Man decapitated at company near Grenoble, France, Islamist flag found on site
- Thread starter De-mon
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Its not impossible to like people whose beliefs you disagree with our dislike. Assuming everyone who dislikes your beliefs dislikes you is silly. It could well be true but theres no use getting offended over a possibility.
Although I do think the original post was far too aggressive and generalising against Islam too. Lumping actual Muslims in with monsters who commit acts like this is silly.
Denton
Member
If people follow religion, or interpretation of religion, that contains ideas like "apostates should be stoned", then no, I will not respect these people.
Please not that I was talking about all religions, not only Islam. I also obviously didn't lump anyone in with terrorists. I even made a point about the fact that you shouldn't do that.
Ravensmash
Member
How do you know whether someone's personal interpretation of these beliefs encompasses that?
Cannot the same be said of any ideology? For example, if someone said they follow nazism but insisted they are not antisemitic, most people would probably still call that person insane (if we ignore the part where nazism is also fascist amongst other bad things). I'm genuinely curious, I don't know enough about this subject to make any definite statements.
The thing I want to point out is, that people are not responsible for every sub-group in their beliefs. The ordinary sunni muslim living in america shouldn't be implicated for a insane group with their base on the other side of the world. Would you stop believing in something, religous or other, because there are some jackasses that are doing shit in the name of that?
I didn't fault you for the racism of others. I think. Of course religion can and should be critized, but since when is "X is cancer" legitimate ciritism? This is just taking the piss.
Uhm. Islamists can also be white or black, there is really not stopping anyone of from any skin colour to join ISIS, the believe isn't hinging on race. But yeah, most muslims seem to be middle eastern from the looks and a lot people are associate all middle eastern looking people with muslims and further with the racism angle as potential threats.
Actually, you are right it's the wrong term in the context of west4h, "discriminating" would be more correct. As explained above, he just did put all muslims on trial for these events which is a generalisation that is very dangerous for middle eastern looking people because racism leads to them associated with terrorists when all of Islam is put on one plate.
Remember other non-muslim terrorist groups like the leftwing RAF in Germany or the nationalist IRA in Ireland. Are all leftwingers bad or all irish? Certainly not. Those are extremists and we shouldn't alinate the moderates who don't want to have anything to do with the extremists by pushing them into the same corner.
Who decides what's legitimate criticism and what not when it comes to Religion? Sure, I could have worded it different but the end result would still be the same. I hate Religion for what it does to us, I don't hate an individual just because he's religious. There's no need to sugarcoat it. It's just semantics after all.
It would be a nice gesture I guess but in the end they really don't have to. I don't think that these lunatics would change their mind just because some politicians denounce them. They already made up their mind what Religion means to them.
The whole reason major religions are as big as they are is because they expressly don't limit themselves to the personal sphere.
Sport isn't a great analogy. A far more applicable one is the Pope's comment of "Insult my mother; expect to get punched"
I've gotten way more thin skinned since I started a family. Prejudice against me based on my world view is fine. But knowing that people are going to look cross eyed at my son his entire life because he has a Muslim sounding name and they despise Islam really gets me at my core.
But really if you take a look at my initial post it goes to far more substantive problems with kamorra's attitude than just his me feeling like my family has been degraded (and that is honestly the emotional response that I had).
The first is that it's inaccurate. Does kamorra really hate the religion of Martin Luther King Jr? Of Nelson Mandela? Of Archbishop Desmond Tutu? Of Gandhi? Of Malala Yousafi? All of these people are or were motivated in large degree by their religion. kamorra hates those faiths? Really? If so there's something really wrong there and it needs to be called out.
The second is that the attitude feeds into the bullshit moronic idiotic insane narrative of a 'Clash between Civilizations' that fuckers like ISIS (and less importantly right wing talk show mouth-breathers) feed off of.
It's very easy. A simple qualifier that you hate Fanatic religion would be amazing because that has nothing to do with my world view or identity. Religion on the other hand very much does.
Of course that might not be accurate and maybe you do look at Yousafi's headscarf and think to yourself Man I really despise the Islamic part of her identity and any thought that she has that is any way influenced by Islam. GRRR DESPISE RELIGION!
This is either the greatest overreaction or missing the point post I ever had directed at me. Or maybe both. I don't know anymore. You won two internets today.
Maybe you should be specific in your criticisms then rather than just make an attack on a concept that billions and billions of people adhere to, all of them in different ways.
Ah well, ok I thought I fucking despise every single Religion, it's a breeding ground for intolerance, homophobia, hate and funnily enough actual Racism was already specific enough. I admit that I forget to add burning witches and the problematic relationship between the Catholic church and young boys. My bad.
Huh. I see. So instead of specifying what kind of religion you have a problem with you're going to double down with having a problem with the identify and world view of every religious person in the world or who has ever lived and imply that they have some culpability for witch burning and pedophilia to boot.
You know what? I had enough patience with you. EVERY SINGLE RELIGION MEANS ALL OF THEM. You don't actually want a honest discussion with me so how about we stop this? We obviously don't share the same form of logic.
And that's exactly what I have a gigantic problem with. Yeah sure Archbishop Desmond Tutu (after all if you despise religion then you can't get more religious both in identity and worldview than being AN ARCHBISHOP) should totally be harangued about how all faith helps with raping boys and contributes to fucking racism.
Yes, please do. This exchange between the two of you has gone on long enough. If you feel there are things left unsaid, please, say them via PM.
Are you just being dense on purpose of being provocative? Dogmatic thinking formulated by patriarch-based society by definition are sexist and promote lots of unacceptable values by today's standards. You can argue whatever you want but that's a simple, unavoidable fact.
The fact that religion is adapting to today's standards (by pretending it was wrong before in its interpretations, but now it's totally correct!) is one of the many proofs of this.
And it's easily possible of being mistrusting of religion and religious people and still have no problems with the majority of them. My very parents for example are very religious, and sometimes i call them out on some archaic povs, but i still love them because people are NOT defined by a single trait, despite what the internet may make you think (it's an easy, but extremely reductive view that get propagated a lot on internets). I voulunteered and worked to help foreign students, mostly from north africa, and they were exactly as we are. But if anyone of them had expressed a derogatory view on women? You could be very well sure that i would've called him out on that and blamed his religion and upbringing for that, without hating the person.
25+ killed in Kuwait too??! Didn't even hear about that one... A horrible day indeed.
Wenger'sBakedBaguettes
Member
It doesn't fit with the Western media's view or narrative. The reality everyone ignore is that young Syrian and Iraqi men are dying for the world to fight these extremists on a daily basis, and a big portion of them are Europe's filthy garbage.The Western media labels one of them as sectarian and almost compares it with IS (even though 1. That group has experienced far worse in 12 years than what most Europeans will experience in their entire life combined and 2. That group has essentially absorbed members of several ethnicities and religions) and the other one is labeled as a bunch of mindless drones following a secular dictator not to mention that Western powers are pushing hard to topple him and his regime (and therefore supporting the genocide of ethnic minorities). Goes to show how the coverage, view, media and the sides the western world takes is pathetic, insulting and just one big pile of shit.
Iraq/Syria has repeatedly said it's the plight of the world to fight against ISIS, and yet even when a tragedy like this happens, and even when their followers outside Middle East, in particular from Western countries, travel to Iraq and Syria not much is being done. Instead the general attitude among Western leaders and the population is like "Well they can go and die there if they want. Not our problem anymore, revoke their citizenship etc."...basically throwing their trash in countries they have destabilized instead of making a stronger effort into tackling ISIS and other forms of Sunni extremism. Not much will change either while Western leaders are busy bowing their head down to the Saudi King and other Gulf States just to strike some lucrative oil and arms deals while having friends like Jordan. These two countries warned them that it wouldn't be contained in Syria and Iraq, the concentration is there because ISIS hates Shia muslims more than anything (even the fighters among them who are barely religious hate them) in this world. However, as we can see from acts like this they are everywhere. They are also gaining a stronger foothold in Libya (another one of the Western world's wonders) and Yemen (where a sectarian coalition is bombing rebels, partially with help from logistics received by US)
In regards to France I think we need to understand they will continue to be attacked like this. Why? Because many ISIS fighters are of North African heritage, and there's a high population of Moroccans/Algerians/Tunisians in France. I wonder how France will respond to this, more support to so called moderate rebels like FSA? (i.e. more support to terrorists) to topple some dictatorship in Syria who is fighting against ISIS...the ones attacking France? Great.
Sadly this is common news for Sunnis and Sunni tribes that have been fighting against Al-Qaida and ISIS since day one.
sadly this is even more common than the above and basically daily news for Shia and other Muslim minorities who continue to face centuries of hate, persecution and massacre all over the Muslim world at the hands of the Sunni majority.
Rip to all victims in France, Tunisia and Kuwait.
Stereogatari
Banned
You're right Dave, too many people are conflating their "feels" with the actual religious doctrine. Each individual's "feels" are different according to themselves as an individual, but the actual religious doctrine is full of garbage (and good advice too, but what use is that when there is a load of garbage).
Yeah, I know. My best friend is a lebanese Kurd who fled the country during the civil war. It's just depressing.
timetokill
Banned
Sounds like their campaign of terror is working, then.
Even if this situation is incredibly damning to Islam.
Forgetting? There's no such thing as FSA anymore, there's only the Islamic front which is an Islamic umbrella group which encompasses many radical islamists, most prominent of which is the Nusra Front which is spearheading the jaish al fateh army. All western weapons find their way to Nusra in the end.
This is another intelligence blowback, similar to the blowback after Reagan backed Al Quaeda in Afghanistan and gave them high tech weapons, similar to the Libyan blowback which resulted in the US embassy incident.
The west just burnt itself again with the fires they've stoked in the middle east.
Morals has nothing to do with what I just said, it's the objective truth, the people who are fighting terrorists everyday and dying in that fight are us muslims, while the rest of the internet are keyboard warriors acting like armchair generals and know fuck all about what's happening on the ground.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Religion of peace, eh?
iceatcs
Junior Member
It is really shame and many Middle East counties won't go well for very long time because of education. Religion still very very important in the school in many place, some are under the law. Not like western education system that lot of place allow study all of subject without stupid religion theory.
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