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Marvel's Spider-Man movies and the Osborne problem...
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
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But thats why they seem to be adapting with the new movie
BKatastrophe
Member
What about Kingpin? I would argue that he's a far more defining character for Daredevil than Spidey, and Spidey has tons of other villains.
He'a actually the character I remember most from the 90's cartoon, aside from hobgoblin.
DeviantBoi
Member
I want to see Kraven, but he needs to be paired with a truly evil villain... someone like Carnage.
In the end, Spider-man and Kraven team up to take down Carnage.
In the end, Spider-man and Kraven team up to take down Carnage.
Ghost Rider
Member
I wouldn't mind a Spider-Man movie without a "villian" but it might have been ruined. It would have been cool to see something like Spider-Man take on punisher or another violent vigilante. But having it already been done in daredevil might have killed the chances for that.
Lil'DigiOp
Member
If they're gonna do Uncle Ben or Goblin callbacks then it needs to be the opener crawl like BvS
AuthenticM
Member
That would be fantastic.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
All I know is that I want Michael Stuhlbarg to be an MCU-enemy.
Also sucks we will never get Sam Rockwell as Carnage now.
Also sucks we will never get Sam Rockwell as Carnage now.
Septimus Prime
Member
The difference this time is that The Avengers are around, so instead of teasing a new villain at the end, they can just have Iron Man show up and talk about joining the team.
And I think they can also tackle the Green Goblin much like how they did in the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon. Just have him appear out of nowhere and wreck shit. We know he's Osborne, but which one?
And I think they can also tackle the Green Goblin much like how they did in the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon. Just have him appear out of nowhere and wreck shit. We know he's Osborne, but which one?
BKatastrophe
Member
I've been reading some more Dark Reign stuff, and I can say for sure with full conviction that I need Director of HAMMER Osborne more than anything
That is true.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Stuhlbarg is in Doctor Strange.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Thunderbolts/HAMMER/Dark Reign era Osborne is so good. Hell I'd be totally okay if we got that and never had him as Goblin
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Venom haters be damned, they need to do something with the symbiote. Venom is too iconic to just throw aside because some find his history to be contrived. Aren't most motives in superhero fiction forced, anyway?
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Osborn should be introduced as an Avengers villain, ideally as the leader of the Thunderbolts. I mean, the groundwork is already there, we even have the Iron Patriot armor as canon.
BKatastrophe
Member
I think we still need Goblin to really cement his descent into insanity. What makes HAMMER Osborne so interesting is that this insane man is playing the same game on a much bigger board, where his indulgence of his insane impulses fucks him over even more. The stakes are higher, but in order to show that, we need to see him on a smaller scale first
Pai Pai Master
Banned
True. Hope we can get there.
Honestly the stars are aligning for this. We have Thunderbolt Ross back in a prominent position, we have Zemo, and we will likely be getting Osborne in eventually. We can have ourselves a nice little Thunderbolts MCU arc that leads into Dark Reign.
Pity you couldn't see his bloody face most of the time.
Well, misery lives company.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
*INFINITY POST CREDIT*
Avengers have beaten Thanos. But the team is fragmented; what's more, the battle was fought off-world. There's no accolades, because the population of Earth will never really know or understand what happened. The Earth though, is in tatters.
Tony/Carol/Bucky forlornly turns on the TV
"Whatever atrocities have taken place over the last few weeks are unexplained, and undefended. The sudden disappearance of Tony Stark means the Avengers have disbanded... and we are left defenseless. As a citizen of New York, and the world, I cannot stand by and idly watch. And so, I've formulated a solution.... I've gathered the best of the best, and together we are going to put this world back into balance."
Fudgepuppy
Banned
Oh FML.
gutter_trash
Banned
Venom can only work after Infinty War not before
the Symbioite could be introduced during and after the battle with Thanos (instead of the OG Secret Wars)
the Symbioite could be introduced during and after the battle with Thanos (instead of the OG Secret Wars)
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I mean they can introduce the symbiote whatever way they want
More to the point there's no way they're fitting in a Spider-Man Homecoming 2 before Infinity War, so they might as well tag onto it.
gutter_trash
Banned
SM3 stepped too hard on the accelerator with the whole Symbiote arc.
ideally, we would have an entire movie with Spidey with the Symbiote then seperating from it at the very end while side storying Brock's life ruined
then have the sequel afterwards od Spidey v Venom
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Death of Gwen Stacy was written by someone who thought the comic book industry was going to cease to exist within 5 years and was trying to get a quick sales boost. It was the start of some of the worst trends that still persist today. They shouldn't ever do it on the big screen.
Way too late on that one
You should watch Amazing Spider-Man 2
Unless Phase 4 is building to Secret Wars itself.
The trick with the Venom story is it has to be done after Spidey has a routine going, and he has to be wearing the black suit in cloth form in a post-symbiote situation. The impact of Venom came largely from the fact that he was Spidey with all the power (more, even) and none of the responsibility. He was the familiar made threatening, and he bypassed all the usual defenses Spidey had put up between his personal life and his superhero life. Venom knew who Peter was. He knew where Peter lived. He knew who all of Peter's friends were. His first full appearance was just showing up at the Parkers' home in the shadows, where he's greeted by Mary Jane, who thinks he's Peter. Then the mask grows a mouth and grins at her and she freaks out. Can you even imagine that shot as a credits teaser for the next movie? It would be amazing if done properly.
On top of that, Venom is stronger, and he doesn't trigger Peter's spider-sense, which was a device that had become increasingly leaned on in the comics of the time. The first Venom story was about taking away all of Peter's safety nets and forcing him to confront this dark mirror of himself, this version of Spider-Man he could have become if he were a less moral or responsible person, the version he maybe was on the way to becoming if the Uncle Ben murder hadn't occurred. That's an interesting story, and an interesting exploration of a well established character, and that's why Venom was so popular. It's also why Venom became so tired so quickly, because there's not much else to do with the character after that. A decent Larson-drawn story followed where Venom was tricked into thinking Spider-Man was killed, and he proceeded to live happily on a deserted island. That lasted until Carnage showed up and Spidey had to bring Venom back to team up against the new symbiote. From there it all went to hell and now Venom is considered to be a shitty character.
But the truth is that Venom is a great character if you use him properly for that one initial story and then put him down and never pick him up again. The original Venom story would make a great movie but the odds that it would ever be done properly are slim because it requires a few things movie series are not great at:
1. You have to wait. Venom works only after Spider-Man is established with a semi-stable personal life/superhero life balance.
2. Spidey has to have had the alien symbiote costume, rejected it, and continued to wear a cloth version of the black suit. Part of the point of the Venom story is to get him back in the red and blues. So again, patience on the part of the filmmakers is needed.
3. Other stuff has to be happening while the Venom story is heating up. We're talking one or preferably two movies' worth of background buildup here. Once again, the whole "take your time" thing.
4. Eddie Brock can't be a pretty Peter mirror. He has to be a big, hulking monster of a bodybuilder, preferably not all that handsome in the face. Venom is a bully, he's power with no safety on. And he has to retain his weird obsession over protecting the "innocent," because that's what drives home the parallel to Spidey's superhero tendencies and makes Spidey wonder if he's not doing the same twisted thing when he decides who to protect.
Sony was never going to do it right, but Marvel just might. Considering how much buildup they've been giving Thanos for 4 years now, I'd like to see them start to tackle the Venom story seed planting in Phase 4.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
I saw it. What I am saying is that it's a bad idea to ever do it. It's something that never needs to be revisited.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
They did the scene well and gave it all of 10 minutes of emotional payoff. The Dark Knight is still the only comic film to do the "GF in a refrigerator" meme worth a shit.
slightconfuse
Banned
There is no problem. They need Osborn like Batman needs Joker or Superman needs Lex.
The only issue is that this time the draw is that Osborn is his nemesis, he is the villain, not Green Goblin.
Sure, Green Goblin is the iconic part of Osborn, but the Raimi trilogy proved the strongest parts were the Osborns as characters not as the Goblin. ASM 2 botched Goblin in large part to how they felt Green Goblin and the Green Goblin origin were more important than to who the Osborns were to Peter. Let's not even talk about that terrible transformation/disease.
I hope Norman appears in Homecoming and I'm still hoping it's Keaton.
The only issue is that this time the draw is that Osborn is his nemesis, he is the villain, not Green Goblin.
Sure, Green Goblin is the iconic part of Osborn, but the Raimi trilogy proved the strongest parts were the Osborns as characters not as the Goblin. ASM 2 botched Goblin in large part to how they felt Green Goblin and the Green Goblin origin were more important than to who the Osborns were to Peter. Let's not even talk about that terrible transformation/disease.
I hope Norman appears in Homecoming and I'm still hoping it's Keaton.
BKatastrophe
Member
I only want the Venom symbiote if Spidey gets it through a clothes-making machine.
You cant distinguish between Norman Osborn and the Green Goblin. Either you booth or you dont nobody of them.
Whoa, whoa, since when is carnage bottom of the barrel?
Isn't he like the most wanted spider-man villain? Not that I or any of my friends are huge comic buffs, so maybe they're way stupider in the comics, but every spidey fan I know just wants more symbiotes, especially since the only venom we got wasn't very good and we never even saw carnage.
Isn't he like the most wanted spider-man villain? Not that I or any of my friends are huge comic buffs, so maybe they're way stupider in the comics, but every spidey fan I know just wants more symbiotes, especially since the only venom we got wasn't very good and we never even saw carnage.
Secret Fawful
Member
People are not giving Otto enough credit. Otto is who Peter Parker was going to become if Uncle Ben hadn't died. Peter was on the path to becoming a supervillain out for himself, wanting revenge, and filled with anger.
The point behind Goblin shitting on Otto wasn't that Otto sucks, but that Otto has a shred inside him that wants to believe in good and trust someone and that believes he's smarter and better than everyone, and Norman knows how to manipulate him due to experience. Norman knows how to fuck with people's lives, and Otto is too serious and too easily affected to combat that well. Norman can find the good in people and destroy them with it.
Otto is a very compelling character, and a very compelling mirror for Spidey. Raimi's movie threw all of that away. Otto has more bad than good in him because he's a megalomaniac, but he could be reformed if Peter really tried.
The point behind Goblin shitting on Otto wasn't that Otto sucks, but that Otto has a shred inside him that wants to believe in good and trust someone and that believes he's smarter and better than everyone, and Norman knows how to manipulate him due to experience. Norman knows how to fuck with people's lives, and Otto is too serious and too easily affected to combat that well. Norman can find the good in people and destroy them with it.
Otto is a very compelling character, and a very compelling mirror for Spidey. Raimi's movie threw all of that away. Otto has more bad than good in him because he's a megalomaniac, but he could be reformed if Peter really tried.
Because he and Venom have no good storys. Venom jumped the shark right after his first story and Carnage ist still looking for his AAA storyline.
Symbiotes are mostly liked by people who only saw the cartoon or something but never touched a Comicbook.
Also, whats the point of dooing a PG rated Carnage movie? And no, nobody cares if Deadpool was successful, Spider-Man has insanely many young fans and they wont ditch them for an R-Rated Carnage movie.
He's a shitty expression of 90's comics trying really fucking hard to one-up their own edginess. "YO MAN, VENOM WAS LIKE THIS SCARY TODD MCFARLANE MONSTER THING. BUT NOW WE GOT THIS SCARIER TODD MCFARLANE MONSTER THING, BUT HE'S LIKE JUST ALL ABOUT KILLING, MAN! HE'S JUST THIS PSYCHO KILLER! THAT SHIT IS SO FUCKING HARDCORE! BUT, LIKE, YOU CAN ONLY DO HIM IN AN R-RATED MOVIE THOUGH. YEAH, THE NEXT SPIDER-MAN MOVIE SHOULD BE TOTALLY R-RATED, WHICH WON'T BE A JARRING TONAL SHIFT AT ALL. BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I'M GOING TO GO GET THIS CARNAGE DECAL ON MY SKATEBOARD."
Fuck Carnage.
They needed something more evil as Venom since they where trying to make Venom to Spawn.
Regarding the whole Symbiotedysaster, this is a great read: http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/DarkSideoftheSpider/DarkSideoftheSpider.html
Good idea or not
(you're probably right I hadn't thought about ratings)
JimiNutz
Banned
I like this idea too.
Have Norman Osborn in the background of the first two films, setting him up as a villain and showing that he is willing to go to any lengths to achieve his aims.
The have Goblin just show up. Based on past behaviour audience assumes it's Norman but maybe it can be Harry or someone else entirely.
BudokaiMR2
Member
I forget, did they already do the 'spidey lifting a building with no leverage at all to work with' in Spider-Man 2? It's been a while since I saw that one unfortunately but I think I remember something like that.
Definitely one of my favorite Spider-Man moments.
Definitely one of my favorite Spider-Man moments.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It's incredible that this is the storyline they came up with to bring back Gwen Stacey.
And I say that as someone who liked that storyline.
Again: This wasnt the idea of the writer. The idea was that the twins were Peters kids but the Editorial changed it in another case of #OsbornIsBehindItAll
So what's the story behind this, I'm not really a comic reader so I'm not familiar with it.
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