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[darkside31337]

The Masterpiece cards are -hideous-. Its like some weird puke orange.

Think its fine but am I reading it right in that you're allowed to play it in limited no matter what? That seems stupid, if its not draft legal you shouldnt be allowed to play it.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

This I'm not worried about. 1 in 144 packs means they're going to show up what, once in every four/five drafts on average? And if the Invention for your cycle is a Gearhulk or a Hangerback Walker that's not even that bad. I'd bet that something like 1/10 drafts or less even see a guy who gets a Mana Crypt equivalent.

And if you're playing MTGO draft leagues, you might get the pleasure of playing against it even if it wasn't opened at your table!

 

[The Technomancer]

This seems like junk but will be annoying as hell in Limited

 

[GregLombardi]

The Masterpiece cards are -hideous-. Its like some weird puke orange.

Think its fine but am I reading it right in that you're allowed to play it in limited no matter what? That seems stupid, if its not draft legal you shouldnt be allowed to play it.

This is a crazy announcement. We should wait until we can see a non digital version of the card before judging IMO.

 

[Santiako]

And if you're playing MTGO draft leagues, you might get the pleasure of playing against it even if it wasn't opened at your table!

Masterpiece cards are planned for Magic Online, but will not be redeemable and are not counted as part of the set. They're going to be distributed in an exciting new way, but we're not quite ready to announce what that is. Look for that announcement later this month.

They don't seem to be in boosters in MTGO, so you won't have to worry about that. I wonder how they'll distribute them.

 

[ultron87]

I'd assumed this land art was for a plains, since it seemed to depict farming. But I guess Swamp makes sense what with the water.

Here are the basics: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/basic-lands-kaladesh-2016-09-12

 

[Crocodile]

"Challenge #2: Getting Players Access to Older Cards"

How do super rare cards alleviate supply issues with older cards at all? If they reprint Damnation just as a "Masterpiece" card and then say "guys we did it - stop bugging us" they are going to be in for a rough time >_<

 

[Son1x]

This seems like junk but will be annoying as hell in Limited

This works with Madcap Experiment. Any game winning artifacts in standard?

 

[ultron87]

"Challenge #2: Getting Players Access to Older Cards"

How do super rare cards alleviate supply issues with older cards at all? If they reprint Damnation just as a "Masterpiece" card and then say "guys we did it - stop bugging us" they are going to be in for a rough time >_<

Given that Mana Crypt was just in Eternal Masters and also shows up here we can at least assume for now that being a expedition doesn't disqualify something from being reprinted elsewhere.

 

[jph139]

3. This seems like way too much- 20 is probably the right number per set. 30 in large sets and 25 in small sets makes it too hard for even hardcore collectors

I think it's too many based on premise alone honestly. Like, it's easy to put together ~50 cards when the themes are as vague as "lands" or "artifacts," but it's gonna be hard to consistently put together lists of cards that are desirable, interesting, setting-appropriate, and form a cohesive whole.

 

[bigkrev]

This I'm not worried about. 1 in 144 packs means they're going to show up what, once in every four/five drafts on average? And if the Invention for your cycle is a Gearhulk or a Hangerback Walker that's not even that bad. I'd bet that something like 1/10 drafts or less even see a guy who gets a Mana Crypt equivalent.

The first time you lose a cutoff match at a GP to a Bonfire/Damnation/whatever you weren't playing around because the effect isn't in those colors in the set (IE, not playing around wraith against a R/B agro deck) is probably the last time you ever travel to a Grand Prix. Think about the most savage bad beat you have ever had, and now think about how much worse it would be if the card they beat you with wasn't technically legal in the format

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'd assumed this land art was for a plains, since it seemed to depict farming. But I guess Swamp makes sense what with the water.

Here are the basics: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/basic-lands-kaladesh-2016-09-12

aside from a few standouts really bad basics. I get they want to incorporate the swirly into everything but it looks dumb on the middle island for instance. The lefternmost Island is beautiful though.

 

[Hero]

Hmm, mixed feelings about this. Definitely agree that Expeditions helped dropped the prices for BFZ for standard cards.

Doing it every set though?

 

[Etrian Oddity]

So since it's with the Gearhulk, that means Hangarback stays Standard-legal with the new Expeditions card???

 

[OnPoint]

So since it's with the Gearhulk, that means Hangarback stays Standard-legal with the new Expeditions card???

If Hangarback is in Kaladesh? Sure. But I'm sure it'll work just like the Expeditions -- if they're not in the set proper, they aren't standard legal.

 

[Llyrwenne]

So since it's with the Gearhulk, that means Hangarback stays Standard-legal with the new Expeditions card???

Only if Hangarback is also reprinted in the set regularly. Cards printed as expeditions only are not standard-legal. But that should be obvious as Wizards is probably smart enough to not put Mana Crypt in Standard.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Is there any more flavorfully appropriate place to reprint the Miracles than in a Masterpiece slot? I mean, seriously.

 

[Hero]

Is there any more flavorfully appropriate place to reprint the Miracles than in a Masterpiece slot? I mean, seriously.

Whatever the angel plane is going to be.

 

[Angry Grimace]

A lot of thoughts-

1. I think Expeditions worked because it was new- doing it every set is going to burn people out like crazy
2. If people continue to eat them up, it's going to lead to Standard being super cheap because of price depression. This is good for standard players, but bad in a sense that the cards will have no value, and thus selling out or trading into modern/EDH will be impossible
3. This seems like way too much- 20 is probably the right number per set. 30 in large sets and 25 in small sets makes it too hard for even hardcore collectors
4. This reeks of 90s Sports Cards gimmicks, which, even if Magic is fine (as they keep saying), makes me more worried about the future of the game than anything they have done since the invention of Mythic Rares
5. It was fine to do with lands, but playing around extra cards in limited will not be fun, especially when we get a cycle of spells like Bonfire down the line.

Overall- This is a bad thing. Combined with all the shit they have been announcing recently, I'm worried about the future of the game.

I think its less likely to be a thing that will drive set sales at some point because unlike Expeditions, its not like a large number of these will be generally valuable. It's just cool stuff you get to open.

Only if Hangarback is also reprinted in the set regularly. Cards printed as expeditions only are not standard-legal. But that should be obvious as Wizards is probably smart enough to not put Mana Crypt in Standard.

Maro actually confirms that Hangarback Walker isn't in the set - he says the "Kaladesh Inventions" set has 5 cards that are in Kaladesh itself. It's clear that this is the Gearhulk Cycle.

 

[ultron87]

So Amonkhet will have big mythic creature masterpieces maybe? I mean Consecrated Sphinx is the obvious one.

 

[darkside31337]

Hmm, mixed feelings about this. Definitely agree that Expeditions helped dropped the prices for BFZ for standard cards.

Doing it every set though?

You know what else dropped the prices for BFZ standard cards? BFZ being a completely garbage set. Not just for limited but the number of constructed cards was one of the lowest in modern magic. Expeditions might help but I'm not sure pointing to BFZ of all sets would be proof of that

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Whatever the angel plane is going to be.

I don't ever want to see Miracles in Standard again.

But if we got to see someone Miracle an Entreat the Angels in the top 8 of a Limited GP because they opened a Masterpiece...I legit don't care how much of a bad beat that would be - it would be awesome to see.

 

[Hero]

You know what else dropped the prices for BFZ standard cards? BFZ being a completely garbage set. Not just for limited but the number of constructed cards was one of the lowest in modern magic. Expeditions might help but I'm not sure pointing to BFZ of all sets would be proof of that

So it was a completely garbage set but was opened so little that the most expensive card is less than 20 dollars? That's not how it works.

 

[OnPoint]

Man BFZ was garbage thought, wasn't it?

I honestly hope we never go back to Zendikar.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's one of those things that's curious, but has almost no negative ramifications for people who purchase product beyond skepticism that they will reprint enemy fetchlands.

 

[darkside31337]

So it was a completely garbage set but was opened so little that the most expensive card is less than 20 dollars? That's not how it works.

The set was opened plenty. Casual players enjoyed it. I think its one of the worst sets ever created and easily the worst set in the last decade so shrug.

 

[MoxManiac]

The set was opened plenty. Casual players enjoyed it. I think its one of the worst sets ever created and easily the worst set in the last decade so shrug.

I think Dragon's Maze was worse.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Okay, I asked about Walker because I sold my set on MtGO, lol.

I love that red Gearhulk. I wonder how it'd serve as a finisher in a Temur deck?

 

[red13th]

Challenge #2: Getting Players Access to Older Cards

While Standard is much beloved, many players enjoy playing larger formats involving older cards. Players were having trouble getting access to older, often more powerful cards. (The power level of a format goes up as more cards are playable in that format, which is why older formats tend to have a higher power level.) The solution to making these older cards available was reprinting them.

However, when we experimented with putting some of these older cards in Standard, we found the more powerful ones warped Standard in a way we felt was unhealthy for the format, so we looked to other avenues to release these cards. We tried putting some in nonrandom supplemental sets like Commander and Duel Decks, but it warped how the products were selling. We were able to reprint some in Masters sets and others in supplemental booster releases like the Conspiracy sets, but we recognized there was still more demand for reprints and we needed to find additional places to release them.

This is so hypocritical it's almost insulting

 

[Hero]

The set was opened plenty. Casual players enjoyed it. I think its one of the worst sets ever created and easily the worst set in the last decade so shrug.

So you think prices have more to do with the fact that you think the set sucks moreso than it does that BFZ was massively cracked open compared to a normal set?

 

[bigkrev]

I think its less likely to be a thing that will drive set sales at some point because unlike Expeditions, its not like a large number of these will be generally valuable. It's just cool stuff you get to open.

I'm assuming that this announcement is the end of the FTV line, because these compete for reprints and themes that FTV needs. You are going to have at least a few in each set that end up being worth a ton of money- as long as it isn't on the reserved list, it's fair game. They have talked in the past about being wary about reprinting cards worth $100+ in supplamental products because then the product stops being about whatever theme they wanted (ie, Archenemy) and instead becomes about the one card, and they clearly are scared about violently shaking up the secondary market- which is why Masters sets are $10 boosters. This is the best of everything for them- it lets them reprint expensive stuff like Mana Drain in a mass produced product while still keeping the card rare enough it isn't going to impact the cards price, and not warping the value of a set so much that a new player can't walk into target and buy boosters.

 

[darkside31337]

This is so hypocritical it's almost insulting

They are seriously just flat out admitting that Masters completely failed at what they were intended to do.

Its almost like artificially inflating the prices of boosters and designing the sets in a way to minimize actually lowering the costs of older cards doesn't actually help out accessibility to those formats for folks who might be interested in getting into said formats.

So you think prices have more to do with the fact that you think the set sucks moreso than it does that BFZ was massively cracked open compared to a normal set?

Yes. Its supply and demand. There was more supply than normal and way less demand for singles because the set wasn't very good in regards to constructed.

 

[hermit7]

So Amonkhet will have big mythic creature masterpieces maybe? I mean Consecrated Sphinx is the obvious one.

Theros gods, flavored as other pantheons existing.

 

[HK-47]

Man BFZ was garbage thought, wasn't it?

I honestly hope we never go back to Zendikar.

Nah Oath was a great set. It was what BFZ should have been.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Since the earlier image for this is now broken:

Well, time to add a new section to the OP. After the success of Zendikar Expeditions, I suppose making that permanent was inevitable. Except insofar as the Masterpieces not being as good or as common as one would like, this is nothing but a good thing. MaRo's article presents this as part of a multifaceted reprint strategy, allowing Standard sets to get in on the action more easily. We know for a fact that Modern Masters is still coming out next year, so this is solely in addition to their current reprint strategy.

"Tool Shaper" seems damn good, especially with Thraben Inspector. Electrostatic Pummeler will definitely have people try to make it work in casual decks.

I like Combustible Gearhulk. The standard way to examine punisher effects is that it's worse than both options: 6/6 first strike that gets you three cards; or a 6/6 first strike that deals a random amount of damage to the opponent, likely 0-5 or so, and gets three cards in your graveyard. A 4RR 6/6 first strike creature seems like enough of a baseline to make this worthwhile.

Consulate Surveillance reminds me of the Circles of Protection, though much weaker, of course.

I like the lands in this set, especially this Island.

I was surprised that land art in the OP turned out to be a Swamp.

EDIT: ... Guys, you do remember that Modern Masters is confirmed to still come out next year, right? And that Conspiracy 2 just had more in-demand reprints than expected?

 

[OnPoint]

Nah Oath was a great set. It was what BFZ should have been.

I didn't say Oath was garbage. I quite liked Oath.

I just don't see what Zendikar could have to offer narrative-wise at this point to be interesting enough for a return. They pretty much wrapped it up and now that the central conflict is gone, it's just kind of... there.

 

[Hero]

I'm assuming that this announcement is the end of the FTV line, because these compete for reprints and themes that FTV needs. You are going to have at least a few in each set that end up being worth a ton of money- as long as it isn't on the reserved list, it's fair game. They have talked in the past about being wary about reprinting cards worth $100+ in supplamental products because then the product stops being about whatever theme they wanted (ie, Archenemy) and instead becomes about the one card, and they clearly are scared about violently shaking up the secondary market- which is why Masters sets are $10 boosters. This is the best of everything for them- it lets them reprint expensive stuff like Mana Drain in a mass produced product while still keeping the card rare enough it isn't going to impact the cards price, and not warping the value of a set so much that a new player can't walk into target and buy boosters.

It certainly could be. FTV Lore was kind of stretching a cool theme for them to do anyway.

They are seriously just flat out admitting that Masters completely failed at what they were intended to do.

Its almost like artificially inflating the prices of boosters and designing the sets in a way to minimize actually lowering the costs of older cards doesn't actually help out accessibility to those formats for folks who might be interested in getting into said formats.



Yes. Its supply and demand. There was more supply than normal and way less demand for singles because the set wasn't very good in regards to constructed.

The bolded is exactly the issue. How about let's agree to meet in the middle and say it was a combination of both?

 

[red13th]

I like the lands in this set, especially this Island.

LOVE this. I think it's the first land art Johannes Voß has done?

 

[Ashodin]

So much knee-jerk to the masterpiece lol

And the frame will be metallic so you can't tell just by card art alone

 

[Supast4r]

Nah Oath was a great set. It was what BFZ should have been.

Personally I hate the design of Thought-Knot and Reality Smasher. They both have multi color abilities and any deck can cast them. Not to mention it gave colorless a sorcery counterspell. The powerlevel of oath was fine but I wasn't a fan of those card designs.

 

[charlequin]

The Masterpiece cards are -hideous-. Its like some weird puke orange.

It's copper foil ink. It's gonna look like this:

He mentions in the article that the digital representation isn't that accurate, similar to how they couldn't really show off the black-on-black planeswalkers accurately.

How do super rare cards alleviate supply issues with older cards at all? If they reprint Damnation just as a "Masterpiece" card and then say "guys we did it - stop bugging us" they are going to be in for a rough time >_<

Man, everyone takes every single event as an opportunity to spin these stories about how WotC is run by these, like, cruel ogres who just look for ways to make horrible decisions that piss off their fans. They are very clearly aware of the situation with Damnation and what people are expecting from them about it -- Rosewater and Forsythe have acknowledged it explicitly recently. Rosewater notes several times in this article that this can be one part of an effective reprint strategy, not all of it. Like I don't think they have been successful so far in the reprinting goal but it's not really because they're just whistling past the graveyard.

1. I think Expeditions worked because it was new- doing it every set is going to burn people out like crazy

What kind of burnout are you thinking? Like people just stop thinking they're cool? Like people stop playing?

I think the biggest risk -- and from what I've seen I think they have already tipped over this in the last couple years -- is that people who made an effort to be some manner of completist collectors will all just throw their hands up and give up because all the nifty things are just monstrously difficult to collect and there's too many of them. I don't know how bad that really is, though. The thing about collectible bling in MTG is that the game aspect really cushions against collector shocks of the type that affected old collectible cards -- the number of people who buy cards to play is far greater than the number who buy to keep stuff in a case, so even a spike followed by a drop in collector interest won't be too disruptive overall.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Could just instantly win you the game, spicy. I'm sure most people will just choose card draw.

It's a pretty interesting card if you're playing a ramp deck that wants stuff like Fall of the Titans. Ramp decks run out of cards pretty quick and play a lot of high cmc cards so playing a deck that can make use of both halves effectively is key. I don't know how much play this card will see and first strike on a 6/6 is kinda garbage but it's definitely interesting.

 

[The Technomancer]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";216675454]It's a pretty interesting card if you're playing a ramp deck that wants stuff like Fall of the Titans. Ramp decks run out of cards pretty quick and play a lot of high cmc cards so playing a deck that can make use of both halves effectively is key. I don't know how much play this card will see and first strike on a 6/6 is kinda garbage but it's definitely interesting.[/QUOTE]

Its going to depend very heavily on how well you know your opponents deck. How likely is it that you take less from the direct damage then you'll take from the stuff you let them draw?

I actually really hope it finds a place in Standard

 

[charlequin]

You know what else dropped the prices for BFZ standard cards? BFZ being a completely garbage set.

This is actually the exact opposite of what happens in a vacuum to garbage sets. If a set only has a few playables and a crummy limited format, very little of it is opened and so cards don't have a chance to normalize around pack EV, and the few playable rares and mythics maintain ridiculous prices. BFZ had expeditions and full-art lands helping to drive sales so even though most cards were bad the few playable ones still stayed in at least reasonable price ranges.

This is so hypocritical it's almost insulting

What's the hypocritical part? Where are they contradicting themselves?

I'm assuming that this announcement is the end of the FTV line, because these compete for reprints and themes that FTV needs.

They didn't announce an FTV on Announcement Day this year, which they would have had to given their normal product release schedule, so yeah my guess is they're donezo.

They are seriously just flat out admitting that Masters completely failed at what they were intended to do.

They've been pretty clear that the point of the Masters sets is to increase total supply without cratering prices, and the reason that's the point is that if you turn around one day and annihilate the value of people who've spent thousands of dollars on Modern-legal cards you do irreparable damage to your own brand. Instead they bring down the prices of a bunch of stuff slowly: Sneak Attack's a $25 card instead of a $50 card now, Karakas is a $65 card instead of a $150 card.

Now, again, whether they're doing this right given their goals is questionable: MM2 was very poorly thought out and I think the $10 price and size of print run are too conservative on these. But this approach as part of an overall reprint strategy is pretty workable.

 

[Matriox]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";216675454]It's a pretty interesting card if you're playing a ramp deck that wants stuff like Fall of the Titans. Ramp decks run out of cards pretty quick and play a lot of high cmc cards so playing a deck that can make use of both halves effectively is key. I don't know how much play this card will see and first strike on a 6/6 is kinda garbage but it's definitely interesting.[/QUOTE]

Big red with a couple Ulamog/Kozilek/Emrakul, Hedron archive and New Chandra for some ramp, some burn spot removal, and toss in some Gearhulks and you'll probably be drawing 3 every time. Unless they wanna chance hitting for 10+ on an eldrazi. Splash white and you've got some sweet nahiri interaction.

 

[Santiako]

This dude owns hard.

This is good in limited too.

 

[Ashodin]

Lifelink on dimir seems odd. Black has it as secondary right?

 

[MoxManiac]

Lifelink on dimir seems odd. Black has it as secondary right?

Yeah, black gets lifelink occasionaly.

1/4 body seems good too.

 

[siddx]

I'm a lifelink fanboy, an artifact bitch, and I like 2 drops with fatasses that can stick around. I'd hit that.

 

[Xis]

I think the biggest risk -- and from what I've seen I think they have already tipped over this in the last couple years -- is that people who made an effort to be some manner of completist collectors will all just throw their hands up and give up because all the nifty things are just monstrously difficult to collect and there's too many of them.

I know I feel this way.
Theros block - It is not too difficult to collect all the alternate arts (FNMs, etc) for Theros block.
Tarkir block - it is much more difficult to collect all the alternate arts, thanks to the Ugin's Fate promos, but there's only really one expensive card (promo Ugin goes for over $100).
Battle for Zendikar block - if you include the expeditions, this is basically impossible to complete.
I imagine Shadows over Innistrad block is easier, but we revert back to the BFZ model starting with Kaladesh on.