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[keeblerdrow]

I buy a 20 page binder for every new set (get them for ~$12) and I put 4-of every card in the set into a slot in the binder. Organized by color and then by converted mana cost. It's labor intensive to start, but it helps immensely when I'm brewing.

In other news, why the hell did pre-orders for Sorin double overnight at everywhere buy starcity? It went from ~$11 to ~$25 on tcgplayer, amazon, and channelfireball, but it's still $15 at starcity. I mistrust them juuust enough to see this as a conspiracy.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I buy a 20 page binder for every new set (get them for ~$12) and I put 4-of every card in the set into a slot in the binder. Organized by color and then by converted mana cost. It's labor intensive to start, but it helps immensely when I'm brewing.

In other news, why the hell did pre-orders for Sorin double overnight at everywhere buy starcity? It went from ~$11 to ~$25 on tcgplayer, amazon, and channelfireball, but it's still $15 at starcity. I mistrust them juuust enough to see this as a conspiracy.

Because Sorin is good in Standard and people just assumed he was bad because he's sort of like Lord of Innistrad, I imagine.

 

[kirblar]

Because Sorin is good in Standard and people just assumed he was bad because he's sort of like Lord of Innistrad, I imagine.

The aggressive decks are really, really good right now and it helps break mirrors. I picked up 2 at 11- I just couldn't see playing 3 ever due to him being horrific in multiples.

Also, this set is having a first-wave supply crunch a la Innistrad so stuff is spiking early. Shit is hyper-popular.

 

[Hackworth]

Playing against slow build Abzan is torture someone save me.

 

[Firemind]

This is what I'm going to test once khans is available online:
4 monastery swiftspear
4 battlefield thaumaturge
4 goblin rabblemaster

4 sarkhan, the dragonspeaker

4 lightning strike
4 searing blood
4 howl of the horde
4 arc lightning
4 stoke the flames
1 harness by force

12 mountain
3 island
4 temple of epiphany
4 shivan reef

sb:
2 magma spray
1 fated conflagration
4 satyr firedancer
2 master of waves
2 keranos, god of storms
2 negate
2 disdainful stroke

Bonus grixis list:
2 prognostic sphinx
2 keranos, god of storms

4 thoughtseize
4 bile blight
3 dissolve
4 hero's downfall
3 silence the believers
1 murderous cut
3 anger of the gods
4 steam augury
4 dig through time
1 empty the pits

4 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 temple of deceit
4 temple of malice
4 shivan reef
3 swamp
2 island
2 mountain

sb:
2 magma spray
4 pharika's cure
4 negate
2 master of waves
1 anger of the gods
1 keranos, god of storms
1 ashiok, nightmare weaver

 

["God's Beard!"]

Speaking of starcitygames, I dropped a week's worth of premium to see what all the ram fuss was about, and so far the only thing I've got from these articles is that I should be playing a graveyard deck with Ashen Riders and Endless Obedience.

Tell me something I don't know, SCG Premium. I thought these guys were supposed to be better than me.

 

[kirblar]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131240096]Speaking of starcitygames, I dropped a week's worth of premium to see what all the ram fuss was about, and so far the only thing I've got from these articles is that I should be playing a graveyard deck with Ashen Riders and Endless Obedience.

Tell me something I don't know, SCG Premium. I thought these guys were supposed to be better than me.[/QUOTE]
There's a lot of fluffy stuff early on re constructed because of the PT. Chapin's articles are really good though, because they're kitchen sink thought experiments.

If you go to the Opens you get free premium vouchers- I've got like a year stockpiled, lol.

 

["God's Beard!"]

There's a lot of fluffy stuff early on re constructed because of the PT. Chapin's articles are really good though, because they're kitchen sink thought experiments.

If you go to the Opens you get free premium vouchers- I've got like a year stockpiled, lol.

So they're withholding the best tech from people who pay them specifically to see the best tech?

 

[kirblar]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131240672]So they're withholding the best tech from people who pay them specifically to see the best tech?[/QUOTE]
Happens all the time on free sites- Owen has put up disclaimers in the past that he's avoiding topics because of an upcoming tournament.

The content is good, I just don't think it's worth paying for directly. Just go to more opens.

 

[inthrall]

Just go to more opens

RIP non-americans

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131240096]Speaking of starcitygames, I dropped a week's worth of premium to see what all the ram fuss was about, and so far the only thing I've got from these articles is that I should be playing a graveyard deck with Ashen Riders and Endless Obedience.

Tell me something I don't know, SCG Premium. I thought these guys were supposed to be better than me.[/QUOTE]

None of the pros want to tell anyone what is good so they can try and trick everyone at the PT.

 

[Firemind]

I thought that was common knowledge. PT Khans is like two weeks away.

And here I thought you were a brewer, GB.

 

[Firemind]

quick and dirty ramming bird list. if this doesn't have a favourable matchup against mardu aggro after boarding, then consider my magic license revoked.

4 nyx-fleece ram
3 wingmate roc

4 elspeth, sun's champion

4 thoughtseize
2 last breath
1 bile blight
4 hero's downfall
4 abzan charm
2 read the bones
2 utter end
2 silence the believers
2 murderous cut
2 end hostilities

4 windswept heath
4 temple of silence
1 temple of malady
1 temple of plenty
4 sandsteppe citadel
4 caves of koilos
4 swamp
3 plains
1 forest

sb:
4 pharika's cure
4 siege rhino
2 drown in sorrow
2 deicide
2 last breath
1 erebos, god of the dead

 

["God's Beard!"]

I thought that was common knowledge. PT Khans is like two weeks away.

And here I thought you were a brewer, GB.

It's because I'm a brewer at my curiosity got the best of me. I kept hearing Ram + Roc is the new god combo. But it's pretty much a stock B/W midrange list with mainboard Rams. I had already brewed up the exact same mainboard with Bloodsoaked Champions instead of the Rams. Rams are cooler, though.

 

[Firemind]

Why would a stock b/w midrange list ever want bloodsoaked champion? :lol

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131253335]It's because I'm a brewer at my curiosity got the best of me. I kept hearing Ram + Roc is the new god combo. But it's pretty much a stock B/W midrange list with mainboard Rams. I had already brewed up the exact same mainboard with Bloodsoaked Champions instead of the Rams. Rams are cooler, though.[/QUOTE]

Its because the weakness of Wingmate Roc is that its Raid trigger is conditional. The idea is that you could just attack with a Ram instead because very few things can kill it. Its kind of meh-tech from what i see.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why would a stock b/w midrange list ever want bloodsoaked champion? :lol

To trigger the Roc. Obviously the Ram is better.

Its because the weakness of Wingmate Roc is that its Raid trigger is conditional. The idea is that you could just attack with a Ram instead because very few things can kill it. Its kind of meh-tech from what i see.

Yeah, I get that.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Why am I such a scrub.

I never thought of using Voyaging Satyr to untap come into play tapped lands.

 

[duxstar]

Tell me there's not some deck that just durdles till you can play wingmate roc with nyx fleece rams

 

[Transhuman]

I buy a 20 page binder for every new set (get them for ~$12) and I put 4-of every card in the set into a slot in the binder. Organized by color and then by converted mana cost. It's labor intensive to start, but it helps immensely when I'm brewing.

How do you even get that folder to close? I'm sure if you lay out a playset of all the cards from a set in a 3x3 grid, it'd be thicker than the folder is

 

[Zocano]

I haven't *really* started to sit down and brew some graveyard decks but I'm fairly sure I'm going to want as many fetchlands as I can get, correct?

 

[bigkrev]

Happens all the time on free sites- Owen has put up disclaimers in the past that he's avoiding topics because of an upcoming tournament.

The content is good, I just don't think it's worth paying for directly. Just go to more opens.

I thought the content was good when it was something like 29.99 a year. Ever since they jacked the price up, I cannot justify it with the amount of free stuff (especially since I don't really play Standard)

 

[keeblerdrow]

How do you even get that folder to close? I'm sure if you lay out a playset of all the cards from a set in a 3x3 grid, it'd be thicker than the folder is

Actually, each set only fills about 2/3 of the pages and so you can space them out. It's actually, when filled, almost exactly as thick as the binder. The trick is filling each page so it is stiff and also so that there are no weak spots in the folders that create divots when you pick it up and grip it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Abzan brewers - do you really think the mana is good enough to be maindecking Hero's Downfall even though there's already double-green and double-white spells in the deck? I'm debating whether to move up in terms of Banishing Lights or that. I'm guessing its better to just up the Banishing Lights even though its slower.

 

[inthrall]

Abzan brewers - do you really think the mana is good enough to be maindecking Hero's Downfall even though there's already double-green and double-white spells in the deck? I'm debating whether to move up in terms of Banishing Lights or that. I'm guessing its better to just up the Banishing Lights even though its slower.

I liked them enough to drop out most of the double whites from my lists (bar elspeth, but she comes down at 6 anyway). Having a G/B focus helped tighten the mana consistency as well

 

[Angry Grimace]

I liked them enough to drop out most of the double whites from my lists (bar elspeth, but she comes down at 6 anyway). Having a G/B focus helped tighten the mana consistency as well

In that case, have you considered just maindecking Garruk, Apex Predator then? Garruk is just as good as Elspeth (if not better) at finishing a game.

 

[inthrall]

In that case, have you considered just maindecking Garruk, Apex Predator then? Garruk is just as good as Elspeth (if not better) at finishing a game.

Yep, running two Elspeth and one Garruk seems to play well against midrange for the most part. Its not amazing against some things (butcher of the horde off the top for example) but a turn or two of him and they're probably dead on board

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yep, running two Elspeth and one Garruk seems to play well against midrange for the most part. Its not amazing against some things (butcher of the horde off the top for example) but a turn or two of him and they're probably dead on board

How is Garruk bad against Butcher? Butcher can't kill Garruk if you used a +1 on the turn you brought him in and he kills Butcher if he comes down after him.

Another interesting idea is instead of a Garruk, just run a Duneblast and then run over your opponent with whatever you left on the board.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Abzan brewers - do you really think the mana is good enough to be maindecking Hero's Downfall even though there's already double-green and double-white spells in the deck?

no

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131270213]
no[/QUOTE]

I ended up with 3 Banishing Lights and 2 Murderous Cut (meaning I upped the Lights and dropped one Thoughtseize).

 

[inthrall]

In that case, have you considered just maindecking Garruk, Apex Predator then? Garruk is just as good as Elspeth (if not better) at finishing a game.

How is Garruk bad against Butcher? Butcher can't kill Garruk if you used a +1 on the turn you brought him in and he kills Butcher if he comes down after him.

Oops, hasty reply while concentrating elsewhere, that correct. I was thinking of a game where my opponent had a second one off the top after using his -3 ability

 

["God's Beard!"]

You know what 7-mana spell is better at closing out games than Garruk? Duneblast.

And it still sucks.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131272223]You know what 7-mana spell is better at closing out games than Garruk? Duneblast.

And it still sucks.[/QUOTE]

Says the dude insistent to make Ashen Rider work.

 

[keeblerdrow]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131272223]You know what 7-mana spell is better at closing out games than Garruk? Hornet Queen.

And it still sucks.[/QUOTE]

FTFY.


Temur Planeswalkers. Think it could work?

4x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Genesis Hydra
3x Nissa, Worldwaker
3x Kiora the Crashing Wave
4x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Sarkhan, Dragonspeaker
2x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Polukranos
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Xenagos, God of Revels

4xNykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Temple of Abandon
2x Temple of Mystery
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Mountain
7x Forest

I could probably cut some creatures and go for removal or counters to protect the walkers. This was the same mistake I made when I had made Jund Planeswalkers prior to the pro tour showing of the deck.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Says the dude insistent to make Ashen Rider work.

Have you read the text on Ashen Rider? The card is used to kill Emrakuls, for god's sake.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm never going to like Genesis Hydra outside of mono-green Nykthos decks.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131272886]Have you read the text on Ashen Rider? The card is used to kill Emrakuls, for god's sake.[/QUOTE]

You know what else kills Emrakul?

 

["God's Beard!"]

If you want to get real suspicious of me, I could always break out my mono-black dredge list with 4 Necromancer's Assistants and 4 Brain Maggots in the main.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm just saying, Garruk closes out games mostly as efficiently as Elspeth does. If you're playing a deck like Abzan Midrange that lets you live long enough, its at least an option, particularly out of the board if your opponent is running a ton of Planeswalkers.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I definitely think Garruk is just plain worse than Elspeth. My original version of my Abzan deck had him in it and he just doesn't do anything with our other cards and he raises the curve for no real advantage.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131273849]I definitely think Garruk is just plain worse than Elspeth. My original version of my Abzan deck had him in it and he just doesn't do anything with our other cards and he raises the curve for no real advantage.[/QUOTE]

Explain how Garruk is "plain worse" than Elspeth. CMC is a valid point, but its going to take some more argument than "I tested and he was bad"

 

["God's Beard!"]

Explain how Garruk is "plain worse" than Elspeth. CMC is a valid point, but its going to take some more argument than "I tested and he was bad"

His +1 to make a creature is a slower clock than Elspeth or Nissa. Especially Nissa, who kills your opponent two turns after you play her.
His minus 3 only kills one creature instead of sweeping every Stormbreath Dragon/Polukranos in play.
Getting him out on turn 3 is impossible, getting him out on turn 4 is highly unlikely.
His only advantage over our other planeswalkers is that he kills planeswalkers and that's not a problem we're hugely concerned with.
He gets less advantage from being on the field with our support planeswalkers, Sorin and Ajani MoH. Ajani turns Elspeth soldiers into an army of 2/2s to brick aggro and Sorin turns them into Children of Night. Making a Soul of Innistrad every turn is cute, but it still only blocks one creature.
The main thing is really the mana cost. The math just doesn't work out when it comes to ramping into him. It takes the same number of turns to ultimate him as Elspeth, but because he's worse at protecting himself and comes out later you're not as likely to get there. His tokens trade a lot better, but he struggles to ultimate a lot more.

Basically if you think Genesis Hydra is too slow, and Nissa is too goodstuff, Garruk gets both of those problems.

 

[y2dvd]

Elspeth +1 gives you constant blockers against aggro and her -3 wipes out fatties at a cheaper cmc.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Elspeth +1 gives you constant blockers against aggro and her -3 wipes out fatties at a cheaper cmc.

I don't get why you'd rely on Elspeth to be meaningful against aggro. Aggro decks are losing if you even get to cast Elspeth.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You can't get Elspeth out on Turn 3 either unless you're playing with Black Lotus.

• Forest + Elvish Mystic
• White land + caryatid + elvish mystic
• land + elspeth

Rare, but not unthinkable. Maybe 1 in 8 games or so the possibility comes up.

 

[Firemind]

1/8

bwahahaha stop you're killing me

 

["God's Beard!"]

1/8

bwahahaha stop you're killing me

I mean having three mana dorks available not actually having that sequence. I don't really know a whole lot about the math but I know that having one of any 4-of in a deck is about 39% so drawing three out of 8 in 10-13% of games doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's super fuzzy though.

I don't know the exact numbers, but I played around 50 games over the weekend and had about half a dozen games where I was able to produce six mana on turn three which seems to line up with my rough estimates.

I suppose that you could cast Garruk on turn three if you drew all four mystics within the first 9 cards on the draw, but that must be incredibly more unlikely. I know that in poker drawing a 4 of a kind only happens less than 1% of games, but that's in a smaller deck than MTG and only counts the opening 5-card hand. Again, I don't really know. I've only drawn all 4 mystics in one actual game, and that was by like turn 5 or 6.

 

[Firemind]

I played Fires back in the day and mana dork > fires > blastoderm > saproling burst happened about 1/8 of the time, on the play, maybe (less). Yours requires 3 mana dorks out of 8, in a specific order, in a three colour deck with tapped lands. I'm no mathematician, so I can't be bothered to calculate the actual odds, but that scenario seems highly optimistic, even on the draw.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I played Fires back in the day and mana dork > fires > blastoderm > saproling burst happened about 1/8 of the time, on the play, maybe (less). Yours requires 3 mana dorks out of 8, in a specific order, in a three colour deck with tapped lands. I'm no mathematician, so I can't be bothered to calculate the actual odds, but that scenario seems highly optimistic, even on the draw.

Drawing 2 mystics in the first 8 cards happens about 27% and you get a Caryatid about 53% of the time in the first 8 cards. That's still about 14% of games that you get 2 mystics and a caryatid. I'm set up to cast Elvish Mystic in 90% of games that it's available according to Frank Karsten's(far superior to mine) math.

So even conservatively I can set up 6 mana a little over 10% of games by turn three.

edit: math

double edit: anyway, my point is about castability of Garruk, Apex Predator. In Grimace's deck, he has 25 lands and 4 mana dorks. At 42% of his deck being land, he'll have on average 5.8 lands in play by turn 7 and 80% to have been able to cast a Caryatid by turn 6. That means on average he's going to have 6.67 mana on turn 7. Seems slow to me since a significant portion of your matches you won't even be able to cast it that late into the game.

Even in my deck with 8 accelerants I'm on average 6.8 mana by turn 6 to cast elspeth. I'll be able to cast it a little ahead of time more often than not, but it's still not a fast card.


anyway, it's just a rough estimate

 

[pelicansurf]

FTFY.


Temur Planeswalkers. Think it could work?

4x Elvish Mystic
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Courser of Kruphix
4x Genesis Hydra
3x Nissa, Worldwaker
3x Kiora the Crashing Wave
4x Xenagos, the Reveler
2x Sarkhan, Dragonspeaker
2x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Polukranos
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Xenagos, God of Revels

4xNykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Temple of Abandon
2x Temple of Mystery
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Mountain
7x Forest

I could probably cut some creatures and go for removal or counters to protect the walkers. This was the same mistake I made when I had made Jund Planeswalkers prior to the pro tour showing of the deck.

I love this deck. I'd probably nix a polukranos and a Xenagos, maybe a genesis hydra too for 3x Knuckleblade.

 

[bigkrev]

Drawing 2 mystics in the first 8 cards happens about 27% and you get a Caryatid about 53% of the time in the first 8 cards. That's still about 14% of games that you get 2 mystics and a caryatid. I'm set up to cast Elvish Mystic in 90% of games that it's available according to Frank Karsten's(far superior to mine) math.

So even conservatively I can set up 6 mana a little over 10% of games by turn three

Actually, getting 2 or more Elves in your top 8 cards is actually closer to 8%. You can use a Hypergeometric calculator to solve this