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March Wrasslin |OT| Road To WrassleMania

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Yes saying posting the entirety of a subscriber newsletter at once is a bit tasteless or tacky is exactly the same as wanting high-end production values in someone's posts okay
Oh, okay. I'm glad we're on the same page.

Henry getting injured when he gets a push is nothing new. It happens every fucking time. The guy needs to retire.
He has, actually. But this push is pretty much the best push of his career, in all honesty.

I guess I'm just glad that he saw gold before he left wrestling for good. He's not a wrestling technician by any means, but I guess he has paid his dues.
 
"Vince McMahon’s plan to expand his Worldwide Wrestling Entertainment empire through a dedicated cable channel is on the ropes.

Although WWE’s TV shows draw big ratings, it has yet to strike a single deal with a cable or satellite-TV provider to carry its own cable channel, sources said.


WWE had timed the April 1 launch of the network in 40 million homes to coincide with its pay-per-view extravaganza, Wrestlemania. The company even had a clock counting down to the April launch date on its site, which has since disappeared.

The Stamford, Conn., company is also lagging when it comes to hiring experienced cable executives. It was expected to hire some 200 employees, including a general manager to run the channel.


WWE’s Vince McMahon hasn’t been able to pin down a single pay-TV distributor to carry his proposed WWE channel, which has been a tough sell to advertisers.
“WWE has the programming and marketing muscle, but they just have no one with cable experience who can execute for them,” said one cable executive.

WWE swung to a loss in the fourth quarter on costs to launch the TV network and revamp its film division. The company lost $8.6 million, while revenue fell 7.8 percent to $122.5 million. WWE spent $4 million in the quarter to get the network off the ground.

WWE has a long-term agreement with NBCUniversal’s USA Network to air “Monday Night Raw.” The 10 p.m. show drew 4.6 million viewers on Monday, making it one of the most-watched shows on cable.

WWE’s often raunchy programming targets mostly 18-to-34 year-old men, although the company has made efforts to become more family friendly and broaden its appeal for advertisers.

“Given the content issues, I think a whole channel would be a stretch,” said Gerri Donini, senior vice president broadcast at media-buying shop R.J. Palmer. “It is very limited in who it reaches.”"


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/wwe_smackdown_ugf9Ju67DsXq4yq06OEZ6I#ixzz1nyoNiUCS
 

Striker

Member
What are you talking about? He won the damn match, lol. Don't give me that, "you don't have to lose to put someone over" crap. Besides, it was only about a year previously that Taker was SQUASHING the whole Hardy Boyz. Hell, I remember he no sold a kick to the nuts by Lita, lol.
lol ok. Losing a match like that didn't hurt Jeff at all. It made people begin to think he can hang with guys like that. It's something the WWE nowadays hardly EVER does with Ziggler, Kofi, Rhodes, and others. We get RKO's out of nowhere, Cena's 5mod, and Punk's one of a rare occasion guy, but even then he made Ziggler look like a complete loser not long ago on RAW.

What? Did Sheamus' Table Match win over Cena to win him the WWE title put him over? No, because it didn't prove shit.
 
Yeah, Jeff/Taker ladder match did a lot to put Hardy over as a singles wrestler.

Besides the aforementioned Snitsky, who has Kane put over who wasn't already main event Soul?
I'm not saying he hasn't, I just find him coming out to bury the tag division all at once (on more than one occasion) pretty damning...
 
Its crazy how long it took for Henry to get a decent push. I remember when he first arrived in the early 90's and didn't do shit. Than he had a semi decent run as Sexual Chocolate, which was pretty over during the attitude era. He than pretty much disappears during the WCW buyout till only to get a title run in 2011. Thats a pretty crazy career and pretty odd that somebody just woke up one day in the office and said "Hmmm Mark Henry is still on the roster? lets use him and just throw the title on him for a few months". Dudes gotta be in his 40's now.
 
I can't remember BikerTaker putting anyone over with the exception of Lesnar and Stone Cold, honestly. Big Show sucks, no one cares who he puts over, lol. I bet HHH & HBK think putting over Cena counts, lol. Hell, even Edge didn't put anyone over, but he had an abrupt end so I won't count it.

It's just Jericho and Kane that put people over, really, and they don't care, because they know they'll be over huge, no matter what. I think some of this guys are just huge marks for themselves, and think winning and losing actually matter. You're at the end of your career, and no one will really care about you ten years from now. Your legacy is cemented, and will essentially be determined by how the WWE chooses to market and remember you, not you win loss record. At least I can say Taker put over Kane huge three straight times, which has NEVER happened in Taker's career previously. Lose against an opponent three straight times? Unheard of for him.

Of course Taker was still "weakened" the first time, was tricked by Bearer's magic urn following that and finally buried by a bunch of unrelated wrestlers but I guess that's the best we're going to get. Biker Taker didn't outright put anyone over but he worked with talent lower than himself as both a trainer (Orlando Jordan for some reason) and rivals (rapper Cena, Heidenreich) though he still walked away victorious it was far removed from the deadman, also helped Kurt Angle in his earlier days.

As far as Taker/Jeff goes, the ladder match did some good for Jeff which made up for the big evil ass kickings he gave out to the brothers for like 3 months. Shame Jeff himself would squander such things but that's like Jeff's Modus operandi.

Edge was basically the Cena of Smackdown at one point but heel, I was so sick of him which of course made him dicking on Kane back in 2010 painful to endure, fuck that feud, their 2005 one was tons better.
 
Its crazy how long it took for Henry to get a decent push. I remember when he first arrived in the early 90's and didn't do shit. Than he had a semi decent run as Sexual Chocolate, which was pretty over during the attitude era. He than pretty much disappears during the WCW buyout till only to get a title run in 2011. Thats a pretty crazy career and pretty odd that somebody just woke up one day in the office and said "Hmmm Mark Henry is still on the roster? lets use him and just throw the title on him for a few months". Dudes gotta be in his 40's now.
He's actually 40 right now.

Although we all talk about pushing new talent, I think I'll be real sad when all the relics of the older wrestling generations retire. I mean, I could always watch TNA to see them, but still.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
"Vince McMahon’s plan to expand his Worldwide Wrestling Entertainment empire through a dedicated cable channel is on the ropes.

Although WWE’s TV shows draw big ratings, it has yet to strike a single deal with a cable or satellite-TV provider to carry its own cable channel, sources said.


WWE had timed the April 1 launch of the network in 40 million homes to coincide with its pay-per-view extravaganza, Wrestlemania. The company even had a clock counting down to the April launch date on its site, which has since disappeared.

The Stamford, Conn., company is also lagging when it comes to hiring experienced cable executives. It was expected to hire some 200 employees, including a general manager to run the channel.


WWE’s Vince McMahon hasn’t been able to pin down a single pay-TV distributor to carry his proposed WWE channel, which has been a tough sell to advertisers.
“WWE has the programming and marketing muscle, but they just have no one with cable experience who can execute for them,” said one cable executive.

WWE swung to a loss in the fourth quarter on costs to launch the TV network and revamp its film division. The company lost $8.6 million, while revenue fell 7.8 percent to $122.5 million. WWE spent $4 million in the quarter to get the network off the ground.

WWE has a long-term agreement with NBCUniversal’s USA Network to air “Monday Night Raw.” The 10 p.m. show drew 4.6 million viewers on Monday, making it one of the most-watched shows on cable.

WWE’s often raunchy programming targets mostly 18-to-34 year-old men, although the company has made efforts to become more family friendly and broaden its appeal for advertisers.

“Given the content issues, I think a whole channel would be a stretch,” said Gerri Donini, senior vice president broadcast at media-buying shop R.J. Palmer. “It is very limited in who it reaches.”"


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/wwe_smackdown_ugf9Ju67DsXq4yq06OEZ6I#ixzz1nyoNiUCS

It would be such a shame if this sank WWE. No really.
 

Entropia

No One Remembers
It would be such a shame if this sank WWE. No really.

“Given the content issues, I think a whole channel would be a stretch,” said Gerri Donini, senior vice president broadcast at media-buying shop R.J. Palmer. “It is very limited in who it reaches.”"

There are so many niche channels out there though. Hell, The Toronto Maple Leafs have their own channel! But yes, every sport has their own channel, why can't the WWE? And heck, aside from showing archived footage it's going to be creating new content. From what I see on the NHL Network, all it is games, live coverage and then old games/docs.
 
Vince Russo issued a statement to pwinsider

"Despite the continuing rumors, speculation, and hearsay surrounding my departure from TNA Wrestling, in an effort to set the record straight, I was not fired, terminated, released, or let go from the company--it was my decision to walk away, and from there the separation was mutual, amicable and professional.

It simply makes good business sense that where someone of my talent and ability was not going to be used to their capability or capacity, that a parting of the ways was inevitable.

In closing, I’d like to thank my fellow writer and friend, Matt Conway, for giving me purpose, my friend and brother, Jeff Jarrett, for hiring me, Dixie Carter and the entire Carter family, for keeping me employed, but, more importantly, every man and woman in the locker room for giving me the opportunity, and ability, to work in the professional wrestling business for the past twenty years. Without their blood, sweat and tears . . . I would have not been able to support my family and make a living. My greatest loss by far is leaving them behind.

And truly, from the bottom of my heart, I wish TNA all the best in their future endeavors.

PS: I couldn’t help myself with that last line, but I truly DO wish TNA all the success in the world!

Peace,

Vince"



I really hope WWE signs him.
 

TheNatural

My Member!
There are so many niche channels out there though. Hell, The Toronto Maple Leafs have their own channel! But yes, every sport has their own channel, why can't the WWE? And heck, aside from showing archived footage it's going to be creating new content. From what I see on the NHL Network, all it is games, live coverage and then old games/docs.

Probably because the WWE has put a ton of money into this network. I doubt many others have even a fraction of what the WWE has put into digitizing their entire library, hiring employees, etc, etc. It's a moneysink. They've never made this out to be anything less than a major launch. Even the UFC thought this wasn't viable.
 

Kaladin

Member
"Vince McMahon’s plan to expand his Worldwide Wrestling Entertainment empire through a dedicated cable channel is on the ropes.

Although WWE’s TV shows draw big ratings, it has yet to strike a single deal with a cable or satellite-TV provider to carry its own cable channel, sources said.


WWE had timed the April 1 launch of the network in 40 million homes to coincide with its pay-per-view extravaganza, Wrestlemania. The company even had a clock counting down to the April launch date on its site, which has since disappeared.

The Stamford, Conn., company is also lagging when it comes to hiring experienced cable executives. It was expected to hire some 200 employees, including a general manager to run the channel.


WWE’s Vince McMahon hasn’t been able to pin down a single pay-TV distributor to carry his proposed WWE channel, which has been a tough sell to advertisers.
“WWE has the programming and marketing muscle, but they just have no one with cable experience who can execute for them,” said one cable executive.

WWE swung to a loss in the fourth quarter on costs to launch the TV network and revamp its film division. The company lost $8.6 million, while revenue fell 7.8 percent to $122.5 million. WWE spent $4 million in the quarter to get the network off the ground.

WWE has a long-term agreement with NBCUniversal’s USA Network to air “Monday Night Raw.” The 10 p.m. show drew 4.6 million viewers on Monday, making it one of the most-watched shows on cable.

WWE’s often raunchy programming targets mostly 18-to-34 year-old men, although the company has made efforts to become more family friendly and broaden its appeal for advertisers.

“Given the content issues, I think a whole channel would be a stretch,” said Gerri Donini, senior vice president broadcast at media-buying shop R.J. Palmer. “It is very limited in who it reaches.”"


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/wwe_smackdown_ugf9Ju67DsXq4yq06OEZ6I#ixzz1nyoNiUCS

Vince wouldn't have this problem if his name was Oprah Winfrey.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Yeah, Jeff/Taker ladder match did a lot to put Hardy over as a singles wrestler.

Besides the aforementioned Snitsky, who has Kane put over who wasn't already main event Soul?
I'm not saying he hasn't, I just find him coming out to bury the tag division all at once (on more than one occasion) pretty damning...
Well, Snitsky, Umaga, Khali (at WM, in a clean loss), Big Daddy V, Edge, Batista (at the time, he wasn't even in Evolution yet), X-Pac, Jericho, MVP, Mark Henry (at the time he wasn't). The list goes on and on.

It's not to say that he hasn't beaten these guys later on on a random PPV or RAW/SD!, but he usually loses the first big match, puts them over, and only beats them again down the road IF their original pushed simply failed and it was clear they were getting FE'd. Hell, a couple of these guys (Batista, Umaga), he never beat and faced them multiple times.

OK, fine I'll back off the Jeff/Taker thing, but like I said, he was squashing them a year earlier. Also, he had no choice but to work with lesser guys during his Biker run after the brand split on SD! There was no one else to feud with, lol, and he practically never looked weak against those guys ever.
 

atomsk

Party Pooper
It would be such a shame if this sank WWE. No really.

in 1990, WBF
in 2001, XFL
in 2012, WWE Network

seems about once a decade Vince has a "huge crazy idea", and the last time it actually worked was in the 80's when he expanded nationally and created Wrestlemania
 

Ultratech

Member
"Vince McMahon’s plan to expand his Worldwide Wrestling Entertainment empire through a dedicated cable channel is on the ropes.

Although WWE’s TV shows draw big ratings, it has yet to strike a single deal with a cable or satellite-TV provider to carry its own cable channel, sources said.

Wasn't it not too long ago that Vince said that demand for WWE has never been higher?

LOLOLOL
 

ZeroRay

Member
in 1990, WBF
in 2001, XFL
in 2012, WWE Network

seems about once a decade Vince has a "huge crazy idea", and the last time it actually worked was in the 80's when he expanded nationally and created Wrestlemania

Well, Vince is only great at promoting wrestling and that absolutely eats away at his soul.
 

Striker

Member
OK, fine I'll back off the Jeff/Taker thing, but like I said, he was squashing them a year earlier. Also, he had no choice but to work with lesser guys during his Biker run after the brand split on SD! There was no one else to feud with, lol, and he practically never looked weak against those guys ever.
Lest we forget CM Punk jobbed the World Title to Taker in the fall of 2009 after the Jeff feud which made him a hot (heel) commodity, which basically ended his heat. Then again this past year, I believe, CM Punk was squashed, Miz style, to Taker to apparently warm up for his bout vs. ManGod Triple H at Wrestlemania. This is WWE. They'll squash you. They'll job you for no reason (see Mark Henry). The random pushes and drop downs (in this case, look at how they have handled Dolph Ziggler's months of late January-March in 2010 and now 2011, it's hilarious, worse than TNA levels), yet some wonder why there's no new stars or guys lack heat once they suddenly have gold on their waist.

I see at least in Jeff and the Hardy's case they were only known at the time as former Tag champs and weren't much of singles competitors. WWE nowadays will job you out instantly, no matter who you are.
 
Kane had no business jobbing to most of the guys he jobbed to. I mean Big Daddy V? really? His jobbing really ruined his legacy as far as im concerned, considering the fact on how much he dominated in 97/98. It pretty much ruins that when hes getting squashed by Rey, Umaga and Matt Hard (who he destroyed along with Jeff in '97).
 

sega4ever

Member
There are so many niche channels out there though. Hell, The Toronto Maple Leafs have their own channel! But yes, every sport has their own channel, why can't the WWE? And heck, aside from showing archived footage it's going to be creating new content. From what I see on the NHL Network, all it is games, live coverage and then old games/docs.

a wrestling channel would be awesome with wwe, tna, cmll, aaa, roh and ring ka king. too bad we will never see something like that.
 
Jim Cornette stops The Briscoes and Adam Cole from going to WWE. LITERALLY!

428283_10150608974106328_71739451327_9304899_1764280784_n.jpg
 
a wrestling channel would be awesome with wwe, tna, cmll, aaa, roh and ring ka king. too bad we will never see something like that.

I am actually surprised that there isn't one already because there is a huge market for this and more footage to know what to do with. Add in Japanese and Mexican wrasslin and its even more expansive.

But yeah it won't have any WWE,WCW, ECW and AWA, but it can have the other mentioned and still have tons and tons of footage.
 
I'm not worried about Ziggler at all. He's a workhouse and is a default for main-event level matches even if he isn't really booked like a main eventer. All it will take is Punk getting injured or Ziggler be drafted to Smackdown and I'm confident that Dolph will take a belt for a while.

I dunno about Kane. He's certainly put over guys, but his spot on the card is in such a state of flux that I'm never really sure if it does anything for anyone. Like right now he just put over Cena so that Cena could be strong going into Mania (without getting the belt back), and next he'll be losing to Orton (presumably to build Orton back up for a future WH run) and he'll just sort of get run down back into midcard. I'd rather see him stay as a dominant monster and then lose in what looks like it should be a squash to someone like Dolph or Tyson Kidd or Kofi, someone that could use the rub while Kane is still someone worth beating.

And god dammit, why am I always sucked into Kane conversations.

Jim Cornette stops The Briscoes and Adam Cole from going to WWE. LITERALLY!

Adam Cole you couldn't take your cell phone out of your pants for 30 seconds?
 

UberTag

Member
The random pushes and drop downs (in this case, look at how they have handled Dolph Ziggler's months of late January-March in 2010 and now 2011, it's hilarious, worse than TNA levels), yet some wonder why there's no new stars or guys lack heat once they suddenly have gold on their waist.
Nobody with any sense wonders about that.
Vince is the problem. Always has been, always will be.
Son-In-Law & Wife aren't much better.

Vinces hatred of Toronto rears it's ugly head again. They keep changing their minds on where they are hosting that PPV and what they are even going to call it.
Canada no longer gets pay-per-views.
The country is down to two rounds of TV tapings a year and they're lucky to even get that much.

Vince would rather tape RAW in front of a 2/3 empty tarped-over arena in nowheresville North Dakota than bring TV to an always hot Toronto or Montreal crowd.

At least Toronto still gets a PPV semi-regularly.
The rest of Canada isn't given that courtesy
The last PPV broadcast out of Canada was Breaking Point in September 2009... from Montreal.
The PPV before that... was Unforgiven WAY back in September 2006. From Toronto when Trish Stratus retired at a PPV I attended.

And now nothing until 2013. For some perspective, the WWE has been to nearby Buffalo (a much smaller market) for pay-per-views twice in that timeframe.
 
WWE has published their 10-K report for 2011 and it includes their wrestling contract with Paul Levesque (a/k/a Triple H). The new agreement went into effect January 1, 2012 and expires on March 30, 2016, when he is 46 years old.

Highlights:

* Levesque will be paid a 'Minimum Annual Compensation' of $1 million for each year under contract.

* Levesque will be limited to 180 dates per year, unless both parties mutually agree to extend beyond that number.

* Levesque cannot work or perform in any capacity for any 'mixed martial arts' organization while under contract.
.
 
Canada no longer gets pay-per-views.
The country is down to two rounds of TV tapings a year and they're lucky to even get that much.

Vince would rather tape RAW in front of a 2/3 empty tarped-over arena in nowheresville North Dakota than bring TV to an always hot Toronto or Montreal crowd.

Western Canada barely even gets one round of TV tapings.

And Calgary is always hot, always full, and we invented wrestling.
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
I'm not worried about Ziggler at all. He's a workhouse and is a default for main-event level matches even if he isn't really booked like a main eventer. All it will take is Punk getting injured or Ziggler be drafted to Smackdown and I'm confident that Dolph will take a belt for a while.

I dunno about Kane. He's certainly put over guys, but his spot on the card is in such a state of flux that I'm never really sure if it does anything for anyone. Like right now he just put over Cena so that Cena could be strong going into Mania (without getting the belt back), and next he'll be losing to Orton (presumably to build Orton back up for a future WH run) and he'll just sort of get run down back into midcard. I'd rather see him stay as a dominant monster and then lose in what looks like it should be a squash to someone like Dolph or Tyson Kidd or Kofi, someone that could use the rub while Kane is still someone worth beating.

And god dammit, why am I always sucked into Kane conversations.
He actually did lose to Kofi randomly and out of nowhere once. It was when Kofi looked to be getting a big push before Orton "Stupid, stupid, stupid'd" him.
 

bjork

Member
I'm not too interested in a WWE channel, since it would be limited to whatever they chose to show for that week or month, etc. What I could get behind, and what I've wanted for some time, is a shop that's similar to itunes but for the entire WWE-owned tape library. Things like PPVs and documentaries would be on there, but I'd be more interested in buying individual episodes of old shows, outtakes, and things like region-specific promos from back in the 80s and early 90s. It might not have a huge audience, but isn't making even $1 off something better than letting it sit in some archive forever?
 

SoulPlaya

more money than God
Kane had no business jobbing to most of the guys he jobbed to. I mean Big Daddy V? really? His jobbing really ruined his legacy as far as im concerned, considering the fact on how much he dominated in 97/98. It pretty much ruins that when hes getting squashed by Rey, Umaga and Matt Hard (who he destroyed along with Jeff in '97).
Once again, to be fair, though, he has beaten all those guys (with the exception of Umaga [RIP]). He beat Rey at SS 2010, and Matt Hardy at SS 2004. It looked like V was getting a big push too, before the WWE FE'd him.

Also, I fully expect him to lose to
Aksana next week, due to Orton interference
.
 

UberTag

Member
seriously why did vinnie stop going to canada ?
Biggest reason is that Carl DeMarco abandoned ship right around the time of Breaking Point. Carl had a great deal of influence was intrumental in Canada landing multiple pay-per-view events during the heyday of the 1990s and early 2000s... following in the footsteps of Jack Tunney. His influence and motivation was largely used up by the time he left and nobody else has stepped up in his absence.

Frankly, I'm surprised the WWE still gets the exposure they do north of the border through The Score (they're actually airing NXT on Thursdays during primetime for crying out loud). Wrestling ratings have tanked in Canada far worse than they have down south. UFC is king up here due in large part to Georges St-Pierre's run of dominance.

But yeah... in case it was missed when I mentioned it above, no PPVs in Toronto since 2006.
 

jmdajr

Member
Biggest reason is that Carl DeMarco abandoned ship right around the time of Breaking Point. Carl had a great deal of influence was intrumental in Canada landing multiple pay-per-view events during the heyday of the 1990s and early 2000s... following in the footsteps of Jack Tunney. His influence and motivation was largely used up by the time he left and nobody else has stepped up in his absence.

Frankly, I'm surprised the WWE still gets the exposure they do north of the border through The Score (they're actually airing NXT on Thursdays during primetime for crying out loud). Wrestling ratings have tanked in Canada far worse than they have down south. UFC is king up here due in large part to Georges St-Pierre's run of dominance.

But yeah... in case it was missed when I mentioned it above, no PPVs in Toronto since 2006.

what a shame...

Not exactly related.... How did Chris Benoit effect the people who watched wrestling in Canada? Has his memory been erased?
 
But yeah... in case it was missed when I mentioned it above, no PPVs in Toronto since 2006.

Bloody hell, that was back at Unforgiven with the TLC match if i'm not mistaken, aside from the previous points as to why it hasn't had a ppv in years I wouldn't put it past Vince to fear those "Bizarro world" fan reactions.
Speaking of which I have to laugh at WWE for having Cena beat Edge in his hometown in his speciality match, overcoming those odds. (though granted Edge beat Cena in his hometown a month prior)
 

dream

Member
I've still been going through the Observer and posting the interesting bits, spindasher. I guess nobody notices because I don't do the big stories anymore and I don't even really watch pro wrestling so my idea of interesting is probably completely different from what everyone else wants to read about.
 

UberTag

Member
Bloody hell, that was back at Unforgiven with the TLC match if i'm not mistaken, aside from the previous points as to why it hasn't had a ppv in years I wouldn't put it past Vince to fear those "Bizarro world" fan reactions.
Speaking of which I have to laugh at WWE for having Cena beat Edge in his hometown in his speciality match, overcoming those odds. (though granted Edge beat Cena in his hometown a month prior)
I wouldn't knock that feud. It's still the most evenly matched feud Cena has ever had.

Between his 12 WWE & World Heavyweight Championship reigns, Edge has either taken the title off Cena or been instrumental in him losing the title (see his run-in at One Night Stand) no less than FOUR times.

And he never had a lame tag title win while feuding with him, either.

I've still been going through the Observer and posting the interesting bits, spindasher. I guess nobody notices because I don't do the big stories anymore and I don't even really watch pro wrestling so my idea of interesting is probably completely different from what everyone else wants to read about.
You have the best taste in what's interesting in the business of anyone actively posting in this thread. I'll take one post from you for every 1000 from G-Fex posting about his E-Fed and still enjoy your contribution more.
 

RBH

Member
I've still been going through the Observer and posting the interesting bits, spindasher. I guess nobody notices because I don't do the big stories anymore and I don't even really watch pro wrestling so my idea of interesting is probably completely different from what everyone else wants to read about.

I notice them!
 
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