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[Hero]

Cheap colorless flier with good P/T and loot ability and they didn't think it would cause problems. Jesus.

 

[OnPoint]

Cheap colorless flier with good P/T and loot ability and they didn't think it would cause problems. Jesus.

It took 1-2 nights of play on Cocatrice for people in here to find it. They really can't be that dense can they?

 

[blindrocket]

Kalitas is that fucking card that annoys the hell out of me

I run two of him in Jund. He is better than Huntmaster in the mirror and Naya Burn is afraid of him.

I managed to open a foil Leovold on release night. Made him into a deck the next day. He's so oppressive and in the perfect colors.

Daaaaamn. Super nice pull. Worth I think around $140.

 

[Infinite Stars]

It took 1-2 nights of play on Cocatrice for people in here to find it. They really can't be that dense can they?

Again, R&D built a deck of 5C Prism Array, and during this design missed both the Degenerate 4/5C mana base of BFZ-Ktk Standard and that the card they deemed "Oppressive" Needed 10 Mana to be actually strong(5 to cast on your turn, 5 to bounce on your opponent's end step once you've tapped down all creatures/if it's going to eat removal.

I think you can say that R&D isn't all there when it comes to testing.

 

[charlequin]

The dev. article from last Friday at least hinted that they were confused by it.

I looked at the article again and that's not really my read. Sam mentions that it was ubiquitous, but he also says that they didn't want the hate people run for this card to also hate out less powerful artifacts. And (aaaagain) pre-PT SCG events are largely meaningless so R&D really shouldn't be reacting to results from that particularly strongly.

I think you can say that R&D isn't all there when it comes to testing.

I mean, this is funny and all, but it's a pretty bad critique if we're trying to take it seriously. They built a deck around a completely different version of this card, based primarily on abusing a different card (Bring to Light), and made changes as a result. They do tons of this every set, with all kinds of cards, many of which never even see print in a state similar to what they were tested as at the time. This isn't a bad thing at all, it's actually a big part of why their Standard testing is even as good as it is.

The four-color manabase was a huge miss, but that's part of a specific systemic issue they have. We talked about this a little before -- because of the volume they test in and the results they optimize for, their process innately undervalues elaborate 3+ color manabases and overvalues mono/dual. They need to find a way to adjust for that, but it's understandable that this never got fully stress-tested until they printed a block with lots of really strong 3-color cards.

I mean there's always room to improve, but I think you have to look at this stuff in the context that there is actually no comparable game anywhere in existence that's tested as extensively for competitive purposes. Development-level problems in Magic are almost alway systemic or procedural in origin, not because they don't test enough or they're "dumb" or "bad" at it.

 

[El Topo]

Isn't it a bit too early to proclaim Copter the end of days?

 

[Yeef]

Again, R&D built a deck of 5C Prism Array, and during this design missed both the Degenerate 4/5C mana base of BFZ-Ktk Standard and that the card they deemed "Oppressive" Needed 10 Mana to be actually strong(5 to cast on your turn, 5 to bounce on your opponent's end step once you've tapped down all creatures/if it's going to eat removal.

I think you can say that R&D isn't all there when it comes to testing.

I think you're off the mark with Prism Array. You don't need 10 mana a turn to make it work. You plop it down on 5 and the other person is forced to either overextend into a board wipe, or sandbag creatures, letting the control player draw more answers. No one's playing out 5 creatures to the board against a control deck; especially in a format where there were 4 different sweepers they could run (Planar Outburst, End Hostilities, Languish and Crux of Fate). With the way the mana bases were at the time, getting to 5 colors on turn 5 would be fairly easy (Jeskai Black did it all the time).

Also, in my experience, Smuggler's Copter is very good, but not terribly oppressive. There's answers to it in just about every color, with blue probably being the worst off. The bigger issue, I think, is that there aren't really any great creature-based finishers for control decks. Planeswalkers tend to be the control-finishers these days, but they're naturally weak to vehicles.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Isn't it a bit too early to proclaim Copter the end of days?

The problem is the lack of available answers to Copter. The best one really is Natural State, which doesn't really hit anything else good.

 

[charlequin]

Isn't it a bit too early to proclaim Copter the end of days?

That's what I'm saying!

The problem is the lack of available answers to Copter. The best one really is Natural State, which doesn't really hit anything else good.

Fragmentize?

 

[aidan]

Isn't it a bit too early to proclaim Copter the end of days?

Well, we already figured out that the new Chandra isn't the second coming of JTMS, so we're onto the next thing.

 

[Angry Grimace]

That's what I'm saying!



Fragmentize?

It has the same problem - it doesn't really hit anything else of value, really. It can hit Aetherworks Marvel, but that's not necessarily a good deck (nor does it prevent the opposing player from activating it) and it doesn't hit any of the Gearhulks, and its Sorcery speed.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Fragmentize?

I'd argue having to main deck a card like that would be indicative of a problematic card.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The problem with just deferring to the PT in order to "fix" the Copter Problem is that its a cheap and powerful card that goes in every deck. That usually results in said card seeing play in basically every deck.

 

[Yeef]

In order for copter to do anything, they have to turn it into a creature. Just about any instant-speed creature removal answers it just fine.

 

[Firemind]

I drafted Kaladesh for the first time tonight and I already lost to two Morphlings and Nissa in two drafts. And it was only the first round. :lol

There really should be cards that can kill PWs at lower rarities. Even red's burn doesn't have the ability to hurt PWs and Nissa starts at 6 (!!) loyalty.

Can we have 8-4 Emmy Moon drafts back, please?

 

[OnPoint]

The problem is the lack of available answers to Copter. The best one really is Natural State, which doesn't really hit anything else good.

Fevered Visions

 

[blindrocket]

the super smug art is alone is worth every penny

#truth

 

[SigmasonicX]

There are also cards like Harnessed Lightning, Unlicensed Disintegration, Essence Extraction, Anguished Unmaking, etc. that can take care of Smuggler's Copter just fine and aren't necessarily sideboard only cards.

Brief Magic appearance on The Simpsons

EDIT: Oh, we've been moved to Community.

 

[Angry Grimace]

That Copter dies to removal isn't exactly news.

The problem is that it dodges sorcery speed removal (including most Wrath effects), constantly gives its controller gas and costs 2 generic mana. There's very little deckbuilding cost to playing Copter beyond playing the requisite number of creatures.

 

[Firemind]

Oh and Mind Control effects really should be able to steal PWs. They're already rare enough. I had Confiscation Coup sitting in hand while Nissa was pummeling me with 5/5 lands. It's ridic.

 

[Infinite Stars]

I mean, this is funny and all, but it's a pretty bad critique if we're trying to take it seriously. They built a deck around a completely different version of this card, based primarily on abusing a different card (Bring to Light), and made changes as a result. They do tons of this every set, with all kinds of cards, many of which never even see print in a state similar to what they were tested as at the time. This isn't a bad thing at all, it's actually a big part of why their Standard testing is even as good as it is.

The four-color manabase was a huge miss, but that's part of a specific systemic issue they have. We talked about this a little before -- because of the volume they test in and the results they optimize for, their process innately undervalues elaborate 3+ color manabases and overvalues mono/dual. They need to find a way to adjust for that, but it's understandable that this never got fully stress-tested until they printed a block with lots of really strong 3-color cards.

I mean there's always room to improve, but I think you have to look at this stuff in the context that there is actually no comparable game anywhere in existence that's tested as extensively for competitive purposes. Development-level problems in Magic are almost alway systemic or procedural in origin, not because they don't test enough or they're "dumb" or "bad" at it.

My big complaint is that even in the Future Future League they had a deck that didn't suck running the 5 colours. They had a block with 3 Colours just before hand, they didn't have any manabase hate, and they had a mechanic that literally rewarded you for being Greedy with mana. Yeah, it barely saw play, but the two relevant Constructed cards that they had it for(Radiant Flames/Bring to Light) both encouraged 3+ Colour Mana bases.

My main issue with Prism Array is that you can't say they didn't expect 3+ colours, because Converge Exists and had cards designed for Constructed. No one would play a 3 Mana "Deal 2 to everything" at sorcery speed, especially not when WotC put a Instant speed colorless version of that with Upside in the next set.

The only way that Converge makes sense as a mechanic is if there's a way to get up to 3+ colors in Standard. You don't build a mechanic that rewards players pushing their Manabase and then suddenly be surprised when they push their mana base. No one would play Painful Truths in a deck that's less then 3 colors when Read the Bones is better.

I think you're off the mark with Prism Array. You don't need 10 mana a turn to make it work. You plop it down on 5 and the other person is forced to either overextend into a board wipe, or sandbag creatures, letting the control player draw more answers. No one's playing out 5 creatures to the board against a control deck; especially in a format where there were 4 different sweepers they could run (Planar Outburst, End Hostilities, Languish and Crux of Fate). With the way the mana bases were at the time, getting to 5 colors on turn 5 would be fairly easy (Jeskai Black did it all the time).

Fair enough, but this is ignoring that tapping out on Turn 5 for an enchantment with Dromoka's Command being the number one removal spell seems like a wash. There's also the fact that Turn 5 Prism Array puts the shields down and that Atarka Red's Go Wide could kill you on the next turn/the turn before if they got the ham draw.

My main point on the Prism Array issue is that worst come to worst, decks have to considering running enchantment removal in it's prior form. Nothing about a 5 mana enchantment that requires 5 colours to get max value, another 5 to bounce, etc seems like it would have been this backbreaking card, especially when Wizards still had a bunch of strong enchantment removal.

 

[Ashodin]

It has the same problem - it doesn't really hit anything else of value, really. It can hit Aetherworks Marvel, but that's not necessarily a good deck (nor does it prevent the opposing player from activating it) and it doesn't hit any of the Gearhulks, and its Sorcery speed.

hence why Skywhaler's shot is the better option.

Playing on a table without sleeves and a playmat

outside

TRIGGERED

Also Unlicensed Disintegration is the nut removal. RB Madness is waaaay better than WR Vehicles (or my WR Equip) because of it. Unconditional removal with insult attached.

Literally Add insult to injury.

Undermine.

 

[Yeef]

Fair enough, but this is ignoring that tapping out on Turn 5 for an enchantment with Dromoka's Command being the number one removal spell seems like a wash. There's also the fact that Turn 5 Prism Array puts the shields down and that Atarka Red's Go Wide could kill you on the next turn/the turn before if they got the ham draw.

My main point on the Prism Array issue is that worst come to worst, decks have to considering running enchantment removal in it's prior form. Nothing about a 5 mana enchantment that requires 5 colours to get max value, another 5 to bounce, etc seems like it would have been this backbreaking card, especially when Wizards still had a bunch of strong enchantment removal.

Prism array's tap ability doesn't cost any mana to activate, so tapping out for it on turn 5 doesn't leave you all that open. If they had enchantment removal, you could still tap down their board for the turn. The other thing to keep in mind is that they don't develop in a vacuum. It's entirely possible that the control decks were dominating FFL and they nerfed a number of pieces to bring it in line. Prism Array is the one we know about.

In any case, copter isn't oppressive and it seems pretty clear that they knew what they were doing when the printed it. They've said, numerous times, that in artifact blocks, they avoid pushing too many colorless artifacts because they can go into any deck. That's why the Gearhulks are colored artifacts. There's no reason to believe that they thought it wouldn't see a lot of play.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Trying to cut blue in the Aetherworks deck:

Deck: R/G Aetherworks

//Lands
4 Aether Hub
9 Forest
4 Game Trail
5 Mountain

//Spells
4 Aetherworks Marvel
4 Attune with Aether
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Harnessed Lightning
3 Kozilek's Return
4 Vessel of Nascency
4 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot

//Creatures
3 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
4 Servant of the Conduit
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

//Sideboard
2 Tormenting Voice
2 Clip Wings
3 Natural State
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Galvanic Bombardment
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

Display deck statistics

Mostly just testing because blue involves playing a lot of bad cards. I don't like Woodweaver's Puzzleknot very much but it does generate enough energy to power the Marvel by itself.

 

[Ashodin]

I think the reason to play blue was to backup the Marvel?

 

[SigmasonicX]

Oh and Mind Control effects really should be able to steal PWs. They're already rare enough. I had Confiscation Coup sitting in hand while Nissa was pummeling me with 5/5 lands. It's ridic.

Couldn't you have spent 0 energy to take control of a land creature? Even if it was tapped and you couldn't attack with it before it stopped being a creature, you'd still be stealing a land.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Couldn't you have spent 0 energy to take control of a land creature? Even if it was tapped and you couldn't attack with it before it stopped being a creature, you'd still be stealing a land.

is 5 mana steal a land even good when you're getting beat down by a 5/5 every turn?

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think the reason to play blue was to backup the Marvel?

Yeah, but all the blue cards are bad, and I can hardcast Emrakul and actually interact with opponent's stuff if I play red.

 

[Ashodin]

Yeah, but all the blue cards are bad, and I can hardcast Emrakul and actually interact with opponent's stuff if I play red.

blue really sucks

 

[Angry Grimace]

blue really sucks

I mean, I feel like this version is less "all-in" while still containing an "I win" combo.

 

[Ashodin]

I mean, I feel like this version is less "all-in" while still containing an "I win" combo.

RG AetherControl. I like it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The version I'm testing right now is slightly different:

Deck: RG Aetherworks Delirium

//Lands
4 Aether Hub
6 Forest
4 Game Trail
8 Mountain

//Spells
4 Aetherworks Marvel
4 Attune with Aether
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Harnessed Lightning
3 Kozilek's Return
4 Vessel of Nascency
4 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot

//Creatures
4 Emrakul, the Promised End
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow
4 Servant of the Conduit

//Sideboard
2 Tormenting Voice
2 Clip Wings
3 Natural State
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Gnarlwood Dryad
4 Galvanic Bombardment
1 Ishkanah, Grafwidow

Display deck statistics

I just beat some dude on the Pummeler deck who said MTGO cost him the game by skipping some step, but I'm baffled at how. I'm guessing he intended to super pump his guy and get through all of my dudes on board plus life gain (I had Ishkanah, her babies, 2 Servants, 2 Woodweaver's Puzzleknots).

 

[Ashodin]

I'm likely going to the PPTQ for Amonkhet this weekend (and possibly SCG Regionals), so I hope to make a splash with my WR Equip deck. I'm testing against the latest lists from SCG right now, GB Delirium is a rough one.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Revolutionary Rebuff is so, so bad. I guess I shouldn't be surprised its so popular though.

 

[blindrocket]

This Temur Summonings looks fun that Saffron Olive is streaming.

EDIT: Until the stream crashed.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Collected Company was over $15 for much of its Standard life.

Regular rare, standard set.

Collected Company has a Modern deck named after it.

 

[Ashodin]

Alright so the weakness of the GB Delirium deck is if they don't get creatures bigger than mine I can removal something good against them. Four Declaration in Stone in the SB is perfect sideboard for Kalitas and other nuisances.

After the first game which was a blowout on their side, they couldn't recover while I SB'd in lots more removal to get my guys and Copter through.

 

[El Topo]

That's what I'm saying!

The people don't care for your highbrow opinions that you tell us with your fancy words, Mr. Eight-Arms, they want a real down-to-earth human kitchen table Magic player that barely plays anymore to tell 'em how it is.
But yeah, I just wanted to reiterate what you had said earlier.

 

[OnPoint]

Collected Company has a Modern deck named after it.

I could see Smugfinity happening... Maybe... Or maybe not.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I could see Smugfinity happening... Maybe... Or maybe not.

a land driving a helicopter is even dumber than vehicles driving vehicles.

 

[OnPoint]

a land driving a helicopter is even dumber than vehicles driving vehicles.

Yet I bet it happens lol

 

[SigmasonicX]

Maybe something with Dryad Arbor?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Bought a couple cards needed for the Temur Summonings deck, it looks fun. Gonna play corrupted grafstones instead of the caravan though.

 

[Ashodin]

a land driving a helicopter is even dumber than vehicles driving vehicles.

Needle Spires driving the copter is just how I beat this session of BantAggro.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Maybe something with Dryad Arbor?

that's actually pretty nice suddenly a fetchland represents a 3/3 flier.

 

[Joba62x]

Does anyone else see Metallurgic Summonings spiking right now?

 

["God's Beard!"]

The problem with a lot of the cards you guys are mentioning to answer Copter is that they cost more mana than Copter does. Worse, they may force you to leave up mana at awkward times. I've certainly attacked with my dorky 1/2s without the Copter when I think my opponent wants to spend 3 mana on a removal spell before.

The only cards I really like against it are the 1-mana artifact destruction spells, Harnessed Lightning, Fiery Temper and the flashback on Kozilek's Return off of Deep Fiend. Grasp is awkward but it does kill a Copter with +1/+1 from the crew dwarf which is important.

I wouldn't be surprised if something clean like Putrefy is in the Amonkhet card file as an escape valve. Flavorful with mummies, too.

Also, it's kind of weird that there's no targeted discard that gets rid of Copter on time.

 

[charlequin]

I'd argue having to main deck a card like that would be indicative of a problematic card.

It's an artifact block, everyone should expect to play artifact hate that's crappier in a vacuum than is usually viable.

The problem with just deferring to the PT in order to "fix" the Copter Problem is that its a cheap and powerful card that goes in every deck. That usually results in said card seeing play in basically every deck.

There isn't a "Copter Problem" yet, there's one B-list tournament and a bunch of people online who don't know anything about building good decks. When something is a named card Problem like this it's the PT and/or following GPs that actually make it so.

My big complaint is that even in the Future Future League they had a deck that didn't suck running the 5 colours.

Yeah, but stuff like Converge is actually an out to worry less about your mana base. If you have 3 mana in 2 colors, your 3-mana converge card is just suboptimal, not useless. Being able to reliably play wedge cards from multiple wedges in pure-goodstuff decks is actually a big step up from the most basic implementation of a Bring to Light deck or whatever.

Nothing about a 5 mana enchantment that requires 5 colours to get max value, another 5 to bounce, etc seems like it would have been this backbreaking card, especially when Wizards still had a bunch of strong enchantment removal.

They weren't going to change that card because it wrecked the metagame, they were going to change it because even if it was good but fair it would be completely miserable.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";219922550]The only cards I really like against it are the 1-mana artifact destruction spells, Harnessed Lightning, Fiery Temper and the flashback on Kozilek's Return off of Deep Fiend. [/quote]

This is basically the thought process that led me to Fragmentize in the first place.

I wouldn't be surprised if something clean like Putrefy is in the Amonkhet card file as an escape valve.

In the very article we're talking about Sam specifically mentioned that they make the artifact removal weaker in this block so it doesn't hate out all the different random artifacts in Standard, then make better stuff in the block afterwards to reign in this block as part of the whole environment.

 

["God's Beard!"]

In the very article we're talking about Sam specifically mentioned that they make the artifact removal weaker in this block so it doesn't hate out all the different random artifacts in Standard, then make better stuff in the block afterwards to reign in this block as part of the whole environment.

It's a pretty typical strategy of theirs in general. Just like Back to Nature in M15.

 

[Ashodin]

This weekend is the PT right? So we'll see what comes up, but I'd wager largely that we'll see all manner of artifact sideboard hate.