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Marvel's Spider-Man movies and the Osborne problem...

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Shaanyboi

Banned
Among so many comic superheroes, only a handful are lucky to have character-defining stories that become iconic staples of the medium. Sometimes it's a single moment, sometimes it's a full arc. Stories that, no matter how many times a character gets rebooted, you just know that that is a story that needs to be touched upon. Of the handful of times you can get a character put on-screen before the actor gets too old, you've prioritized the most important moments for the character.

For example, if ever the Marvel Universe were to be rebooted, it's hard to picture a Captain America where the Winter Soldier isn't tackled in some way. Or where we won't see Civil War redone. You can bet the next Superman reboot will show Krypton again.

Now, Marvel has the reins to do their Spider-Man the way they want it done. Spider-Man is one of those the few that has multiple iconic moments. But the slate still isn't really clean. Some of these moments over two franchises have been done repeatedly, and it's put the Marvel Spider-Man movie in a weird position of being forced to work around this stuff.

-both have done the death of Uncle Ben
-of the 5 previous movies, every alternating film has done the Green Goblin, and both franchises have had the Green Goblin dropping the female lead (in the first film, MJ was dropped from the bridge but saved, and in ASM2, Gwen was dropped and killed in the clocktower)
-both franchises portray the fall of Harry Osborne
-both franchises have Spidey quitting for a period of time

On one hand, it's a blessing in disguise that this forces them to not retread the origin with extended detail. While Uncle Ben is bound to be touched upon in Homecoming, they don't need to spend 45 minutes building up to Peter putting on the suit. And it also means we can get some time showcasing some other villains outside of the Goblin for atleast a little while. Maybe we can break the cycle of Goblin showing up every other movie.

But at the same time, the fall of the Osbornes is one of the most important parts of the Spider-Man lore. Not every villain in Spider-Man's roster is worthy to carry a movie (ex. Electro). Some of these guys, Sandman, Rhino, Shocker, etc. are just goons. And that's fine. Homecoming looks to be using Shocker in maybe only a small capacity that suits him. Spider-Man 3 tried to force a backstory onto Sandman that nobody cared about. Hell, ASM2's use of Rhino, not as some emotional nemesis but instead just a "business-as-usual" threat for Spidey to take down, is probably one of the freshest things in that franchise. But again, the Green Goblin is the nemesis that attacks Spider-Man on a personal level. It's hard to not want to tell that story.

So, what's left for Homecoming to tackle before we start circling back to the Green Goblin? We're only just getting up to 10 years away from Raimi's trilogy, in which case, some of that ground is ready to be used again.

-The Sinister Six seems llke an obvious way to go. Or maybe merge it with the Master Planner framework? If only to show that image of Spidey under the rubble in the flooding lair.
-a moment where Flash Thompson gets wrongfully attacked while wearing the Spidey costume?
-"Face it, Tiger. You've just hit the jackpot."
-re-attempt the black suit/Venom story
- this leads to an eventual Agent Venom, maybe? Or Carnage if, y'know, they wanted to really dig into the bottom of the barrel...
-Scorpion? Alongside the Spider-Slayers?
-Prowler?
-Black Cat?
-Jackal and.... clones...
-a crime-centric story vs. Tombstone (as a stand-in for D'onofrio's Kingpin)
-Kraven's Last Hunt?

The tricky part is not all of these really affect Spider-Man really personally to create a real arc on their own. Someone like Scorpion or Mysterio could be cool to see, but it's also too easy for them to simply be villain-of-the-week type antagonists, making the movie simply feel episodic which is something the lesser Marvel movies get heavily criticized for. And typically, Marvel movies have far less-commonly sold their movies around the antagonist. Ultron, Loki, and Winter Soldier are maybe the biggest exceptions.

Which rounds us back to the core problem - all this is simply just bench-warming until that eventual end-credits tease of the Osbornes coming back into play. Norman or the black suit are really the only two things you can tease or set up that anyone is really going to get mass excited for the raising of emotional stakes in a sequel. Unless, y'know, you wanna tease Madame Web and really confuse everyone. Assuming this next movie is as good as we all hope it is, then of course we'll be excited for a sequel anyway. But when Marvel really tries and cares, they don't necessarily just coast on good-will like that. There's a reason they went to Civil War for Cap 3 instead of the Serpent Society. And there's a reason nobody remembers Malekith or Kurse from Thor 2. They seem to want to make sure the next time a solo character headlines a movie, there's an emotional reason to come back.

But we'll be fine as long as we stay away from iconic moments like this...

vyttypiyijooexilqch3.jpg
 
I always liked how the 90's animated series had the HobGoblin so up first as a kind of prototype by Osborne before the Green Goblin came.
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
You don't have to tease a well-known character to get people excited. The post-credits scene is usually aimed at the fans anyway, just look at the teases we got in Iron Man (Nick Fury), The Avengers (Thanos), X-Men Apocalypse (Essex Corp), or even Deadpool (Cable).

Considering Spider-Man has one of the most loyal followings ever and it's now made under the Marvel-flag, you could have Madame Web or even Spider-Ham in the post-credits tease and people will be excited.
 

Tobor

Member
Venom is trash. Leave him and Carnage and all that crap out of this series.

What I want to see is Peter stay in high school for a while. I'd love to see the John Hughes tone stay in place for at least a trilogy.
 

DeathoftheEndless

Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
Between Sony's original plans and what we know about Homecoming, I think they're building toward Sinister Six. The Osborns probably won't show up until the 3rd movie at the earliest.
 
I will never not laugh at that comic panel good lord.

As for Goblin, I have him as a prominent presence in the first two movies and then have him go full villain in the third.
 
They need Green Goblin but they also need to not blow their load with him immediately. Norman Osborn should be as much of a villain to the wider MCU as Green Goblin is to Spidey, so they need a version of Osborn that is more versatile than in previous movies.

And they can take their time building that up if they want. They can do villains like Mysterio earlier. And if I had my way we'd get Kraven built up as a major character in a previous film before they do Last Hunt as a movie.
 

McBryBry

Member
Mysterio would be cool, and I'm definitely down for a retry at the symbiotes done right. The Osborn's will have to come back eventually but there are good alternatives. I'd LOVE to see Kingpin, even better as a team up.
 

Sephzilla

Member
They need Green Goblin but they also need to not blow their load with him immediately. Norman Osborn should be as much of a villain to the wider MCU as Green Goblin is to Spidey, so they need a version of Osborn that is more versatile than in previous movies.

And they can take their time building that up if they want. They can do villains like Mysterio earlier. And if I had my way we'd get Kraven built up as a major character in a previous film before they do Last Hunt as a movie.

Agreed. Osborn has the direct threat to Spidey. He has a corporate arm (could rival Stark). He has political influence (which could threaten Cap, Fury, and whatever is left of Shield).
 
They need Green Goblin but they also need to not blow their load with him immediately. Norman Osborn should be as much of a villain to the wider MCU as Green Goblin is to Spidey, so they need a version of Osborn that is more versatile than in previous movies.

And they can take their time building that up if they want. They can do villains like Mysterio earlier. And if I had my way we'd get Kraven built up as a major character in a previous film before they do Last Hunt as a movie.
Kind of disappointed they used Keaton for Vulture, he'd have been perfect for Norman. He practically has the look too
 
Venom is trash. Leave him and Carnage and all that crap out of this series.

What I want to see is Peter stay in high school for a while. I'd love to see the John Hughes tone stay in place for at least a trilogy.

I want to see what Marvel would do with Venom. Could be cool.
 

YaBish

Member
Personally I'd love to see Kraven. If done right, he's a villain that could carry an entire film. Mysterio would also be cool, and with the whole special effects angle could make some really meta-quips about the mcu and homogeneity in Hollywood.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Personally I'd love to see Kraven. If done right, he's a villain that could carry an entire film. Mysterio would also be cool, and with the whole special effects angle could make some really meta-quips about the mcu and homogeneity in Hollywood.

The only way I could see Kraven as a primary antagonist in a movie is if you merged the story with Connors becoming the Lizard.

Stories if this lizard monster attracts Kraven to want to hunt it, Spidey is trying to save Connors from this violent monster he's become, but Kraven then deems Spider-Man to be worthy prey as well (if not moreso for thwarting his hunt of the Lizard). Then you have this potentially interesting three-way dynamic to keep either story from feeling too thin.
 

RangerX

Banned
Civil war and Winter soldier came after decades of Captain America Stories. They aren't in any way comparable to Uncle Ben, Norman Osborne or Krypton. If anything its The Red Skull would be revisited.
 

Anony

Member
i want a proper symbiote story
the suit and venom

i think there's just enough content to cover it in a movie, then hint on venom not being destroyed at the end + carniage
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
I could see them setting the seeds in a GoTG first or something like that. I'd trust Marvel doing an interesting take on Venom and the symbiotes
I trust them to do Venom and stop there before sticking their hands into the filth that is the rest of the symbiote trash.

Civil war and Winter soldier came after decades of Captain America Stories. They aren't in any way comparable to Uncle Ben, Norman Osborne or Krypton. If anything its The Red Skull would be revisited.

Except there's a reason they went straight to Winter Soldier for the sequel, and it's because that's the most interesting thread in the Captain America lore.
 
I never liked the Green Goblin as a villain. Osborn is fine, it's the Goblin identity I have a problem with. Just a lame Joker on a flying surfboard throwing pumpkin bombs around. Doctor Octopus is the better character and Spidey's true nemesis.
 

Lmo911

Member
Just spin the whole thing on it's head.

-Osbourne starts out as Iron Patriot after being asked to take over government over sight of enhanced beings.

-Like everyone and their grandmother, he tries in vein to replicate an enhanced super soldier serum. This could be your spider man origin or even the way he scores the SHIELD/HAMMER job.

-Desperate to keep up with his competition he starts taking the serum.

- Eventually he just rips off the damn armor hulk style and kaboom! Green Goblin.

The only downside here is that it's a hell of a lot similar to Abomination's origin in The Incredible Hulk. But who remembers that movie anyway?

Almost any earth bound villain is going to either need tech, juice, or magic to keep up with the avengers, so it's going to get muddy no matter what. What's important is that we have Osborne slowly going insane the whole time as he becomes one of the most powerful men on the planet.

Goblin can be a really, really, long burn if it needs to be.
 

Parallax

best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
I never liked the Green Goblin as a villain. Osborn is fine, it's the Goblin identity I have a problem with. Just a lame Joker on a flying surfboard throwing pumpkin bombs around. Doctor Octopus is the better character and Spidey's true nemesis.

Heh. No. Osborn has such a psychological grip on pete that it's not even funny. The only reason people even use Ock in the same sentence as Osborn is because of superior. And even then, Osborn slapped the fire outta him and told him to stay outta grown folks business
 

GAMEPROFF

Banned
Heh. No. Osborn has such a psychological grip on pete that it's not even funny. The only reason people even use Ock in the same sentence as Osborn is because of superior. And even then, Osborn slapped the fire outta him and told him to stay outta grown folks business
Slott hyped Ock as Peters Arch nemesis and nowadays when someone does a top 10, Ock is on 1.
No idea how anyone would even get that idea, its super laughable.
 
Heh. No. Osborn has such a psychological grip on pete that it's not even funny. The only reason people even use Ock in the same sentence as Osborn is because of superior. And even then, Osborn slapped the fire outta him and told him to stay outta grown folks business

As I said, I like Osborn as a bureaucratic figure (like the Kingpin or Luthor) that's obsessed with ruining Parker's life. It's just the Green Goblin persona that I think is lame as fuck. I haven't even read Superior Spider-Man but Doc Ock has plenty of iconic stories and he was portrayed to perfection by the god Alfred Molina.

He's also a perfect embodiment of most of Spider-Man's rogue gallery. He's a misguided scientist that can be ruthless but still has respect for Peter and some redeeeming qualities. Green Goblin is just crazy, he's more of a Batman type villain.
 
While not strictly a villain (which seems to be more what OP was referring to) to make up the meat of a storyline, one plot thread Marvel could tackle while also getting an explosion of fan hype going would be the introduction of Miles Morales to the story. Hell, since they're presumably not gonna have Peter killed off first to do it, that's an opportunity for more of an outright confrontation between the two.

Otherwise though, it might work to more deliberately play up the villain as an incidental but dangerous interruption of Peter's more personal issues and private life, rather than try and force some kind of emotional connection and responsibility. While yes a personal connection can raise the stakes if done well, it can also be a crutch if done too often and not properly developed - see how Yellowjacket turned out.

As for which villain I feel works most as a flat but interesting foe then, I would say Mysterio yeah. CGI is at a stage where that sort of character can really work in live action, maybe even use some live action stuff as part of the 'illusions' to throw the audience off. If need be he can challenge and drive Peter's personal development despite a lack of personal connection, given his (far as I understand it) particular ego and pride. Peter can be made to both literally and metaphorically chase after something that's not there, which is easy to mould into a story arc for a teen/young adult about figuring out what matters most to him. Yes, you'd have to work extra hard to sell audiences on this since its a less obvious choice, but I think with the right work on the visuals people would be sold just to see how insane it can get. Just look at their reaction to the trailers for Doctor Strange.
 
Heh. No. Osborn has such a psychological grip on pete that it's not even funny. The only reason people even use Ock in the same sentence as Osborn is because of superior. And even then, Osborn slapped the fire outta him and told him to stay outta grown folks business

Alfred Molinas excellent performance as Doc Ock must have made him a far more popular spiderman villian, surely?
 
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