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[Ether_Snake]

Why are you talking as if the benefit of the doubt is with the prosecution? They're the ones that have to prove guilt, the defendant doesn't have to prove innocence. "It's possible/probably/could have/very likely" don't fly when we're talking about locking someone up for their entire life.

I'm talking about the reasons people here are saying those points point to Avery not being the likely murderer, I don't care about the legal part since that's that, not going to argue about it.

 

[LordRaptor]

Questionable evidence is left for the jury to decide. In that sense, he did have a full and fair trial even if we wouldn't have voted the same way as the jury.

The problem is when you have evidence that probably should be ruled as inadmissible allowed to be presented, and things that contradict other evidence being ruled inadmissible.

Calls made by judges can directly influence the narrative presented to a jury, and judicial error - although it should be grounds for appeal, if not more severe actions like penalties against the judge that made those decisions - is almost never a viable grounds for appeal, because most judges don't want to open themselves or their peers up to scrutiny over their every decision.
Which is understandable in one sense, in that it maintains the authority of the role of Judge. On the other, if you're fucked over by it, you are fucked over by it.

 

[Nafai1123]

I'm talking about the reasons people here are saying those points point to Avery not being the likely murderer, I don't care about the legal part since that's that, not going to argue about it.

We're talking about reasons Avery deserves a new trial regardless of innocence. You and others are saying you don't care because you think he's guilty.

 

[Sephzilla]

For what it's worth I do think he's guilty but he does deserve a new and clearly more fair trial

 

[CHC]

I don't think anyone argues that he didn't kill her. He totally did. But the cops might have tampered with evidence, and had big conflicts of interest, which makes the whole trial a sham sadly. They decided to steamroll him because of a past case of which, he actually was innocent of.

I mean, yeah that was my takeaway from the whole thing. I think he did do it, but I also think heavy tampering occurred because they hated him and were afraid they couldn't nail him on what they had.

 

[Ether_Snake]

We're talking about reasons Avery deserves a new trial regardless of innocence. You and others are saying you don't care because you think he's guilty.

Show me where I said he's guilty?

 

[Skellig Gra]

For what it's worth I do think he's guilty but he does deserve a new and clearly more fair trial

Is that even possible at this point? The documentary has biased people both ways.

 

[Sephzilla]

Is that even possible at this point? The documentary has biased people both ways.

Yeah, I have no idea how he can get a fair trial at this point. The jury screening would pretty much have to open with "Have you ever subscribed to Netflix" and exclude anyone who says yes

 

[Kill3r7]

Is that even possible at this point? The documentary has biased people both ways.

Anyone who has seen or heard about the documentary or case won't be an eligible juror.

 

[Nafai1123]

Show me where I said he's guilty?

Sorry, guess you were just coming up with hypotheticals as to why he is guilty for...reasons.

Anyone who has seen or heard about the documentary or case won't be an eligible juror.

Anyone who had watched the news and seen Kratz' briefing prior to the trial shouldn't have been eligible either.

 

[Tapioca]

This post is why people hate some animal lovers.

Has absolutely nothing to do with animals. If you burn a cat alive you will have no problem burning a human alive. It's an extreme act of violence and torture that a non-psychopathic human being would not commit. Almost all serial killers start with animals.

 

[gohepcat]

People put way too much faith in Netflix documentaries.

I think The Thin Blue Line might have caused more harm than good.

 

[Erigu]

How could he know the cops wouldn't go for him?

Ah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that he would have known that.

He had to take all the necessary steps to hide the crime, or got extremely lucky, or coordinated with the cops. All unlikely.

Might not be all that unlikely, actually, not even the last part... You should check Zellner's filings from a few months ago.

 

[Nafai1123]

People put way too much faith in Netflix documentaries.

I think The Thin Blue Line might have caused more harm than good.

Too much faith in a documentary that benefits in no way vs too much faith in a criminal justice system that's been shown to be corrupt and benefits from him being found guilty.

I think hero worship of police might have caused more harm than good.

 

[Skellig Gra]

People put way too much faith in Netflix documentaries.

I think The Thin Blue Line might have caused more harm than good.

Never even heard of The Thin Blue Line

 

[Betty]

Never even heard of The Thin Blue Line

Kinda kickstarted crime scene reenactments and thanks to the film it had major repercussions on the actual case.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Sorry, guess you were just coming up with hypotheticals as to why he is guilty for...reasons.

Hypotheticals that would offer a counter point to those saying those points show he is not guilty. So no, I don't consider him guilty or not, I don't know.

And I'll add this; someone would have had to have access to her keys, it's unlikely she would have removed all other keys, no other keys were found ever, the one key that was found is the so called valet key not the main one, so unlikely again that if she had only the car's key on her that she wouldn't have kept the main one instead. All this points to someone taking her key set, removing the others, keeping whichever works to drive the car, gets rid of the others just as all her other belongings.

Now somehow the cops would have had to get that key at some point, remove the other keys for no reason if the other keys were present, not plant it on their repeated searches, but instead hand it over to an independent investigator who would then plant that key. That's many layers of reaching. It becomes one heck of a conspiracy.

Is it surprising that they didn't find the key initially? Yes, but that depends on what kind of search took place, investigators will not always move everything, they will usually secure the location, and then it may stay as such for a while. I'm not familiar with the number and thoroughness of the searches they carried in that specific room.

 

[Kill3r7]

Anyone who had watched the news and seen Kratz' briefing prior to the trial shouldn't have been eligible either.

Yep and if proven to influence the jurors (actual bias) it can be grounds for a retrial but note that courts tolerate
some imperfections.

Never even heard of The Thin Blue Line

Watch it. It is well worth your time.

 

[captive]

I think anyone who burns a cat alive should be in prison for life. They are a danger to all animals and humans.

The documentary was extremely one sided anyway. There is a ton of evidence that the documentary left out that sure makes it look like he did it.

People watch a documentary and then think they are an expert on the case...... um.. sure you all are.

I hope you all didn't watch "Loose Change".

do you understand how ridiculous you sound? He burned a cat he's clearly guilty! You idiots that watched the documentary are wrong!

Many of us did watch the documentary. Not all of us are taking it at 100% face value. Can you explain to me how Avery was the only suspect ever investigated? Do you know how often on Investigative Discovery shows about murder involve the spouse or lover? Do you know how exceedingly rare it is for someone to be killed by someone that they dont have any sort of relationship with?

Whats Avery's motive? Dude just got out of jail for a wrongful conviction, so now he's going to do something for real?

 

[Sapiens]

Avery, I couldn’t give the shits about, but Dassey needs to be out.

And if there’s one kid in Dassey’s situation, there’s a thousand.

 

[Nafai1123]

Hypotheticals that would offer a counter point to those saying those points show he is not guilty. So no, I don't consider him guilty or not, I don't know.

And I'll add this; someone would have had to have access to her keys, it's unlikely she would have removed all other keys, no other keys were found ever, the one key that was found is the so called valet key not the main one, so unlikely again that if she had only the car's key on her that she wouldn't have kept the main one instead. All this points to someone taking her key set, removing the others, keeping whichever works to drive the car, gets rid of the others just as all her other belongings.

Now somehow the cops would have had to get that key at some point, remove the other keys for no reason if the other keys were present, not plant it on their repeated searches, but instead hand it over to an independent investigator who would then plant that key. That's many layers of reaching. It becomes one heck of a conspiracy.

Is it surprising that they didn't find the key initially? Yes, but that depends on what kind of search took place, investigators will not always move everything, they will usually secure the location, and then it may stay as such for a while. I'm not familiar with the number and thoroughness of the searches they carried in that specific room.

The fact that it was a valet key could also indicate she didn't have it on her at all, as there's little reason to carry a valet key around with you. That key could have been recovered from elsewhere, like perhaps her house.

I'm a bit rusty on the specifics, but IIRC the Manitowoc sheriffs found the key, after the independent investigators has already been through. They also claimed that they just "found it" lying on the floor.

 

[Infernostew]

The fact that it was a valet key could also indicate she didn't have it on her at all, as there's little reason to carry a valet key around with you. That key could have been recovered from elsewhere, like perhaps her house.

I'm a bit rusty on the specifics, but IIRC the Manitowoc sheriffs found the key, after the independent investigators has already been through. They also claimed that they just "found it" lying on the floor.

This is after closing off his family property and searching for over a week. You'd think they would've turned his room upside down since it was the alleged place the murder occurred.

 

[captive]

The fact that it was a valet key could also indicate she didn't have it on her at all, as there's little reason to carry a valet key around with you. That key could have been recovered from elsewhere, like perhaps her house.

I'm a bit rusty on the specifics, but IIRC the Manitowoc sheriffs found the key, after the independent investigators has already been through. They also claimed that they just "found it" lying on the floor.

the key shouldn't have even been admissible given who found it, since they were not supposed to be involved in the instigation at all.

 

[Nafai1123]

This is after closing off his family property and searching for over a week. You'd think they would've turned his room upside down since it was the alleged place the murder occurred.

Exactly, they searched his trailer multiple times before the sheriffs (who shouldn't have even been there) just went "hey, what's that on the floor?"

Sketchy as fuck.

 

[Ether_Snake]

The fact that it was a valet key could also indicate she didn't have it on her at all, as there's little reason to carry a valet key around with you. That key could have been recovered from elsewhere, like perhaps her house.

I'm a bit rusty on the specifics, but IIRC the Manitowoc sheriffs found the key, after the independent investigators has already been through. They also claimed that they just "found it" lying on the floor.

Yes that's possible, but in that case they presumably had either a double key holder that matched the one she had, or she had two but only had one key on it which is also unlikely. This key was either used as a spare not part of the other keys, but still had the same key holder, or it was with the others but then removed.

And again I found no info about how many searches were carried in that trailer specifically, and how the searches were carried out.

 

[TimmmV]

For what it's worth I do think he's guilty but he does deserve a new and clearly more fair trial

Do you think this is remotely possible given how much the general public knows about this trial now?

 

[LordRaptor]

IIRC the Manitowoc sheriffs found the key, after the independent investigators has already been through. They also claimed that they just "found it" lying on the floor.

IIRC, it was one of the sheriffs who were actually personally liable for a portion of any wrongful conviction damages in any payout that would have ensued too

 

[captive]

Yes that's possible, but in that case they presumably had either a double key holder that matched the one she had, or she had two but only had one key on it which is also unlikely. This key was either used as a spare not part of the other keys, but still had the same key holder, or it was with the others but then removed.

And again I found no info about how many searches were carried in that trailer specifically, and how the searches were carried out.

http://stevenaverycase.com/timeline-of-halbach-case/#sthash.UiUECprJ.dpbs

its all here.

 

[plagiarize]

Yes that's possible, but in that case they presumably had either a double key holder that matched the one she had, or she had two but only had one key on it which is also unlikely. This key was either used as a spare not part of the other keys, but still had the same key holder, or it was with the others but then removed.

And again I found no info about how many searches were carried in that trailer specifically, and how the searches were carried out.

I don't think Avery is innocent. Let's put that first.

But they never looked at anyone else. Doesn't that strike you as strange? They never even interviewed the boyfriend. They only wanted Avery. Which is why they shouldn't have been anywhere near the investigation in the first place.

It's not hard to understand. When the police fuck up the investigation, the person, guilty or not, should go free. If your key piece of evidence was demonstrated to be illegally attainted the case should be thrown out.

 

[captive]

I don't think Avery is innocent. Let's put that first.

But they never looked at anyone else. Doesn't that strike you as strange? They never even interviewed the boyfriend. They only wanted Avery. Which is why they shouldn't have been anywhere near the investigation in the first place.

It's not hard to understand. When the police fuck up the investigation, the person, guilty or not, should go free. If your key piece of evidence was demonstrated to be illegally attainted the case should be thrown out.

didn't they also use Dassey's coerced confession as evidence against Avery?

 

[plagiarize]

didn't they also use Dassey's coerced confession as evidence against Avery?

I'm not sure. I remember them putting forwards two different versions of events for both trials to maximise how guilty each person was though.

 

[killdatninja]

I'm kind of torn on this, Steven Avery is a piece of shit, regardless of whether he did it or not.

On the one hand, the trial and the case in general was a shit show from the start, poorly handled and was guilty until proven innocent. On the other hand, he's not a good human being, he has serious mental health issues.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

One way to think about the situation is to imagine what would happen if a dead delivery driver was found on your property and the last recorded delivery they made was to your home. Should that fact alone be enough to establish your guilt and justify illegal tampering of evidence since you "shouldn't get away with it"?

The legal system does not and cannot operate on the basis of 'best guesses' or 'who else'. This means there will be situations where the answer to the question of guilt must be "we don't have enough evidence" or "we don't know definitively". If you want to avoid a system that routinely imprisons the innocent that means accepting that the guilty are going to walk free occassionally.

That's the cost of a system that errs on the side of protecting the innocent.

 

[robochimp]

How could he know the cops wouldn't go for him?

He had to take all the necessary steps to hide the crime, or got extremely lucky, or coordinated with the cops. All unlikely.

So let's say the murderer is someone other than Avery. They don't necessarily need to be setting out to pin it on Steven. They hid a car amongst a yard full of cars and burned the body and disposed of the remains.

Now enters the Manitowoc Sherrif's department. Day one Steven did it, and that's all they ever looked for. That taints the entire investigation. They turn the salvage lot upside down repeatedly and found nothing. Still Steven did it. They search again. Miraculously a deputy from the Sherrif's department that isn't supposed to be there finds a key. They find remains for some reason in two different places. The same Sherrif's department finds a bullet that was not from burned remains with Theresa's DNA, never any blood anywhere on site. Those pieces of evidence are all highly suspect.

Did the murderer even think they were going to get away with it? They burned a corpse and hid a car. The Sherrif's department bungled into doing the rest for them.

 

[Reptars Revenge]

I'm kind of torn on this, Steven Avery is a piece of shit, regardless of whether he did it or not.

On the one hand, the trial and the case in general was a shit show from the start, poorly handled and was guilty until proven innocent. On the other hand, he's not a good human being, he has serious mental health issues.

This post makes it sound like you know he had a completely unfair trial breaking all his rights but you are ok with it because he has severe mental issues and should be locked up.

 

[Hazmat]

didn't they also use Dassey's coerced confession as evidence against Avery?

I believe they did, though Dassey did not testify in Avery's trial.

 

[captive]

I believe they did, though Dassey did not testify in Avery's trial.

only an idiot would put that kid on the stand. Any Lionel Hutz could lead him into anything they wanted.

 

[robochimp]

I believe they did, though Dassey did not testify in Avery's trial.

They did not use anything from Dassey at Steven's trial. They tried and won convictions on two completely different murder scenarios.

 

[Ether_Snake]

So let's say the murderer is someone other than Avery. They don't necessarily need to be setting out to pin it on Steven. They hid a car amongst a yard full of cars and burned the body and disposed of the remains.

Now enters the Manitowoc Sherrif's department. Day one Steven did it, and that's all they ever looked for. That taints the entire investigation. They turn the salvage lot upside down repeatedly and found nothing. Still Steven did it. They search again. Miraculously a deputy from the Sherrif's department that isn't supposed to be there finds a key. They find remains for some reason in two different places. The same Sherrif's department finds a bullet that was not from burned remains with Theresa's DNA, never any blood anywhere on site. Those pieces of evidence are all highly suspect.

Did the murderer even think they were going to get away with it? They burned a corpse and hid a car. The Sherrif's department bungled into doing the rest for them.

It does appear the investigation was not conducted properly, but what were the chances that she would have a scheduled appointment with Avery, does meet him, turn up dead on his lot with her car there? There had to be coordination in relation to her visiting Avery on that day.

 

[Nafai1123]

It does appear the investigation was not conducted properly, but what were the chances that she would have a scheduled appointment with Avery, does meet him, turn up dead on his lot with her car there? There had to be coordination in relation to her visiting Avery on that day.

Her ex-bf saw her the day before she went to Avery's. He was in her house. Certainly possible he could've known she would be there.

Avery's past with Manitowoc police was not a mystery. It was in the news, as was his lawsuit against them.

Bus drive testified that she thought she saw Teresa's car driving down the road away from Avery's property, though she couldn't see who was driving.

Her ex-bf admitted that he was never even questioned as a suspect. They never asked him if he had an alibi for the day she died. They never asked him about the scratches/injuries on his hands.

He was also the one who found her car on their property, which happened to be far away from their houses and close to a backroad that was accessible without them noticing.

It's not impossible, or even that far out there, to think he could've killed Teresa elsewhere and brought the car/bones back to the Avery's property, knowing that the police would do everything they could to pin it on Steven.

 

[cwmartin]

The case should have been thrown out and redone the second they discovered the blood vial was tampered with. That's when I 'noped' that this was anything but a farce.

 

[captive]

They did not use anything from Dassey at Steven's trial. They tried and won convictions on two completely different murder scenarios.

which is ridiculous in and of itself.

 

[killdatninja]

This post makes it sound like you know he had a completely unfair trial breaking all his rights but you are ok with it because he has severe mental issues and should be locked up.

He had a unfair trial, but I'm not going to sympathize with him because he's actual human garbage. This goes beyond just mental issues, he has a long standing history of domestic violence (before AND after he was exonerated.. the first time), burned a family cat alive (the act alone is cruel if it was a random cat but he knew the cat for years...), robbed a bar and made verbal death threats to his wife/ex-fiance/cousin (the cousin death threat was what landed him in jail for 6 years!). Forgive me for thinking maybe this guy is better off in jail than the free world.

 

[CornBurrito]

Good.

Now everyone in the area is safe from death by fire.

You're amazingly shortsighted if you think only "Bad People Who Deserve It" are victims to injustice in the legal system.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Her ex-bf saw her the day before she went to Avery's. He was in her house. Certainly possible he could've known she would be there.

Avery's past with Manitowoc police was not a mystery. It was in the news, as was his lawsuit against them.

Bus drive testified that she thought she saw Teresa's car driving down the road away from Avery's property, though she couldn't see who was driving.

Her ex-bf admitted that he was never even questioned as a suspect. They never asked him if he had an alibi for the day she died. They never asked him about the scratches/injuries on his hands.

He was also the one who found her car on their property, which happened to be far away from their houses and close to a backroad that was accessible without them noticing.

It's not impossible, or even that far out there, to think he could've killed Teresa elsewhere and brought the car/bones back to the Avery's property, knowing that the police would do everything they could to pin it on Steven.

If he knew she was last seen at Avery's place, and Avery was well known, him going to his lot and finding the car there is not surprising.

But yes he should have been considered a suspect. If there was a new trial he she should have to testify.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Good.

Now everyone in the area is safe from death by fire.

My fucking god, please tell me you are 11, then I can be hopefull that you can still become resonable and grow up

 

[CornBurrito]

He had a unfair trial, but I'm not going to sympathize with him because he's actual human garbage. This goes beyond just mental issues, he has a long standing history of domestic violence (before AND after he was exonerated.. the first time), burned a family cat alive (the act alone is cruel if it was a random cat but he knew the cat for years...), robbed a bar and made verbal death threats to his wife/ex-fiance/cousin (the cousin death threat was what landed him in jail for 6 years!). Forgive me for thinking maybe this guy is better off in jail than the free world.

People with farm cats deal with the farm cat having kittens by killing the kittens. Not to mention the general horrors of factory farming. Are farmers sociopaths who shouldn't get legal justice if accused of a crime?

 

[Nappuccino]

Has absolutely nothing to do with animals. If you burn a cat alive you will have no problem burning a human alive. It's an extreme act of violence and torture that a non-psychopathic human being would not commit. Almost all serial killers start with animals.

And more people abuse and mistreat animals and don't go on to be serial killers.

 

[plagiarize]

which is ridiculous in and of itself.

Right?

But people will still defend the legal system because they don't understand that due process is for everyone, even people guilty of the crimes they are charged with.

 

[Erigu]

If he knew she was last seen at Avery's place, and Avery was well known, him going to his lot and finding the car there is not surprising.

They found the car really, really fast, considering how large the yard was. And that's just one of the many odd details about that car and how it was discovered...

Edit:
And they keep coming:
"We have a Brady witness who reported seeing Teresa's car after the murder partially hidden off of State Highway 147, and he reported it to (Manitowoc County Sheriff's Sgt.) Andrew Colborn in person," Zellner told Patch.
(That's the same Colborn from that part of the documentary.)