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[Angry Grimace]

Counters definitely are in a very good spot right now. Name anything that can't be answered by blue spells. Censor is incredible to have as well.

UR swings on the other end of spectrum in being almost entirely reactive. Having either extreme isn't ideal.

Censor is the easiest card in the universe to play around because everyone will use it 100% of the time if it will counter anything, just don't play your good cards into having no open mana up. I dunno, I don't get it. Control doesn't seem even vaguely overpowered and it seems like a ridiculous thing to complain about in a format with Marvel and a bunch of shit you can't interact with.

 

[Violet_0]

didn't they want to make a MMO for a long time?

I mean, the setting is absolutely great for a MMORPG, but the genre is kind of dying right now

 

[cooltrainer]

I did a quick search and it looks like blue has the most flash creatures, around 40, white and green have around 25, red has 7 and black has 3(excluding multicolor). I agree it's mostly non-thematic but it does seem like something red should have more of.

 

[Infinite Stars]

High Variance cards that randomly win the game are typically overcosted Johnny shit. When it turns into Spike shit it makes the game dumb.

Basically. Everyone's fine an Ulamog being cheated into play with a 3 card combo (+Ulamog), but you make it be one card is all you need(and a non interactive resource) and it becomes dumb.

Energy is a johnny mechanic that was pushed to be Spike level, but with 0 consideration that doing so ignores what makes Johnnies tolerable: them having to jump through loops to get it off. Like, Compare Gifts Combo in Modern(which is 3 cards, 8 Mana, and dies to any hate as it's basically sorcery speed) to Marvel(1 card, 4 Mana, instant speed) and it's evident.

As PBKaSO said, it's bad when maindecking 4 Lost Legacies is a decent call.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Censor is the easiest card in the universe to play around because everyone will use it 100% of the time if it will counter anything.

That's not true at all. You'd rather cycle a censor than counter something unthreatening. There's also a lot to be gained by sandbagging another censor.
People play into sensor all the time and playing around it is already value.

 

[Ashodin]

didn't they want to make a MMO for a long time?

I mean, the setting is absolutely great for a MMORPG, but the genre is kind of dying right now

eh, depending on how they do it it could be really cool and very niche, meaning that it would draw looks because it's unique.

 

[DrArchon]

didn't they want to make a MMO for a long time?

I mean, the setting is absolutely great for a MMORPG, but the genre is kind of dying right now

The environment seems toxic right now for any MMO, even for an established brand like Magic. I can't think of the last one that came out and didn't just die on the vine immediately or be forced to switch to F2P before dying shortly after.

If they want an online presence, they should make a digital card game comparable to Hearthstone in quality and scope, which I'm impressed they still haven't managed to do.

 

[Angry Grimace]

That's not true at all. You'd rather cycle a censor than counter something unthreatening. There's also a lot to be gained by sandbagging another censor.
People play into sensor all the time and playing around it is already value.

Fine, you're right, UR Control is the best deck in the format.

Let's talk about something else now.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Fine, you're right, UR Control is the best deck in the format.

Let's talk about something else now.

Go ahead and quote me on when I ever said that or even insinuated anything of the kind.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Go ahead and quote me on when I ever said that or even insinuated anything of the kind.

UR Control is the best deck in the format and isn't fair

Spoiler

You didn't say I had to quote you accurately

 

[Murder]

So they are debating the banning of Marvel pretty much non-stop on Reddit this week.

I'm pretty clear in my thinking on this--ban it and let's move on. Not banning Marvel now will severely hamper WOTCs ability in the future to make big, badass, exciting creatures with incredible abilities and mechanics. Ramping into these big creatures (even with or without big payoffs) has always worked and been accepted fine; casting these creatures normally on curve has been fine; casting these creatures on Turn 4 randomly with a Marvel is not.

I'm also against the unbanning of Reflector Mage as some had suggested--fug that.

 

[alternade]

So they are debating the banning of Marvel pretty much non-stop on Reddit this week.

I'm pretty clear in my thinking on this--ban it and let's move on. Not banning Marvel now will severely hamper WOTCs ability in the future to make big, badass, exciting creatures with incredible abilities and mechanics. Ramping into these big creatures (even with or without big payoffs) has always worked and been accepted fine; casting these creatures normally on curve has been fine; casting these creatures on Turn 4 randomly with a Marvel is not.

I'm also against the unbanning of Reflector Mage as some had suggested--fug that.

Cards like Marvel wouldn't be an issue if they printed decent answers or not make keywords and abilities that are uninteractive. There should have been a way for players to remove energy

 

[charlequin]

Digital Next news please.

There'll be something digital in this announcement but it's already been established that the real MDN coming-out party will be at Hascon.

didn't they want to make a MMO for a long time?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1375347

Cards like Marvel wouldn't be an issue if they printed decent answers or not make keywords and abilities that are uninteractive. There should have been a way for players to remove energy

No, this doesn't solve the problem at all and attacks far and away the least relevant part of what's wrong with Marvel.

 

[Imperfected]

The environment seems toxic right now for any MMO, even for an established brand like Magic. I can't think of the last one that came out and didn't just die on the vine immediately or be forced to switch to F2P before dying shortly after.

If they want an online presence, they should make a digital card game comparable to Hearthstone in quality and scope, which I'm impressed they still haven't managed to do.

The Asian market for MMOs is still doing fine (FFXIV, Black Desert, etc.), but the Western market is pretty much a ghost town with not only a lack of any clear successor to the WoW juggernaut, but a relatively failure to even recapture its dwindling audience across any number of competitors, yeah.

That said, it's not like Magic doesn't have decent appeal in Asian markets, if they wanted to go that way.

 

[Infinite Stars]

The Asian market for MMOs is still doing fine (FFXIV, Black Desert, etc.), but the Western market is pretty much a ghost town with not only a lack of any clear successor to the WoW juggernaut, but a relatively failure to even recapture its dwindling audience across any number of competitors, yeah.

That said, it's not like Magic doesn't have decent appeal in Asian markets, if they wanted to go that way.

I mean, this is the right thread for it, but I'd argue that the real issue is that we went from a world where an MMORPG was a genre in and of it's own to the genre becoming integrated into a lot of big games. Destiny, despite it's billing, really is an MMO. Same goes for stuff like the Division.

The more games integrate these elements, the less appeal there is to an MMO. I mean, Peak WoW was 2008-20010, Peak CoD(which is 2009-2012?), and since then we've had a rise of these MMO-like other games.

 

[hermit7]

There'll be something digital in this announcement but it's already been established that the real MDN coming-out party will be at Hascon.



http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1375347



No, this doesn't solve the problem at all and attacks far and away the least relevant part of what's wrong with Marvel.

Marvel should have had a type rider and it should etb, not cast. It could even have been like pod too at sorcery speed only and that would have made a ton of the issues less relevant. A turn 4 ulamog is still really good, but if they have to wait a turn it still makes removal like dec in stone much better.

Hell even making them sac the marvel during activation are all constraints that would have made the card more balanced and less swingy.

 

[DrArchon]

The Asian market for MMOs is still doing fine (FFXIV, Black Desert, etc.), but the Western market is pretty much a ghost town with not only a lack of any clear successor to the WoW juggernaut, but a relatively failure to even recapture its dwindling audience across any number of competitors, yeah.

That said, it's not like Magic doesn't have decent appeal in Asian markets, if they wanted to go that way.

That's true, but I'd imagine a company like Hasbro would look for results better than "It's dead in the West but decently popular in Asia" for a big budget game based off of one of the most popular fantasy IPs out there.

Again, they just need to update MTGO to be F2P and have the ease of use and flair of Hearthstone. It's criminal that MTGO is still in the shape that it is, it's a huge part of why any of these popular digital card games have gained so much steam.

 

[Wulfric]

I don't think anyone's posted the full size Archenemy planeswalkers, so here ya go. The high res Bolas is from the auction.

Nicol Bolas is pure awesome. The translucent wings are a great touch. I'd love for the owner of Ugin to pick this one up and show off the dragons framed side by side.

The angle on the the planeswalkers is underwhelming. It's not a very flattering look for them, but I guess it makes sense for the story. I assume it's from Bola's vantage point

 

[Yeef]

There's lots of ways to fix marvel while leaving the same basic design intact. I think having to pay X energy then look at the top six and cast a spell that costs X or less is one way.

As an aside, I also think that Harnessed Lightning is just a hair over the line of being too good right now. It kills just about anything that doesn't have indestructible and power aether hub to make it easier to splash. It also avoids tricks since you decide how much to pay on resolution.

 

[Violet_0]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1375347

thanks
I mean, it's likely going to be terrible, but there's a lot of potential there

 

[Imperfected]

We already told Red players Lightning Bolt is too good for them, if we tell them Harnessed Lightning is still too good for the them they're likely to revolt. (Or at least, they would if Red had it as a mechanic.)

 

[Murder]

Cards like Marvel wouldn't be an issue if they printed decent answers or not make keywords and abilities that are uninteractive. There should have been a way for players to remove energy

A lot of the decks in the top-32 that are non-Marvel already play some form of Manglehorn and Dissenters Deliverance. Those are decent answers but it hasn't done much to curb Marvels dominance.

Any big boy creature printed in the future is always going to be a "that'll be nice to hit off Marvel" attached to it.

I like Marvel, seems like it'd be kinda okay-fun to play, but it's just so poorly designed. Allowing the card to be cast or receive any sort of ETB effects was just a bad decision. The extended rotation + the card created a perfect storm of suckage.

There's lots of ways to fix marvel while leaving the same basic design intact. I think having to pay X energy then look at the top six and cast a spell that costs X or less is one way.

As an aside, I also think that Harnessed Lightning is just a hair over the line of being too good right now. It kills just about anything that doesn't have indestructible and power aether hub to make it easier to splash. It also avoids tricks since you decide how much to pay on resolution.

Ya, Harnessed Lightning is nasty atm. And to think people sided with Galvanic Bombardment at the beginning of the format. I'm okay with it being super good at the moment--it's right in red's wheelhouse.

 

[Giant Panda]

Outside of the Eldrazi, being cast instead of ETB is nearly always downside. And had they not messed around with the rotation, Ulamog and Chandra would have been gone already and the deck would be much weaker.

 

[DrArchon]

Outside of the Eldrazi, being cast instead of ETB is nearly always downside. And had they not messed around with the rotation, Ulamog and Chandra would have been gone already and the deck would be much weaker.

Yeah, Marvel casting cards isn't the problem. It's Marvel casting the cards at instant speed on turn 4.

I do wonder how Marvel decks would look if the sets had rotated as planned. Would people be running Sandwurm Convergence instead? I'd imagine Bolas would be looked at a lot more favorably than he is right now.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

That's all presupposing Emrakul still got banned.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Why do people keep going off about Bolas' +2? His +1 seems better.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Because it's more fun.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

both are underwhelming

 

[Yeef]

Why do people keep going off about Bolas' +2? His +1 seems better.

Assuming your opponent isn't running tons of counterspells, the +2 is where you'll get the most value. It's definitely more matchup dependant though.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Why do people keep going off about Bolas' +2? His +1 seems better.

People want to dream about scoring the big hit rather than making what is (usually) the best play. I mean this is all beyond the fact that "OMG, hit Bolas off of Marvel and win!" is a bit silly to start with. Hell, hitting, say, Sandwurm Convergence would probably win you more games than Bolas as an Ulamog replacement.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Assuming your opponent isn't running tons of counterspells, the +2 is where you'll get the most value. It's definitely more matchup dependant though.

I don't think that's true. I don't think using the +2 is a good idea ever because the vast majority of decks contain lots of cards that don't do anything useful for you.

Even against Marvel, why would you ever +2? Hitting any card other than Ulamog probably sucks. Hitting anything in UR Control other than Gearhulk sucks. Hitting a Heart of Kiran sucks because you're probably not playing a deck that can do anything with it. Hitting a Toolcraft Exemplar is the lamest thing you could do with a 7 mana Planeswalker. Against a rogue deck, you're at the mercy of whatever your opponent put in their deck.

The correct time to use the +2 is when you used Mishra's Bauble and know your opponent has Emrakul, the Aeons Torn on top.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

AER and KLD redemption ends on MTGO soon. Might want to cash in on your cards now.

 

[traveler]

Who all is going to GP Vegas and for which events?

I'll be doing some of the history of draft events, full box 2hg amonkhet, chaos sealed, and the modern main event at least, though still debating between Grixis control, Grixis shadow, and esper shadow.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Wait is Gaby latinx? She's currently at her parents or grand parents in Ecuador streaming and seemingly spoke perfect spanish.

 

[aidan]

Wait is Gaby latinx? She's currently at her parents or grand parents in Ecuador streaming and seemingly spoke perfect spanish.

English is Gaby's second language.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Wait is Gaby latinx? She's currently at her parents or grand parents in Ecuador streaming and seemingly spoke perfect spanish.

I'd imagine so, considering her parents live in Ecuador. From her Twitch Page:

Q: You have an accent. Where are you from? I was born and raised in Quito, Ecuador. I came to the U.S. when I was 17 to go to college. I graduated from the University of Notre Dame. Now I live in Chicago with Zoe.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

She has an accent?

Mind Blown.

 

[Imperfected]

Hitting a Heart of Kiran sucks because you're probably not playing a deck that can do anything with it.

I feel like if you're using Nicol Bolas's +2 you actually completely meet the requirements to do things with Heart of Kiran, even if it's maybe a bit underwhelming at that point in the game.

That's more because Heart of Kiran is a zero-effort include of a card, though.

 

[A_Dang]

Potentially quick question: How would you define a "Net-deck"?

I'm not really interested in turning this into a discussion about if "net-decking" good or bad, I just want to know how you define it.

Is something a "net-deck" only if it is a full-list copy, card for card, of a deck found on-line?
Is something a "net-deck" if the person brewing it uses tools such as EDHREC, or an amalgamation of other deck lists that are placing in tournaments? How much does a deck need to be influenced by or stem from another deck to be considered a "net-deck"? Is running a pre-con commander deck "net-decking"?

Edit: Also, if this is one of the "circling the drain" topics that comes up over and over again (like talking about un-banning Stoneforge Mystic) then please skip right over it! I don't want to devolve the conversation!

 

[Imperfected]

It's a net-deck if you got it from the internet rather than having the idea to construct it yourself. That's it. Yes, that means even an awful deck that can never win can be a net-deck if you pulled the list or core engine/combo from an online source, and even the most try-hard tournament deck could not be a net a net-deck if you put it together independently.

Like, the Void Winnower Reanimator deck that's been talked about over the last few pages is not a net-deck for traveller because he made it, and it would be a net-deck for anyone else in this thread that decided to put it together. It's really that simple.

The obvious connotation, though, is that it's the best (at least as a ratio of cost to performance) deck you could find on the internet, even if that's not always the case. Some people are both equally uncreative and bad at using Google.

 

[Poppy]

nothing wrong with netdecking a bit, especially in edh where there are thousands of cards you dont know about. i usually find all the cards i can on gatherer and look at a list for a commander for any other good ideas, then end up with a mix of stuff that is known and good and whatever cards i like too much to cut

i mean clearly theres nothing wrong with netdecking at all, some people would rather play than look at card lists

i would just rather look at gatherer and assemble decks for several hours before playing because thats fun to me

 

[A_Dang]

It's a net-deck if you got it from the internet rather than having the idea to construct it yourself.

Say I decide to build a Neheb commander deck. I know I want to do Minotaur tribal with a major focus on hand disruption. If I take that idea and then visit EDHREC for more card ideas, is that a net-deck?

I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I'm just trying to come up with a robust definition for what a "net-deck" is and is not.

Edit: Poppy, would you define what you do as "net-decking"?

 

[alternade]

Say I decide to build a Neheb commander deck. I know I want to do Minotaur tribal with a major focus on hand disruption. If I take that idea and then visit EDHREC for more card ideas, is that a net-deck?

I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I'm just trying to come up with a robust definition for what a "net-deck" is and is not.

To me net-decking is just how the game is played nowadays due to the internet and community deck building. I guess most people see net-decking as just copying card for card a winning or highly competitive deck. At this point almost every synergy and combo has been found so nothing is really "new". I wouldn't worry so much about especially if you're playing commander. I have plenty of decks that use a skeleton of the best cards surrounding my general but then I like to add some pet cards or substitutes for cards I either cant afford or are using in other decks, like Sensei's Divining Top and Crystal Ball.

 

[Imperfected]

Say I decide to build a Neheb commander deck. I know I want to do Minotaur tribal with a major focus on hand disruption. If I take that idea and then visit EDHREC for more card ideas, is that a net-deck?

I'm not trying to be difficult at all, I'm just trying to come up with a robust definition for what a "net-deck" is and is not.

Edit: Poppy, would you define what you do as "net-decking"?

Like I said, it's basically down to whether you came up with the core engine/combo yourself. If you're just filling out a few random cards on the list ("Oh I didn't know there was this cool Minotaur dude in that set, neat!") it's not really a net-deck, but if you don't even know what to do with Neheb's discard outlet without having to get it laid out for you, you didn't really have an idea for a Neheb deck, you just had the idea that someone could make a Neheb deck, ya savvy?

That said, as with most distinctions made purely for the sake of being derogatory, you shouldn't expect any real rhyme or reason to be applied in practice. People talk about net-decks mostly when they're being salty, and salt knows no bounds.

 

[Poppy]

Edit: Poppy, would you define what you do as "net-decking"?

i dunno, if someone told me i was a netdecker i would probably just say "ok"

i would call it average deck construction? idk

i guess i just dont care too much about using other peoples ideas as long as i dont take credit for anything thats particularly clever

 

[A_Dang]

To me net-decking is just how the game is played nowadays due to the internet and community deck building.

I agree, and then would argue that most people in some degree "net-deck" in what ever format they play in. I'm not really hung up on in I net-deck or not (I most certainly do), I am really just trying to dig in to find out what this community defines it as.

I was involved in a conversation with a local play group about net-decking and a few people are very anti-net-decking, but I think they would only define it as the card for card copy of someones list, which is not a definition I agree with.

Imperfected: I am not sure what you mean here:

"if you don't even know what to do with Neheb's discard outlet without having to get it laid out for you, you didn't really have an idea for a Neheb deck, you just had the idea that someone could make a Neheb deck"

That seems like its just a distinction between having a "bad"/basic deck idea, or having a "good"/fleshed out deck idea. You could still build a "bad" deck with just using him as a commander, and use cards you have seen from other lists.

 

[Imperfected]

That seems like its just a distinction between having a "bad"/basic deck idea, or having a "good"/fleshed out deck idea. You could still build a "bad" deck with just using him as a commander, and use cards you have seen from other lists.

People generally think of decks in terms of their key synergies and win conditions. If you're just throwing cards together that sort of work well together (ie, Neheb Tribal Minotaurs, Neheb Madness, very basic Neheb Reanimator, etc.) and not including a clear strategy I doubt you're ever in danger of anyone accusing of you of net-decking.

If people are warning you preemptively (rather than reactively) about net-decking, what they're probably saying is that it's a low/medium competition environment and if you show up with $1,000 worth of cards or a turn-four win deck they're going to think you're an asshole.

 

[A_Dang]

If people are warning you preemptively (rather than reactively) about net-decking, what they're probably saying is that it's a low/medium competition environment and if you show up with $1,000 worth of cards or a turn-four win deck they're going to think you're an asshole.

So is the lesson here that "net-decking" really is just deck building unless you are being unreasonably competitive/expensive for your meta? It's really just an insult to be hurled, and not a clearly define-able thing?

For the record: I am not building a Neheb deck, I am not accused of net-decking, though I would self-identify as an individual that net-decks, and I am usually on the more competitive side of my playgroup.

Spoiler

Though I am really still bad at Magic, like for real. Being competitive in my playgroup means running removal and a few counters in a commander deck

 

[Angry Grimace]

I feel like if you're using Nicol Bolas's +2 you actually completely meet the requirements to do things with Heart of Kiran, even if it's maybe a bit underwhelming at that point in the game.

That's more because Heart of Kiran is a zero-effort include of a card, though.

Oh, I forgot you can crew it with that. But getting a Heart still is kind of a meh thing to get with your 7 mana Planeswalker.

She has an accent?

Mind Blown.

I noticed her accent immediately. It's not thick, but its noticeable if you hear her talking a lot like when she did converge. "Gaby Spartz" isn't her maiden name, its Maria Gabriela Montero (I previously looked this up because I had wanted to find out where she was from, and not solely because I am creepy) She was married to Emerson Spartz, the guy that made the original Harry Potter fansite Mugglenet. He got really rich making shitty awful clickbait websites, which is what he still does.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Net-decking is a term used by noobs to shame people trying to ascend out of noob-hood into semi-competency.