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Making A Murderer - Netflix 10-part documentary series - S1 now streaming on Netflix

http://chadsteele.blogspot.com/2016/01/some-clarity-to-some-of-evidence-in.html?m=1

This blog post is from a Scientist who works on determining the validity of scientific tests, and he lists his thoughts on the tests done in this case. What I find fascinating is what he says RE: the EDTA test. Knowing all that, the fact that EDTA tests were suspended by the FBI years ago, prior to the Avery case, due to how unreliable they actually were puts this test in doubt for me even further.
 

y2dvd

Member
So wait, one if the argument for Avery being guilty is that they found bleach on some jeans? So this is implying Avery was trying and able to meticulously clean up all the blood in the garage where the murder supposedly took place? But then he did a shit job covering up Teresa's vehicle using a few branches and pieces of wood, even with a car compactor not far away that would've meticulously destroyed it. One could probably come to the conclusion that a car is easier to spot than blood. And Avery failed to destroy this car? Hmm.
 
So wait, one if the argument for Avery being guilty is that they found bleach on some jeans? So this is implying Avery was trying and able to meticulously clean up all the blood in the garage where the murder supposedly took place? But then he did a shit job covering up Teresa's vehicle using a few branches and pieces of wood, even with a car compactor not far away that would've meticulously destroyed it. One could probably come to the conclusion that a car is easier to spot than blood. And Avery failed to destroy this car? Hmm.

The bleach thing is that they found bleach on Brendan's jeans, which is borderline irrelevant, but the prosecution NEEDS to sell the idea that Brendan is there at the crime-scene, because one of Brendan's confession's was used as evidence to convict Avery.

However, bleach is a common stain remover on jeans. If Brendan's jeans needed disposing, why didn't they just burn it in the bonfire that was going on? And why is there no evidence of other clothes in that burn pile, other than Teresa's (they found one of the rivets of one of her jeans in the ashes, but all these ashes were proven to have been moved at one point).
 

Kaiterra

Banned
Anyone have link to Brendan's interviews?

Never mind. I found transcript of confession. This to me is damning....the original confession he gives is completely unprovoked. They don't feed him any of the initial shit he confesses to, which is seeing her in Avery's home. Stabbing. Shooting. Burning. Or maybe I'm reading these out of order...

Pretty sure you are.
 
Pretty sure you are.
Yeah. I was reading the final one first. I'm reading the first now...but still, I do find his confession the most damning out of everything for Avery. Based on the evidence presented, there is no way I would ever find Avery guilty. But this testimony...? It isn't all terrible. Some of the things he states seem...I dunno.

The testing that would have been required to scientifically validate this test would have required some time. After following standard validation procedures, I would have taken blood from an EDTA vial (any blood) and put it onto a vehicle surface. After the blood was completely dry, I would have used the same blood swabbing and collection procedure used during the investigation, and then tested that sample. This would be a positive control, since the technician would know that there was EDTA in that sample. Does the newly-developed test detect the EDTA? If so, repeat it at least 10 times, and you have a strong scientific ground to make the statement that there was no EDTA present in the blood from the vehicle. If the test does not detect EDTA from the experiment above, one cannot make any mention about the presence or absence of EDTA in the blood swabs from the vehicle because the test could not detect EDTA amounts that small.
Makes sense to me, which is why it makes no sense the FBI got away with this shit.
 

Choabac

Member
http://chadsteele.blogspot.com/2016/01/some-clarity-to-some-of-evidence-in.html?m=1

This blog post is from a Scientist who works on determining the validity of scientific tests, and he lists his thoughts on the tests done in this case. What I find fascinating is what he says RE: the EDTA test. Knowing all that, the fact that EDTA tests were suspended by the FBI years ago, prior to the Avery case, due to how unreliable they actually were puts this test in doubt for me even further.

That's a good link. I'm a research scientist with a focus on developing diagnostics, and I was discussing virtually these same points with my colleagues over the past few days.

I wonder if the jury understood the problems with these tests.
 

Dalek

Member
Something was cleared up that I didn't understand.

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/01/0...ang-addresses-charges-evidence-missing-series

Strang also spoke about the “sweat” that Kratz said Avery allegedly left under the hood of Halbach’s car. “There was no evidence of sweat, there was evidence of DNA, Steven’s DNA, transferred,” he said.

“The sweat theory was just Mr. Kratz’s theory,” he added, saying Avery’s DNA could have come from anywhere. “His skin, a DCI agent’s glove…could have transferred that DNA under the hood,” said Strang.
 
I'm behind on this because it makes me so angry that I can't watch more than an episode at a time. I swear this shit is physically bad for my health.
 
Anyone have link to Brendan's interviews?

Never mind. I found transcript of confession. This to me is damning....the original confession he gives is completely unprovoked. They don't feed him any of the initial shit he confesses to, which is seeing her in Avery's home. Stabbing. Shooting. Burning. Or maybe I'm reading these out of order...

Vince, is there another link you can provide for that first confession? I am reading the two confessions that he had done on that day, Feb. 27th (links here):

https://www.docdroid.net/2KmgtSR/mishicothstranscript.pdf.html

https://www.docdroid.net/80khPqQ/tworiverspdtranscript.pdf.html

There are some huge problems in both of these initial confessions (which i'll go over in another post), but the very first confession he has with them at the high-school, they are TOTALLY pushing him in directions instead of letting his confession guide them. They're guiding him, not the other way around. And i'll get to the holes in his confessions in another post.

Mind you, his story is inconsistent even when he is telling the same story at two different times on the same day for the very first time. I can see why prosecution wanted Brendan's confession to remain in, because the 2nd version of his initial confession puts tires in the fire, and tire metal mesh fragments were found on her bones. However, he specifically says there weren't any tires when he describes this bonfire the first time. They ask him if there were tires and he says no, just branches. Then, a few hours later, there are tires in the bonfire. That is one inconsistency out of many that can be found in Brendan's initial confession.
 
One of the most suspicious things for me is the fact that Avery happened to have a bon fire the same night Terisa remains were burned. I'm not sure if he just has bon fires a lot, or because it was Halloween? Just seems really convient. And why does he only invite Brendan to the bon fire?

Hearing that Avery actually owned shackels was pretty weird too, the doc had me thinking everything Brendan said was out of thin air. Is it true the shackles were found in the fire pit? Is there any truth to the comment about Brendan coming home with bleach on his clothes? Was it like, they tested his jeans and found bleach (not strange could just be from the wasb) or did his Mom see he had bleach stains and made a comment?

I was always unsure on Avery's innocence, but always thought Brendan was totally innocent, especially after seeing how easy it is to coerise a confession from other cases. Now I'm unsure of them both. Obviously there is ample reasonable doubt and the police more than likely planted the key, blood is super sketchy as well, same with the bullet. Anyway, I'm definitely in the camp that they shouldn't have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm down to, Avery did it or a family member framed him, Brenden may or may not have helped, but probably didn't.

Also, I hated how they tried to make light of the cat thing in the first episode, he was 23 when it happened and the Cat was covered in gasoline before being thrown into a fire, that's fucked up. The same could be said about pulling someone over and pointing a gun at them.
 
One of the most suspicious things for me is the fact that Avery happened to have a bon fire the same night Terisa remains were burned. I'm not sure if he just has bon fires a lot, or because it was Halloween? Just seems really convient. And why does he only invite Brendan to the bon fire?

Hearing that Avery actually owned shackels was pretty weird too, the doc had me thinking everything Brendan said was out of thin air. Is it true the shackles were found in the fire pit? Is there any truth to the comment about Brendan coming home with bleach on his clothes? Was it like, they tested his jeans and found bleach (not strange could just be from the wasb) or did his Mom see he had bleach stains and made a comment?

I was always unsure on Avery's innocence, but always thought Brendan was totally innocent, especially after seeing how easy it is to coerise a confession from other cases. Now I'm unsure of them both. Obviously there is ample reasonable doubt and the police more than likely planted the key, blood is super sketchy as well, same with the bullet. Anyway, I'm definitely in the camp that they shouldn't have been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'm down to, Avery did it or a family member framed him, Brenden may or may not have helped, but probably didn't.

Also, I hated how they tried to make light of the cat thing in the first episode, he was 23 when it happened and the Cat was covered in gasoline before being thrown into a fire, that's fucked up. The same could be said about pulling someone over and pointing a gun at them.

1 - Shackles were not found in the fire pit. They were found in his home, and Steve's sister in her home had two pairs. They weren't shackles, fyi, they were kink/BDSM leg cuffs. The last page has a link to when they were found and submitted as evidence during the trial. They were bought at a kink/sex shop.

2 - In regards to the fire, two different forensic scientists have given testimony that the bones/ashes in his fire pit show evidence that they were moved, and that the fire in his bon fire pit was NOT hot enough to do the damage to her bones that was found. Also, a burn barrel containing female human bones was found behind the house of Steve's brother, and in the quarry, although it was inconclusive if they were Teresa's.
 

Joco

Member
One of the most suspicious things for me is the fact that Avery happened to have a bon fire the same night Terisa remains were burned. I'm not sure if he just has bon fires a lot, or because it was Halloween? Just seems really convient.

Not trying to defend Avery here but I live close to the area and bonfires aren't all that uncommon, especially in months like September and October were it is starting to get colder in Wisconsin but not cold enough where people stay inside. Might seem convenient, but I think it could just well be coincidence.

I do agree that some of the other stuff (burning the cat, forcing that woman off the road while pointed a gun at her) was too lightly glossed over.
 
Not trying to defend Avery here but I live close to the area and bonfires aren't all that uncommon, especially in months like September and October were it is starting to get colder in Wisconsin but not cold enough where people stay inside. Might seem convenient, but I think it could just well be coincidence.

I do agree that some of the other stuff (burning the cat, forcing that woman off the road while pointed a gun at her) was too lightly glossed over.

The forcing the woman off-road (not a strange woman; it was Sandra Miller, a far-removed family member who did not like the Averys & also was married to someone who is in the Sheriff's department) at gunpoint is explained in the very first episode, as it was him getting back at her for spreading rumors about him having sex with his first wife on his front lawn in front of the whole neighborhood. The gun was also not loaded, but thats neither here nor there - all of his violent incidents occur before he goes in for 18 years in 1985.
 

The Beard

Member
Yeah. I was reading the final one first. I'm reading the first now...but still, I do find his confession the most damning out of everything for Avery. Based on the evidence presented, there is no way I would ever find Avery guilty. But this testimony...? It isn't all terrible. Some of the things he states seem...I dunno.

After reading the first transcript (the one that took place at Brendans school) I can't believe anything Brendan said in any of those interviews. The investigators planted every single major detail into that kids head. Brendan didn't voluntarily offer up anything useful, he pretty much just said "yeah", or parroted the details the investigators were giving.
 
Brendan's initial confession on Feb. 27th show classic signs of guided testimony on behalf of the detectives. Mind you, he gave his confession twice that day; first at the high-school, then again a few hours later at a police station with his mother present. Now, the first thing we need to understand is that Brendan's sister is also involved in this. She was the one who told school officials that Brendan may know something, and that Brendan was at the bonfire in Steven's backyard the night of Oct. 31st. She said that he seemed sad and that he'd been losing a bunch of weight, which the detectives attributed to guilt, not the fact that he had just broken up with hist first girlfriend ever (a fact he brings up during the confession).

Much of the initial information the detectives have (from his side) going into this is is from what Brendan's sister alleges he told her (he would say he told no one about this out of fear of repercussion from Steven). So, in the first confession, the detectives keep pushing for items to be included in his confession that are consistent with the evidence that they know is already there. They know that there are tire mesh webbing on Teresa's bones, and they know that a piece of her clothing (a rivet from her jeans) is in those ashes. So, when they are asking for the confession, and he begins missing these points, they keep doubling back and asking again until he eventually tells them what they want to hear.

This first happens with the tire. They ask him what was in the fire when he first gets there, and he says just branches and stuff. Then they ask him if there were any tires, which he replies with no, just branches. Then, when they start asking him about the fire again, they keep asking about tires being in the fire, and BLAM, suddenly he starts saying there are tires in the fire.

The other piece was clothing. They know that her clothes are in there. So they keep asking him if he saw clothing in there, or if the garbage bags he brought out looked like they had clothing. Then they keep peppering him with images of their construction (you saw her clothes didn't you. Did you see blood on her clothes? Were they in the garbage bag?), and after he initially denies this, he starts telling them that yes, there were clothes in the bags, and that he saw them in there, bloody and with a stab wound in the stomach area of the shirt.

The biggest inconsistency was in regards to a cut he describes Steven has. Mind you, these are from the two confessions he gave on the very same day, his first confessions. In confession 1 of that day, they ask him if he had any scratches, and he says yes he did, on his finger. They ask him if Steven told him how he got it, and Brendan says he got it from a piece of glass. Later that same day, Brendan's confession changes - now, Steve has a cut on his arm & his finger, only the cut on his arm came from a piece of glass, and the cut on his finger comes from, and Brendan claims this in the second confession after the detectives ask him if it was from Teresa, that Teresa scratched him while he was stabbing/dealing with her.

We're not even gonna get into the sled part (in confession 1 of that day, Brendan claims Steven offered no details on how he transported the body from the pit to the house, while in confession 2, Brendan says he transported her with a sled).

To me, its pretty clear what happened here - this is a youngster who was close to a story the media was covering extensively and who started placing events into his head since he was so close to it. What do I mean by this? Well, at that time, the media was running rampant with details of the investigation (the bonfire pit in his backyard containing her remains, the jeep being found). Remember, this confession occurs nearly 4 months after the event. So the media is saying Steven had a bonfire & roasted her in his backyard! And its on Halloween night. And several people & Brendan himself realize he was at a bonfire at that backyard that very night. So people start telling him, you must have seen something. Anything. He clearly did it. And now, suddenly, he starts imaging it. I mean, he was RIGHT THERE! He MUST HAVE SEEN SOMETHING. The cops know Brenda was there, he had to have seen it, right? Cause if Brendan didn't see it, then theres no case. In fact, if Brendan states he saw nothing in that bonfire, Steven Avery might be walking out of this thing.

Brendan spends 4 months hearing the news verify that a woman was burned at a bonfire he had attended and hear everyone talk about it, and his mind just started creating details after that.

Here is the key thing you need to remember though - almost none of what he said matches up with the physical evidence actually found. And his story is the most inconsistent story told, ever.
 
Thanks for the info above about shackles. And in the context of fire pits not being uncommon, it certainly makes it less "convient". Still ,makes me wonder if someone who knew he was having the fire took advantage of that to frame him. Quarry definetly seemed like it could have been the real burn site.

The forcing the woman off-road (not a strange woman; it was Sandra Miller, a far-removed family member who did not like the Averys & also was married to someone who is in the Sheriff's department) at gunpoint is explained in the very first episode, as it was him getting back at her for spreading rumors about him having sex with his first wife on his front lawn in front of the whole neighborhood. The gun was also not loaded, but thats neither here nor there - all of his violent incidents occur before he goes in for 18 years in 1985.

Even in the full context of the situation (wasnt trying to say he did it to a random women) it's a terrible way for someone to respond to being bad mouthed in public. Avery had every right to be angry with her, assuming it was all not true. Apparently he did run at her from his house with his penis out. Not sure if that was a "hey you want to say I have sex in public, I'll show you!" Kind of thing, or what... But yeah another terrible way to react. And the gun being unloaded doesn't change much in my mind, the cousin had no way of knowing. I know they also explained his low IQ and how he might be prone to act out the way he did. Still just didn't paint a good picture of someone I'm supposed to be sympathetic toward. He never got a fair trial but I have a tough time thinking he didn't earn his bad reputation.
 

y2dvd

Member
The fact that they mentioned the cat and the incident with his cousin should tell you the documentation isn't totally bias because the cat incident, while horrific, really had nothing to do related to the death of Teresa Halbach. They still gave it to you to add to your own conclusion of Avery's character. What's gonna satisfy yall? If the documentary showed every rage or outburst Avery ever threw in life?
 
The fact that they mentioned the cat and the incident with his cousin should tell you the documentation isn't totally bias because the cat incident, while horrific, really had nothing to do related to the death of Teresa Halbach. They still gave it to you to add to your own conclusion of Avery's character. What's gonna satisfy yall? If the documentary showed every rage or outburst Avery ever threw in life?

Seriosly? Those were the two things he was serving time for, it would be horribly biased to not mention why he was in jail. They also dance around the cat thing enough to where you don't really know what happened. Was not expecting gasoline to be involved.
 

Dalek

Member
The fact that they mentioned the cat and the incident with his cousin should tell you the documentation isn't totally bias because the cat incident, while horrific, really had nothing to do related to the death of Teresa Halbach. They still gave it to you to add to your own conclusion of Avery's character. What's gonna satisfy yall? If the documentary showed every rage or outburst Avery ever threw in life?

How much did this guy tip at restaurants? I need to know.
 
Even in the full context of the situation (wasnt trying to say he did it to a random women) it's a terrible way for someone to respond to being bad mouthed in public. Avery had every right to be angry with her, assuming it was all not true. Apparently he did run at her from his house with his penis out. Not sure if that was a "hey you want to say I have sex in public, I'll show you!" Kind of thing, or what... But yeah another terrible way to react. And the gun being unloaded doesn't change much in my mind, the cousin had no way of knowing. I know they also explained his low IQ and how he might be prone to act out the way he did. Still just didn't paint a good picture of someone I'm supposed to be sympathetic toward. He never got a fair trial but I have a tough time thinking he didn't earn his bad reputation.

To me, the most malicious thing Steven Avery has done was both the burglary, and burning the cat. Now, again - both terrible things. All of these occurred before he was wrongfully convicted in 1985, and then spent 18 years in prison. When he was incorrectly convicted in 1985, he ABSOLUTELY earned his reputation, and I imagine it was that very reputation which made it so easy for the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department to handwave away evidence that suggested it wasn't Steven Avery.

But if we're gonna talk about physical & emotional violence towards women, that ain't Steven Avery. There are people on those 40 acres of the Avery family compound that were there on Oct. 31st who do have that history, and it was recent history in 2005, and it was ever-escalating in the 30 days leading up to the day Teresa Halbach was killed, but it wasn't Steven Avery; it was his brother.
 
Seriosly? Those were the two things he was serving time for, it would be horribly biased to not mention why he was in jail. They also dance around the cat thing enough to where you don't really know what happened. Was not expecting gasoline to be involved.

The point is, it's not important.
It's as relevant to the halbach case as it was relevant to the sexual assault case in 1985; they really didn't have to mention it, and the continued mention of it in the sense of: "oh hey that thing was actually worse than you thought!", really adds nothing to the insane amount of reasonable doubt in this case.
All it does is stir up an emotional response.
 
Seriosly? Those were the two things he was serving time for, it would be horribly biased to not mention why he was in jail. They also dance around the cat thing enough to where you don't really know what happened. Was not expecting gasoline to be involved.

The only reason anyone even brings up the cat thing is to create a mental line that Steven Avery is willing to burn innocent living things, or at the very least that he is capable of doing so. Thats what the prosecution loves to bring up, in order to establish him as a character capable of doing that. The part they love glossing over that the cat incident was something that occurred during his youth, and before giving up nearly 20 years while he was wrongfully imprisoned.
 

Ayt

Banned
Seriosly? Those were the two things he was serving time for, it would be horribly biased to not mention why he was in jail. They also dance around the cat thing enough to where you don't really know what happened. Was not expecting gasoline to be involved.

It really doesn't matter all that much. The point of the documentary isn't about whether Avery is a bad person or even if he is guilty. The point is the blatant failure of the system.
 
To me, the most malicious thing Steven Avery has done was both the burglary, and burning the cat. Now, again - both terrible things. All of these occurred before he was wrongfully convicted in 1985, and then spent 18 years in prison. When he was incorrectly convicted in 1985, he ABSOLUTELY earned his reputation, and I imagine it was that very reputation which made it so easy for the Manitowoc Sheriff's Department to handwave away evidence that suggested it wasn't Steven Avery.

But if we're gonna talk about physical & emotional violence towards women, that ain't Steven Avery. There are people on those 40 acres of the Avery family compound that were there on Oct. 31st who do have that history, and it was recent history in 2005, and it was ever-escalating in the 30 days leading up to the day Teresa Halbach was killed, but it wasn't Steven Avery; it was his brother.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

I'm more or less just pointing out that I started out not liking the guy and ended up totally in his corner at the end of it. Though now thinking back on it and reading events not filtered throug the doc I'm not sure if I can belive Avery is really this simple, kind of sweet, guy he's dipicted as in the show. Doesn't mean he killed Terisa, but does make me understand why he had such a bad reputation. And to be fair reputation isn't fact either.
 

GHG

Member
Did you miss the part where they mention Steven's IQ is 70? Idiots do idiotic things, I'm sure it seemed very reasonable to him when he did it.

But yet a guy with an IQ of 70 somehow managed one of the most immaculate murder clean ups ever seen in the history of America.

I watched this last week with my wife and it left both of us in a state of disbelief and anger. How this was allowed to happen I really don't know. And is it common in America to only get witnesses from the local area in cases like this? Why not get some unbiased witnesses from out of state who have no clue who anybody in the case is?

Also, poor Brendon. All the kid wanted to do was go to school, play video games and watch wrestling. That part where he was on the phone to his mum about recording the wrestling for him was heartbreaking. He was just a harmless kid with a low IQ. God knows the damage being in prison during these key years of his life will be doing to him.
 

Hazmat

Member
But yet a guy with an IQ of 70 somehow managed one of the most immaculate murder clean ups ever seen in the history of America.

I watched this last week with my wife and it left both of us in a state of disbelief and anger. How this was allowed to happen I really don't know. And is it common in America to only get witnesses from the local area in cases like this? Why not get some unbiased witnesses from out of state who have no clue who anybody in the case is?

Also, poor Brendon. All the kid wanted to do was go to school, play video games and watch wrestling. That part where he was on the phone to his mum about recording the wrestling for him was heartbreaking. He was just a harmless kid with a low IQ. God knows the damage being in prison during these key years of his life will be doing to him.

Do you mean jurors? If so, you're asked, under oath, during jury selection of you know the parties involved and are typically removed as a potential juror because of the possibility of bias if you do. The intent of the system is to pull the jurors from your own community, but if either side can demonstrate that they can't get a fair trial locally the trial (and thus, the jury) can be moved. I believe this was the case for Brendan's trial.
 

Dalek

Member
But yet a guy with an IQ of 70 somehow managed one of the most immaculate murder clean ups ever seen in the history of America.

I watched this last week with my wife and it left both of us in a state of disbelief and anger. How this was allowed to happen I really don't know. And is it common in America to only get witnesses from the local area in cases like this? Why not get some unbiased witnesses from out of state who have no clue who anybody in the case is?

Also, poor Brendon. All the kid wanted to do was go to school, play video games and watch wrestling. That part where he was on the phone to his mum about recording the wrestling for him was heartbreaking. He was just a harmless kid with a low IQ. God knows the damage being in prison during these key years of his life will be doing to him.

If the case is held locally, then jury summons are sent out to residents of the same county as the court. I live in Alameda County, so I'd never be summoned for Jury Duty in San Francisco. To move a case to a different country usually requires a motion from the judge to decide if it is necessary-to my knowledge. It could be more complex than that.
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
Do you mean jurors? If so, you're asked, under oath, during jury selection of you know the parties involved and are typically removed as a potential juror because of the possibility of bias if you do. The intent of the system is to pull the jurors from your own community, but if either side can demonstrate that they can't get a fair trial locally the trial (and thus, the jury) can be moved. I believe this was the case for Brendan's trial.


Well I guess if they let Manitowoc County officers search the house 4 months after the start of the case they really don't give a shit if some jury members have a conflict of interest too. Avery should have gone for the mistrial.
 
Finally started this, 2 episodes in, and with 8 more, I can't wait to see how thick this gets. I mean the first 2 are so dense. This is a very well put together doc.
 

GHG

Member
Do you mean jurors? If so, you're asked, under oath, during jury selection of you know the parties involved and are typically removed as a potential juror because of the possibility of bias if you do. The intent of the system is to pull the jurors from your own community, but if either side can demonstrate that they can't get a fair trial locally the trial (and thus, the jury) can be moved. I believe this was the case for Brendan's trial.

If the case is held locally, then jury summons are sent out to residents of the same county as the court. I live in Alameda County, so I'd never be summoned for Jury Duty in San Francisco. To move a case to a different country usually requires a motion from the judge to decide if it is necessary-to my knowledge. It could be more complex than that.

Thanks guys. Yes I meant jurors (doh!), didn't get much sleep last night, running on empty :|
 

Hazmat

Member
Well I guess if they let Manitowoc County officers search the house 4 months after the start of the case they really don't give a shit if some jury members have a conflict of interest too. Avery should have gone for the mistrial.

Avery's counsel was involved in jury selection as well. I don't think we can really harp on Avery having an unfair jury. I mean, the jury system is kind of dumb, but it's the law of the land.
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
How about the bullet in the garage.
It is claimed he washed the whole garage with bleach and burned the ground.
In such a professional way, that absolutely none of Theresas DNA was found. But the one magic bullet which was found MONTHS later still had DNA on it, which survived the bleach AND the burning. What a trooper that bullet is. Surviving and hiding until it's convenient for the prosecution.

Its even more insane than that. According to the prosecution Teresa was shot 11 times in the garage. There should be blood, brain matter, bone fragments EVERYWHERE. Then the two 70 IQ suspects meticulously manage to bleach the entire garage clean. Not even a single follicle of her DNA remains. Not in the cracks in the cement, not a droplet hidden amongst the tools or spattered onto the junk. In these 5 days of poring over every single item and bleaching it all, neither of them notice the bullet and neglect to pick up the shells.

But the real kicker? Let's say that the Avery's are forensic savants and managed to completely wipe the crime scene clean.

Why is Steven's DNA still all over the garage?
 

PopeReal

Member
Its even more insane than that. According to the prosecution Teresa was shot 11 times in the garage. There should be blood, brain matter, bone fragments EVERYWHERE. Then the two 70 IQ suspects meticulously manage to bleach the entire garage clean. Not even a single follicle of her DNA remains. Not in the cracks in the cement, not a droplet hidden amongst the tools or spattered onto the junk. In these 5 days of poring over every single item and bleaching it all, neither of them notice the bullet and neglect to pick up the shells.

But the real kicker? Let's say that the Avery's are forensic savants and managed to completely wipe the crime scene clean.

Why is Steven's DNA still all over the garage?

It never really makes sense. And why would he kill her in the garage and then put her in her own car? The burn pile is right there.
 
Just looking at the evidence we do have have, its clear that Teresa was, without a doubt, moved twice. Once, right after she'd been killed, in her own car. The collected pool of blood near a head wound in the back of her own car verifies this. There is no other reason to put her in the trunk unless you're moving her.

The 2nd move is when the ashes were placed at Avery's bonfire pit. The fact that woman's bones can be found at the quarry, and in a burn barrel behind the Janda's house, suggests that the order of events had to have been:

-Teresa is killed by a gun shot to the head. The leftover blood in her trunk reinforces this, as well as the forensic evidence found on the pieces of her skull that were identified in the burn pile.

-Her body is taken to the quarry, where it is initially burned inside the Janda burn barrel.

-The Rav4 is transported to the edge of the Avery property, where it is barely covered up, and left there.

-The perps then transport those ashes to Avery's bonfire, knowing he had ashes there. If the suspects are who I think they are (Steven's brother + Scott), that would explain how they knew he was having a bonfire (they live at the same compound) and that dumping it in those bonfire ashes was a perfect dumping spot. They also had a motive to screw over Steven.

The fact that female bones were found at the quarry and in the burn barrel at Janda's suggests the quarry was the original burn location, and the barrel was the transport method to Avery's bonfire. The bones are basically a breadcrumb trail. The exact timeline doesn't even have to be that very same night, mind you. Some things could've happened over a period of time.

What we do know is that on 11/3, 3 days after Teresa goes missing, Detective Andy Coulbern puts in a dispatch call matching Teresa's car, two days before the vehicle is discovered. He has no explanation for this event. Here's the problem - if Coulbern admits he found the vehicle on 11/3rd on Avery's property without a search warrant, then its considered an illegal search, and the vehicle cannot be used as evidence in the trial. Remember, the vehicle was not found until the Avery's gave their consent that the junk yard could be searched, thus making its discovery legal.
This is where, I believe, two things happen.

1) Coulbern tells someone in Manitowoc Sheriff County's office, most likely Lenk, that he has found Teresa's car on Steven Avery's property. This would explain why when Coulbern leaves to take a look at Steven's property, he never goes to the other place he was destined to go to that night on 11/3rd. Its likely at this point when Coulbern & Lenk decide to crack open the 1985 DNA evidence of Steven Avery's, and plant his blood throughout the vehicle. Again - we know that Avery's 1985 DNA Evidence is at Manitowoc County Sheriff's Office and was opened up illegally and placed back in its container, with a puncture hole on the top of Steven's blood vile - so we have factual evidence that someone accessed it illegally.

2) Someone removes her rear license plate, and stashes it nearby but this happens AFTER Coulbern calls in the car to dispatch on 11/3. This is important because, going by the call to dispatch, I believe the license plates were still on the vehicle, and that he was directly looking at the rear plates (where he can see its clearly a RAV4) when he made that call. Now, whether he took them off or it was removed by the actual suspects afterwards is debatable. If I was a detective, I would want to leave the vehicle alone for a few days and observe who might go to it, hoping i'd catch my suspect.


This is the only timeline I can form given all the facts we do know.
 

Permanently A

Junior Member
Avery's counsel was involved in jury selection as well. I don't think we can really harp on Avery having an unfair jury. I mean, the jury system is kind of dumb, but it's the law of the land.

Just found this interview which addresses this.

He basically says that they can remove up to 6 potential jurors and they used all their strikes for the people they were most concerned about. But he says they're "left with some people you wouldn't necessarily pick."

That said he does give a good reason for not moving counties.
 
I made it up to Brendan's trial.

Jesus fucking Christ. If the WWE were to recreate Steve's trial, John Cena would no-sell the shit out of the prosecution's role. I honestly don't understand how anyone could convict based on the evidence shown, much less acquit on the second charge at the same goddamn time.

To bring in further allusions, Andy basically lived out a Coen brother's movie--so far in over his head, seemingly lead by a scary-as-fuck comically stern guy--only he got away with his bullshit.
 

Joco

Member
The forcing the woman off-road (not a strange woman; it was Sandra Miller, a far-removed family member who did not like the Averys & also was married to someone who is in the Sheriff's department) at gunpoint is explained in the very first episode, as it was him getting back at her for spreading rumors about him having sex with his first wife on his front lawn in front of the whole neighborhood. The gun was also not loaded, but thats neither here nor there - all of his violent incidents occur before he goes in for 18 years in 1985.

I'm well aware it was his getting back at her. That doesn't make it right, even if she did it. Forcing her off the road and pointing a gun at her, loaded or not, wasn't a good way to handle it.

I was simply agreeing with the person who thought that the documentary too easily dismissed his previous incidents. Relative to the Halbach case? Perhaps not. But as a judge of the character of Steven Avery, for who MaM clearly wants viewers to be sympathetic, his previous actions don't put him in a positive light.

Edit: Not saying he deserved to be wrongfully put away for those 18 years.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Just found this interview which addresses this.

He basically says that they can remove up to 6 potential jurors and they used all their strikes for the people they were most concerned about. But he says they're "left with some people you wouldn't necessarily pick."

That said he does give a good reason for not moving counties.
Yeah, lawyers can't sit there and veto every single person presented to them. That would inevitably keep the process from ever moving forward.
 

Kaiterra

Banned
Not trying to defend Avery here but I live close to the area and bonfires aren't all that uncommon, especially in months like September and October were it is starting to get colder in Wisconsin but not cold enough where people stay inside. Might seem convenient, but I think it could just well be coincidence.

Yeah I can vouch for that too.
 

DirtyCase

Member
I'm on episode 8 with my girlfriend. Aside from the botched investigation and most likely tampered with evidence, what seems the most suspicious for me is Bobby's testimony.

He said he saw Talbach walk towards Stevens trailer at 2:40 pm but he wasnt dropped off from school till about 3:30-3:40. It seems that Bobby and that other man both lied about when they saw each other based on this fact and are seemingly colluding together to provide false testimony. Both had access to the property, they both could've viewed Steven as a VERY easy scapegoat considering his past, and Bobby could have easily coached Brendan about what to say during the confessions (hard for Brendan, to get this right).

Brendan seems very conflicted throughout this documentary. Of course this is just speculation, but does anyone think it's possible that Bobby could have said "either you tell the police this story about Steven and you, or I go to jail" or something of that nature. Just some random thoughts.
 

Tuffty

Member
I'm on episode 8 with my girlfriend. Aside from the botched investigation and most likely tampered with evidence, what seems the most suspicious for me is Bobby's testimony.

He said he saw Talbach walk towards Stevens trailer at 2:40 pm but he wasnt dropped off from school till about 3:30-3:40. It seems that Bobby and that other man both lied about when they saw each other based on this fact and are seemingly colluding together to provide false testimony. Both had access to the property, they both could've viewed Steven as a VERY easy scapegoat considering his past, and Bobby could have easily coached Brendan about what to say during the confessions (hard for Brendan, to get this right).

Brendan seems very conflicted throughout this documentary. Of course this is just speculation, but does anyone think it's possible that Bobby could have said "either you tell the police this story about Steven and you, or I go to jail" or something of that nature. Just some random thoughts.

Dunno, Brendan just seems to crumble under pressure from his mum, so I imagine if she kept pressing him for answers, he would have said.
 

Erigu

Member
I wonder if the jury understood the problems with these tests.
Well, the prosecution certainly didn't help... I couldn't believe my eyes when the expert went ahead and showed a graphic that literally said "1) if we find some, there's some 2) if we don't, there isn't any". What the fuck.
 

Nyx

Member
I'm on episode 8 with my girlfriend. Aside from the botched investigation and most likely tampered with evidence, what seems the most suspicious for me is Bobby's testimony.

He said he saw Talbach walk towards Stevens trailer at 2:40 pm but he wasnt dropped off from school till about 3:30-3:40. It seems that Bobby and that other man both lied about when they saw each other based on this fact and are seemingly colluding together to provide false testimony. Both had access to the property, they both could've viewed Steven as a VERY easy scapegoat considering his past, and Bobby could have easily coached Brendan about what to say during the confessions (hard for Brendan, to get this right).

Brendan seems very conflicted throughout this documentary. Of course this is just speculation, but does anyone think it's possible that Bobby could have said "either you tell the police this story about Steven and you, or I go to jail" or something of that nature. Just some random thoughts.

My thoughts exactly.
 

y2dvd

Member
I'm inclined to agree with you.

I'm more or less just pointing out that I started out not liking the guy and ended up totally in his corner at the end of it. Though now thinking back on it and reading events not filtered throug the doc I'm not sure if I can belive Avery is really this simple, kind of sweet, guy he's dipicted as in the show. Doesn't mean he killed Terisa, but does make me understand why he had such a bad reputation. And to be fair reputation isn't fact either.

I mean, they also showed us back and forth letters Avery had with his first wife threatening to kill her. I just don't see how the show was as bias in Avery's favor as people claim. What I saw was Avery's demeanor at the time of recording and him claiming innocence of both trial. Strang even says the Avery you see in the doc is the Avery you get in real life.

Yall gotta remember this was a 6 weeks trial squeezed into a 10 hour documentary. Details will be missed, but did they showcase all the key or reputable (or not so reputable) points? I felt they did.
 
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