Midnight Phoenix
Member
Wow, I hear about muslim problem in England, but this is going too far. I know several people in England, and they are not happy about emigration problem.
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Man dead after 'knife attack' in Woolwich
- Thread starter Fergie
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Wow, I hear about muslim problem in England, but this is going too far. I know several people in England, and they are not happy about emigration problem.
Q
Queen of Hunting
Unconfirmed Member
so the two people kill a man serving the country, and the killiers are then rushed to hospital and will proberlly survive thats disgusting
Messofanego
Banned
Thank you for this. I don't see any good coming out of this combative arguing. Justice cant be done right now and parties like EDL are lashing out at anything nearby for some temporary consolidation.
This talk of tightening immigration and blaming moderate Muslims just will make everyone clam into their shells. I hope calmer heads prevail.
Wickerbasket
Member
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Are we just supposed to leave them to bleed out in the streets?
um, it was. Happened about a month ago and the police & local mosque leaders dealt with them as they deserved. The video you linked to is from the Telegraph, i.e. mainstream media.
"muslim problem"?
90TilInfinity
Member
I'm not sure how taking aggressive action towards a religious community due to a minority within is considered a reasonable solution. Has peace by force within a nation ever worked? I'd genuinely love some examples. I'd imagine being marginalised, and making bigots like the EDL feel justified would incite more hate in a young Muslim mind than any school could. At which point you just create more isolation and a vicious cycle begins.
They're impressionable. It's that simple. I grew up in Woolwich, around alot of Somalian (& some Eritrean) Muslims, of which many were born abroad, and some of whom visit 1 of the 2 mosques within a mile of my house, yet the first terrorist scare in this town comes from a couple of seemingly London-born kids of West African descent.
Hopefully we can find out if they acted alone or on someone else's orders. I feel like this will be one of the bigger moments in this debate, especially going off their comments on why they did it.
Just like the other extremists though, they don't realise how far removed they are from the innocent people they claim to be avenging. Those women and children who get caught up in this bullshit would look at these two cunts in disgust.
They're impressionable. It's that simple. I grew up in Woolwich, around alot of Somalian (& some Eritrean) Muslims, of which many were born abroad, and some of whom visit 1 of the 2 mosques within a mile of my house, yet the first terrorist scare in this town comes from a couple of seemingly London-born kids of West African descent.
Hopefully we can find out if they acted alone or on someone else's orders. I feel like this will be one of the bigger moments in this debate, especially going off their comments on why they did it.
Just like the other extremists though, they don't realise how far removed they are from the innocent people they claim to be avenging. Those women and children who get caught up in this bullshit would look at these two cunts in disgust.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Like that man. Very articulate. Makes good points.
I don't agree that it is Islamic terrorism. He's pissed off at the UKs involvement in wars and stabbed and murdered a soldier. That's it. It's murder plain and simple. People have motives for murder all the time, wife cheating, pissed off at an insult, to claim insurance, because of the colour of some guys skin, because they're angry at the way some guy ran some company etc etc. What makes this terrorism instead of murder? Because the guy was a Muslim? Because his motives were in line with being against the war on Islam or those in Muslim countries (axis of evil etc)? The selective use of the word terrorism has a double standard slant to it.
The Incarnation
Member
An extremely poor supplier of gas and electric.
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
They murdered a dude to make a political statement. Sounds like terrorism to me. Same goes for Timothy McVeigh and Andrew Brevik.
with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public
'We want to start a war in London tonight'
If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.
Should we let terrorists get away with it? I don't know the right answer sometimes im so angry i think we need to bring back capital punishment
She probably had a pie in the oven or something. Sometimes you have to prioritise.
Wickerbasket
Member
I doubt they're going to have a very pleasant time wherever they end up.
| Praxis |
Banned
Pretty damn brave, I don't think I'd have the balls to do that unless I was armed.
Edit: Just noticed you were on about the oblivious woman, not the crazy one that confronted them.
Terrorism is the act of group A attacking a population of group B so that the population of group B will become motivated to force the government of group B to cater to the demands of group A. In short, if you want your independence from a foreign nation and your last resort is terrorism you attack the population of the state to which you are subservient in order to gain your freedom from that state. The key difference between a crime and a terrorist act is that a crime does not promote a political ideology, i.e muggers do not give you pamphlets on WHY they mugged you but insurgents might. Also the attacker used the concept of first and secondary targets. In a terrorist attack, the victim is symbolic, Trade centers, embassies, soldiers etc. The intended recipient of the attacker's message is not the young man who they beheaded and hacked to pieces in the street but you. You're the one they want to hear their message, you're the secondary target of the attack. You're the one they want pressuring your government to give them what they want.
Now, from the telegraph interview:
I asked him if he did it and he said yes and I said why? And he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British soldier and I said really and he said 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.
Bad idea, martyrdom is the last thing they deserve, a lifetime of solitary confinement until we find something more suiting.
They've been arrested also no, not going to happen but thanks for sharing your opinion.
Yep. Seems like a couple of fucking dicks that decided to be dicks and wrap a reason around it.
The shitty thing is that people are already blowing it up and dropping their own agenda onto the back of it to make it into something bigger. This always happens and always creates more problems.
This country is fucked in many ways but I still believe that the majority are just trying to get on with stuff despite their (very minor) differences.
That being said, chopping a guys head off in the middle of the street is all kinds of fucked up!
velociraptor
Junior Member
This is how I feel as well.
A few weeks back a Muslim guy was stabbed to death by a racist in Birmingham. Why? Because he didn't like Muslims and was making his statement. Would you regard that as terrorism as well? Or just murder? What about the EDL running through the streets causing fear and terror and attacking police etc? Where do we draw the line? Why does the word terror only come up when it's a case involving Muslims?
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Yes.
Kinky John
Member
They're taking the streets back!
Jeez what do you think?
Just to come back to what I posted earlier:
I'm not going to criticise the Imam for condemning it. Good for him. But whenever there is something worrying in a Muslim community, and the local authority, the police or the government want to engage with the muslim community and work with them on a particular issue, they always go straight to the Mosques to suss out the opinion and consensus.
It's a fundamentally flawed approach to the very concept of integration imo. In order to promote integration and get a much wider viewpoint of the situation, going straight to the Mosques doesn't help us in this regard. It's also belittling.
Imagine going straight to the Synagogues/Churches/Temples to work with other communities. It just doesn't happen as often as it does when dealing with Muslim communities. There are better ways and methods to go about it.
But then again, this is a problem that is entrenched into the very core of religion in general, and particularly Islam. Believe what you are told by your leader, don't ask questions, this is right, they are wrong etc. It's a difficult system to break.
Now we finally get down to it. There is nothing more to say, except that you're factually wrong. This was an act of terrorism. And now it becomes easy to see when you feel persecuted so much when you incorrectly misattribute acts of terrorism, and then take issue to what the media correctly identify as acts of terrorism. BeerSnob already explained it. You need to pick up a dictionary and take the blinkers off.
That would be a hate crime.
If he was advancing a racist, and anti-immigrant message then absolutely it's terrorism. Scaring a group of people into forcing political or social change is terrorism. That doesn't mean they are, or have a terrorist group behind them. An example is McVeigh, definitely terrorist, with no real backing.
Well, as near as I've been able to research the EDL is close in spirit to maybe the KKK, which was and may still be a terrorist organization. Beatings, murder, intimidation of political figures and population as a strategy to achieve political goals fits the criteria. Certainly since the EDL seems marginalized politically due to low membership and lack of clout or soft power to get their demands met.
I, personally draw the line at murder or physical assault. Actually attacking people to scare them and those that support them. My old polisci instructors would groan at the simplicity of it, but they could never agree on the definition anyway. As for the Muslim thing, social distance and othering. No one thinks their culture engages in terrorism, that's always something done to them by "others".
Looks like this isn't the first time somebody pursued a crime like this either:
In 2007 anti-terror officers uncovered a plot in Birmingham to kidnap and behead a serving British, Muslim soldier.
And that's what makes it terrorism, he didn't just want the soldier dead or take revenge, it was supposed to serve a greater purpose.
In 2007 anti-terror officers uncovered a plot in Birmingham to kidnap and behead a serving British, Muslim soldier.
And that's what makes it terrorism, he didn't just want the soldier dead or take revenge, it was supposed to serve a greater purpose.
CyclopsRock
Member
I guess some people might think it's terrorism because one of the perpetrators immediately went over to a camera and said "We swear by the almighty Allah that we will never stop fighting you" and "You will never be safe." There are intricacies to be sure, but I don't think it's ridiculous or knee-jerky to think there's an element of terrorism - the desire to terrorise your opposition into concessions or outright surrender - motivating this attack.
Boy Wander
Member
Your first example is a pure racially motivated attack. No political motivation. Terrorism usually has a political motive. And terrorism isn't just attributed to muslims. The IRA for example, ETA in Spain are just a few examples from recent history.
I think the issue people are having is that traditional terrorist attacks are designed to kill as many people as possible and cause as much disruption as they can. The fact that they stood around and waited for police without targeting anyone else isn't behaviour you'd expect from a terrorist attack.
CyclopsRock
Member
That's not really "traditional" at all. The IRA would frequently phone in their own bombs to allow time to evacuate. (They didn't do this against military targets or non-military targets where there were a number of members of the British military, however). I think saying that terrorism "is" anything other than it's actual definition is pretty murky.
CyclopsRock
Member
I think it's also for those tasked with responding to the situation to worry about too, however. Motivations behind actions (and understanding these motivation) are the first step in working out how to respond to it.
True enough, but I'm presuming that a fair few of the posters here don't really remember the troubles that vividly. 9/11, 7/7, the Boston Bombings etc are more likely what comes to mind.
If this is what you're referring to, the it's still an open investigation with multiple lines of enquiries. It sounds like a complete clusterfuck of revenge attacks after revenge attacks and skirmishes between Muslims and far right white groups, including the EDL. Not good. But it seems fairly localised. Although I do not like the concept of hate crimes (why does it matter?), if this attack was indeed racially motivated then it would be classed as a hate crime, not an act of terrorism.
If the murderer had targeted an Imam, recorded the incident and told onlookers that this is what happens when Muslims invade our lands, and you will never be safe then it would be classed as a case of terrorism. See the difference?
That was not from a Mosque, it was a sermon delivered from a college. The point of it was to teach the students what those Muslim "vigilantes" did was fundamentally wrong Islamically.
In Islam, as I understand it, Mosques are not exclusively a place of worship, it is meant to be a community center as well. So I see no issues with going to public figures who play a important role in the community who also are apart of this community center, which is also a place of worship. In 2012, when the EDL came to "march" in Tower Hamlets the Police used the ELM, the East London Mosque, as a center for their operation throughout that day.
That's because Churches and Synagogues aren't community centers. Although I might be wrong about that.
Disagreed. Muslims are supposed to verify everything they are told. Yes, you listen to your teachers, but at the same time questioning things is also emphasized in Islam as seen in the Islamic texture.
I don't agree with this.
One guy kills a Muslim because he thinks Muslims need to be rid of - Murder
One guy kills a Soldier because he thinks other soldiers need to stop killing Muslims - Terrorism
The fact that this loon just killed a single person, and with a knife as well, I wouldn't class it as anything more than murder myself. When I think of terrorism I think of an act that actually inflicts terror to the masses, or seeks to injure or kill many. Was the murder horrific, sure, but people were standing around and even near the scene of the crime mulling about. Not really sure about the mass "terror" part. I think it's a very grey area at best.
wtf man...
he no feelin irie anymore tink I n' I
Thats really fucked up. I have no idea what I'd do with some sky wizard maniacs chasing me with knives
EDL and it's ilk make these sort of threats all the time, and I'm sure many have committed assault and a few maybe even murder. Are you suggesting the difference between terrorism and murder (under the guise of hate) is the off chance that someone might be there to record your political message or reasoning for the murder?
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
I'd run away screaming like a little girl.
CyclopsRock
Member
Murder and terrorism is not an either/or thing. A event or action can be one, both or neither. It's hard to argue, given his behaviour after the killing, that this man was not attempting to instil fear into people. Whether this primary motivation was political, religious, racial or just plain nuttyness doesn't detract from his methods.
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