpful in previous environments in letting people deal with threats from multiple different types of decks.
 

A_Dang

Member
I traded my single copy of Gideon a week or so ago to a friend that is building a super friends commander deck. I felt a little bad handing over a brick that will either drop from a banning (super unlikely in my mind) or rotation...

When trading among friends (or in general) do you assume the other party is knowledgeable about that sort of thing, or do you not worry about it?
 
I don't think the concept is bad, I think their model of what's unfun is bad. This concept originated 15 years ago or whatever with the realization that absolute lockdown and denial strategies (ponza, mono-discard, draw-go control, prison, etc.) are miserable, but the specific reason for that isn't purely that they "don't let you play the game" -- it's that by specifically stopping you from resolving anything, they limit what forms of interplay are possible, thereby reducing the strategic options to oppose them and pushing sideboard cards into a really narrow mold.

The problem is when they apply the same philosophy to partial lockdown strategies (tempo-control, incidental mana denial, board control, etc.) These types of decks all have multiple points of interaction and a wide range of potential counter-strategies, which makes them positive contributors to a metagame. These are the kinds of decks that better graveyard hate, PW hate, spot removal, etc. will enable and what's missing from current metagames.

Oh, I agree. I was kind of assuming in my statement that it was more "these don't exist at all" rather than "Standard should look a lot like a Vintage Shops deck".
 

Santiako

Member
I traded my single copy of Gideon a week or so ago to a friend that is building a super friends commander deck. I felt a little bad handing over a brick that will either drop from a banning (super unlikely in my mind) or rotation...

When trading among friends (or in general) do you assume the other party is knowledgeable about that sort of thing, or do you not worry about it?

He's not rotating for six months and I doubt he's getting banned. He sees some play in other formats, so he'll keep a decent price after October (probably between 10 and 15 bucks).
 

A_Dang

Member
He's not rotating for six months and I doubt he's getting banned. He sees some play in other formats, so he'll keep a decent price after October (probably between 10 and 15 bucks).

Right, the bottom on Gideon to me is that $10 range in my mind, but I still used the trade to get more "stable" cards (Polluted Delta and Expedition Map), where as he is going to just sink Gideon into a commander deck that he may or may not ever play.

I don't know, I'm guessing I overthink trading.
 

OnPoint

Member
Right, the bottom on Gideon to me is that $10 range in my mind, but I still used the trade to get more "stable" cards (Polluted Delta and Expedition Map), where as he is going to just sink Gideon into a commander deck that he may or may not ever play.

I don't know, I'm guessing I overthink trading.

Nah you made the right move. Gideon isn't going up much further unless something breaks HARD and he's 100% needed as a 4 of. It's going to be a slow but steady downswing down from here, I think.
 

Joe Molotov

Member
I've always wanted to see a Thunderbolt variant that hits creatures and planeswalkers.

Strike Down 1R
Instant
Choose one:
- ~ deals 3 damage to target creature.
- ~ deals 4 damage to target planeswalker.

Instead we got a 3cmc sorcery that also returns a land to your hand, lmao.
 

A_Dang

Member
Nah you made the right move. Gideon isn't going up much further unless something breaks HARD and he's 100% needed as a 4 of. It's going to be a slow but steady downswing down from here, I think.

I know that I came out "on top" in the trade, but that makes me feel like I shorted my friend a bit because I did the trade knowing Gideon will drop and that Polluted Delta likely will not.
 

noquarter

Member
Right, the bottom on Gideon to me is that $10 range in my mind, but I still used the trade to get more "stable" cards (Polluted Delta and Expedition Map), where as he is going to just sink Gideon into a commander deck that he may or may not ever play.

I don't know, I'm guessing I overthink trading.
Is he new to Magic? If I introduced someone to Magic I would let him know that the value will probably go down and that he could trade me when it does if I don't trade it before that.

If he had been playing, well he should have an idea about trade values and that Standard had a pretty big impact on price usually.

Just asking since you said it was trading with a friend and your question makes you seem remorseful that you traded standard hotness for eternal stability. At the card shop I always assume they know unless they have mentioned being new and don't have much of an idea about trading.
 

Tunoku

Member
I'd be fine with a Lightning Strike that hit creatures and Planeswalkers, doesn't have to be 4 for walkers. I mean, ideally it'd be 4 for creatures or walkers, but we all know that's never gonna happen.
 

OnPoint

Member
He's not new to magic, but is from the "kitchen table"/Commander side of the game, and does not really keep up on the more competitive world of MTG.
As a kitchen table guy he probably won't be concerned with high level value stuff like that. You're good.
 
When trading among friends (or in general) do you assume the other party is knowledgeable about that sort of thing, or do you not worry about it?

Your moral responsibility is to be honest about current prevailing trends (i.e. what it would actually cost you to buy a copy of the card today rather than trading for it) but not to actively look out for them on future uncertainty.
 

A_Dang

Member
Were you super pushy and aggressive on this trade? If not, then it's fine.

Well, now that you mention it...I did shout him into a corner where he crumpled to his knees weeping...

In general I try to be as generous and forthcoming with trades among friends, where as when trading with a random person at FNM I am not nearly as concerned.
 

y2dvd

Member
I've always wanted to see a Thunderbolt variant that hits creatures and planeswalkers.

Strike Down 1R
Instant
Choose one:
- ~ deals 3 damage to target creature.
- ~ deals 4 damage to target planeswalker.

I've made this suggestions to others before and think it would be perfect. I'd take this at 3cmc even.
 
I feel like Wizards got spooked when Burn was a Tier 1 standard deck a couple years ago. I think that's the wrong takeaway from that though; the Burn deck wasn't just jamming Lava Spikes - it actually took a lot of practice to play that deck right.
 

OnPoint

Member
Awesome thanks guys.

Hopefully we see some fun stuff!

Given the one of the definitions of "Invocation", I'm expecting it will be a line of creatures. But we'll know soon!
 

OnPoint

Member
Ha, Invocations gives me the opposite vibe, noncreature spells.

But the word, depending on which definition you pick, literally means to summon someone or something.

in·vo·ca·tion
ˌinvəˈkāSH(ə)n/
noun
the action of invoking something or someone for assistance or as an authority.
"the invocation of new disciplines and methodologies"
the summoning of a deity or the supernatural.
"his invocation of the ancient mystical powers"

So we'll see haha
 
At this point Wizards' obsession with Temur Tower and ludicrously pretending its a pillar of the format in every article is just kind of sad and pathetic.

I have to imagine its Vince McMahon shit, like someone writes an article and they get a command from on high to make sure everyone they go back and re-do the article to position Temur Tower as just as good as Cat Combo and Vehicles.
Because when I think of Standard, I think of the deck that hasn't dominated the metagame at all.
 
I don't know how they'd do it, but maybe it's instants and/or sorceries and the new gods are included because they're spell gods somehow. Creatures that become spells (yes, this is wrong but it's easiest than instant/sorcery) in the graveyard or spells that can become creatures from the graveyard or some nonsense.
 

kirblar

Member
I feel like Wizards got spooked when Burn was a Tier 1 standard deck a couple years ago. I think that's the wrong takeaway from that though; the Burn deck wasn't just jamming Lava Spikes - it actually took a lot of practice to play that deck right.
Mono-Red being T1 at like every standard PT for 2-3 years straight was really obnoxious, especially given how good it is in Modern.
 
You could do spells that become creatures if you meet certain conditions.

Oketra 4WWW

Sorcery Creature - God

Oketra isn't a creature as you cast it.

Destroy all creatures. If 5 or more creatures got destroyed this way Oketra enters the battlefield as a creature.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control destroy it unless its controller exiles a creature from his or her Graveyard.

7/5


Not sure if this works rules wise.
 
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