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[Angry Grimace]

The deck Zvi posted on CFB this morning is a ton of fun.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Everyone's talking about bannings, did nobody see Manglehorn or what? It kills heart of kiran, metalwork colossus and aetherworks marvel. It shuts off the saheeli rai combo. It curves right into elder deep-fiend. It slices and dices. As long as you pair it ways to get through to planeswalkers you're set to go.

 

[Son1x]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";234092413]Everyone's talking about bannings, did nobody see Manglehorn or what? It kills heart of kiran, metalwork colossus and aetherworks marvel. It shuts off the saheeli rai combo. It curves right into elder deep-fiend. It slices and dices. As long as you pair it ways to get through to planeswalkers you're set to go.[/QUOTE]
It also dies to Shock and pretty much anything else.

 

[OnPoint]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";234092413]Everyone's talking about bannings, did nobody see Manglehorn or what? It kills heart of kiran, metalwork colossus and aetherworks marvel. It shuts off the saheeli rai combo. It curves right into elder deep-fiend. It slices and dices. As long as you pair it ways to get through to planeswalkers you're set to go.[/QUOTE]

One three mana card in a single color is going to save the format? I mean I agree it helps, but do you really think it can right the ship all by itself?

 

[DrArchon]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";234092413]Everyone's talking about bannings, did nobody see Manglehorn or what? It kills heart of kiran, metalwork colossus and aetherworks marvel. It shuts off the saheeli rai combo. It curves right into elder deep-fiend. It slices and dices. As long as you pair it ways to get through to planeswalkers you're set to go.[/QUOTE]

I'd be more excited if it was an enchantment honestly. At least then it wouldn't die to the most basic removal.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

One four mana card in a single color is going to save the format? I mean I agree it helps, but do you really think it can right the ship all by itself?

3 mana, unless I'm missing something.

 

[OnPoint]

3 mana, unless I'm missing something.

Heh. Whoops! Still, it's fragile if it's the ONLY answer to several decks.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Heh. Whoops! Still, it's fragile if it's the ONLY answer to several decks.

It doesn't matter. Thalia and Authority did the same thing, better, and it didn't matter. It's better against Mardu Vehicles than it is against Cat Combo, but even then, its not a foolproof way to stop the combo or to hate Vehicles out of the format.

 

[red13th]

Plus the combo was literally printed last set, so it would be in standard for like forever. If they don't ban it now it will warp the meta for such a long time it's just not worth it.

 

[OnPoint]

It doesn't matter. Thalia and Authority did the same thing, better, and it didn't matter. It's better against Mardu Vehicles than it is against Cat Combo, but even then, its not a foolproof way to stop the combo or to hate Vehicles out of the format.

I'm not arguing for it. I'm all about bans baby.

 

[Firemind]

Bolas will save Standard.

 

[Poppy]

how good would a grixis walker for like 7-8 mana have to be to see standard play

i assume bolas didnt before, but i also did not play back then so idk. but i assume this new walker will also cost a lot of mana

 

[pelicansurf]

how good would a grixis walker for like 7-8 mana have to be to see standard play

i assume bolas didnt before, but i also did not play back then so idk. but i assume this new walker will also cost a lot of mana

At Ugin's power level he'd be playable.

 

[Poppy]

would he? i assumed ugin was good because he cost colorless and wiped out the entire board when you played him, if he cost 4ubbr would he have been playable?

 

[DrArchon]

At Ugin's power level he'd be playable.

Part of that was because Ugin is colorless, so you could just put him into any green ramp deck, right (I honestly can't remember, but it makes sense in my head)?

I do hope Bolas is stupid powerful though. A 7-8 mana three color card better win you the damn game the turn you cast it.

 

[Tunoku]

Yeah in order for Bolas to see play we also need some kind of Grixis deck to be really good and also support an expensive Planeswalkers. Part of me wants him to see constructed play, but then I'm afraid we'd have another Emrakul scenario, where people are cheating him out with Marvel because the card has an "I win the game" ability. So it'd probably be for the better if it's just a good card for kitchen table Magic and Commander.

 

[charlequin]

Aftermath is almost definitely gone, given the names they've already had to stoop down to.

Aftermath is like a banner example of the exact kind of mechanic they keep having to write articles about how it was a mistake to pull it out from the block early, so I'm gonna take the over on this.

I really don't know why they didn't explore this design space more during Theros Block.

Because 90+% of the time it doesn't do anything relevant in duels. It makes much more sense as something to revisit somewhere like Conspiracy or Commander since you can have interesting interplay in a multiplayer game.

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

The problem with Enchant Worlds is that you can't look at an enchantmant and instantly know if it's an Enchant World or not. Just from the Mirage Block, why are some of these cards Enchant World and some of them not?

So you're telling me it should have some kind of special border...

 

[Angry Grimace]

how good would a grixis walker for like 7-8 mana have to be to see standard play

i assume bolas didnt before, but i also did not play back then so idk. but i assume this new walker will also cost a lot of mana

I mean, Cruel Ultimatum itself saw play

 

[Angry Grimace]

The problem with Enchant World is that its a mechanic that doesn't do anything that "Enchantment" doesn't. It's an all downside effect.

 

[OnPoint]

The problem with Enchant World is that its a mechanic that doesn't do anything that "Enchantment" doesn't. It's an all downside effect.

Hypothetically, I feel like an Enchant World should be a grand effect that does something a bit crazier or off the wall, and probably for a decently cheap price. It should truly affect how the game is being played symmetrically, preferably in a strange way. eg: Hall of Gemstone, Gravity Sphere, Land's Edge, Eye of Singularity

Yes there are crazy and powerful enchantments out there. But they could really play into that only-one-at-a-time aspect by pushing them due specifically to their inherent weakness.

If you're just going to make stock enchantments into Enchant Worlds then I agree with you.

 

[DrArchon]

Because 90+% of the time it doesn't do anything relevant in duels. It makes much more sense as something to revisit somewhere like Conspiracy or Commander since you can have interesting interplay in a multiplayer game.

Isn't that what the Planechase sets are all about? Except with the added factor of the die causing extra effects and switching things around, the planes are basically Enchant Worlds that aren't in anyone's decks.

 

[Infinite Stars]

They have to hit Gideon and part of CopyCat, unless they are wanting Standard to become Undead.

 

[GregLombardi]

They have to hit Gideon and part of CopyCat, unless they are wanting Standard to become Undead.

I've only played 2 standards. I played magic for 22 years before I dipped into Kaladesh standard for the first time in my life with B/G delirium emrakul. I thought the deck was fair but Emrakul was not with Marvel. Other than that, I had an absolutely fantastic time and fun playing standard, something I was loathe to do before.

When cat combo hit I wanted to kill my "magic" self and stop playing magic. I tried it on magic online, and in person, multiple FNMs. It is the opposite of fun, and I give Angry Grimace credit for calling it out super soon in this thread. I didn't think it would be as damaging as he / she was saying, but it has torpedoed Standard IMO.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Hypothetically, I feel like an Enchant World should be a grand effect that does something a bit crazier or off the wall, and probably for a decently cheap price. It should truly affect how the game is being played symmetrically, preferably in a strange way. eg: Hall of Gemstone, Gravity Sphere, Land's Edge, Eye of Singularity

Yes there are crazy and powerful enchantments out there. But they could really play into that only-one-at-a-time aspect by pushing them due specifically to their inherent weakness.

If you're just going to make stock enchantments into Enchant Worlds then I agree with you.

That's a downside effect they don't print anymore. Instead they staple them to creatures so that you add more vulnerability to the effect.

I've only played 2 standards. I played magic for 22 years before I dipped into Kaladesh standard for the first time in my life with B/G delirium emrakul. I thought the deck was fair but Emrakul was not with Marvel. Other than that, I had an absolutely fantastic time and fun playing standard, something I was loathe to do before.

When cat combo hit I wanted to kill my "magic" self and stop playing magic. I tried it on magic online, and in person, multiple FNMs. It is the opposite of fun, and I give Angry Grimace credit for calling it out super soon in this thread. I didn't think it would be as damaging as he / she was saying, but it has torpedoed Standard IMO.

Instantly losing is not a good effect for Magic. There's a reason Splinter Twin is banned in Modern - the prospect of losing on the spot to two cards early in the game if you can't immediately interact is inherently format warping.

People keep asking why they didn't ban it in the mid-season ban announcement - the reason is obvious: the format is incredibly unhealthy right now, but at the same time, Cat Combo isn't something like Memory Jar where it will cause you to legit lose the game on Turn 1 and banning stuff in the mid-season announcement has a much higher cost than banning something on the "normal" schedule because they aren't selling new cards when that happens.

 

[Ashodin]

They have to hit Gideon and part of CopyCat, unless they are wanting Standard to become Undead.

If they hit Gideon I'm fine with it; I have backup cards to replace in my human exertion rw deck.

 

[red13th]

I've watched a few standard videos in CFB and they almost apologized for playing standard.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's a simple matter of Standard not being any fun with decks like that around.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I've basically been playing two decks on the beta.

1) Temur Kibler, which beats down, ramps into Glorybringer, and gets value off of Vizier.

2) UW Draw Go which is objectively a terrible deck but wins games because people on the beta are honestly just screwing around and don't adjust their play patterns against it. I made a guy rage quit because I Gearhulk'd the Memory half of Commit to Memory in response to reanimating a Stitchwing. I also Disallowed a Liliana ultimate in another game, which felt awesome.

I'm only having fun because nobody is being a buzzkill and playing Saheeli on the beta.

 

[Firemind]

Yeah in order for Bolas to see play we also need some kind of Grixis deck to be really good and also support an expensive Planeswalkers. Part of me wants him to see constructed play, but then I'm afraid we'd have another Emrakul scenario, where people are cheating him out with Marvel because the card has an "I win the game" ability. So it'd probably be for the better if it's just a good card for kitchen table Magic and Commander.

...

Ban Marvel!

 

[Angry Grimace]

I've basically been playing two decks on the beta.

1) Temur Kibler, which beats down, ramps into Glorybringer, and gets value off of Vizier.

2) UW Draw Go which is objectively a terrible deck but wins games because people on the beta are honestly just screwing around and don't adjust their play patterns against it. I made a guy rage quit because I Gearhulk'd the Memory half of Commit to Memory in response to reanimating a Stitchwing. I also Disallowed a Liliana ultimate in another game, which felt awesome.

I'm only having fun because nobody is being a buzzkill and playing Saheeli on the beta.

I just quit as soon as they play Guardian. I don't want to spend time testing against it.

 

[Ashodin]

It's more of a waste to spend time vs. Felidar Guardian

Yo here's my fear

the Pros actively decide not to play Saheeli on camera during Amonkhet PT

People at WoTC go "oh the meta must be different now!" and then just avoid bannings altogether.

I mean at this point I fully expect they think, like God's Beard that they've successfully printed enough hate cards in the format for Mardu Vehicles and what was Copycat again?

 

[Maledict]

Aftermath is like a banner example of the exact kind of mechanic they keep having to write articles about how it was a mistake to pull it out from the block early, so I'm gonna take the over on this.



Because 90+% of the time it doesn't do anything relevant in duels. It makes much more sense as something to revisit somewhere like Conspiracy or Commander since you can have interesting interplay in a multiplayer game.

I said the design space, not the actual original design (which as you say, does nothing generally). But it feels like they didn't really "push" enchantments in the enchantment block anywhere near as much as they have artifacts in the artifact blocks. its always felt to me like Mark hugely likes artifacts, and that's come at the expense of enchantments (and actual colored cards sometimes).

Hmm. Is Mark secretly Ashodin?

 

[Imperfected]

Yo here's my fear

the Pros actively decide not to play Saheeli on camera during Amonkhet PT

This is a weird enough thing to randomly be afraid of that you're almost qualified to start your own right-wing political movement based around it.

 

[Ashodin]

This is a weird enough thing to randomly be afraid of that you're almost qualified to start your own right-wing political movement based around it.

It always feels like WotC just misses the forest for the trees man.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Ashodin's fear isn't all that much of a conspiracy beyond the idea of Cat not making it on camera (which could happen for a lot of reasons) as part of a global protest against the deck.

This exists:

WOTC very much wants to find reasons to pretend the combo isn't a problem.

 

[charlequin]

Isn't that what the Planechase sets are all about?

Yeah, PC is basically what they came up with as a replacement for the vibe of Enchant Worlds.

I said the design space, not the actual original design (which as you say, does nothing generally). But it feels like they didn't really "push" enchantments in the enchantment block anywhere near as much as they have artifacts in the artifact blocks.

Once again the foolishness of making an enchantment block that isn't an enchantment block rears its head.

 

[Wulfric]

Kinda sad to hear, but also heartwarming, that Christopher Moeller is stepping away from Magic. He just upload this video on his channel. According to Gatherer, he has done artwork for over 251 cards in nearly 20 years, including the newer Lightning Bolt, Umezawa's Jitte, and Chris Pikula's Meddling Mage. Wishing him the best of luck on future personal work.

 

[Ashodin]

Any (serious) thoughts on how to get Hedron Alignment out quicker? Diabolic Tutor for it?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Once again the foolishness of making an enchantment block that isn't an enchantment block rears its head.

Theros was a Devotion block for Constructed, but it was 100% an Enchantment block for Limited.

 

[Firemind]

Theros was a Devotion block for Constructed, but it was 100% an Enchantment block for Limited.

Well yeah when they make enchantments into creatures. Might as well make creatures out of instants and sorceries at this point and call it a set.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Well yeah when they make enchantments into creatures. Might as well make creatures out of instants and sorceries at this point and call it a set.

You're underselling Bestow (which was really clever and a lot of fun to play with), but I do get the point.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Is LSV not doing any Limited reviews this week?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Is LSV not doing any Limited reviews this week?

He no longer works on any kind of timetable - he used to try and finish them by the prerelease, but now he mostly just gets to them whenever he does.

Any (serious) thoughts on how to get Hedron Alignment out quicker? Diabolic Tutor for it?

This deck is missing the sauce. Add:

4 Dovin Baan

 

[charlequin]

Kinda sad to hear, but also heartwarming, that Christopher Moeller is stepping away from Magic. He just upload this video on his channel. According to Gatherer, he has done artwork for over 251 cards in nearly 20 years, including the newer Lightning Bolt, Umezawa's Jitte, and Chris Pikula's Meddling Mage. Wishing him the best of luck on future personal work.

Can't blame someone who's done 250+ illos over 19 years for deciding to go off in a different direction. Pretty cool to do a video like this though and let fans know.

Theros was a Devotion block for Constructed, but it was 100% an Enchantment block for Limited.

Right, that's my point. It both is and isn't, so a lot of potentially interesting stuff didn't get explored since they had this high concept that insisted it wasn't "really" an enchantment block.

 

[Infinite Stars]

The funniest part for me is that the card that gave White Devotion a payoff was both A(Not in Theros Block and B)Had no mention of devotion.

Like, Master of Waves, Mogis Maruader, Gary, etc all were great payoffs for devotion as ETB effects in the colours that hillariously have the least number of Permanents, while GW got Karametra's Acolyte Nylea's Disciple/Evangel of Heliod, none of which really were as good as the 3 above

Granted, Fleecemane Lion was pushed AF, but it's just humorous to me.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Doesn't Mark Poole randomly still do art sometimes for MTG

 

["God's Beard!"]

Mangle doesn't mingle, you guys are dissmissing the beast of standard.

 

[Ashodin]

I did write the word serious you know

 

[traveler]

Kinda sad to hear, but also heartwarming, that Christopher Moeller is stepping away from Magic. He just upload this video on his channel. According to Gatherer, he has done artwork for over 251 cards in nearly 20 years, including the newer Lightning Bolt, Umezawa's Jitte, and Chris Pikula's Meddling Mage. Wishing him the best of luck on future personal work.

I love his stuff, so yeah, this is sad to hear. Glad he let us know and best wishes for the future though