goldlion054
Member
For sure. But getting it in play is the problem, yeah?
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Magic: the Gathering |OT11| Amonkhet - Have you ever had decks with a Pharaoh?
- Thread starter SigmasonicX
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For sure. But getting it in play is the problem, yeah?
Void winnower wins every matchup except Mardu Vehicles on the spot. (They can disintegrate it) The whole inspiration for this list was seeing Reid reanimate Ulamog and then realizing after looking through other lists that all the threats are on even. Both chandras, marvel, ulamog, gearhulk, gideon, the lightnings they use to remove your threats, glimmer- everything that matters is shut down by winnower. It's considerably more powerful to reanimate unless you're facing mardu. (or bw zombies as they might be able to unmake it I guess; never played against them, though) I won at least 4 games that way? (and 3 of them they literally just conceded as soon as the reanimate went on the stack)
As far as getting it in play goes, it's usually only as difficult as resolving a Liliana. Nobody runs grave exile and discarding the winnower happens as part of a cost, so they can't stop it. You will be able to rummage it before the relevant turn too.
Some notes I just wrote on the list on Salv:
I would say the deck is favored against every matchup except UR control, where they have countermagic for your pws and can punish the rummage spells. To that end, I've added more painful truths to the side to replace some of your rummages, so counters aren't backbreaking and they actually need to counter the spells more as you draw more off them. Sin prodders are brought in as well as an additional threat that can dump dudes in the yard in place of the rummage spells. They also abuse the new split card rules which, ironically enough, were created to prevent other abuses. A sin prodder will flip never to return for 7 damage, for example, even though the spell you care about casting is 3 mana. The mardu vehicles matchup is pretty close too, since you have to line up specific answers. The deck has them, but you need to have them in quick order to deal with their pressure.
Some other notes:
-GDD is excellent here. I upped the count from 1 to 2, then 2 to 3 in testing. 4 might even be appropriate. He synergizes so well with all the discarding, reanimating, and, specifically sweltering suns, which he can use to keep the board clear while living himself. (This is even better because he has menace- a GDD flashing back suns can just snipe a Gideon out of nowhere)
-The maindeck dispossess is a nice weapon against marvel that also hits UR control and mardu with a bit less impact. The deck has so much rummaging that getting to a special tech piece or discarding it if you draw it and don't need it isn't an issue at all. Similar logic to heaven to earth here.
-The playstyle is that you generally function as a Mardu control deck for the first few turns, removing your opponents creatures and using your rummage spells to make your land drops, find your pws, and get critters in the yard. If you can turn 5 a void winnower, you will end most matchups outside Mardu on the spot. (Look at the marvel lists- Whirler Virtuoso is literally their only maindeck path to victory once winnower hits the board)
-The deck is exceptional at dealing with non creature permanents and especially at exiling permanents, with the single anguished unmaking, cast outs, dec in stone, and nahiris. This is by design, as it gives the deck the ability to kill a resolved marvel after one spin as well as the ability to deal with ulamogs. You're also less exposed to random problematic non creature permanents game 1.
-Ulting Nahiri is great in this deck. One opponent made the critical mistake of putting me dead on board several ways instead of dropping Nahiri lower. I ulted Nahiri for Noxious Gearhulk, killed his Avacyn and his gideon as his token could not block the menacing gearhulk without Avacyn still alive, then returned the Gearhulk to my hand, buying me a ton of room. Next turn, I replayed the gearhulk from hand and there was no coming back from that for my opponent. Ulting to grab Linvala and GDD is often great too; there was even one game, not in this set, where I ulted for Void Winnower to kill them through all their even cost blockers. (they can only respond to the ult; they don't actually get to respond to the VW etbing so that shut off all their removal)
Re:archfiend:
-I originally had the demon of dark schemes in instead of archfiend as well, but found the ability to cycle the demon better than the higher payoff of the demon. You can also repeatedly cycle through cards, so the fiend can sweep bigger boards. That said, he hasn't been amazing in testing either and I didn't get the demon on board that often, so I'm not positive this is correct yet. The cycling is probably more important than the creature stats on either.
The 5 matchups were 3 marvel decks, 1 gr energy list and 1 ur control list. GR energy was actually the easier despite the deck being built to crush Marvel. The constant removal wrecks them. You can kill Hydra with a big enough earth or fumigate from the board too. Thinking of trying a blessed alliance too for that, but it is worse with GDD.
It's possible the correct decision is to just play like a combo deck and go all in on winnower. The other creatures- GDD, Noxious Gearhulk and Linvala- are great, especially at stabilizing and GDD would probably get a spot regardless as just a playable card. There's no denying, however, that Winnower is the real payoff.
As far as getting it in play goes, it's usually only as difficult as resolving a Liliana. Nobody runs grave exile and discarding the winnower happens as part of a cost, so they can't stop it. You will be able to rummage it before the relevant turn too.
Some notes I just wrote on the list on Salv:
I would say the deck is favored against every matchup except UR control, where they have countermagic for your pws and can punish the rummage spells. To that end, I've added more painful truths to the side to replace some of your rummages, so counters aren't backbreaking and they actually need to counter the spells more as you draw more off them. Sin prodders are brought in as well as an additional threat that can dump dudes in the yard in place of the rummage spells. They also abuse the new split card rules which, ironically enough, were created to prevent other abuses. A sin prodder will flip never to return for 7 damage, for example, even though the spell you care about casting is 3 mana. The mardu vehicles matchup is pretty close too, since you have to line up specific answers. The deck has them, but you need to have them in quick order to deal with their pressure.
Some other notes:
-GDD is excellent here. I upped the count from 1 to 2, then 2 to 3 in testing. 4 might even be appropriate. He synergizes so well with all the discarding, reanimating, and, specifically sweltering suns, which he can use to keep the board clear while living himself. (This is even better because he has menace- a GDD flashing back suns can just snipe a Gideon out of nowhere)
-The maindeck dispossess is a nice weapon against marvel that also hits UR control and mardu with a bit less impact. The deck has so much rummaging that getting to a special tech piece or discarding it if you draw it and don't need it isn't an issue at all. Similar logic to heaven to earth here.
-The playstyle is that you generally function as a Mardu control deck for the first few turns, removing your opponents creatures and using your rummage spells to make your land drops, find your pws, and get critters in the yard. If you can turn 5 a void winnower, you will end most matchups outside Mardu on the spot. (Look at the marvel lists- Whirler Virtuoso is literally their only maindeck path to victory once winnower hits the board)
-The deck is exceptional at dealing with non creature permanents and especially at exiling permanents, with the single anguished unmaking, cast outs, dec in stone, and nahiris. This is by design, as it gives the deck the ability to kill a resolved marvel after one spin as well as the ability to deal with ulamogs. You're also less exposed to random problematic non creature permanents game 1.
-Ulting Nahiri is great in this deck. One opponent made the critical mistake of putting me dead on board several ways instead of dropping Nahiri lower. I ulted Nahiri for Noxious Gearhulk, killed his Avacyn and his gideon as his token could not block the menacing gearhulk without Avacyn still alive, then returned the Gearhulk to my hand, buying me a ton of room. Next turn, I replayed the gearhulk from hand and there was no coming back from that for my opponent. Ulting to grab Linvala and GDD is often great too; there was even one game, not in this set, where I ulted for Void Winnower to kill them through all their even cost blockers. (they can only respond to the ult; they don't actually get to respond to the VW etbing so that shut off all their removal)
Re:archfiend:
-I originally had the demon of dark schemes in instead of archfiend as well, but found the ability to cycle the demon better than the higher payoff of the demon. You can also repeatedly cycle through cards, so the fiend can sweep bigger boards. That said, he hasn't been amazing in testing either and I didn't get the demon on board that often, so I'm not positive this is correct yet. The cycling is probably more important than the creature stats on either.
The 5 matchups were 3 marvel decks, 1 gr energy list and 1 ur control list. GR energy was actually the easier despite the deck being built to crush Marvel. The constant removal wrecks them. You can kill Hydra with a big enough earth or fumigate from the board too. Thinking of trying a blessed alliance too for that, but it is worse with GDD.
It's possible the correct decision is to just play like a combo deck and go all in on winnower. The other creatures- GDD, Noxious Gearhulk and Linvala- are great, especially at stabilizing and GDD would probably get a spot regardless as just a playable card. There's no denying, however, that Winnower is the real payoff.
SigmasonicX
Member
It'd be great if MagicGAF was the one to discover a big new Standard deck, especially one with a ton of unexpected cards. It looks really interesting, traveler!
Something I'm worried about- thinking through it now- is confiscation coup, which is already present in the meta. It can get through a resolved Void Winnower and turn off all your even spells. This deck CAN deal with that, unlike others- never // return, anguished unmaking, a GDD flashing back either- so it's not the end of the world, but it is a huge blow. Transgress can clear the way and then they're reliant on topdecking it in a few turns to stand a chance, so hopefully it's not too big a deal. Just something to consider.
You can try ever afters and rise from the graves in her place. (Rise might actually be better here- there's so few creatures that the mana cheaper is probably better than the double rez; haven't tested that thoroughly though) They're definitely worse, but you can still rez a Void Winnower turn 5. The real downside isn't missing the potential to downtick Lili more than once; it's the card being dead when you don't/can't rez anything and Lili is a win condition with token making on her own.
true dat.
Imperfected
Member
It's to rub it in. You can still even, it's your opponent that can't.
And yeah, super underrated card. I run it in my EDH Eldrazi deck and often found myself wanting it over a titan depending on how much of a clusterfuck the board state is.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
I wish it stopped odds and not evens though. There seems to be more EDH targeted creature removal in 1, 3, 5 than 2, 4, 6.
Yo, that Mardu Void Winnower deck looks sick as fuck. I hadn't quite realized how much of the premium removal in the format has an even cc, but wow. It's pretty much only Never, Disintegration, and Unmaking in terms of spot removal, right?
I wonder how a Grixis build of that would do, trading in stuff like Linvala, Declaration, and Unmaking for some counter spells to deal with the handful of even-numbered removal spells that can get rid of Winnower? Maybe add in some Torrential Gearhulks for extra spell recursion alongside GDD. That sounds like a really fun build to me, but Lord knows I don't have the cash on hand to make it happen.
I wonder how a Grixis build of that would do, trading in stuff like Linvala, Declaration, and Unmaking for some counter spells to deal with the handful of even-numbered removal spells that can get rid of Winnower? Maybe add in some Torrential Gearhulks for extra spell recursion alongside GDD. That sounds like a really fun build to me, but Lord knows I don't have the cash on hand to make it happen.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Get ready for SaffronOlive to steal your list and go "WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" whenever he wins.
Also I already sold off all my Nahiri
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Void Winnower just leads to a ton of scooping in EDH
keeblerdrow
Member
Can anyone with SCG premium screenshot and PM me Sam Black's article updating Abzan Tokens? It was posted today and I haven't ordered from them in a couple months.
I still don't get it. Is it a reference to having sex and some borderline Yu-Gi-oh joke combined?
Poodlestrike
Banned
Fun fact: Pharaohs are not, in fact, from Yu-Gi-Oh.
It's a play on a Kanye West lyric.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Everything is Yeezus lyrics. Titles never make sense to me as a result.
charlequin
Banned
Yeah, the existing foil Kaalia is sixty bucks and this one's gonna be nicer looking since it doesn't use the FTV foil.
get your life right
Joe Molotov
Member
Sometimes they're Eazy-E lyrics...
SigmasonicX
Member
Magic Story - Pride of the Kraul
* Back to Ravnica for a bit. The kraul, insect people, are feeling snubbed by Jarad and the other Golgari leaders.
* Jarad's assistant, Sobeslav, is keeping track of events above ground. There is a lot of unrest, and no Living Guildpact to manage it.
* He sees an invitation to Jarad from Mazirek of the kraul. He laughs at the gall and throws it away. Still, he's curious, and decides to go investigate with some soldiers. The meeting place is three days away.
* After a claustrophobic journey, they arrive. Mazirek is disappointed Jarad himself isn't there.
* Mazirek asks Sobeslav what the Golgari think of the kraul, as other kraul laugh. Sobeslav avoids mentioning his disdain, but his guards start dying. Mazirek had been slowly killing them for the past few minutes, one cell at a time. Sobeslav dies last.
* In a flashback, Vraska talks to Mazirek. She explains to him the meaning of pride. It was unfamiliar to him as a concept, but he instantly understood. He felt pride killing Sobeslav and the others.
* He uses their souls to revive an army of undead from Umerilek, Mausoleum of the Erstwhile. He will use them to create a Golgari empire.
* Back to Ravnica for a bit. The kraul, insect people, are feeling snubbed by Jarad and the other Golgari leaders.
* Jarad's assistant, Sobeslav, is keeping track of events above ground. There is a lot of unrest, and no Living Guildpact to manage it.
* He sees an invitation to Jarad from Mazirek of the kraul. He laughs at the gall and throws it away. Still, he's curious, and decides to go investigate with some soldiers. The meeting place is three days away.
* After a claustrophobic journey, they arrive. Mazirek is disappointed Jarad himself isn't there.
* Mazirek asks Sobeslav what the Golgari think of the kraul, as other kraul laugh. Sobeslav avoids mentioning his disdain, but his guards start dying. Mazirek had been slowly killing them for the past few minutes, one cell at a time. Sobeslav dies last.
* In a flashback, Vraska talks to Mazirek. She explains to him the meaning of pride. It was unfamiliar to him as a concept, but he instantly understood. He felt pride killing Sobeslav and the others.
* He uses their souls to revive an army of undead from Umerilek, Mausoleum of the Erstwhile. He will use them to create a Golgari empire.
Like I didn't know. But I somehow expected the OT to have a compatible jab at YGH, because hey, Egyptian theme, Egyptian god cards, would be a waste to throw the chance away.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Speccing isn't illegal or even vaguely wrong. If he can make money by unilaterally making a deck or card popular, good for him. He's already making money off these videos and its not like he builds these decks by himself.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
its a random rap lyric
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That wasn't the point.
Kanye is overrated especially on gaf. This is not my first OT obsessed with him.
charlequin
Banned
Kinda a bit on the nose, really. All the best YGO jokes are evergreen bits from the Abridged Series videos anyway.
literally not possible
Infinite Stars
Member
Huh, it's almost like Jace has a fucking job to do that excuses him from being a Jacetice League Member.
If they just brush this off I'm going to be pissed, because Civil War on Ravnica for the second time in three years is a perfect excuse to ditch Jace. Either that or give the role to Lavina, who actually deserves it.
Still having a blast with modern WB Eldrazi. It's so nice playing a deck that doesn't have a bunch of crippling hate cards to dodge (although Blood Moon is pretty bad due to not being able to fetch basics and not having a Wastes in the deck.) My last two decks on MTGO were Tron and Storm and games 2 and 3 with those decks can be such a slog.
I love playing 4 Relics in the mainboard! They win so many game 1s in typically unfavorable matchups like Dredge and Storm, and are great for hitting your land drops. The biggest change I've made so far is moving the Shriekmaw to the sideboard and adding a Flickerwisp. Not in love with the singleton Ratchet Bomb either, but we'll see how it goes for now.
I love playing 4 Relics in the mainboard! They win so many game 1s in typically unfavorable matchups like Dredge and Storm, and are great for hitting your land drops. The biggest change I've made so far is moving the Shriekmaw to the sideboard and adding a Flickerwisp. Not in love with the singleton Ratchet Bomb either, but we'll see how it goes for now.
It's pretty clear that they're setting up the Jace vs. Vraska rivalry to be a huge part of the plot of the next Ravnica block.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Except you guys were saying it's better for him to "keep up his image" but there's no reason that would lower his image in the eyes of anyone who doesn't persistently breathe through their mouths.
Odd that the Golgari can't seem to keep a guildleader around for very long. If we get some weird Bug-person Shaman as the guildleader in RTRTR, I guess I'll be OK with it, but I kinda wish that there'd be a more stable iconic figure for them, like how your have Rakdos and Niv Mizzet and the Ghost Council.
I get that they aren't the only one to have things shaken up between Ravnica and RTR, but getting shaken up again seems to be a little much for me.
SigmasonicX
Member
It looks like Wizards is teaming up with the Unspoken Realms blog to get same day releases of audio versions of each Magic Story, as the Daily Update implies.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That Reanimator deck that traveler posted is fun as fuck. The deck actually plays like a toolbox and you just blow so many dudes out with Sweltering Suns, and often, Goblin Dark-Dwellers flashing back...Sweltering Suns.
If at first you don't succeed...
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Of course it would lower his image if he decides to spec on his own brews, no matter whether he'd deserve it or not. Especially if he were not upfront about it.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They don't - they just pick a few at random, I think; I've 5-0'd a league and never saw it posted at all.
I mean, I guess it would depend on whether he was deceptive about it - e.g. he only posted the videos where he wins.
Kinda weird. Wonder what the reasoning is there? Like, if you want to hide the meta, just don't show anything. Otherwise it'd seem like they'd list them all.
Glad you're enjoying the deck! Have you tried any changes/had any new ideas for it?
I've found the best way to approach control is not to rummage away dudes. Casting them and then recurring them, forcing them to answer them twice is far better than going for early reanimation. (Unless they've stumbled on lands or something) Won a few game 1s against control like that.
Glad you're enjoying the deck! Have you tried any changes/had any new ideas for it?
I've found the best way to approach control is not to rummage away dudes. Casting them and then recurring them, forcing them to answer them twice is far better than going for early reanimation. (Unless they've stumbled on lands or something) Won a few game 1s against control like that.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I guess my issue is that I still can't beat Marvel at all. They just always have Marvel in their hands every time I play them and play them before I can dispossess or anything similar. I think so far I am 0-5 against marvel in matches and 0-10 in games.
I rather wonder if Succumb to Temptation is better than Painful Truths, also - you can't flash back Painful Truths with GDD but you can Succumb.
I did think about trying a copy of that yeah. Also thought about having at least one copy of ruinous path for the same reason.
Re: marvel- turn 4 ulamog on the play will still beat the deck. I just usually find that either an early transgress or disposses will put them off, or they miss the first time and then you can cast out or unmake it. There's definitely draws they can get that beat the deck; I've just had an easier time beating marvel with this than any other deck. (outside a lucky marvel mirror)
Re: marvel- turn 4 ulamog on the play will still beat the deck. I just usually find that either an early transgress or disposses will put them off, or they miss the first time and then you can cast out or unmake it. There's definitely draws they can get that beat the deck; I've just had an easier time beating marvel with this than any other deck. (outside a lucky marvel mirror)
keeblerdrow
Member
How does this deck fair against any hand with several cards that read "counter target spell"? Cause I play in a 50%+ control meta. Trying to resolve a Liliana or Nahiri as the first real threats of my deck seems impossible. Are you leaning hard on your discard to clear that path?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think the board does need to be tuned there. I do agree that Never // Return might be worse than just playing Ruinous Path because you really want those GDD to be practically toolboxes when you cast them.
I wouldn't be surprised if Hazoret or something was actually decent there - it's not a fast clock but throwing things at your opponent does in fact kill them and unless you specifically pack exile its hard to kill.
Yeah, I'm going to try replacing all the main deck nevers with paths. I think you're 100% right about that. There were several times GDD could have saved me from various threats had they been paths. I might still leave one never in the sideboard, as return occassionally does net value- either off hitting recurrable threats/spells or just getting milled with lily and churning out a 2/2 when you have nothing better to do.
Re: UR control- I've actually only lost the matchup once out of 4 matches (small sample I know) but I still feel it's pretty unfavored. What I've been doing is:
a) rummaging away weak spot removal/other rummage spells. It can be pretty backbreaking to have several rummage spells countered, so getting rid of them in this matchup is fine.
b) casting the creatures instead of pitching them for reanimation. they usually get countered but forcing them to counter you pws, draw spells, and creatures will put them under the gun and eventually they can run out. It also forces their answers to line up, since you have both critical creature and non creature threats.
c) cycling away cast out unless a gearhulk is present/imminent and sweltering suns pretty much every time.
d) when all else fails, beats with shambing vent
e) in the sideboarded games, replacing cathartic reunion with more painful truths and dropping some number of sweeps/removal spells for transgress and sin prodders.
I leave the one maindeck dispossess in but don't bring in more. Getting a nice miser's surgical on gearhulks definitely won me 1 or 2 games, so its nice to have the potential and, if it bites it to a counterspell, that's great. You have way more important cards to resolve.
While the deck doesn't do anything to pressure control early since its early game spells are rummaging and removal AND theres a number of dead cards in the matchup, it is possible to rummage/cycle through all your dead cards and basically present them with a lot of must answer cards. This is the best shot you have at winning the matchup.
Re:hazoret- that was my initial idea too. Then I realized the deck rarely has 1 or less cards in hand. (You generally cycle through cards while slowly losing them 1 by 1 to removal instead of just throwing away your hand) Also, once you hit 5 or 6 lands, the correct play is generally to hold 1 or 2 cards back to cash in with a potential reunion or voice anyways.
Re: UR control- I've actually only lost the matchup once out of 4 matches (small sample I know) but I still feel it's pretty unfavored. What I've been doing is:
a) rummaging away weak spot removal/other rummage spells. It can be pretty backbreaking to have several rummage spells countered, so getting rid of them in this matchup is fine.
b) casting the creatures instead of pitching them for reanimation. they usually get countered but forcing them to counter you pws, draw spells, and creatures will put them under the gun and eventually they can run out. It also forces their answers to line up, since you have both critical creature and non creature threats.
c) cycling away cast out unless a gearhulk is present/imminent and sweltering suns pretty much every time.
d) when all else fails, beats with shambing vent
e) in the sideboarded games, replacing cathartic reunion with more painful truths and dropping some number of sweeps/removal spells for transgress and sin prodders.
I leave the one maindeck dispossess in but don't bring in more. Getting a nice miser's surgical on gearhulks definitely won me 1 or 2 games, so its nice to have the potential and, if it bites it to a counterspell, that's great. You have way more important cards to resolve.
While the deck doesn't do anything to pressure control early since its early game spells are rummaging and removal AND theres a number of dead cards in the matchup, it is possible to rummage/cycle through all your dead cards and basically present them with a lot of must answer cards. This is the best shot you have at winning the matchup.
Re:hazoret- that was my initial idea too. Then I realized the deck rarely has 1 or less cards in hand. (You generally cycle through cards while slowly losing them 1 by 1 to removal instead of just throwing away your hand) Also, once you hit 5 or 6 lands, the correct play is generally to hold 1 or 2 cards back to cash in with a potential reunion or voice anyways.
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