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[Angry Grimace]

How do you guys determine if you're going to take a mulligan? Do you just set specific criteria given your deck, or do you just on the fly determine if you're going to curve out?

 

[Haly]

If you know your deck well enough, you should be able to quickly judge whether a hand is "keepable". I think that just comes from experience with piloting that specific deck. Other factors include the deck the other player is using, but this applies only after Round 1, obviously.

 

["God's Beard!"]

How do you guys determine if you're going to take a mulligan? Do you just set specific criteria given your deck, or do you just on the fly determine if you're going to curve out?

Depends on the deck. I have criteria for bogles but for standard it depends on the matchup and sequencing.

 

[Kipe]

Anyone use Puca Trade? I just signed up for an account, got some bonus points for creating an account, and made a Want list, and someone already snatched my points to send me some cards I asked for. Wondering if it's worthwhile in the long run?

Trading in cards for points is difficult. Adding in your card collection into the site is a lot of work. There are way more sellers than buyers and not enough users in general. Once you get points sometimes the cards people send you aren't in NM condition like they're supposed to be.

Despite the problems I still use it because I'm kind of tired of trading with people offline. Too much effort and annoying dealing with other traders sometimes. Which I'm guilty of also. I also feel like I get rid of more cards that would be sitting in binder wasting away in value if I didn't use Pucatrade.

I'm a new player so I don't really have wide selection and I mostly earn cards through drafts so it's not deep either. You might have a different experience.

 

[Angry Grimace]

If you know your deck well enough, you should be able to quickly judge whether a hand is "keepable". I think that just comes from experience with piloting that specific deck. Other factors include the deck the other player is using, but this applies only after Round 1, obviously.

The criteria I use for my aggro deck is a weird contrast to the decidedly midrange deck I'm building for Khans standard.

 

[Transhuman]

Depends on how many lands your deck needs to go off, what colours you need and which you have, whether you're on the play or draw, whether you're running mana dorks and/or draw spells, whether this is the first, second, or third game, what deck your opponent is running, is it fast, how susceptible it is to disruption, do you have that disruption, about a hundred other things.

 

[Haly]

Well, aggro decks can't afford to sit on their asses. Midrange? Yeah you can spend T1/T2 just twiddling your thumbs. It just varies from deck to deck and meta to meta.

I think, generally speaking, aggro decks care the most about being on curve, while control decks care about meeting mana requirements for their spells. When everyone's running cards with CMCs like 1BB and 1UU, or some gold monstrosity, that's going heavily affect what hands you can confidently keep and which ones you can't.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Man, either they're blowing smoke up our asses, or Wizards R&D is really convinced Empty the Pits is like crazy nightmare good.

 

[kirblar]

Man, either they're blowing smoke up our asses, or Wizards R&D is really convinced Empty the Pits is like crazy nightmare good.

In a year it totally could be.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Playing around with a Temur build for my wife to take to FNM and goddamn is my own Abzan deck fucked by the not-that-uncommon nut draw from that deck where you use Rattleclaw to get Sarkhan/Stormbreath/Knucklebro out on turn 3 swinging.

 

[Zocano]

In a year it totally could be.

I grabbed it cause my goal is to ride a graveyard deck into boredom this standard season. I remember you mentioned it before but what's keeping it down? All the cheap boardwipes that'll kill them? Like Bile Blight and such?

 

[ElyrionX]

I thought Howl of the Horde might have a place in any sort of Modern Burn deck as a 1-3-of, but it really doesn't. It depends on a)Attacking with a creature T4, b) having four mana T4, c) not getting countered & d) losing to Twin when on the draw. I really wanted it to work too, but all my goldfishing and playtesting against my Twin deck says that it's trading consistency for occasional explosiveness. A nine-damage T4 finisher is pretty cool, but it won't work out that way far too often.

I'm more apt to try it out as a win-con in a UR-Twin deck, ala Bolt-Snapcaster-Bolt. I still don't know that it will work out, but I'm willing to try it.

I thought about this too given that I play UWR in Modern. But I've come to the conclusion that it is too conditional and too expensive for what it does. Might as well play Twincast.

 

[ElyrionX]

I just found another neat interaction with Battlefield Thaumaturge.

+

= ???

With a much better mana base, Heroic Jeskai might actually be a thing. Now you might think Launch the Fleet is a more conditional, one-time only Mardu Ascendancy, until I realized it also triggers off tokens. And what better way to do it than the Rabblemeister himself.

2 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Battlefield Forge
3 Shivan Reef
4 Mana Confluence

4 Akroan Crusader
4 Satyr Hoplite
4 Favored Hoplite
4 Battlefield Thaumaturge
4 Phalanx Leader
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

4 Coordinated Assault
4 Launch the Fleet
4 Gods Willing
4 Dragon Mantle

Hmmm. This is very interesting. Your decklist is suboptimal, IMO. I'd remove Akroan Crusader and the other cantrips. Polymorphous Rush, Phalanx Formation and Hour of Need all seem to fit better. High Sentinel of Arashin seem like another suitable wincon for the deck. Only thing is, the deck seems to be quite reliant on resolving Battlefield Thaumaturge.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I grabbed it cause my goal is to ride a graveyard deck into boredom this standard season. I remember you mentioned it before but what's keeping it down? All the cheap boardwipes that'll kill them? Like Bile Blight and such?

Thoughtseize. You have to hold it so long before you can cast it effectively that it's going to get exposed to Thoughtseize almost every game.

 

[Firemind]

Hmmm. This is very interesting. Your decklist is suboptimal, IMO. I'd remove Akroan Crusader and the other cantrips. Polymorphous Rush, Phalanx Formation and Hour of Need all seem to fit better. High Sentinel of Arashin seem like another suitable wincon for the deck. Only thing is, the deck seems to be quite reliant on resolving Battlefield Thaumaturge.

Only Launch the Fleet benefits from Thaumaturge and it's cheap enough to cast without it. The deck runs twenty lands, so four mana cost cards that aren't Stoke the Flames have no place in it unfortunately.

 

[bigkrev]

How do you guys determine if you're going to take a mulligan? Do you just set specific criteria given your deck, or do you just on the fly determine if you're going to curve out?

I'm terrible at mulligans, unless they are of the blatently obvious variety (6 land hand as aggro, no land hands, ect). The only deck I feel confident in my mulligan decision making is Modern Affinity- I auto mulligan any hand that does not have at least 1 "action" card (Master of Etherium/Cranial Plating/Archbound Ravager/Steel Overseer/matchup dependent Etched Champion), any hand that cannot goldfish by turn 5 against an unknown deck, and any hand where Glimmervoid is my only land, even if it can cast every spell in the hand.

 

[Zocano]

I'm probably gonna run that UR Artifact deck with the Rabblemasters that was posted on SCG this friday cause I won't have my preordered cards for another week (and I'd like to pick up fetches for graveyard galore, too).

 

[phazedplasma]

@godsbeard, whats your bogles deck?

 

[ultron87]

I've become a person who collects a specific card. I want all the foil Illusory Angels.

 

[bigkrev]

The Shocklands I need (Breeding Pools, Stomping Grounds, Temple Gardens) are now all around 8 bucks on TCGPlayer. Should I wait for them to go even lower, or is this the floor?

 

[OnPoint]

The Shocklands I need (Breeding Pools, Stomping Grounds, Temple Gardens) are now all around 8 bucks on TCGPlayer. Should I wait for them to go even lower, or is this the floor?

My guess is that this is the floor but you might be able to save like, a dollar a card, if you wait a little bit longer.

 

[keeblerdrow]

This feels like the floor.


Main deck I thought up sitting at my cube!

3x Prognostic Sphinx
4x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Liliana Vess

4x Thoughtseize
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Dissolve
3x Drown in Sorrow
3x Bile Blight
2x Dig Through Time
2x Treasure Cruise
2x Divination
1x Dead Drop

4x Polluted Delta
4x Temple of Deceit
10x Swamp
8x Island


Seems solid, but it feels like it needs help. I had thought about adding white for Last Breath, Elspeth, and End Hostilities. Any comments?

 

["God's Beard!"]

^Aetherspouts for the Ashiok god combo

Playing around with a Temur build for my wife to take to FNM and goddamn is my own Abzan deck fucked by the not-that-uncommon nut draw from that deck where you use Rattleclaw to get Sarkhan/Stormbreath/Knucklebro out on turn 3 swinging.

Land+Elvish Mystic, Land + Rattleclaw + Stormbreath? Nice 5 card combo bro

@godsbeard, whats your bogles deck?

Rainbow Bogles

Creature (11)

• 4x Gladecover Scout
• 4x Slippery Bogle
• 3x Invisible Stalker

Enchantment (25)

• 4x Ethereal Armor
• 4x Rancor
• 3x Hyena Umbra
• 3x Spider Umbra
• 1x Spirit Link
• 4x Daybreak Coronet
• 4x Madcap Skills
• 2x Suppression Field

Land (19)

• 3x City of Brass
• 4x Mana Confluence
• 4x Gemstone Mine
• 4x Horizon Canopy
• 4x Razorverge Thicket

Instant (5)

• 2x Boros Charm
• 3x Path to Exile

Sideboard (15)

• 1x Grafdigger's Cage
• 4x Inquisition of Kozilek
• 4x Leyline of Sanctity
• 1x Path to Exile
• 3x Stony Silence
• 2x Suppression Field

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131468231]^Aetherspouts for the Ashiok god combo



Land+Elvish Mystic, Land + Rattleclaw + Stormbreath? Nice 5 card combo bro
[/QUOTE]

It happens a lot more than you'd think, mostly because you need them over your first five turns and you can use Sarkhan, Stormbreath or Knucklebro to start swinging. The first two are obviously better though since they're harder to kill.

 

[Lucario]

I've become a person who collects a specific card. I want all the foil Illusory Angels.

Start now, and you'll probably end up with a ridiculously expensive collection in a few years. Foil angels defy pricing logic.



EDIT: Fuck! Tempest block drafts were only happening for a week? I didn't even get to use up all my packs =\

At least I get to play triple innistrad again...

 

["God's Beard!"]

It happens a lot more than you'd think, mostly because you need them over your first five turns and you can use Sarkhan, Stormbreath or Knucklebro to start swinging. The first two are obviously better though since they're harder to kill.

Glad to see you've come around on the issue.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131469812]Glad to see you've come around on the issue.[/QUOTE]

Elspeth on turn 3 is kind of ridiculous though. You only have 2 Elspeth in most decks.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Elspeth on turn 3 is kind of ridiculous though. You only have 2 Elspeth in most decks.

Sure, I'm really trying to hit it on turn 4 when it's in my hand anyway. Turn three most of the time I just start chaining Rhinos and Rocs.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131470319]Sure, I'm really trying to hit it on turn 4 when it's in my hand anyway. Turn three most of the time I just start chaining Rhinos and Rocs.[/QUOTE]

At this rate I'm gonna have to write a God's Beard x Elvish Mystic fanfic to go along with the Snapcaster Mage x Ash Zealot one. With Genesis Hydra as the jealous hypotenuse to the love triangle.

 

[bigkrev]

Start now, and you'll probably end up with a ridiculously expensive collection in a few years. Foil angels defy pricing logic.



EDIT: Fuck! Tempest block drafts were only happening for a week? I didn't even get to use up all my packs =

At least I get to play triple innistrad again...

They are doing triple Innistrad instead of DKA? I'm impressed!

 

["God's Beard!"]

At this rate I'm gonna have to write a God's Beard x Elvish Mystic fanfic to go along with the Snapcaster Mage x Ash Zealot one. With Genesis Hydra as the jealous hypotenuse to the love triangle.

I just don't get it. Do you know how many hands I would have had to mulligan if Elvish Mystic was literally anything else? Forest Mystic Caryatid stuff is a keepable hand in a lot of matchups. Elvish Mystic sends the consistency of my deck over the top and that's important when I'm playing a bunch of 5- and 6-mana cards.

I side out some number of Caryatids along with my top end against MBA but keep the Mystics because they trade with Savannah Lions and Mardu Skullhunters. This lets me resolve my Rhinos and Arbor Colossi without being dead to Mogis' Maurader.

Again, there are ways to avoid drawing thoughtseizes and elvish mystics at the end of the game, but the only way to avoid slow hands is to play more low drops.

 

[kirblar]

They are doing triple Innistrad instead of DKA? I'm impressed!

Been that way for a while, they know people don't like DKA.

 

[bigkrev]

Been that way for a while, they know people don't like DKA.

When they do ChK block, do they do ChK-ChK-BoK or do they force SoK on people?

Because I'm totally reinstalling MTGO the next time they do ChK if it's ChK-ChK-Bok. My favorite limited format ever

 

[Firemind]

You do realize Mystic isn't always going to stick, right? :lol

I've won many games where the opponent starts with turn one mana critter and gets stuck with two lands after I kill it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You do realize Mystic isn't always going to stick, right? :lol

I've won many games where the opponent starts with turn one mana critter and gets stuck with two lands after I kill it.

You did read the part where I said "some matchups" right? I'm not ignorant of the history of birds and burn spells.

 

[ElyrionX]

Only Launch the Fleet benefits from Thaumaturge and it's cheap enough to cast without it. The deck runs twenty lands, so four mana cost cards that aren't Stoke the Flames have no place in it unfortunately.

Yeah fair point. I thought the mana base was kind of iffy. You going to test this?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Been that way for a while, they know people don't like DKA.

The last Innistrad flashback was INN-INN-DKA, though. I just assumed they were going for "let's try and make Liliana cheaper." Because the only other expensive card in INN isn't very expensive online (Snapcaster is like 9 tix).

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131471708]I just don't get it. Do you know how many hands I would have had to mulligan if Elvish Mystic was literally anything else? Forest Mystic Caryatid stuff is a keepable hand in a lot of matchups. Elvish Mystic sends the consistency of my deck over the top and that's important when I'm playing a bunch of 5- and 6-mana cards.

I side out some number of Caryatids along with my top end against MBA but keep the Mystics because they trade with Savannah Lions and Mardu Skullhunters. This lets me resolve my Rhinos and Arbor Colossi without being dead to Mogis' Maurader.

Again, there are ways to avoid drawing thoughtseizes and elvish mystics at the end of the game, but the only way to avoid slow hands is to play more low drops.[/QUOTE]

I think you're overestimating how important it is to have a fast hand. You have so much lifegain in this deck that its going to be very difficult for aggro to run over you even if all you do is drop Sandsteppe Citadel turn one and Caryatid or Fleecemane turn 2. You're just taking out spots in the deck that could be more useful to you late game.

Moreover, Mystic is a lot less useful to you in a three-color deck in an environment that doesn't have shocklands in it because Fetchlands are a significantly less good source of mana fixing.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The last Innistrad flashback was INN-INN-DKA, though. I just assumed they were going for "let's try and make Liliana cheaper." Because the only other expensive card in INN isn't very expensive online (Snapcaster is like 9 tix).

Yeah, the card is like $80 right on MTGO. She was at $100 before they announced Triple Innistrad drafts were coming back. Shit's ridiculous.

 

[Firemind]

Yeah fair point. I thought the mana base was kind of iffy. You going to test this?

Yeah, once Khans is on MTGO. It's relatively cheap to build anyway. At least I hope it will be lol. Fetches are going to spike in the first few weeks I imagine.

 

[Angry Grimace]

So you admit it's bad in some matchups.

I think what people are trying to say is it makes your deck worse in a number of matchups. You can't run 26 lands and 4 elves and 4 caryatids, so you have to make concessions and realize you're going to lose a number of games where you're mana screwed because you're land light and your elves are in the bin.

To illustrate, its not that hard to get color screwed in a format that has no untapped duals. In RTR-THS, this is a good hand:

turning it into a THS-KTK hand, you're now color screwed.

 

[OnPoint]

They are doing triple Innistrad instead of DKA? I'm impressed!

This makes me sad for one reason: Loyal Cathar is incredible in high numbers. We did back to back drafts once where we pulled 8 and 7 Loyal Cathars. Won the first one, did the finals in the second and almost pulled it out in game 3.

 

[SigmasonicX]

turning it into a THS-KTK hand, you're now color screwed.

Huh? That hand seems fine to me. Windswepth Heath to get a Forest, then cast Elvish Mystic. Next turn, Island then Courser of Kruphix, and you'll probably get another land at some point.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I think you're overestimating how important it is to have a fast hand. You have so much lifegain in this deck that its going to be very difficult for aggro to run over you even if all you do is drop Sandsteppe Citadel turn one and Caryatid or Fleecemane turn 2. You're just taking out spots in the deck that could be more useful to you late game.

This is just false, because I have Elvish Mystic and 4 thoughtseize and I still have more 5+mana spells than you do. It's the mid-game that I'm going light on. And if I did cut Mystic, it would be to add to playsets of cards I'm already using(probably +1 plains, +1 banishing light, +1 lion, +1 roc), not extra late-game cards.

Moreover, Mystic is a lot less useful to you in a three-color deck in an environment that doesn't have shocklands in it because Fetchlands are a significantly less good source of mana fixing.

That's just not true because the only 3-drop I want to hit on turn two is Courser of Kruphix. I don't use Anafenza in my mainboard. If I play a Citadel turn 1 I can play thoughtseize + mystic turn two and Rhino on turn three.

I explained it before, but I designed my mana base to be able to cast every spell in my deck without mana dorks. The fact that Mystic only adds green is completely irrelevant. These things you're bringing up are good philosophical arguments but don't actually pan out once you start building the deck. It's like mono-color aggro trying to punish painful 3-color mana, it's just not true.

I have more trouble playing Bile Blight into Brimaz in Brad Nelson's BW midrange deck than I do playing anything in my Abzan deck.

 

[Haly]

you'll probably get another land at some point.

You can only think like this if you have LSV's topdecking skills.

"I'll draw the land I need eventually" often leads to blowouts. This is why proper mulliganing is so important.

 

[Firemind]

Huh? That hand seems fine to me. Windswepth Heath to get a Forest, then cast Elvish Mystic. Next turn, Island then Courser of Kruphix, and you'll probably get another land at some point.

It's borderline. It's keepable when going in blind, but there are a number of scenarios where you straight up lose because you can't cast your cards.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Huh? That hand seems fine to me. Windswepth Heath to get a Forest, then cast Elvish Mystic. Next turn, Island then Courser of Kruphix, and you'll probably get another land at some point.

Its a three color deck, you don't have access to all your colors. It depends how many white sources you have.

The point isn't whether you'd mull the hand, its that its a dramatically worse hand than the first.

 

[bigkrev]

Huh? That hand seems fine to me. Windswepth Heath to get a Forest, then cast Elvish Mystic. Next turn, Island then Courser of Kruphix, and you'll probably get another land at some point.

If you are on the draw and they Thoughtsieze you turn 1 (taking the elf), you are in a really rough spot.

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131484317]This is just false, because I have Elvish Mystic and 4 thoughtseize and I still have more 5+mana spells than you do. It's the mid-game that I'm going light on. And if I did cut Mystic, it would be to add to playsets of cards I'm already using(probably +1 plains, +1 banishing light, +1 lion, +1 roc), not extra late-game cards.



That's just not true because the only 3-drop I want to hit on turn two is Courser of Kruphix. I don't use Anafenza in my mainboard. If I play a Citadel turn 1 I can play thoughtseize + mystic turn two and Rhino on turn three.

I explained it before, but I designed my mana base to be able to cast every spell in my deck without mana dorks. The fact that Mystic only adds green is completely irrelevant. These things you're bringing up are good philosophical arguments but don't actually pan out once you start building the deck. It's like mono-color aggro trying to punish painful 3-color mana, it's just not true.

I have more trouble playing Bile Blight into Brimaz in Brad Nelson's BW midrange deck than I do playing anything in my Abzan deck.[/QUOTE]

The fact that you have a U shaped mana curve isn't something that particularly makes your deck better. I can't say I particularly understand your burning hatred for three-drops.

 

["God's Beard!"]

You can only think like this if you have LSV's topdecking skills.

"I'll draw the land I need eventually" often leads to blowouts. This is why proper mulliganing is so important.

Getting screwed on land for 1-2 turns is way better than flooding out, though.

 

[Haly]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";131485106]Getting screwed on land for 1-2 turns is way better than flooding out, though.[/QUOTE]

The odds are in your favor when you're flooded than when you're screwed, because every deck has sub <lands, and this before factoring in color requirements.

If you have your mana base going, all you need to do is draw into spells.

If you're missing your mana base, not only do you need draw lands, but the lands have to be of the right type as well.

Doesn't apply to aggro decks, obviously.