Wind's Howling
Member
Now I understand why you are a Junior.
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Man dead after 'knife attack' in Woolwich
- Thread starter Fergie
- Start date
- Status
jufonuk
not tag worthy
I'm gonna bail out before I freak out,
Peace to everyone, enjoy the bank holiday those that have time off, I will be at work on sunday
until then i am going to enjoy my time with my GF(after I finish this shift that is)I hope/pray Woolwich/Eltham and other surrounding areas to not kick off this weekend.
Peace to everyone, enjoy the bank holiday those that have time off, I will be at work on sunday
until then i am going to enjoy my time with my GF(after I finish this shift that is)I hope/pray Woolwich/Eltham and other surrounding areas to not kick off this weekend.
Cpt.Underpants
Member
Oh fuck off
Bite your tongue chap, it ain't worth it.
Unlike others here, I am not trying to sell my way of thinking
I am just voicing my opinion on the story....
If you can't handle it then don't participate!!!
Otherwise don't insult me by telling me to fuck off...
I didn't say the guy that was murdered deserved it
I am trying to see things from the other side of the fence either you like it or not
I am just voicing my opinion on the story....
If you can't handle it then don't participate!!!
Otherwise don't insult me by telling me to fuck off...
I didn't say the guy that was murdered deserved it
I am trying to see things from the other side of the fence either you like it or not
jufonuk
not tag worthy
how?
-I got one foot in the door about to leave this thread I am standing here weighing up wether to be dragged back in or bail out.
Why start with Britain and the US, why not with Mohammed and his followers and their conquest of Arabia and then the rest of the Middle East, wars, violence, persecution, forced conversions (you do know the region was inhabited prior to the existence of Islam right?), followed by the Ottomans in southeast Europe and the Moors in Iberia...
Why does violence start with the US when shit has been going on in the Middle East for centuries before the US even existed?
Nicktendo86
Member
That's it, I am bailing out before I get banned.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
According to your logic, the war in Afghanistan is the Afghan people's fault because they allowed the Taliban to plan 9/11 from their country.
Ravensmash
Member
Did anyone catch Newsnight last night? They had a few good pieces about recent events actually.
piss off
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Oh wow. His parents must have been some piece of work.
Yeah. I suspect a lot of guys who champion radical Islam are more so on a selfish quest for significance, rather than genuinely attempting to make the world a better or more godly place etc.
Thank you for replying with an actual argument!!
Whatever has been going in the Middle East for centuries is not my concern.
My concern is that the US and Britain decided to take part on this violence that has been going on, thus creating problems for both Americans-British and Afghans etc etc....
So then why not blame the Afghans for the Taliban harboring Bin Laden and Al Qaeda when they attacked the US on 9/11?
Or if you want to go further back, why not blame the Soviet Union for invading Afghanistan in 1979?
Nicktendo86
Member
Oh, so you are only concerned about conflicts that suit your agenda? By that logic, how should it fucking concern then young child whom has now been left fatherless?
Parakeetman
No one wants a throne you've been sitting on!
You do understand that Afghans had their own problems before the big scary western countries showed up right? There are actual towns that appreciate the fact that something was being done about all the strong arming that has been happening to communities. The unfortunate truth is there is not enough resources for a foreign entity to continue to police the country, which is why its up to the govt of Afghanistan to do this on their own. Which is a whole nother problem on its own.
also lol @ you saying thank you for replying with an actual argument, yet you write off a highly valid opinion.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
come with me if you want to live, let's get out of here before the Banhammer falls, you are better than this!!
why you have an android avatar, a reference to Nintendo in your name, I like you.
Nicktendo86
Member
I was on my way out of the door but couldn't help myself.
This war started in the 90's when the Mujahideen who had no problem taking US/UK arms and aid to combat communism and the Soviets turned their sights onto the West as the true evil in the world.
They used this fear and hatred to take over Afghanistan. What a lie to the people that they'd be free from a communist authoritarian government and yet were enslaved under an even worse theocratic dictatorship.
This then culminated into the growth of the largest and most funded terror organization in the world. One which was reasonable for numerous attacks around the globe, including their most significant, 9/11.
Here's a newsflash, they were killing their own citizens long before the US/UK got involves and they'll keep doing it long after.
Some people are really ridiculous. So hypocrital too. I mean a lot of these folk looked up to Bin Laden and championed him as anti-capitalist, anti-west and who knew he was holed up the whole time in a comfy house with air conditioning, watching pornography, drinking coke, watching television, listening to Whitney Houston music etc.
UnblessedSoul
Member
Why is a Radical Islamist preacher Anjem Choudary and his followers allowed in this country? Can someone explain this to me? This country is crumbling for sure, is it the same thing with abu qatada? Eu trumps Uk law therefore nothing can be done?
Miles Quaritch
Member
Yep. Thought it was really good and it was where I got the 60k figure from for the EDL (apologies, should have sourced it last night), but it was tainted by inviting this cunt to appear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXCw9X3vRTs
A massive can of worms that will result in nothing but arguments and bannings here.
Short answer- mostly human rights laws that don't / can't take into consideration other factors and can't be overruled by them. We have a guy who has admitted to murdering whole towns but we can't deport him as its against *his* human rights because he may face persecution etc.
Little Old Man
Member
Choudary was born here. So there's nothing that can be directly done to rid us of tiresome rubbish he spews.
Are you serious? Those people are long gone while we've been at it continuously for the last century.
I don't understand what's going on in this thread. The reasons behind the attacks are fucking obvious. The politicians and strategists who dictate foreign policy get it, even if they won't publicly admit it, so stop denying it.
Our presence in the middle east is a calculated risk. Blowback every now and again is expected and the numbers are undoubtedly on some document somewhere right now. Probably have been since the 80's, if not earlier.
Nicktendo86
Member
Surely he must have broke some hate crimes? Inciting racial hatred? Lock him up and take away his platform to spew his bile.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Jesus, his argument seems to be, take what ever you have said, claim why you are wrong then use what you said to ask/accuse you about it, it's like arguing with my EX Gf, holf fuck balls
The problem is that when an event like this occurs, saying 'The government of Britain and the US are to blame' removes any responsibility from the people that actually carried out the act.
Imagine if a mosque was firebombed tonight, killing an imam. Imagine if someone placed the blame for that act at the feet of the muslims responsible for killing this soldier. People would react exactly the same way.
That said, it is worth examining the effect that our foreign policy has. Personally, I'm all in favour of removing all troops from, and cutting all aid to, the middle east. That way we either minimise the attacks against us, or remove the excuse.
As I said, when you take part in something like this you are bound to have problems..
Don't you think the US could achieve peace with the Middle East?
Don't you think they can stop the war right here right now?
Why do they keep fighting?
What is the reason this war continues?
Also one last question
You bomb a whole country just because the minority are psychos?
It not long before I hear that the US and Britain fight for the freedom of the people in the Middle East...
Don't you think the US could achieve peace with the Middle East?
Don't you think they can stop the war right here right now?
Why do they keep fighting?
What is the reason this war continues?
Also one last question
You bomb a whole country just because the minority are psychos?
It not long before I hear that the US and Britain fight for the freedom of the people in the Middle East...
Miles Quaritch
Member
It only gets worse. No matter what the issue, no matter how much he gets caught in his own convoluted garbage, he will never, ever admit to being wrong or ever accept the viewpoint/argument of the person he'd engaged in 'discussion' with.
Reinvigorate them to what?
I have no doubt people share certain misguided sentiments with the EDL and love the idea of people being 'payed' back. But when you see the cretins in that group a sense of reality washes over most people. They are losers.
The EDL are all about letting off some 'steam'. I have no doubt there are a few who can probably discuss their ideas sensibly but most of that group are hooligans looking for a ruck after necking a few pints.
I live in woolwich and I went down to town centre in the evening on the day it happened and watched the EDL run down the street scaring normal people coming from work and minding their own business. And pelting police with bottles and rocks. They were there to protest a soldiers murder and instead of showing restraint and respect, here they were fighting the police.
And this is a group who respects law and order?
Stop asking questions until you answer the ones put to you above, ignoring valid counter points to your own is bush league.
Nicktendo86
Member
ERM, what? How can a discussion progress if everyone just asks questions at everyone else? Your idea of a discussion is being in a rhetorical loop?
Little Old Man
Member
It's certainly not a stretch of the imagination to assume the security services will have Choudary, his followers, and his organisation under surveillance due to them attracting so many radical Muslims.
From what I can tell though, he has never been convicted of anything serious, though he has had a lot of run ins over things he has said, and demonstrations he has partook in, etc. Even some of his associates and activities have some very likely links to terrorism or related activities, but nothing concrete (certainly not in the public domain).
Yeah I get it, and i'm not defending their actions or terrorism, but if I were to prick you with a needle everyday and at the end of the month you knocked me the fuck out, I wouldn't be confused as to why you did it.
We would still have all the same issues with the culture clash and integration, but the worst of it would probably be events like the Muhammad cartoon nonsense, which we can slap down without any real effort.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I think we have come to full circle.
In the same way this nutjob killed a soldier for the Afghan and Iraq war, EDL nutjobs are targeting regular looking Muslims or Asian dudes as a retaliation for this attack.
Wonderful.
In the same way this nutjob killed a soldier for the Afghan and Iraq war, EDL nutjobs are targeting regular looking Muslims or Asian dudes as a retaliation for this attack.
Wonderful.
I think we all have your number, you want to push your ill informed agenda but are not interested in debate. Several posts above have picked holes in your logic yet you ignore them and try and just re-type the same shit over and over.
He has a point even if he isn't correct. The guys who go out and do this kind of shit are thinking on the same wavelength as Hokhoku, the naive/stupid ones who think they are exacting an an 'eye for an eye' or whatever.
(I don't agree with this view but its an easy way to justify going out and attacking a soldier)
(I don't agree with this view but its an easy way to justify going out and attacking a soldier)
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Again, it's like my EX
Hokhoku please stop this, your arguments will be stopped by simple logic.
Blame Politics. Blame Islam. Blame Immigration. Blame the System. Blame the Government. Blame Religion. Blame Society. Blame the Recession. Blame the Police. Blame 9/11. Blame Jeremy Kyle.
Heaven forbid people blame the individual who appears to be on camera confessing to brutally murdering this poor guy.
Horrifying - but the idiots in this country are going to use this event to kickstart riots and arguments that were looking for merely an excuse, which this has provided in the most tragic of terms. I hope the United Kingdom unites, I really do.
Heaven forbid people blame the individual who appears to be on camera confessing to brutally murdering this poor guy.
Horrifying - but the idiots in this country are going to use this event to kickstart riots and arguments that were looking for merely an excuse, which this has provided in the most tragic of terms. I hope the United Kingdom unites, I really do.
Ok then...
I don't see you creating threads about the drones that kill hundreds of children in Afghanistan....
Yet about 1 guy that got hacked in our western civilized world you make a big fuss about it.....
The soldier didn't deserve it
I feel for him
I hope his kid will be alright
I really do with all my heart
But as I do for him, I also feel for the people in Afghanistan
Edit: And for gods sake I AM NOT JUSTIFYING WHAT HAPPENED
I am just trying to converse in the most civilized way I can
You people really can't handle different opinions....
I don't see you creating threads about the drones that kill hundreds of children in Afghanistan....
Yet about 1 guy that got hacked in our western civilized world you make a big fuss about it.....
The soldier didn't deserve it
I feel for him
I hope his kid will be alright
I really do with all my heart
But as I do for him, I also feel for the people in Afghanistan
Edit: And for gods sake I AM NOT JUSTIFYING WHAT HAPPENED
I am just trying to converse in the most civilized way I can
You people really can't handle different opinions....
jufonuk
not tag worthy
I dont have thread creation rights, even if I did I do not wish to create such threads...
Yes, we can, it's just you presented it a certain way and then when people countered your logic you ignored it.
Are we in "Whose Line Is It Anyway?"
captainnapalm
Member
What's sad about these incidents is it leads to increasingly hard-line policies, moving the UK further to the right, and it's already an uncomfortably troublesome country in the world as things stand.
I really don't know how the US and the UK is going to deal with this whole War on Terror thing, which has been used by its leaders to do awful things around the globe for more than a decade now. This is really what the 21st century is known for so far, if you're one day going to look back. The problem is each country only has two viable political parties, and they're both fully on board, serving nefarious interests.
I really don't know how the US and the UK is going to deal with this whole War on Terror thing, which has been used by its leaders to do awful things around the globe for more than a decade now. This is really what the 21st century is known for so far, if you're one day going to look back. The problem is each country only has two viable political parties, and they're both fully on board, serving nefarious interests.
No, I'm pretty sure that assholes that chop other people up are to blame.
People do die every day, in every region, in every country. Some of those deaths are even murders. Every single murderer is responsible for the life that they took. It's not absolved due to some conflict that is happening in another fucking country.
This is not the result of a war that Britain participated in. This is the result of a sick fuck murdering someone else without provocation.
As others have pointed out, the violence in the Middle East is centuries upon centuries old. Do those atrocities no longer matter because .. Why, again? Too old?
maybe you shouldn't have opened with that shit, then. It reads like you are justifying his actions...because you are. Maybe that wasn't your intention but that is exactly what you did.
Choke on the Magic
Banned
So in your opinion we should just take on a "move along nothing to see here" attitude. It's a big deal. A guy was hacked up in broad daylight.
There have been plenty of threads where people are very critical of drone strikes as well so your argument doesn't hold up very well. I'm afraid the problem is more of that you cannot handle people being critical of your "different opinions."
The perception by radicalised Muslims and idiots like Igo and Hokhoku is that the entire Western world is specifically out to undermine and humiliate Islam. This is obviously incorrect. But when one has this incorrect perception, it is used to justify terrorism for anything they deem to be un-Islamic or inflammatory. Whether it's the presence of Western troops in "Muslim lands", blasphemy - including a book or a cartoon or the mere existence of the state of Israel (a separate issue to the illegal settlements) - none of these factors can excuse terrorism.
In this thread there are people arguing that in some way the perpetrators were justified in killing the off-duty soldier in London due to the war in Afghanistan. In other threads on this forum I have seen people justify the attacks on Danish and American embassies and interests as a result of cartoons or book burnings. Where does it end?
You can blame foreign policy all you want, but it's just an excuse. The overwhelming source of terrorism is the ideology itself. The terrorists in Woolwich were devout Christians with a Nigerian background who converted to Islam and whose accents suggests they have never even been outside the city limits of London. They're not from the slums of Helmand and have seen their entire families killed in drone strikes, they're two weak individuals from South London who converted to a violent ideology through the preaching of other radical Muslims.
Nobody would deny that US/British foreign policy and the war in Afghanistan have been damaging to the relationship with the Muslim world, but geopolitics and world history leading to the current state of the world are an interconnected web of many thousands of events over the course of centuries. Simply saying "You brought this on yourself for bombing Afghanistan" is so reductive and narrow that only is it morally repugnant, but it's also clearly incorrect. It assumes there were no issues with radical Islam prior to the start of the 21st century.
The spread of Islam though forced conversions and invasions, the Crusades, Intra-faith Shia–Sunni violence (which is accountable for more deaths of Muslims than the West is), conflict with Christians, colonialism, the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, WWII, the Cold War, 9/11 etc have all contributed to the current state of world politics, particularly those of the Islamic world.
The enlightenment in Europe, the embracing of democracy and freedom, secular laws, the industrial revolution etc have all meant the West has both economically and socially left the Muslim world behind in modern history. While the West has prospered, the Muslim world has entrenched itself back into heavy religious doctrine. The result is less freedom for everyone (including Muslims), less economic and scientific development, and a waning of global influence for the Muslim world. In this context it's easy to see why radical Islam and the hatred of the West has gained such a broad following. Islamic terrorism is not a response to any one specific thing, but a multitude of socio-economic factors built up over a long period of time, some of them self-administered, some of them not.
The West should change its policy in the Middle East and the Muslim world - not as a response to terrorism - but because it's the right thing to do. Put much more pressure on Israel to stop the illegal settlements and form a two-state solution, stop propping up Authoritarian dictatorships, reduce the drone strike program and encourage and support the elements of society that helped spark the more secular Arab uprisings. But even if all that were to happen, do you think radical Islam and Islamic terrorism would simply vanish into the relics of history? Of course it wouldn't. Blasphemy, the lack of support for Sharia in the West, the continued social and economic imbalance will all ensure that it remains for quite some time. So blaming the war in Afghanistan, or even American/British foreign policy within the last 20 years is an extremely stupid and naive.
In this thread there are people arguing that in some way the perpetrators were justified in killing the off-duty soldier in London due to the war in Afghanistan. In other threads on this forum I have seen people justify the attacks on Danish and American embassies and interests as a result of cartoons or book burnings. Where does it end?
You can blame foreign policy all you want, but it's just an excuse. The overwhelming source of terrorism is the ideology itself. The terrorists in Woolwich were devout Christians with a Nigerian background who converted to Islam and whose accents suggests they have never even been outside the city limits of London. They're not from the slums of Helmand and have seen their entire families killed in drone strikes, they're two weak individuals from South London who converted to a violent ideology through the preaching of other radical Muslims.
Nobody would deny that US/British foreign policy and the war in Afghanistan have been damaging to the relationship with the Muslim world, but geopolitics and world history leading to the current state of the world are an interconnected web of many thousands of events over the course of centuries. Simply saying "You brought this on yourself for bombing Afghanistan" is so reductive and narrow that only is it morally repugnant, but it's also clearly incorrect. It assumes there were no issues with radical Islam prior to the start of the 21st century.
The spread of Islam though forced conversions and invasions, the Crusades, Intra-faith Shia–Sunni violence (which is accountable for more deaths of Muslims than the West is), conflict with Christians, colonialism, the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, WWII, the Cold War, 9/11 etc have all contributed to the current state of world politics, particularly those of the Islamic world.
The enlightenment in Europe, the embracing of democracy and freedom, secular laws, the industrial revolution etc have all meant the West has both economically and socially left the Muslim world behind in modern history. While the West has prospered, the Muslim world has entrenched itself back into heavy religious doctrine. The result is less freedom for everyone (including Muslims), less economic and scientific development, and a waning of global influence for the Muslim world. In this context it's easy to see why radical Islam and the hatred of the West has gained such a broad following. Islamic terrorism is not a response to any one specific thing, but a multitude of socio-economic factors built up over a long period of time, some of them self-administered, some of them not.
The West should change its policy in the Middle East and the Muslim world - not as a response to terrorism - but because it's the right thing to do. Put much more pressure on Israel to stop the illegal settlements and form a two-state solution, stop propping up Authoritarian dictatorships, reduce the drone strike program and encourage and support the elements of society that helped spark the more secular Arab uprisings. But even if all that were to happen, do you think radical Islam and Islamic terrorism would simply vanish into the relics of history? Of course it wouldn't. Blasphemy, the lack of support for Sharia in the West, the continued social and economic imbalance will all ensure that it remains for quite some time. So blaming the war in Afghanistan, or even American/British foreign policy within the last 20 years is an extremely stupid and naive.
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