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Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 ended in the Southern Indian Ocean
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aeroslash
Member
Usually it's pilot error due to a failure that complicates things or in extreme weather. The AF one in the end was a stalling error from the pilot, but it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't had an unreliable speed indication and they had not been inside of a thunderstorm.
And i'm sorry to say this, but i've seen 4 engine planes struggle to get high because of their weight. Yes, they are certified to fly at a certain altitude with a certain weight with only one engine, but that doesn't mean that if a 4 engine has 3 of them out during take off, it can turn around to the airfield. Heck, i've seen some of these planes with much less vertical speed than a pa-34!
aeroslash
Member
I don't know exactly the procedure for the 777 when the fuel supply freezes, but in other aircrafts some things can be done and i imagine it's the same for this one. Basically you have two things to do, get lower so the air temp is higher and get faster, so the skin friction with the air raises the internal fuel temperature.
Regarding the AF, the pitot tubes blocked due to the extreme icing conditions they encountered (first error), and the speeds were unreliable and they didn't understand it until way way too late (second error) and in between, many electrical errors happened due to the aircraft jumping in severe turbulence. All these situations lead to the pilots not reconizing a stall (even when the plane was saying it) and the junior one blocking the sidestick so it made it impossible to recover.
Take off wise it would suck to lose three engines and losing power during a landing can be quite dangerous, but you just made it sound like one small thing and the the plane comes crashing down.
I'm not quite up to speed on the A330 accident and while I won't comment on the pilots being bad because I wasn't in the cockpit nor do I know their thoughts the stall warning sounded for nearly a minute.
aeroslash
Member
Well..loosing 3 engines is not a small thing! It's extemely difficult to happen, i was just commenting on the redundancy you said.
On the 330 i don't think the pilots were bad, they just were on a extremely stressing situation. The stall was screaming, yes, but the speed was correct (due to the failure), so they could have thought the stall warning had a failure. And as i said, all of this inside clouds, jumping because of the turbulence.
I might have gone a bit overboard when I talked as if three engines were plenty. I just remembered the Speedbird 9 where the crew said they'd limp around the island if they only got one engine.
The 330 pilots were clearly confused and it reminder me of this crash. I know too well when your mind get's too obsessed on one thing and block out all the other possibilities.
Finaika
Member
Me too.
eot
Banned
The specifics of the AF447 crash scare the crap out of me. Instrument failure during night time, ugh.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
This is so awful. 
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
While a car crash might be statistically far more probable, it's probably perceptually less horrifying as a disaster simply due the causality volume (as grim as that sounds). It's one thing to be inundated daily crash reports increasing the yearly road toll, separate events mounting up single digit causalities to a larger number. But it's another to have one commercial airline disappear into the ocean and take with it 200+ lives. The initial and sometimes ongoing mystery and confusion surrounding the event does a number on you too. Road disasters tend to take places on busy stretches, are quickly seen and reported, even if fatal. Airline's disappear, into mountains and oceans, with nobody around to see. The disaster is known not because someone witnessed, but because tracking systems failed to detect the aircraft's projected path. What follows is the terrible and occasionally months long process of investigating what went wrong and who, if anybody, can be recovered. AF447 is particularly horrifying to me: instrument failure fatally worsened by pilot error, 228 people dropped at 280 km/h right into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, 1000+km from the shore. Guh.
Tragic
Tragic
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I know, but it's the context that makes it the thing of horror stories, less so the relevance. As yeah, in reality the impact would have almost certainty killed all on-board instantly as the aircraft totally disintegrated. It's a quick death perceptually scary for the living.
SporeCrawler
Member
the two people were also alive but were killed by a ambulance running over them or something...
Can't imagine many worse things than on top of the huge suffering because of the loss, having to go look at countless dead bodies until you find and point out your beloved family member. Sigh.
DiscoJer
Member
There is also a terrifying moment between when you known something is wrong with the plane and the crash itself.
I was on a flight where one of the two engines blew up. That was pretty terrifying, even though we didn't go into a dive or anything. Of course, didn't help that I had the window seat over the wing where the engine was.
By contrast, you have what, maybe 5 seconds of terror because a car crash.
I was on a flight where one of the two engines blew up. That was pretty terrifying, even though we didn't go into a dive or anything. Of course, didn't help that I had the window seat over the wing where the engine was.
By contrast, you have what, maybe 5 seconds of terror because a car crash.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Fuck indeed
That sounds terrifying.
AF447 was pilot error, pure and simple. the airspeed error was transient and is no reason to crash any aircraft.
he deeply stalled a perfectly serviceable aircraft.
btw just about all modern commercial jets have a thing called a RAT on them. it's a little propeller that pops out of the bottom of the aircraft and supplies power to limited systems (enough to fly the aircraft) in the event of all other power sources failing.
so total instrument failure is extremely rare. in fact the 777 has 5 power sources that need to be out before the RAT deploys.
I'm writing my thesis about a novel way of looking at accident investigation in aviation. Having gone through several accident reports I can only slightly imagine the fear when the victims realize something is wrong. The vocalized realization by the crew captured by the cockpit voice recorder is especially chilling. I fear the worst but hope for the best.
As for the safety in aviation, it is ever increasing. And while statistics don't mean a thing for those involved, they do show us that these tragedies luckily don't occur too often.
Taken from the ICAO safety report 2013
As for the safety in aviation, it is ever increasing. And while statistics don't mean a thing for those involved, they do show us that these tragedies luckily don't occur too often.
Taken from the ICAO safety report 2013
I'm writing my thesis about a novel way of looking at accident investigation in aviation. Having gone through several accident reports I can only slightly imagine the fear when the victims realize something is wrong. The vocalized realization by the crew captured by the cockpit voice recorder is especially chilling. I fear the worst but hope for the best.
As for the safety in aviation, it is ever increasing. And while statistics don't mean a thing for those involved, they do show us that these tragedies luckily don't occur too often.
Taken from the ICAO safety report 2013
I apologize if this is OT but wow, I didn't realize the numbers were so low. That is just incredible.
GlamFM
Banned
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Oh god. I hope she is okay.
aeroslash
Member
Not only. Although the error was huge, if the conditions weren't so bad, i'm sure they would have been ok. Someone doubts a pilot can't go out of a stall? It was because of the situation (severe turbulence, multiple electrical failures and blocked pitots) that they weren't unable to resolve the situation. I really thing saying it was pilot's fault is a little bit shortsighted.
Anyway, i don't think any of these happened to the 777. Anyone knows the weather report of that zone? If there were thunderstorme, some would have said it no?
Electrical emergency configuration is also very very rare, and as you said, you always have the RAT.
In the end we'll have to wait to the first reports..
I'm flying a long distance tomorrow and ever since I read this news when it broke out yesterday I've been feeling crappy. Not the first time I'm on an airplane nor am I usually nervous when I am on one but stories like these don't help, especially not the day before your flight.
Rip to passengers that didn't make it.
Rip to passengers that didn't make it.
That is pilot error. I know because my cousin is a pilot on transatlantic flights, he tells me that if he sees a storm, he'll never fly into it, he'll either climb above or go around, no matter how big it is, even if this means he'll have to divert and land somewhere else.
These days, planes are usually very safe and most crashes are due to pilot error...I would not be surprised if this crash is PE or an external factor such as terrorism as well.
damn, hang on in there
Wind's Howling
Member
Goddamn. I hope the people in the plane did not suffer or drowned. Scientific fact usually dictates that the crash alone kills or knocks people out, but I would hate for people to stay alive and actually drown in their seats.
BBC reported that slicks of oil/fuel have been spotted in the sea, which could be related. There's no evidence of debris anywhere yet though. It's still totally unaccounted for at this point.
On a side note, Sky News said Italian media were reporting that one passenger was travelling on an apparently stolen Italian passport. Which doesn't imply anything other than what is stated but may turn out to be of interest at some point.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
.... Damn
unlikely even in a scenario in which people survive the impact, modern planes have flotation vest for each passenger, they would stay floating until help arrive, I hope they made it but I fear not
So both the Austrian and Italian foreign ministries are apparently saying that neither passengers of those nationalities were on board the aircraft?
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b&opt=0
How short before landing? That's happened to me before probably no more than 75 feet above ground and it made my butt jump off my body.
Bizarre. Possibly an incorrect passenger manifest, or at least two people illegally on board? The latter would be a bit more concerning, unless this is a common occurrence.
I'm so sorry to hear that. I'm hoping for the best...
short sighted. FUCK ME are you an AF pilot.
I have not seen or heard a single defence of the actions of that crew at any time since the FDR info was released.
he did exactly the opposite of what he should have done. he pulled back the stick, they got to 40 degree angle of attack. the computer freaked out, and kept it pulled back to attempt to climb all the way down. The captain who came back realised too late wtf he was doing, because they didn't expect him to be doing what he was.
the stall warning went for 54 seconds. a stall sounds, you put the nose down to gain speed. you don't go, ah fuck, i'll just edge the nose up some more. you wouldn't get your PPL if you did that, never mind flying a RPT jet.
all he needed to do was maintain the attitude. even with an absence of reliable speed data the aircraft would have continued to fly.
it was a gross pilot error. GROSS. a massive failure and a failure of AF to train their pilots to deal with a not uncommon occurrence.
I'm usually not one to call pilot error. but that was a gift wrapped case of pilot error. nothing else. can't blame the wx, the aircraft, the gods, butterflies in bolivia, nothing else but gross and fatal incompetence.
aeroslash
Member
Yes, the first error was getting into a storm. But sometimes you cannot climb above them, specially in the equator, where the AF accident was.
What i wanted to say is that in any case it is not as easy as to say it was just a pilot's error because the situation gets so complex that the crew can't solve the situation when in normal circumstances they have could.
If this has anything to do with a pilot's error, i'm sure there were many warnings or problems to solve before doing the fatal error.
I'm a pilot btw.
that could have been anything. esp in Thailand. e.g. a dog on the runway. a flock of birds, cattle, ATC error, even a fubar approach.
Messofanego
Banned
Yeah I really hope this isn't what people take away from this. It's irrational to think like that. Calm down and take emotion out from your judgements.
aeroslash
Member
If it wasn't for that weather, that accident would have never happened.
Going out of a stall is a very easy thing to do, and you do it many times to get the ppl, imagine the times you do it until you fly a jet. I'm sure he knew how to get out of a stall, but you have to take into account the severe turbulence, the unreliable speed indication (which they were not aware off) and the multiple failures of the aircraft.
When you're falling, with the stall warning sounding but the speed indication is normal (cause it was faulty), with many failures and the plane jumping like crazy i'm sure it was not so easy to think they were really in a stall. It is very easy to talk about it know and say what we would do, but i'm sure in that situation it wouldn't.
Anyway, let's not derail the thread more.
You hear the stall warning, you push the nose down, I'm sure they teach this in your first flight lesson. AF447 was gross pilot error.
I know this, pilots these days will first try to use the gps app in their smartphones when the aircraft speed indicators are wonky...You don't disturb an aircraft's flight just because some instruments stopped working.
aeroslash
Member
That wasn't what happened...
Anyway, it would have been nice if you were in the cockpit so you could solve it so easy. Funny thing neither a senior fo nor a captain could.
Stuff like that actually happens a lot and you don't hear about it, because the pilots fly the plane and land it successfully before telling maintenance to get it fixed.
GungHo
Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
Yeah, MAS is not a regional. I've taken them a few times on business trips.
While a car crash might be statistically far more probable, it's probably perceptually less horrifying as a disaster simply due the causality volume (as grim as that sounds). It's one thing to be inundated daily crash reports increasing the yearly road toll, separate events mounting up single digit causalities to a larger number. But it's another to have one commercial airline disappear into the ocean and take with it 200+ lives. The initial and sometimes ongoing mystery and confusion surrounding the event does a number on you too. Road disasters tend to take places on busy stretches, are quickly seen and reported, even if fatal. Airline's disappear, into mountains and oceans, with nobody around to see. The disaster is known not because someone witnessed, but because tracking systems failed to detect the aircraft's projected path. What follows is the terrible and occasionally months long process of investigating what went wrong and who, if anybody, can be recovered. AF447 is particularly horrifying to me: instrument failure fatally worsened by pilot error, 228 people dropped at 280 km/h right into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, 1000+km from the shore. Guh.
Tragic
I guess once you experience a car crash, that perception is changed. When a drunk driver hit me head on and put me in the hospital clinging for life, I'll never forget the moments after the crash. The smell of burnt tires, metal and pavement. The moments when I accepted I was dying and would likely be dead. It stays with you forever. And when you have friends that get their bodies torn in half because the front car smashes into them, you don't forget that either.
Yeah I'm appealing to emotion here. But my point is, so is thinking about how horrifying a plane crash is. Fact still is, more people die daily from car crashes. You are more likely to know people that die from cars than planes. And you yourself are more likely to die from a car crash. And car crashes are violent and horrifying too. It all sucks, and it often deprives person of any control.
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