Secret Character
Member
So you'd rather have Shang-Chi than Iron Fist be the martial arts badass of the marvel cinematic universe?
That's cool with me, actually. As long as Spider-Man gets trained by him at sone point.
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Marvel going street level w/ Netflix (Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist)
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That's cool with me, actually. As long as Spider-Man gets trained by him at sone point.
Entryhazard
Banned
razzmahtazz
Member
I think theyre gonna hide the Kun Lun stuff for now. Iron Fist will start off like DD did. Middle of his superhero career already. Then slowly build up his origin. I wonder which good martial arts film it could emulate? Karate Kid? Enter the Dragon? Forbidden Kingdom? Last Samurai? Ong-bak? Ip-man?
Entryhazard
Banned
Dude wasn't even called daredevil until the last episode
have you read the recent Iron Fist series?
People don't hear that.
And Jimmy Woo 20 years before both of them, though he isn't a martial artist. He is a great Asian character.
Entryhazard
Banned
Iron Fist debates always turn into a contest of who makes everyone else look the most racist
jackissocool
Member
Daredevil definitely did not start in the middle of his career. That was thoroughly origin.
What if they split the difference and get a white-looking mixed Asian (e.g. Skye/Quake) raised in America by his white grand parents? That way you still get a cultural outsider that also looks like an outsider but who has some ancestral connection to Asia.
I don't really care as long as the show is good. It'll be interesting to see how Marvel deals with all the baggage that comes with many characters being created in the 60s when racial politics was different.
I don't really care as long as the show is good. It'll be interesting to see how Marvel deals with all the baggage that comes with many characters being created in the 60s when racial politics was different.
krypt0nian
Banned
IMO "make 'em Asian" shits all over the great Asian characters we ALREADY have and enjoy. I would find it insulting if the only way I could get an Asian characters featured would be to race swap from an already accepted character.
Use the fucking amazing characters of color you already have. I'm gay and I feel the same was about suddenly making established characters gay for diversity. Use the existing gay characters. Give them the spotlight. I want the characters I love featured, not a suddenly gay Spider-man.
Use the fucking amazing characters of color you already have. I'm gay and I feel the same was about suddenly making established characters gay for diversity. Use the existing gay characters. Give them the spotlight. I want the characters I love featured, not a suddenly gay Spider-man.
Rastafarian42
Member
Yeah I'm starting to feel that way tbh especially if you think about all the stuff going on the fraction run. TV just doesn't have the budget needed for the supernatural elements.
krypt0nian
Banned
The Flash does crazy huge things on the regular. It's a proper superhero show.
eastx
Member
Pretty much. Or who least understands the need for diversity in television and movies.
krypt0nian
Banned
I admire you for ALWAYS bring up lesser known but ofter superior characters here.
#useyourcharctersalready
I do Doom's work. But i truly love comics, warts and all. And they have so much greatness, folks just need to look.
I think some people who grew up reading the comics have a sort of blind spot for the lack of diversity in many of these stories. It's easier to notice these problems once these properties start being adapted for the big and small screens though.
Take the casting of a Spider-Man movie, for instance: Spider-Man's got to be Peter Parker (white dude), right? And we need to have Uncle Ben (white dude) and Aunt May (white lady). But you can't have Spider-Man and not have Norman Osborne (white dude)! And what's Norman Osborne without James Franco (white dude)? If it's set during his high-school years, Peter has to be able to turn the tables on that bully, Flash Gordon (white dude). And let's not forget his love interest(s), Mary Jane Watson and/or Gwen Stacy (white ladies)!
Which is probably the reason why those Sam Raimi movies (that I love) basically looked like this:
There's been a problem with diversity and representation in comic books that writers have clearly been trying to address for years, I don't see why we should lose sight of that here.
Take the casting of a Spider-Man movie, for instance: Spider-Man's got to be Peter Parker (white dude), right? And we need to have Uncle Ben (white dude) and Aunt May (white lady). But you can't have Spider-Man and not have Norman Osborne (white dude)! And what's Norman Osborne without James Franco (white dude)? If it's set during his high-school years, Peter has to be able to turn the tables on that bully, Flash Gordon (white dude). And let's not forget his love interest(s), Mary Jane Watson and/or Gwen Stacy (white ladies)!
Which is probably the reason why those Sam Raimi movies (that I love) basically looked like this:
There's been a problem with diversity and representation in comic books that writers have clearly been trying to address for years, I don't see why we should lose sight of that here.
Buddha Beam
Banned
Meh. I would just make Shang Chi a major element of the show. Make it essentially about those two guys. That seems like the most elegant way to avoid racism accusations.
That is Hollywood, comics have always had very diverse casts, event if they are just supporting characters. Movies, not so much.I think some people who grew up reading the comics have a sort of blind spot for the lack of diversity in many of these stories. It's easier to notice these problems once these properties start being adapted for the big and small screens though.
Take the casting of a Spider-Man movie, for instance: Spider-Man's got to be Peter Parker (white dude), right? And we need to have Uncle Ben (white dude) and Aunt May (white lady). But you can't have Spider-Man and not have Norman Osborne (white dude)! And what's Norman Osborne without James Franco (white dude)? If it's set during his high-school years, Peter has to be able to turn the tables on that bully, Flash Gordon (white dude). And let's not forget his love interest(s), Mary Jane Watson and/or Gwen Stacy (white ladies)!
Which is probably the reason why those Sam Raimi movies (that I love) basically looked like this:
There's been a problem with diversity and representation in comic books that writers have clearly been trying to address for years, I don't see why we should lose sight of that here.
I mean Spider Man was messing around with a black chick in the 70s.
Look how they watered down Robbie, dude was the only person that could reign jjj in, but dude had 3 lines through 3 movies.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Cute little anecdote relevant to the discussion at hand. http://thatjayjustice.tumblr.com/post/123158745749/the-bitch-goddess-success
(Yeah, you're right, I meant comics writers have tried to address this problem)
But you also touch on another point: it's the supporting characters who end up being persons of color, and it always feels like they are literally there to inject 'color' into the story or the cast. When the majority of these comic books tend to have white protagonists and non-white supporting characters, that is a matter of genuine concern. Fixing that in the television or movie adaptations isn't necessarily a bad thing when done right.
And saying that "they shouldn't change a white character into a non-white character, they should just make more non-white characters" would be an admirable stance, if that's how things work in the real world. These studios feel that they have to cater to the die-hard crowd first and foremost, for fear of the backlash and negative press they might get over putting Miles Morales in the Civil War movie. Why do you think that the Avengers, through Phase 1 and the majority of Phase 2, have been predominantly straight white men? There've been multiple articles detailing the reasons why Black Widow being the only woman on the team has been incredibly problematic. Plus, we have, what, three years to go before we see a black Avenger or a female Avenger get their own movie?
Making Iron Fist an Asian American or a Hispanic American wouldn't have to change the dynamics of the character or the story that much. Daredevil having an African American Ben Urich didn't (or it kinda did, making him a black man pretty much guaranteed that he wouldn't make it to Civil War).
That's heart-warming.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I'm really not getting the whole outrage about having none white characters in Marvels movies honestly. I'm a very liberal british 20 something but the geek in me is adamant that changing a characters racial background to fit a minority quota just isn't a thing that should even be considered.
Marvel has a very strong cast of people that don't fit the CIS white male and they will ultimately get their time to shine if they as a character warrant it. Marvel has Luke Cage, Black Panther and Falcon on the main page. Agent's of shield has a really diverse cast too.
It's like theirs a level of hypocrisy. I don't think you can really moan about white washing ( a practice I'm also not cool with) and then when the reverse isn't done you still moan.
No viable reasons exists for making a character a different race than the source material.
On the topic of the CW shows. I originally hated Arrow and wrote flash of as the same but once I got the boring initial island stuff of Arrow out the way the show became something great, the tie in's with Flash are great and really add a sense of universe to the whole thing. It's a real shame that WB/DC are being dicks about the BvS movie and limiting characters that they can use and undermining them by eventually casting a new flash and a new arrow for those movies.
The diversity of the flash cast in particular is really good and it's nice to see the anecdotal tweet linked above adding enjoyment for a younger viewer.
Marvel has a very strong cast of people that don't fit the CIS white male and they will ultimately get their time to shine if they as a character warrant it. Marvel has Luke Cage, Black Panther and Falcon on the main page. Agent's of shield has a really diverse cast too.
It's like theirs a level of hypocrisy. I don't think you can really moan about white washing ( a practice I'm also not cool with) and then when the reverse isn't done you still moan.
No viable reasons exists for making a character a different race than the source material.
On the topic of the CW shows. I originally hated Arrow and wrote flash of as the same but once I got the boring initial island stuff of Arrow out the way the show became something great, the tie in's with Flash are great and really add a sense of universe to the whole thing. It's a real shame that WB/DC are being dicks about the BvS movie and limiting characters that they can use and undermining them by eventually casting a new flash and a new arrow for those movies.
The diversity of the flash cast in particular is really good and it's nice to see the anecdotal tweet linked above adding enjoyment for a younger viewer.
Do you really need someone to explain why making a non-white character white isn't even remotely comparable to doing the reverse?
Say, for instance, that a writer decides that Black Panther should be white in some new continuity. Do I need to spell out why that's at all different from making Captain America black?
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Captain America is a WW2 poster boy who also mirrors a Nietzsche inspired Aryan. Making Captain America Black is EXACTLY the same as Making Black Panther white.
The comparison is awful.
Now granted. Making black panther white isn't the same as making someone who on the face of it has no immediate requirement to be white (like peter parker)
However Peter Parker being any minority would add a second layer of "social struggle" to the character that detracts from his "everyman" theme. The point of peter is he is basically a lower to middle class white kid who has all the benefits afforded to him because of privilege but still has hard times because everyone does and he becomes the hero to everyone after having traumatic events (free from racial or sexual prejudiced) happen to him.
Who?
So, a WW2-era Captain America absolutely needs to be the embodiment of Nietzsche's Aryan Übermensch? A black Captain America would somehow lessen the political message that the comic was trying to convey?
And a black Spider-Man can't be an "everyman"? Also, I find it hard to believe that Stan Lee (and whoever else was responsible for creating Peter Parker) consciously felt that "white privilege" was intrinsic to the character's genesis. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I doubt they were that socially conscious in the 60s.
SillyEskimo
Member
They shoved Macy Gray in there for some diversity and that went great.
Glory Grant, Peter be having women thirsting
Isiash Bradley's story was very different than Steve rogers
Isiash Bradley's story was very different than Steve rogers
I wasn't talking about Isaiah Bradley specifically (I was actually initially referencing Sam Wilson being the new Cap when replying to StalkerUKCG).
Think about it, a WW2-era Captain America could easily be black, which would send an even stronger message that a Jewish German scientist and a black American can not only subvert Nazi ideology, but reject it wholesale.
And I think that Chris Evans' Steve Rogers (and everything he stands for) is one of the best things about the MCU.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I'm failing to see the point. Just because we live in a shitty world in which certain minority's suffered means that we can have a double standard doesn't really fly I'm afraid.
I might be looking at this from a different view point. I'm British and fully immersed in a multicultural society and none of my extended social group have a sniff of racism in them and I've never witnessed the effects of racism at all.
Americans have a different outlook on this issue clearly it seems.
I still don't see why it's the place of Marvel movies or any other triple A popcorn blockbuster movies to be race bending to appease people and tackle the issue of racism when it can undermine a character thematically.
I'm firmly in the same camp as Michelle Rodriguez on this issue.
If "Hollywood" have a problem using the minority characters in marvel and DC who are big hitters then that is a separate issue.
For what it's worth I'd rather see Jon Stewart as Green Lantern and casting Jason Mamoa (someone of mixed heritage) as Aquaman is a casting choice I actually like. It doesn't undermine Aquaman in anyway. He doesn't have to be a CIS White Male like Peter Parker or Steve Rogers do. Heimdall being played by Idris is again something I'm fine with, He is a minor character, Being white isn't integral to his part (AFAIK).
Different peoples views will never align on this but wanting white characters to stay white isn't coming from a racist place. I hope no one is offended by what I'm posting.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
But then you are fundamentally changing the character. In this particular instance, changing Steve Roger's race absolutely impacts the character. It's not the case with every character for sure, but I think with Black Panther, Storm, Cap and Bruce Wayne race is pretty integral to their character and back story.
Then you want it to be superficial? They still had segregated units in WW2, and if they were testing syphilis in the real world on black people, i can only imagine the horrors they would test on black people in the marvel universe.
Yes, Britain doesn't have the stain of racism upon its history in the way that the US does. Imperialism? What's that? Anti-immigrant sentiment? UKIP, never heard of it. I only use the word Pachy in Paleontological terms, to refer to the Family Pachycephalosauridae!
Apologies.
A black Steve Rogers in the 1940s would have lived a very, very different life than a white Steve Rogers. So that change is a no-go. If you want to make a different type of story with a different type of Captain America, I'd be all for it - I'd love to see someone try and tackle Truth: Red, White, and Black in a mainstream movie! But it wouldn't be Steve Rogers.
The difference in life experience between a white Danny Rand and an Asian Danny Rand in the 21st cenury would not, in my opinion, be substantial. Same with Peter Parker or Matt Murdock or Tony Stark. These are characters whose life experiences hinge on socio-economic identity - they're rich or poor, popular or unpopular. Those are issues that definitely have an ethnic component, but that cut across racial demographics.
The difference in life experience between a white Danny Rand and an Asian Danny Rand in the 21st cenury would not, in my opinion, be substantial. Same with Peter Parker or Matt Murdock or Tony Stark. These are characters whose life experiences hinge on socio-economic identity - they're rich or poor, popular or unpopular. Those are issues that definitely have an ethnic component, but that cut across racial demographics.
This is actually one reason I'm not a huge fan of the race-shift for Ultimate Nick Fury; it fundamentally guts his background in WWII. Ultimate Fury is fuckin' badass and as good, if not better, than the original, but it's such a major change in backstory that it's always felt weird to me. Should have been an original character if you ask me.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
This is clearly moving from an actual discussion to people ban baiting. I'm not getting involved further because It's as if because our views on the subject are different I'm automagically a racist.
If anyone is upset about anything I've posted feel free to PM me but I apologize regardless.
I'm not posting any more on the topic because I can't be bothered to dance around my point in fear that something I can say might be taken as racist by people who clearly don't want to discuss the current topic and instead just want heads(accounts) to roll to elevate their opinion and shame others.
If anyone is upset about anything I've posted feel free to PM me but I apologize regardless.
I'm not posting any more on the topic because I can't be bothered to dance around my point in fear that something I can say might be taken as racist by people who clearly don't want to discuss the current topic and instead just want heads(accounts) to roll to elevate their opinion and shame others.
I'm fully aware of the Tuskegee experiments, but if Steve Rogers needs to be white just to mirror the symbol of Nazi racial purity, then that is no less superficial.
And no, I don't actually want Steve Rogers to suddenly turn into a black man. But if the very first Captain America was rebooted to be black, I don't see why there would be a problem.
Nowhere have I stated that Steve Rogers needs to be black. Or Peter Parker, or have I said that T'challa needs to be white. I have never once referred to the individuals themselves, for good reason. Trying to claim that I want Steve Rogers or Bruce Wayne to pull a Nick Fury and suddenly transform into Samuel L. Jackson is disingenuous.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Literally none of that is happening in real life. It's in your head, mate.
What on earth are you on about? Did I say you claimed that anywhere?
StalkerUKCG
Banned
If that's true then good, but still. I've said my piece on the issue. I really don't have more to say so I'm done.
Eugh, sorry, that sounded way harsher than I meant it to.
I merely wanted to say that you can have a WW2-Cap be black, with all the experiences and struggles that would entail for that individual, and still be able to tell the same story.
A lot of the replies here are about Steve Rogers, for some reason, when I've never said that Steve Rogers needs to be black.
TDLink
Member
All I'm going to say on the subject is that Danny Rand should be white. If they want to make an Iron Fist show about one of the other Iron Fists (most of which are in fact Asian) then that's fine by me. But if it's Danny Rand keep him white.
It is a problem overall that all of the well known superheroes are white guys, but that's a product of those primarily being what the characters in the comics were. Thankfully Marvel is bringing in more black heroes and female heroes with War Machine, Falcon, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Ms. Marvel. It's not a bad effort, especially considering how white male dominated the Marvel Universe is. Unfortunately there aren't too many great established Asian characters. That said, I'm not a fan of changing a character's race just for the sake of saying "look, now we have a character that is Asian!" We can have an Asian Iron Fist just like we now have a Black Spider-Man or Black Captain America. The important thing is they are not making actual characters like Peter Parker or Steve Rogers black, they are making new characters (or old characters that had a different alias) take up the mantle of those heroes. That's the right way to go about it. Making Danny Rand non-white is just going to piss off fans of the character and it simply isn't necessary.
It is a problem overall that all of the well known superheroes are white guys, but that's a product of those primarily being what the characters in the comics were. Thankfully Marvel is bringing in more black heroes and female heroes with War Machine, Falcon, Black Panther, Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Ms. Marvel. It's not a bad effort, especially considering how white male dominated the Marvel Universe is. Unfortunately there aren't too many great established Asian characters. That said, I'm not a fan of changing a character's race just for the sake of saying "look, now we have a character that is Asian!" We can have an Asian Iron Fist just like we now have a Black Spider-Man or Black Captain America. The important thing is they are not making actual characters like Peter Parker or Steve Rogers black, they are making new characters (or old characters that had a different alias) take up the mantle of those heroes. That's the right way to go about it. Making Danny Rand non-white is just going to piss off fans of the character and it simply isn't necessary.
Affeinvasion
Member
Regarding the whole captain America thing, I think the part that's missing here is that all those guys who wrote those comics were jewish. At the time it was important for them to make heroes that looked like them and equally looked like the Nazis who could fight the Nazis and win. There's a lot to say about superman and cap basically being Hitler's ideal and yet still being opposed fundamentally to his principles. Could cap have been black? Sure. But stan Lee made cap to be more like himself.
Why are you spoilering that?
Thats the thing about adaptations. They are not the same character. Ultimate Fury is a brand new character that happens to share some traits with his 616 version. Its funny seeing people so against certain changes but not give a fuck about others. No one complains that Tony is a completely different character in the MCU than what he has ever been portrayed as in the comics. Hulk has a completely different origin which imo throws out the most important part of the gamma accident. That it wasn't his fault and he was exposed because Banner decided to save the life of Rick Jones. Thor isn't a god, which baffles me honestly what is the point of a non-god Thor? Why not use a different character why call him Thor or Asgardian at all? Black Widow didn't get injected with the Infinity Formula and is her apparent age. Hawkeye is a completely new character a mix of his 616 and Ult versions but married and has kids, a huge character change that actually makes me question why they used him at all.
I mean all these changes and somehow making a character black, latino or asian and suddenly its no longer true to the comics.
MuddyDonut
Member
Exactly. They can change almost everything about a character but his race makes people go wild. Ridiculous.
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