PJV3
Member
It was on BBC London if I remember correctly.
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Man dead after 'knife attack' in Woolwich
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It was on BBC London if I remember correctly.
Gonna step in for a bit since there are concerns about this thread. Cyan can continue to handle this later when he has more time to look into the issue. I'm just going to make a more general statement about the discourse here on what is a rather sensitive issue.
I don't think it benefits anyone to encourage the state in targeting of any specific demographic in a non-constructive way. Immigration and integration are complex matters in many countries, and especially so in Europe, it appears that lapses in how it has been carried out over the years is starting to put some people on edge. This is understandable. But at the same time, it has never been the culture on this forum to permit people to take their personal fears and insecurity to lengths which result in vocal encouragement of things which would probably be bad for society as a whole.
Note that I use the term insecurity not in a belittling way, but as a fact - feeling helpless about a difficult situation and wanting to lash out and find an "easy" solution. It can happen to almost everyone to have irrational thoughts or irrational solutions for the sake of a perceived greater good.
Are there problems within parts of the muslim community? Yes. I think everyone acknowledges that. But that doesn't make the entire community accountable for what is wrong with it. It is also wrong imo, to say that the problem is only because the community does not do enough to moderate themselves. There is clearly a larger problem at hand if integration is not working well.
It's okay to discuss sensitive matters, as long as we keep in mind that we don't suggest measures which would only result in short term solutions (if even that) and more long term problems. That sort of discussion will only end with posters getting angrier and more offended by such opinions, and once it gets nasty everyone loses perspective on the original discussion completely.
I don't think it benefits anyone to encourage the state in targeting of any specific demographic in a non-constructive way. Immigration and integration are complex matters in many countries, and especially so in Europe, it appears that lapses in how it has been carried out over the years is starting to put some people on edge. This is understandable. But at the same time, it has never been the culture on this forum to permit people to take their personal fears and insecurity to lengths which result in vocal encouragement of things which would probably be bad for society as a whole.
Note that I use the term insecurity not in a belittling way, but as a fact - feeling helpless about a difficult situation and wanting to lash out and find an "easy" solution. It can happen to almost everyone to have irrational thoughts or irrational solutions for the sake of a perceived greater good.
Are there problems within parts of the muslim community? Yes. I think everyone acknowledges that. But that doesn't make the entire community accountable for what is wrong with it. It is also wrong imo, to say that the problem is only because the community does not do enough to moderate themselves. There is clearly a larger problem at hand if integration is not working well.
It's okay to discuss sensitive matters, as long as we keep in mind that we don't suggest measures which would only result in short term solutions (if even that) and more long term problems. That sort of discussion will only end with posters getting angrier and more offended by such opinions, and once it gets nasty everyone loses perspective on the original discussion completely.
Miles Quaritch
Member
CHEEZMO;58640229 said:
It's working for me, but try this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYRl_9QUjk4
Try to ignore the BS at the start of the video.
They are two distinct forms of the same thing. I don't deny that white men make up the vast majority of child sex abuse cases, but the gang related instances of abuse have gone unnoticed for too long.
I haven't got the time to do much digging, so these are some well sourced points from the wiki article:
- 33% of child sex abuse was committed by Asians in Britain, where Asians are 7% of the population, but concluded that it was "irresponsible" to dwell on the data. Source
- Tim Loughton, the Minister for Children and Families, stated that while there was no evidence that any ethnic communities condoned child sexual abuse, he was concerned that some had been slow to report it to the police, and urged police and social workers not to allow "political correctness around ethnicity" to hinder their work to apprehend such crimes.
- of the 56 offenders convicted since 1997 for crimes relating to on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16, three were white, 53 were Asian of which 50 were Muslim, most were from the British Pakistani community
- with the exception of one town there is scant evidence of work being undertaken in British Pakistani communities to confront the problem" of "pimping gangs" largely consisting of "members of the British Pakistani community
- Hilary Willmer, representing a Leeds-based support group for parents of sexually exploited girls, the Coalition for the Removal of Pimping (Crop), was quoted as saying "The vast majority [of] perpetrators are Pakistani Asians", with sources inside Crop claiming a percentage as high as 80 per cent (although, The Independent noted, "Kurdish, Romanian and Albanian gangs were also involved"). Willmer added: "We think this is the tip of the iceberg", though she cautioned against treating the matter as a race crime. "It's a criminal thing."[28] But by May 2012, according to The Independent, Crop had "gone suddenly silent" concerning the percentage of abusers of Asian origin who had come to the organization's attention: Willmer explained to the paper: "We've been accused of being a cover for the BNP"
- Wendy Shepherd, child sexual exploitation project manager with Barnardo's in the north of England, said that since she started working with the organization, there has “a shift from the men selling children in ones or twos to something that is much more organised in groups and networks. The networks of men come from different backgrounds: in the North and Midlands many have been British Asians; in Devon it was white men; in Bath and Bristol, Afro-Caribbeans; in London, all ethnic mixes, whites, Iraqis, Kurds, Afghans, Somalis.” She noted that white males who are predators on the street tend to work alone. She added: "The danger with saying that the problem is with one ethnicity is that then people will only be on the lookout for that group – and will risk missing other threats."
- The former head of Barnardo's, Martin Narey, said on BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "For this particular type of crime, the street grooming of teenage girls in northern towns … there is very troubling evidence that Asians are overwhelmingly represented in the prosecutions for such offences."However Narey rejected the idea that such gangs were specifically targeting white girls, but instead suggested vulnerable girls on the street were more likely to be white since Asian girls were subjected to strict parenting and so were more likely to be kept off the streets.
I agree, but none of that contradicts what I said. Saying that most child abuse happens within the family unit, but the more organised and gang related systems of child abuse tend to involve the Pakistani community more often, does not make any judgements about how we go about tackling child abuse in general. This viewpoint is corroborated to some extent in the above points.
I completely agree that the key is vulnerability, regardless of race or religion, but whereas the more traditional cases of child abuse have been within the family unit, which are still difficult to identify and prevent, what the Rochdale case has done is shed a light on how society perceives vulnerability. In the Rochdale case, the girls in question were not treated as being vulnerable, or credible at all. They were dismissed by the police and other agencies because they didn't fit the mould and the agencies were unsure of how to approach the case, and were even fearful about being perceived as racist. So the Rochdale case has just showed us another form of vulnerability which has gone unnoticed for a long time. I also agree that in the wider picture of child abuse, it's mainly committed by white men, especially those within the family unit. They're clearly very different forms of the same thing, and it's a matter of tailoring the response of social agencies and the police to better prevent and stop all forms of child abuse.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Guess that explains why I hadn't heard of this incident before. I really should start watching that more.
What the hell, there's more...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw2w7ACogaY
Muslim areas? Confiscating alcohol? Dress codes outside a mosque?
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
I don't know what I would do in the UK's position. Things are simpler here, we can at least trust our mosques and Islamic leaders and the community is generally eager to shed its stigma. Muslims face plenty of bigotry but they also get a lot of sympathy because much of the scrutiny they receive is legitimately unfair and people can see that.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Ducky, I completely agree with this sentiment, however, in the context of Britain this has basically been official government policy, right or wrong. Anyone who disagreed with the policy was basically shouted down as a racist for the past 15 years.
Self moderation of the community doesn't work, basically because people want to get on with their own lives and understandably don't want to involve themselves in any way with extremism. So the very people we rely on to make a difference, moderate Muslims, are the least likely to get involved. That is their prerogative and I completely understand it, but then they should not complain when the government intervenes. I don't think they would mind, but a lot of people do.
dripdripsplash
Member
Oh my God @ 3:00. Freaking nutjobs.
PJV3
Member
They shouldn't be hard to track down, the police should pull their finger out.
Undercover policewomen with cans of lager should do the trick.
The Incarnation
Member
There's not much you can do about. What else you gonna do start a race war? Pakistanis and Blacks for example don't exactly get on in Birmingham. Or do you think its just whites who get crap off some groups?
Sorry but it's just the life of the minority wherever you are, and if you happen to be white in a Pakistani area that's how it goes.
It's only when it happens to you, you give a shit, and want something done about. Easy to be completely self involved though.
Salvor.Hardin
Banned
Well this thread is a nightmare.
Some crazy loonies hack up a military personnel and we're having a conversation about Muslims in Britain?
Since we're generalizing, how in the world did Americans handle the Boston Marathon Bombings better than some of the Brits are reacting today?
Some crazy loonies hack up a military personnel and we're having a conversation about Muslims in Britain?
Since we're generalizing, how in the world did Americans handle the Boston Marathon Bombings better than some of the Brits are reacting today?
That's not quite right. The report says that 33% of gang-related sex abuse was committed by Asians, rather than as sex abuse as a whole.
This is a very reasonable point, but you find similar issues of silence and non-reporting in the majority of BME communities.
I think it's pretty clear that these cases are very much the tip of a large iceberg. Lord Morris said yesterday that 54 gangs of this type are being investigated, and while British Pakistani's are overly represented, a report from the Children's Commissioner for England has stated that abusers "come from all ethnic groups and so do their victims".
That study is massively disputed, and there's strong evidence to suggest that it was made to fit a certain agenda. The people who carried out the report said:
"But Brayley and Cockbaine, whose six-month study was cited as evidence, said they were worried that limited data had been extended "to characterise an entire crime type, in particular of race and gender". They challenged claims that white girls were deliberately sought out by offenders. "Though the majority … were white so too were the majority of local inhabitants." Comparing the percentage of white people in the areas with black and ethnic minorities, their data, they said, showed "black and ethnic minority girls over-represented among the victims".
This is my real concern with this. It's clear that this is an issue, but like I said, it's taking focus away from the bigger picture.
Lambda Pie
Banned
Middle Eastern and North African cultures are simply, most of the time, unable to mesh and adapt to European sensibilities and whatever sucess stories there are seem to be drowned by the negative ones, like this one and the Stockholm riots.
you can dance around with political correctness but that's what it is. it's simply too big of a cultural (religious, social, economical) clash and Europe, just not the UK, wasn't ready for it.
you can dance around with political correctness but that's what it is. it's simply too big of a cultural (religious, social, economical) clash and Europe, just not the UK, wasn't ready for it.
Ignis Fatuus
Banned
We've been discussing that at length.
PJV3
Member
We haven't started drawing red circles around random brown people yet, give us some credit.
they were sort of white so it wasnt a big deal.
Woah, woah, woah. It wasn't my intention to downplay racism against any group, nor was I suggesting it's somehow worse when it happens to white people.
It's not such a nightmarish leap if you phrase it 'Islamic terrorist attack in London leads to conversation about British Islamic community'. The thread is messy though, I'm with you on that.
They didn't? People were calling for Czechoslovakia to be bombed :lol
What about Brievick and all the white and even Chinese that have been involved in heinous acts, murders etc. How come when it comes to these people it's just mental illness or some other excuse but when it comes to a Muslim, it's all blamed on improper assimilation and religion. Sounds like a farce if you ask me, same racist double standards as always.
The reality of it is likely that this guy was mentally ill, and just happened to also be a Muslim. Like you can be a violent mentally ill person who kills dozens and be white, or Christian or whatever.
If the official government policy isn't working, wouldn't it be more constructive to look at the root problems of the policy, and debate about that? It's not an easy position to be, sure, but I think that trying to sidestep that entirely and directly going on the offense on a large community to try and "deal with the problem" will only make things worse. It pretty much always does.
What you're facing is a culture clash. People already feel like it's "us vs them" on both sides. Escalating this into actual enforcement targeting seems like a really terrible idea because the impact it will have on society at large is definitely going to be negative. Non-muslims who support this will get more suspicious, and more justified when the "numbers come in" from selective targeting enforcement. Muslims who are radicalized will dig in and feel justified in their holy war because they see themselves being directly attacked. Muslims who are just trying to live a normal life will be inconvenienced by the extra attention their community is getting, and might be wrongly targeted due to incompetence or actual racism at the enforcement level. In the end, everyone grows further apart, and the problem gets worse, not better.
I don't claim to know much about the exact problems the UK is facing with this issue, or the history of legislation which led to the growing problem, but I do know that certain roads are better left untraveled, for the sake of the future.
wtf man...
What happened is sad. I also feel bad that I read this entire page in Little Jacobs voice in gta4.
kurtrussell
Banned
The weirdest thing about the ITV footage is the part where a woman with her shopping just walks up behind the guy being filmed with a bload soaked machete.
Did she not notice the headless corpse in the middle of the road or the smashed up car? Was she in shock / denial? Was she just trying to ignore it? Was she so used to trouble in that area that it didn't seem such a big deal to her?
I want to know what's up with her. She seemed almost surreal.
Did she not notice the headless corpse in the middle of the road or the smashed up car? Was she in shock / denial? Was she just trying to ignore it? Was she so used to trouble in that area that it didn't seem such a big deal to her?
I want to know what's up with her. She seemed almost surreal.
This could start veering towards collective punishment. I'd hope we'd all agree that's a bad thing.
Apparently mental illness runs deep in the Muslim community...are shrinks haram? We need to get to the bottom of this!
Boy Wander
Member
There's a big difference between acts committed due to racism and persecution and religious terrorism. Racism and persecution and reactionary crimes will always exist to some degree in any mixed culture society, whether out in the open or behind closed doors. Religious terrorism has also existed for a long time but can anyone seriously tell me that it hasn't got worse because we (I'm british) insist on playing the holier than thou card and getting involved in shit we shouldn't be getting involved in? In short, there is a direct link between radicalisation and subsequent attacks by nutters and our own governments policies. I'm not condoning it any way whatsoever and it sickens me that my country has become a breeding ground for this sort of shit, but I can see how it happens.
Wasn't surprised to see the attacker had a London accent. Things just come to a head, we're not a country like the USA where large swathes of the country are proud to be American, or arguably some middle Eastern countries where people can be more tied to a religion rather than a national identity. We're a country that by and large hate ourselves; we moan and chastise and complain. And the ones that do love the country are either written off as right wing fuckheads or are actually right wing fuckheads. It's not even surprising to me to see that someone who has obviously been brought up in London - one of the most metropolitan places you could ever wish to imagine - identifies more with a foreign way of life than ours. We're identityless.
I've tried reading through the whole thread, it's a clustercunt of hyperbole, opinions and debates. Interesting though.
Actions of today are disgusting and I can only hope those responsible are punished for it irrespective of race, religion, colour or creed. What they did was a universal violation of your actions as a human being.
I've tried reading through the whole thread, it's a clustercunt of hyperbole, opinions and debates. Interesting though.
Actions of today are disgusting and I can only hope those responsible are punished for it irrespective of race, religion, colour or creed. What they did was a universal violation of your actions as a human being.
Or they are tied to other socio economic and education orientated facets. What you're suggesting is basically racist, and the same argument proposed by many against Blacks, Mexicans and all sorts of other more impoverished or struggling minority communities.
Haven't followed this thread much but this is just ridiculous.
Every week there are cases of white men being brought forward charged with rape as well. What does them being Muslim have to do with it?
Juventus fan
PJV3
Member
Come on.
The right moan about this country as much as anybody, from unions to the BBC.
I'm a lefty and love it besides the weather and 40% of the population
Actually even the weather has its charms.
Yurt pls.
Lambda Pie
Banned
you do know that...
... this happens because of improper assimilation.
make up your mind, friend.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Only Muslims? Or are you only paying attention to cases that involve Muslims?
Come on.
The right moan about this country as much as anybody, from unions to the BBC.
I'm a lefty and love it besides the weather and 40% of the population
Actually even the weather has its charms.
Well yeah, 99% of the right wingers in this country are wonderfully well disciplined because we're not really a people that rely on grandiose elections, four years of build up and everything associated with American politics; politics are seen in this country as relatively boring or at least everyone my age seems to think so, but they couldn't stop watching Obama vs Romney stuff (myself included!). So the majority of things we'll moan at, being of similar mind to each other, will be similar things.
But already I've seen a ton of tweets from English Defence League sympathisers, ignorant people, just general fucking turkeys who don't know a thing other than 'the killer was dark'. And yet they don't give a solitary fuck about the BBC, suddenly jump onto twitter and Facebook the second a soldier is killed as opposed to the soldier doing the killing. And all of these tweets and posts are either people coming off as bloodthirsty mongrels, or lamenting the state of our country. And from my experience its pretty much a lack of knowledge that culminates in events like today; when they can finally find something to latch onto and pretend they give a fuck about the country.
Maybe it's just everyone I know haha
Was going to post exactly this :lol
The Incarnation
Member
Fair enough, tbh honest I was merely using the lads experience as nothing special. I'm sure fat people have had more shit than me. Its unfortunate, but there's nothing that can be done about it.
I grew up with people who were racist and no longer are, and personally I don't view it as the worse thing a person can be. I look at it as more of a phase, it does get better though in time in my experience, The attitudes towards the Irish are the best example of that, followed by the Indians and blacks, and Poles here now as well.
Pakistani attitudes towards them and from them will take longer though because Religion is deeply ingrained in their culture, which further exaggerates the whole foreign thing, because its the religion which separates them from rest, in just about everything.
What I mean by suck it up, is that you have to ride it out sometimes. Nothing more, nothing less.
Liberty4all
Banned
In Canada it is considered borderline racist to argue that more stringent immigration laws are needed. Is it like that in the UK too?
One problem with rapid immigration is that doesn't give the incoming people time to assimilate with the host countries culture. That's when you get situations where you can walk into a part of town and nobody is speaking the host countries language, the signs are all in a different language, and in extreme cases you might get jumped.
The argument really is simply this:
Is it racist/prejudice for a host country to want to control immigration to a level that ensures those incoming have no choice but to assimilate (or at least try to)? I personally think not, however, I do think that in some western countries the pace of immigration has increased past the the point that the host country can assimilate immigrants quickly enough. Certainly in some western countries the pace of immigration has/is changing the culture of the host country completely.
One problem with rapid immigration is that doesn't give the incoming people time to assimilate with the host countries culture. That's when you get situations where you can walk into a part of town and nobody is speaking the host countries language, the signs are all in a different language, and in extreme cases you might get jumped.
The argument really is simply this:
Is it racist/prejudice for a host country to want to control immigration to a level that ensures those incoming have no choice but to assimilate (or at least try to)? I personally think not, however, I do think that in some western countries the pace of immigration has increased past the the point that the host country can assimilate immigrants quickly enough. Certainly in some western countries the pace of immigration has/is changing the culture of the host country completely.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Didn't take long, mosque in Essex attacked - Sky News.
The cases that involve Muslims. There are trends in that the rapists in each case are of Pakistani origin and the victims are white.
In general child abuse in this country is fucked up and the child welfare and the Police are incompetent, useless idiots to let this go on for so long.
BennBeckman
Banned
Ethnic minorities in the uk have had to face abuse on a regular basis. I myself have been attacked multiple times, been shouted at and sworn at. My mother has been spat on, stolen from and victimised by white people for years at work.
Sorry for our lack of sympathy though. We minorities can be so insensitive sometimes...
As I said muslims be careful. EDL on route to woolwich or already there. I hope they are ran out of town just as they were in Birmingham when the asians and blacks were not having there racists BS in there town.
Sounds like a couple of guys who lost their loved ones in the war and are now out for revenge :/
The cycle of violence never ends
He sounded like born and raised in the UK to me, radicalization can happen anywhere and to anyone, plenty of converts go straight to crazy fundamentalism because that's what appeals to their anti-Western sentiment and it certainly doesn't require experiencing harm by whoever they single out as infidels.
And even if he personally knew anyone that was killed by British forces that doesn't justify anything, a soldier is an employee, he doesn't go to war because he likes it, that's a Jihadist.
Joel Was Right
Member
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