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Malaysia Airlines flight en route from Amsterdam shot down over Ukraine; no survivors
- Thread starter alfredofroylan
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WarMacheen
Member
Yep, Occam's Razor is a thing for a reason. Simplest explanation will mostly be correct. Obviously, we need more evidence to move from 95% certain to 100%, but the rebels did already admit shooting a plane down at the same time.
Unless you're suggesting that people from unknown origins managed to sneak into Rebel-controlled territory with a mobile SAM, with clear knowledge of how to operate such machinery, and shot down a flying object in the sky whilst disappearing into thin air... what exactly are you suggesting here?
Midnight Phoenix
Member
Problem is that Donetsk is under Russian control. You can not agree with me or whatever, it this is fact. They got weapon and supplies from Russia. They got money to be there. Yes of course there is locals who want to play "game" or think this must be Russia land. If Ukraine not started ATO and world community was silent, like it was with Georgia, they repeat what was done with Crimea. They are not rebels, they are paid mercenaries.
Im asking for evidence that Russia, not rebels, shot down a plane and is hampering investigators from getting into the crash site as per this post:
Anger towards Russia grows over MH17 crash
Bandit from the Donetsk People's Republic (Ukraine)--- ordering experts from the search area
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3vVKdB958&feature=youtu.be
Bandit from the Donetsk People's Republic (Ukraine)--- ordering experts from the search area
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS3vVKdB958&feature=youtu.be
I genuinely think Russia would do nothing right now. This is too sensitive. But it would be an interesting gamble. Not sure as a leader I'd know what to do.
TrueGrime
Member
I think you're being a little too naive trying to hammer home your point that there isn't 100% refutable evidence that Russia has ties to Pro-Russian separatists. Has Russia even condemned them for their actions? At all?
The war has slowly been moving towards an end. Ukraine has been pushing them back more and more everyday. "Rebels" are basically left in 2 major cities and one of those cities is on the brink of being liberated.
Russia has simply been doing all it can to make it go as long and as bloody as possible. The constant flow of weapons and soldiers was the only thing keeping it going. Now we wait and see if Russia will truly stop
That's just playing semantics. It is accepted fact that the rebels are a Russian proxy. They have Russian equipment, Russians in positions of power, Russians advisors on the ground...
I honestly doubt they would stop. If anything, this incident demonstrates that Russia has control over air transport in the region, which means they could ship material (and potentially personnel) in and out whenever they want.
I think for freddy, his only purpose is to try to find a way to absolve Russia of responsibility, no matter what. It's a consistent theme. It's not a search for truth so it is increasingly pointless to keep being logical in your approach.
That's rather implicating. Why wouldn't they allow observers near large parts of the wreckage? If it wasn't them, they would have nothing to hide.
You'd think that if it wasn't them, they would aid the investigation.
TrueGrime
Member
That would be very interesting. Right now the 'government' of Donetsk People's Republic (or at least the Prime Minister) is a Russian citizen. Either way, if it happened, it would be a lose-lose situation for Putin.
I imagine they would be very reluctant to commit ukraine forces close to the russian border, which they would have to do to cut the rebels off.
I'm not being naive at all I'm asking how the people calling for further sanctions and action against Russia will justify it. So far the people proposing such action are ignoring it. Thta's fine on their part to ignore it and continue posting unfounded propaganda but you also should be clever enough to see that's happening.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
You are utterly ignorant of the current battles over Luhansk then and the attempts over the last few days to do exactly that then yeah?
Are you actually aware of any of the current goings on in Ukraine?
Another question for you, who is Igor Girkin, what is his role, his past, and importantly, where is he from?
Just trying to gauge your current knowledge of the situation.
No, you keep being obtuse. People answer you, but that's not good enough for you.
Where is the evidence then? Link me to it if I missed it?
It's all around you open your eyes.
I saw what you posted and it can hardly be called evidence, sorry.
This women, is really really lucky.
From Daily Mail
An air stewardess has cheated death twice by switching shifts on both doomed Malaysia Airlines flights.
Tan Bee Jeok, 43, was supposed to be flying on MH17, which was shot down over Ukraine, and the missing airliner MH370.
Tragically, her husband, Sanjid Singh, who is also an air steward, died on the flight downed by a missile on Thursday.
Mr Singh, 41, had swapped flights with a colleague to fly on the Kuala Lumpur-bound Boeing 777.
From Daily Mail
An air stewardess has cheated death twice by switching shifts on both doomed Malaysia Airlines flights.
Tan Bee Jeok, 43, was supposed to be flying on MH17, which was shot down over Ukraine, and the missing airliner MH370.
Tragically, her husband, Sanjid Singh, who is also an air steward, died on the flight downed by a missile on Thursday.
Mr Singh, 41, had swapped flights with a colleague to fly on the Kuala Lumpur-bound Boeing 777.
The burden of proof is on you good sir. That's how this works, you don't believe me, do some research. I'm not here to link you anything, and you would likely dismiss it anyway.
Midnight Phoenix
Member
Sadly it's not true for our country. For example pilots fly only like 4-5 hours a week in best case or not flying several weeks, because there is no spare cerosene. People is trained on turned off stations, to not burn fuel etc. Main rule of the army is that you must be always busy. The last 23 years country was on path of destraction. Army was near illuminated. Big part of bases was closed. On army place, there come Internal Troops, because thief's in government can't use army for their protection. Near every president was pro Russian. They creates contracts that are absurd for our country. Every credit they got from Russia or other country just vaporized. Our medicine are dead, my friend lost his grandmother, because ambulance was without fuel, even if mmedicene is free on paper, you must pay money to get anything done. Everywhere bribery. You can kill some one, but if you have neighbor or some dollar behind your back, you can go free from this. People just get sick from this shit, so they just showed that. We want court, we want that our money from taxes was used wisely. We don't need branches for 100.000$ dollars each (hello Kharkov), or 15km of road that cost like autobahn and get repaired every month, because firm that do this is in posses is mayor. So we looked at Europe and asked, why we not living like them? Where our money, that we pay? Why this houses full of gold and for you, to be able to buy little house, you need to destroy your ass 10 years. We don't want to be like Russia. So we need guides from other countries, that can watch over our government, that they do not steal and do what they must to do. Eventually it will go down along chain. Corruption is too big in my country.
FreedomFighter
Member
How about a fine, level-headed article. I'm sure it will be unpopular here, but here it is anyways:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
What do you need as evidence Putin admitting he did it? he won't
You'd be amazing in a jury.
So he does want selfies after all.
Please link to that image instead of posting it in the thread. My kids were just in here and was very fortunate to have stopped scrolling down just before that image showed up. That would have been pretty hard to explain to a 10 year old and a 7 year old.
FreedomFighter
Member
Pretty much. Everyone knows exactly what happened before the investigation even occurs. Western press and US officials blaming Russia immediately, as if US has any credibility. I expected better from GAF but people here really hate Russia (although I understand that where some folks of from, they may have significant historical reasons to perhaps). But still, this is madness. Can we at least have an investigation first?
10 pages ago, I got jumped on for wanting to know if the tapes even authenticated. I'm still curious about that, btw.
And I really don't see what Russia or Ukrainian seperatists have to gain by shooting down that plane. I see what Washington and Kiev do though. That Pepe Escobar article made a lot sense. That's why it's his turn to be my new avatar, lol
The burden of proof is on me to prove Putin is stopping people investigating the wreckage, has full control over the area and therefore governments should get together and impose tougher sanctions?
Please...
Are you really telling me those pics are evidence. Did you look at them at all?
PS: Apologies to anyone who quotes me in the next while Its sunday afternoon here and I have to go out for a bit.
TrueGrime
Member
People will justify it with the tons of audio footage connecting separatist leaders with russian army officers, the fact that all or almost all of the separatist organizations are currently headed by russian citizens, the past evidence of Russia having a lot of influence over the rebels (as was demonstrated during the various hostage situations), the countless russian-manufactured weapons in the hand of separatists, that are growing more and more advanced as time goes by (while they're taking a battering in the actual conflict, and have stopped being able to seize ukrainian equipment a long time ago), the amount of evidence (growing everyday) of russian "volunteers" and equipment crossing the ukrainian border, and the analysis by the US army that the (russian-manufactured) Buk missile that shot down the airplane was fired from the middle of rebel-held territory, and that another missile that shot down an ukrainian airplane was most probably fired from inside russian territory (I'm in China currently, a bit difficult for me to find that link, will add it later if I get it).
How long did we wait to get "sure evidence" that the soviet shot down Korean Air Lines Flight 007? After the collapse of the soviet union, that's when they finally released the black box that they had confiscated and the rest of the evidence. Where you "wise" enough at the time too (if you were born), to wait for unassailable evidence before blaming the soviet? US, EU, japan and others have been piling sanctions in Russia for months, do you think they just do it for a laugh?
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
You somehow managed to mistype "a crazy crackpot conspiracy theory filled article full of bullshit, written by an analyst that works for Russia Today"
Impressive mistyping!
Gemüsepizza
Member
Pictures like that don't paint you in a good light, to put it mildly. It's stupid propaganda. If all those points were already proven, the international reactions would be quite different.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
tymoshenko gives no fucks
FreedomFighter
Member
I knew you all would shoot down the Asia Times article I posted for not following the GAF narrative!
Nobody is trying to hear anything that doesn't say: :Russia did it!"
Or god forbid entertain any other plausible scenarios.
Nobody is trying to hear anything that doesn't say: :Russia did it!"
Or god forbid entertain any other plausible scenarios.
Truth ...
key attributes of truth
Truth naturally excludes and is narrow...
2+2=4
not 5 or 100 or =....
truth is discovered and does not change over time...
Truth
Russian terrorists controlled the area where the missiles was shot from.
Russian terrorists supported by Putin.
Russian terrorists shot down flight MH17.
Putin is directly responsible for shooting down MH17.
Absolute truth is demanded in life.
freddy would only be convinced if he saw a photo of Putin personally shaking hands with the separatist leader, and even that would only be after Russian state run media told him the photo wasn't photoshopped.
When you're not searching for truth, evidence doesn't actually matter. So it's a fruitless exercise for those who are so diligently trying. Good effort though guys
haha awesome parody post
When you're not searching for truth, evidence doesn't actually matter. So it's a fruitless exercise for those who are so diligently trying. Good effort though guys
haha awesome parody post
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