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[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I played turn 1 doomsday last weekend and I dindn't even need sol ring or mana crypt, just all my hand to play a turn 0 gemstone caverns xiling a land, mystical tutor for a black card, play a chrome mox imprinting the black card and fetching a watery grave with misty rainforest.

People just scooped.

 

[Giant Panda]

I played turn 1 doomsday last weekend and I dindn't even need sol ring or mana crypt, just all my hand to play a turn 0 gemstone caverns xiling a land, mystical tutor for a black card, play a chrome mox imprinting the black card and fetching a watery grave with misty rainforest.

People just scooped.

Yeah, that sounds like it wasn't fun at all.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I played turn 1 doomsday last weekend and I didn't even need sol ring or mana crypt

Given the mana cost of Doomsday and the mana production of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, this is not at all surprising.

 

[Daedardus]

You're telling me people actually want to pay all the time to play the game at a base level? And that you have to pay to keep up with EDH somehow?

Shifting doesn't mean you have to completely re-buy a deck. Even banning twin doesn't negate owning the tarns, vents, snapcasters and the like. A competitive player WILL spend more money over time on standard then they will on modern. Never mind that you're completely ignoring the EDH side of the equation.

People who play at the base level don't care about either Modern or Standard, they just buy into a fun deck. And tell that to the players playing Infect that they don't have to re-buy a deck . Even rebuilding Twin into Nahiri Jeskai costed quite a bit, like I said and that you reiterated is that the staples will always be there, but you'll spend a bit of money on new cards or different decks. Standard players also usually get most of their cards from playing limited a lot.

The reason why Modern is pretty great and Standard has shrinked a bit has nothing to do wtih the monetary value, it's mostly about how fun the formats are to play in. Which was not a lot for Standard. I don't factor in EDH in the equation since it's a completely different playfield.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah, that sounds like it wasn't fun at all.

it was fun to do and low effort to start a new game. I benched Zur after we switched to less degenerate decks.
Got a couple good games in with my Boros ladies afterwards. Oketra's monument is also fantastic in EDH it turns out.

Given the mana cost of Doomsday and the mana production of Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, this is not at all surprising.

but they do pay signets and rocks that make black mana.

 

[charlequin]

so state of standard and month of the year had no impact on attendance?

I'm saying that I'm confident they're being honest that the specific promo each month doesn't move the needle and that trying to come up with some elaborate explanation for how they're secretly lying about that is ridiculous. Standard being pretty much objectively shitty for 2+ years is much more significant than tweaking rewards at the margins for store-level OP programs. (Not to mention that like most of people's ridiculous WotC conspiracy theories, this one doesn't make any sense unless your axiom is that they want to screw players over purely out of cackling evil.)

Standard, in any iteration across any card game, only exists because the rights holder wants to enforce it (plenty of reasons why they would want to).

Standard's been popular among players since its inception because it's cheaper to buy into, it has a rapidly shifting metagame, it lets you play extensively with the cards that are new, and it runs at a pace that makes games more interactive. Periods where Standard is bad and tournament attendance declines almost always correspond directly to failures in these categories: times when a broken card makes the metagame stagnant, or where all the decks are made of cards from an eighteen-month-old set, or when a mistake leaves Standard decks double their usual price. When the format is open and reasonably priced it takes very little effort to get people to play Standard.

EDH actively undermines wizard's ability to force people to play standard.

I just don't see how this is the case when nothing about it (save the lowest possible level of "being a Magic format") lines up. You might as well say draft keeps WotC from being able to push Standard because it's technically another way to play Magic.

Making EDH sanctioned and bringing into the fold under WOTC I think is better for the game long term.

I don't get how this is supposed to work. It's a fundamentally multiplayer format, which you can't sanction effectively for a variety of reasons. Games take a long time and aren't amenable to best-X-out-of-Y. Eliminating the core balance problems would involve a massive change to the format rules that'd cut against its existing popularity. Even with all that taken care of, the second it becomes competitive you have to deal with the fact that it plays with the Legacy cardpool and there's tons of stuff like Tabernacle that's entirely inaccessible.

You're telling me people actually want to pay all the time to play the game at a base level?

Literally the core premise of MTG is that it's a game you pay all the time to play at a base level.

 

[blindrocket]

what's a tutor and what isn't?

Now that's a slippery slope.

What? Why? Is he too aggressive?

Who, which one?

 

[Imperfected]

To be honest I'd probably just not play at all if EDH wasn't an option. I'm not saying I'm a representative sample of the card-buying audience, but I do buy a lot of cards and do a lot of Drafts/Prereleases that I would have a lot more trouble justifying if I had no outlet to use the cards. (And no, I would not magically get interested in Standard.)

 

[Card Boy]

To be honest I'd probably just not play at all if EDH wasn't an option.

This, EDH is what actually what got me into Magic. Pauper is starting to get traction in my area as well which is awesome.

I don't have an interest in spending hundreds of dollars on a super competitive Modern deck or have to keep all the time standard. EDH is great the precon decks are good on their own and they have cheap upgrade options or you can pull them apart completely to build other decks. Also you only need 1 of a card instead of having to chase a playset.

 

[Ashodin]

I hear someone is talkin' shit about Nahiri Equipment EDH in here

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I hear someone is talkin' shit about Nahiri Equipment EDH in here

I only shit talked it in person recently

Now that's a slippery slope.

but one not discussed enough. Land ramp is a major part of what makes green strong in EDH, banning tutors punishes green to a much lesser extent than other colours since cards like cultivate are generally exempt from calls of such.

Can I play Into the North but only if my deck doesn't contain Dark Depths?

 

[hermit7]

I hear someone is talkin' shit about Nahiri Equipment EDH in here

Well if only mono white in edh was any good, but alas it probably

Spoiler

actually is

the worse color combination in edh followed closely behind Boros and mono red.

EDH is great and essentially the only format I play (some modern and a bit of legacy). The social nature of the format really makes it fun to play. Though I am always up for a good competitive game people just need to make the distinction about how they want to play. If you're the only one playing competitively then don't be upset that you're being targeted.

I guess that is the biggest issue is that while it's meant to be casual people tend to take advantage of newer players and turn them off the game a bit.

 

[Korgill]

This, EDH is what actually what got me into Magic. Pauper is starting to get traction in my area as well which is awesome.

I don't have an interest in spending hundreds of dollars on a super competitive Modern deck or have to keep all the time standard. EDH is great the precon decks are good on their own and they have cheap upgrade options or you can pull them apart completely to build other decks. Also you only need 1 of a card instead of having to chase a playset.

I am the same, the social aspect of drafts and prereleases are only worth so much to me. Plus I don't like to sell cards so if there isn't a point for the cards beyond the one game I won't go.

 

[charlequin]

 

[Poppy]

Well if only mono white in edh was any good, but alas it probably

Spoiler

actually is

the worse color combination in edh followed closely behind Boros and mono red.

EDH is great and essentially the only format I play (some modern and a bit of legacy). The social nature of the format really makes it fun to play. Though I am always up for a good competitive game people just need to make the distinction about how they want to play. If you're the only one playing competitively then don't be upset that you're being targeted.

I guess that is the biggest issue is that while it's meant to be casual people tend to take advantage of newer players and turn them off the game a bit.

the worst part is all the white card advantage makes people go apeshit and destroy you

play a weathered wayfarer or land tax in mono white and see how fast the table blows you up

 

[Crocodile]

I want to know what the other tribes are in the Commander product this year :/

Chop chop someone with the spoilers/leaks :/

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

the worst part is all the white card advantage makes people go apeshit and destroy you

play a weathered wayfarer or land tax in mono white and see how fast the table blows you up

have you ever tried assembling Brisela?

 

[hermit7]

the worst part is all the white card advantage makes people go apeshit and destroy you

play a weathered wayfarer or land tax in mono white and see how fast the table blows you up

Yeah Mentor of the meek is so good. Casting a creature and paying an additional mana to draw a card too. Way to OP.

And Brisela too! Who doesn't want to waste 3 cards and a bunch of turns to get a 9/7 that can be bounced or disrupted. :

On a serious note though their removal is good, but I would use them as a side color adding literally any other good color (not red) to make it more effective and some of the hate cards are quite good. (Linvala, RiP, etc.)

 

[Ashodin]

I have white counterspells in my Nahiri EDH deck

takes people by surprise

 

[Poppy]

have you ever tried assembling Brisela?

that just seems impossible to me, and i play decks that strongly rely on gilder bairn to function

 

[PsionBolt]

They need to ban Sol Ring and Rhystic Study. As a start. Also if you have a bunch of tutors in your deck you're doing EDH wrong.

Gotta say, I'd play more EDH if every card with the text "search your library" was banned. "Shuffle your library" too, while we're at it.

I'm totally fine with multicolour mana bases becoming way worse and ramp spells mostly dying. It's a highlander format for a reason; you should be punished for greedy deck construction.

 

[Ashodin]

like who expects these out of the white player

I need Mana Tithe as well

 

[Violet_0]

why not just play blue, tho
situational counter spells are bad in Commander. You just want spells that unconditionally counter everything, mana is not really an issue

 

[Ashodin]

why not just play blue, tho
situational counter spells are bad in Commander. You just want spells that unconditionally counter everything, mana is not really an issue

yea but I'm playing white so unconventional spells even while conditional means the player opposite you won't think twice about trying to force out a spell and tap out while doing so because the other blue player is tapped out

 

[hermit7]

yea but I'm playing white so unconventional spells even while conditional means the player opposite you won't think twice about trying to force out a spell and tap out while doing so because the other blue player is tapped out

But other times they are dead cards that don't do anything. And playing white you're already lacking in actual card advantage.

You're taking your own resource as well as one other opponents and you're the one that has the biggest issue in drawing cards. (Much of the time they get the card the next turn anyways). Counters aren't bad but 1 for 1 trades in edh aren't very good if you can't easily replace the card your using or you can't gain some other advantage out of it (monastery mentor type advantages). That is my only issue with them specifically.

 

[Ashodin]

But other times they are dead cards that don't do anything. And playing white you're already lacking in actual card advantage.

You're taking your own resource as well as one other opponents and you're the one that has the biggest issue in drawing cards. (Much of the time they get the card the next turn anyways). Counters aren't bad but 1 for 1 trades in edh aren't very good if you can't easily replace the card your using or you can't gain some other advantage out of it (monastery mentor type advantages). That is my only issue with them specifically.

oh definitely. I just like surprises in normal EDH play. Stuff that makes people go "WTF is THAT"

 

[Firemind]

Gotta say, I'd play more EDH if every card with the text "search your library" was banned. "Shuffle your library" too, while we're at it.

I'm totally fine with multicolour mana bases becoming way worse and ramp spells mostly dying. It's a highlander format for a reason; you should be punished for greedy deck construction.

play stranglehold, blood moon, ruination, back to basics, boil, boiling seas, tsunami, keldon firebombers

 

[Big Icarus]

It's singleton. Trying to make a format that specifically designed to increase variance and slow the game down into a competitive format seems like a bad route to take, both from a gameplay standpoint and a logistical standpoint. Trying to finish a best-of-3 set of EDH games on a normal round timer would lead to a lot of matches going to time, I'd imagine.

Pretty much this point is why they cannot seriously prop up EDH as an officially sanctioned competitive format. If Wizards were to follow the massive interest in the format to the point of focussing on it and promoting multiplayer or even 1v1 Commander as a regular sanctioned event I would likely abandon the game eventually. I just do not see a way to design sets in any cohesive way that incorporate enough cards to feed conventionally constructed decks that could also be balanced for a singleton format.

 

[blindrocket]

Pretty much this point is why they cannot seriously prop up EDH as an officially sanctioned competitive format. If Wizards were to follow the massive interest in the format to the point of focussing on it and promoting multiplayer or even 1v1 Commander as a regular sanctioned event I would likely abandon the game eventually. I just do not see a way to design sets in any cohesive way that incorporate enough cards to feed conventionally constructed decks that could also be balanced for a singleton format.

I know this isn't what you meant, but they are doing it now, on MTGO.
I could honestly see them doing this for paper Magic in the future.

They have a completely different ban list compared to other Commander variants and monitor it closely from what I understand.

 

[MoxManiac]

But other times they are dead cards that don't do anything. And playing white you're already lacking in actual card advantage.

You're taking your own resource as well as one other opponents and you're the one that has the biggest issue in drawing cards. (Much of the time they get the card the next turn anyways). Counters aren't bad but 1 for 1 trades in edh aren't very good if you can't easily replace the card your using or you can't gain some other advantage out of it (monastery mentor type advantages). That is my only issue with them specifically.

You are grossly understating the hilarity and amusement value of mana tithing or artifact blasting someone's spell.

 

[Big Icarus]

I know this isn't what you meant, but they are doing it now, on MTGO.
I could honestly see them doing this for paper Magic in the future.

They have a completely different ban list compared to other Commander variants and monitor it closely from what I understand.

The game of Magic is fundamentally not designed as a singleton format. Entire archetypes, and core balance issues are lost in the transition. Commander is a novelty based on the premise of Magic the Gathering, if it were to become the focus of the game, the game would fundamentally change.

I admittedly don't care for Commander, although I understand its appeal. I would hate to see things like color identity, aggressive play patterning, and synergistic consistent deck construction be sidelined in the game design process because Commander became the dominant format.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The point of EDH is to allow players to justify buying a copy of a sweet, busted, otherwise banned card that's iconic and actually get to play with it.

 

[noquarter]

The point of EDH is to allow players to justify buying a copy of a sweet, busted, otherwise banned card that's iconic and actually get to play with it.

I thought that was the purpose of Vintage.

Always took EDH as the play the crap rares that you open and look cool but aren't viable in any other format format. Them actually recognizing it as a format started the ruin of EDH. Think they make too many cards specifically for it as it is and every new card they design for it just adds to the format being even more competitive.

Guess I'm just a fan of kitchen table EDH.

 

[Imperfected]

As long as you're playing Multiplayer, EDH can be a lot of things to a lot of people, simultaneously and effectively.

If you're playing Duel Commander... well, not so much.

 

[Metroidvania]

The point of EDH is to allow players to justify buying a copy of a sweet, busted, otherwise banned card that's iconic and actually get to play with it.

Nah, IMO that just hastens the race down to the bottom of the 'fun' barrel.

Maybe if it's just a one-off situation, but when they have tutors to have it come up 4 games out of 5, it becomes less about 'what whacky shit's gonna happen' and more 'how many mulligans do I take to make sure I can stop said card'.

Granted, some of that's on the players/table, but it's kind of a general trend I've noticed since Wizards made it official.

I thought that was the purpose of Vintage.

Always took EDH as the play the crap rares that you open and look cool but aren't viable in any other format format. Them actually recognizing it as a format started the ruin of EDH. Think they make too many cards specifically for it as it is and every new card they design for it just adds to the format being even more competitive.

Guess I'm just a fan of kitchen table EDH.

Yeah, EDH is really kinda losing a bit of its luster, though granted, that could just be my local table slowly ramping up over the years.

One person adds a couple of tutors, the next person responds by throwing in jokalhaups, etc... Everything just got super serious super quick.

It becomes less about 'cool junk rares' and more about who's got the cash to spend for the most broken shit. Wizards needs to find a better way to promote 'casual' fun decks and the like.

Whoever brought up that Nahiri precon has the right of it (that deck was teeeeeeeeerrible).

They need to make sure the precons are relatively even, and IMO they need to either bump up the power levels a little in the base product if they're going to keep pushing Commander as a product, or neuter things somwhat, which, let's be real, has no real chance of happening.

 

[hermit7]

I thought that was the purpose of Vintage.

Always took EDH as the play the crap rares that you open and look cool but aren't viable in any other format format. Them actually recognizing it as a format started the ruin of EDH. Think they make too many cards specifically for it as it is and every new card they design for it just adds to the format being even more competitive.

Guess I'm just a fan of kitchen table EDH.

That's the thing though is casual formats are their most popular and played even over standard they are bound to make flashy cards.

That's not the point though they have always made cards for the casual market and cards that did wacky things. Just because they make them now for a defined format doesn't ruin anything about it.

I play mono black as my favorite edh deck, and the vintage cards that I have in the deck (yawgmoths will, necropotence, etc) all do powerful and fun things. There are still shit rares that aren't ever going to be used but edh is about the absolute best shit rares that align with the strategy and archetype that you want to play.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

that just seems impossible to me, and i play decks that strongly rely on gilder bairn to function

I've done it a couple times but it usually just ends up with Bruna in Exile eventually. Angels are pretty good for coming back from the yard.

What? Why? Is he too aggressive?

This is their reasoning

Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder is a strong card. But most problematically: it's a toxic card. It shaped the metagame by removing all fair aggressive decks and most midrange decks. It is focusing the format by losing against mono-blue decks and beating mono-blue decks predators. Banning Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder also allows keeping the very interesting Partner keyword which favours original and exotic deckbuilding. So it's unfortunately time for Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder to leave us.

 

[Maledict]

The rose water podcast on Amonkhet is really good btw, it's excellent to hear stories about design and creative so close to the release of a set. I also much prefer it to his usual card by card analysis which tends to be a bit dry and not that informative.

One thing it does highlight is how the current process *really* forced them into 5 of everything. It's been that way for a while but it's obviously a bit of a struggle for them to break out of that mindset - audience expectations in particular are very geared towards 5 of a thing.

 

[Giant Panda]

The Nahiri precon may have been weak, but I've made a great equipment deck out of her. I haven't been able to similarly salvage Daxos though. Not enough good enchantments, and too many of them are expensive. We need Return to Theros with bigger enchantment matters themes stat!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The Nahiri precon may have been weak, but I've made a great equipment deck out of her. I haven't been able to similarly salvage Daxos though. Not enough good enchantments, and too many of them are expensive. We need Return to Theros with bigger enchantment matters themes stat!

between enchantment creatures, black mana accelaration and similar you can make pretty decent daxos decks, the bummer is that the Orzhov guy is just way better from that precon.

 

[DrArchon]

The Nahiri precon may have been weak, but I've made a great equipment deck out of her. I haven't been able to similarly salvage Daxos though. Not enough good enchantments, and too many of them are expensive. We need Return to Theros with bigger enchantment matters themes stat!

I feel like if you want to make a mono-white equipment deck, you might as well do Sram. At least then you get card draw (a premium in white I might add). Having a PW as a commander is a nice bonus though, but drawing a card for every Arrest, Pacifism, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Swiftfoot Boots you throw out seems really good to me.

Spoiler

I have a foil Sram I got from somewhere. I should really do something with him.

 

[alternade]

I've done it a couple times but it usually just ends up with Bruna in Exile eventually. Angels are pretty good for coming back from the yard.


This is their reasoning

Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder is a strong card. But most problematically: it’s a toxic card. It shaped the metagame by removing all fair aggressive decks and most midrange decks. It is focusing the format by losing against mono-blue decks and beating mono-blue decks predators. Banning Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder also allows keeping the very interesting Partner keyword which favours original and exotic deckbuilding. So it’s unfortunately time for Bruse Tarl, Boorish Herder to leave us.

That's some weak logic for banning him. His ability is good but not backbreaking. I guess once you pair him with U or B he could get dangerous real quick.

 

[bigkrev]

Really good article on the FNM changes by Corbin on Brainburst http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14055&writer=Corbin+Hosler&articledate=7-18-2017

Every Friday night, we have FNM. 40-50 people show up to play either Standard, Legacy or Draft, with plenty of casual Commander play thrown in. Most of these players are regulars who I see at the store week after week and travel with to PPTQs or Grand Prix.

Every Saturday morning, we have a novice league. Some of our more generous players (who are the lifeblood of any LGS), come and help out as we teach new players the game with welcome decks or pre-built “casual Standard” decks to help them learn about the game. By a large margin, these players are typically younger, in some cases just learning the skills needed to even play a game of Magic. This is also where some of our budget brewers or kitchen table players who are used to coming to the store to buy cards but not compete in tournaments end up.

These players have a great time; after all, Magic is a great game.

But they never show up to FNM.

s players learn how to play Magic, they begin to “graduate” our Novice League. So where do they go next?

The reality is many don't go any further, for a very simple reason: there wasn't a clear progression. The only step forward available to them was to come to FNM, and we would encourage them to do so. Drafting is a scary experience for someone who's never done it and doesn't know any of the cards or even possibly the mechanics, so they usually end up at Standard with their – as Blake Rasmussen put it – Cat deck they just built.

So they show up to FNM, and they get paired against a Day 2 Grand Prix player in the first round piloting whatever the best deck at the time is. The Cat player casts Pride Sovereign, and is feeling good. Then two turns later they're dead and at a loss for what happened. Sometimes those players learn from the experience and show up the next week more prepared to battle. But more often, they just go back to having fun with friends at home.

As a store, that's not good for us. After all, as Wizards Play Network materials remind everyone, the number one predictor of a Magic player's lifetime value is whether or not they participate in in-store play. While we created our own intro experience for new players, the step up to the FNM level is so intense it makes the fall-off rate far higher than we would like. In case you're curious, this is why casual Commander has become so massively popular – it's exactly where these players usually end up.

When players enter our Novice League for the first time, they are what Wizards defines as “New Players.” As they “graduate,” they become “Interested Players,” which Wizards defines as players interested in improving and stepping up their game. The FNM regulars? That's what Wizards defines as “Engaged Players.”

A lot of talk about why the change is good, and how horrificly they fucked up the roleout

 

[y2dvd]

Would I be too much of an ahole if I played Wasteland with my Life of the Loam in EDH lol?

 

[bigkrev]

Would I be too much of an ahole if I played Wasteland with my Life of the Loam in EDH lol?

Save $20 and use Strip Mine instead!

 

[OnPoint]

Would I be too much of an ahole if I played Wasteland with my Life of the Loam in EDH lol?

It's a good way to become a target in my playgroup. But I've seen some nasty decks make good use of the combo.

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

they really didn't bother explaining any of the reasons for this move

This is the point to take away from that article. They made a business motivated decision and didn't explain the business reasons for it. Likely because the raw business reasons would paint FNM in a negative light business wise. No party, investor or player, wants to hear that an entrenched flagship program is failing.

 

[Santiako]

Would I be too much of an ahole if I played Wasteland with my Life of the Loam in EDH lol?

Throw in Crucible of Worlds, Ramunap Explorer, Exploration and Strip Mine and you have a stew going.

 

[Poppy]

i am actually really happy with my hour box, because i got an invocation blood moon, (normal) scarab god and locust god. also got a lot of fun rares like a holo fraying sanity and stuff. for a set with questionable value i feel i could not have done much better!

 

[Justin]

The value seems to be in line with Amonkhet although I am not sure if it is because of the new set bump at the moment. Card Kingdom has 12 cards at $5 or more which matches the 12 in Amonkhet. It seems like Abrade at $1 could see a big jump. I think I read that there was at least one copy in 50% of the decks as the SCG open last week.