Marvels Secret Wars by Hickman & Ribic |OT| Everything ends... Everything begins

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Inorigo said:
Hickman is supposed to be the planner.

When you have plans that people aren't privy to, why lie? It's too simple. It's not the 616 family.
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Hickman specifically said in an interview that Sue and the kids are dead just like everything else 616 not Doom, Strange, MM and the life rafters.
 
Inorigo said:
Hickman is supposed to be the planner.

When you have plans that people aren't privy to, why lie? It's too simple. It's not the 616 family.
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So did he transmute his semen to Richards seed to get Val and Franklin? Seems like they weren't born before Battleworld.
 
Mudcrab said:
Hickman specifically said in an interview that Sue and the kids are dead just like everything else 616 not Doom, Strange, MM and the life rafters.
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Right, that's what I'm referring to.

Nils said:
So did he transmute his semen to Richards seed to get Val and Franklin? Seems like they weren't born before Battleworld.
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Implanted memories. I mean, I thought this was one of the first conclusions we drew? It's all fake.

Edit: Oh, how were they born? Who can say. Good question.
 
Coriolanus said:
We've pondered that previously, and the reason why it's kinda easy to accept that maybe those are not, in fact, the 616 FF Family, is because then Vic would basically be pretty much raping Susan. Think it was kwiston or someone else that raised a point along those lines.
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Why can't it be, story-wise?

My problem is with time passing. Strange says 7 years since the creation of Battleworld, and the kids seem a couple years older than that, but they look as old as before the last incursion. Yet we also saw other heroes being years older, most notably an adult Kamala Khan (granted, she isn't 616, and the domain she was in looked like
a simulation played over and over again
)
 
Khaz said:
Why can't it be, story-wise?

My problem is with time passing. Strange says 7 years since the creation of Battleworld, and the kids seem a couple years older than that, but they look as old as before the last incursion. Yet we also saw other heroes being years older, most notably an adult Kamala Khan (granted, she isn't 616, and the domain she was in looked like
a simulation played over and over again
)
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Yeah, that's what I meant by the story not adding up, but then the kids have always been drawn older than their actual ages.
 
Khaz said:
Why can't it be, story-wise?
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Out of character. Vic killing those close to him is nothing new, as seen by what he has done to the girl he loved and what he did to Stephen.

Vic going "i wants me some of dat milf invisi-pussy", however, is. He's Dr. Doom, not Dr. Light.
 
Coriolanus said:
We've pondered that previously, and the reason why it's kinda easy to accept that maybe those are not, in fact, the 616 FF Family, is because then Vic would basically be pretty much raping Susan. Think it was kwiston or someone else that raised a point along those lines.

If they aren't 616, tho, it makes no sense whatsoever for the Fantastic Foundation to be hanging around, all intact-like.
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They may not be the 616 characters, but there is more to the Fantastic Four in Secret Wars than Sue thinks she knows. We know that Battleworld has only existed for 8 years, but everyone else thinks it's been around forever. Sue's retelling of the Fantastic Four backstory is suspect.
 
Coriolanus said:
Out of character. Vic killing those close to him is nothing new, as seen by what he has done to the girl he loved and what he did to Stephen.

Vic going "i wants me some of dat milf invisi-pussy", however, is. He's Dr. Doom, not Dr. Light.
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Although it can be argued that it's rape, and I would agree, the situation we are presented is completely detached from the reality of rape in our world. As such we should try to mitigate our emotional reactions to the word.

Doom isn't about "getting dat pussy", he's about having a family, and this one in particular. Even though it started with a memory loss, everything after was done entirely willingly by Sue. There is no mind control, there is no unwillingness, the story tells us that outside of that hypothetical event, there have been normal courtship, mating and relationship just like any other normal couple and family. She loves him unconditionally and he is grateful for that fact.

In fact, I would say that it's the ideal situation for Doom. Anything less, like mind control, wouldn't have been good enough for him. He would want Sue to genuinely fall in love with him, he would want to know that it could happen if Reed never were. And this is exactly what happened: as we are told, he met with a Reed-less Sue, and successfully court her and proceed to start a family. Whether she arrived in a life raft with her dad or she was transported from 616 and had her memory altered doesn't change the fact that after this very specific event, everything else happened naturally; as he would have wanted.

But yes, if Doom had altered her memories so that he can possess her, he is a terrible person and it's akin to rape in the sense that he got what she initially refused to give and would never agree to if she had an intact mind. But this is very, very different from real-world rape and I don't think this word should be trivialised with such far-fetched stories.

PS: I don't know much about previous Doom stories, I'm basing my reflections entirely on what I read since the beginning of this event.
 
Regardless of the rape issue and out-of-character discussions,

The whole setup is suspicious. On one hand Sue's story is believable, Johnny-in-the-sky has been there for a very long time, almost since the beginning, and so has been the Grimm-wall. On the other hand the kids look like carbon copies of the 616 fantastic family, and it's not just because it's drawings, as 616 Spider Man instantly recognise Valeria. If they had a different father, they would look different. They would be different people entirely. But if this is 616 Sue then she couldn't have been there since the beginning, she would have had to appear mind-wiped with her children like a few months before our story starts at most, otherwise the kids would be adults by now.
 
So, it looks like I got it wrong. It's not the whole family, just the Storms - Just Sue and Johnny.

Then, as you said and we saw, he's placed himself in the role of Reed Richards and Sue Richard's official title on Battleworld is royal consort. So does that mean exactly what we think it means?

She is his wife. I don't want there to be any confusion, and we'll get into it a little bit more, but the Susan and Johnny that we talk about in this issue are not the Marvel Universe Susan and Johnny that died in issue #1. Those people are dead and gone. This is a different Sue from a different Earth, and I'll leave it at that for now.
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http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/hickman-talks-secret-wars-3-battleworlds-key-players

So Ben, Franklin, Val etc should all be from 616 + mind wiped/implanted memories.
 
Plus there is a very low likelihood that hickman won't reuse that bit when, to justify how Vic was accepted, he explained the power of narrative in the battleworld to the people in the lifeboats.

Also we already know that at least the part about johnny volunteering to become the sun was a straight lie-to-children.
 
I just read all of Ms Marvel today and I'm looking forward to the last issue in a few days. Really good series.
Whatever comes of this fuckery, I hope they get to expand her story or keep it going, although with the same restrained, and tactful tone they have employed so far.
 
There are still a few Secret Wars books trickling out admist the ANAD stuff:

This Week's Books:

A-Force #5
Civil War #5
Marvel Zombies #4
Ms Marvel #19
 
Civil War, Ms Mahvel and Uncanny Avengers for me.

Has the Marvel website been not wanting to load for anyone else the last couple weeks?

It's not even showing any of the SW tie-ins even when I click on SHOW MORE.
 
twozerotwo said:
Civil War, Ms Mahvel and Uncanny Avengers for me.

Has the Marvel website been not wanting to load for anyone else the last couple weeks?

It's not even showing any of the SW tie-ins even when I click on SHOW MORE.
Click to expand...

I was reading Hickman's F4/FF on it very recently. It loads fine for me. The iOS app has actually been much better than normal for me, too.
 
MasterOfPastures said:
It was the last thing I expected from a book made by one of the "Big Two". I'm hoping they keep Wilson to write for her second season.
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They are!
All-New-All-Different-Marvel-Ms-Marvel-1.jpg
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Kamala <3

Will be back for volume two. Most "fun" Marvel book for the last few years. Can't wait to see her in the Avengers lol.

Civil War ending wasn't bad... but I dunno, it kinda missed something. Still better than the original series.
Also, Wolverine Hulk WHAT
 
Sadist said:
Kamala <3

Will be back for volume two. Most "fun" Marvel book for the last few years. Can't wait to see her in the Avengers lol.

Civil War ending wasn't bad... but I dunno, it kinda missed something. Still better than the original series.
Also, Wolverine Hulk WHAT
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Civil War felt it should have been an issue longer to deal with the big twist.
 
Inorigo said:
Hickman is supposed to be the planner.

When you have plans that people aren't privy to, why lie? It's too simple. It's not the 616 family.
Click to expand...

Because if in the end it comes out he basically kidnapped Reed's family and that is what makes Reed snap and burn battleworld down. That is a huge story spoiler to give away as early as that interview.

I'm still hoping we get a confirmation all the black swans were just different versions of Valeria from different realities.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
Because if in the end it comes out he basically kidnapped Reed's family and that is what makes Reed snap and burn battleworld down. That is a huge story spoiler to give away as early as that interview.
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It would also be super creepy and completely taint what he's been going for with everyone being a shade of grey morally. Doom would undeniably be the bad guy, instead of what he is now.
 
Zeus Molecules said:
Because if in the end it comes out he basically kidnapped Reed's family and that is what makes Reed snap and burn battleworld down. That is a huge story spoiler to give away as early as that interview.

I'm still hoping we get a confirmation all the black swans were just different versions of Valeria from different realities.
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I just think it's too simple.

As for the bolded, is there anything that supports that being that case? Beyond Swan's general demeanor? Her origins are interesting. I think someone already asked if she's a mutant and Hickman said no.

B-Dubs said:
It would also be super creepy and completely taint what he's been going for with everyone being a shade of grey morally. Doom would undeniably be the bad guy, instead of what he is now.
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Yep, this too. If he's just lying suddenly Doom is a very one-dimensional textbook villain. Hickman doesn't play him like that. Can't see him switching the style in the 25th hour.
 
Khaz said:
Although it can be argued that it's rape, and I would agree, the situation we are presented is completely detached from the reality of rape in our world. As such we should try to mitigate our emotional reactions to the word....

But yes, if Doom had altered her memories so that he can possess her, he is a terrible person and it's akin to rape in the sense that he got what she initially refused to give and would never agree to if she had an intact mind. But this is very, very different from real-world rape and I don't think this word should be trivialised with such far-fetched stories.
Click to expand...

What about last thursdayism (which seems similar)? Would that not be the same unless someone intentionally caused it? If someone caused such would they be solely responsible? If no one caused it, and it was found out, what would that mean in terms of consent?
 
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