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[Karsticles]

All up on VGBootCamp https://www.youtube.com/user/VideoGameBootCamp/videos

Any good Mewtwo action? :/

No?

*crawls into a hole*

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Sakurai could open his mouth to say he enjoys bananas and there would be a thousand people immediately responding that they hate bananas and always have.

 

[Hatchtag]

I'm almost sure that the reason ProejctM is still alive its because Sakurai. Nintendo does not fuck around with C&D. Just look at the Mario project someone was making.

On the flip side of that, look at the Mother 3 Fan Translation not getting shut down. I think they have a good feel for when a project has already gathered too much of a fan following that shutting it down would do more bad than good.

Sakurai could open his mouth to say he enjoys bananas and there would be a thousand people immediately responding that they hate bananas and always have.

"i love bananas"

I beg to differ.

 

[PKrockin]

Sakurai could open his mouth to say he enjoys bananas and there would be a thousand people immediately responding that they hate bananas and always have.

"If you really liked bananas you would add another DK rep you whore"

 

[mStudios]

On the flip side of that, look at the Mother 3 Fan Translation not getting shut down. I think they have a good feel for when a project has already gathered too much of a fan following that shutting it down would do more bad than good.

Translation are just text, not modifications. But you're also right, since "Mother 4" is hapenning.

 

[Nanashrew]

Sakurai could open his mouth to say he enjoys bananas and there would be a thousand people immediately responding that they hate bananas and always have.

My love for DK grows stronger everyday!

 

[Anura]

I'd love it if Sakurai evolved the Melee formula instead of the brawl one. Sakurai knows what he's doing when making games... I just wish he wanted to make a faster more combo focused game. I love smash but Sakurai is pretty much dead set on not returning to what made melee so amazing to me... Meh, I guess I'd have to keep playing melee until Sakurai wants to try improving it.

Smash 4 is fun but it's very different than playing melee in so very many ways. And I just like how melee does things more before people jump on me for being a melee fan girl.

 

[AnkiRendan]

Thanks for the translation! I do think more people were talking about favouritism roster-wise rather than balance wise (although I can see why one would think with that with Brawl...ugh.)

I don't want to read the rest of this topic as I'm sure competitive players are probably going to get all offended when there is no reason to.

 

[Karsticles]

I'd love it if Sakurai evolved the Melee formula instead of the brawl one. Sakurai knows what he's doing when making games... I just wish he wanted to make a faster more combo focused game. I love smash but Sakurai is pretty much dead set on not returning to what made melee so amazing to me... Meh, I guess I'd have to keep playing melee until Sakurai wants to try improving it.

Smash 4 is fun but it's very different than playing melee in so very many ways. And I just like how melee does things more before people jump on me for being a melee fan girl.

I wish Sakurai would make a more combo-focused game like this one:

https://youtu.be/V7QSt7wpI8A

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

I wish Sakurai would make a more combo-focused game like this one:

https://youtu.be/V7QSt7wpI8A

Thats the problem.. people who like melee will always say melee is better people who prefer smash 4 like that better. Dont mean one is worst than the other. I do not understand people. Just because you arent as good in smash 4 as you are melee does it mean it sucks? No. Melee is still my favorite but I dont fuck with it anymore really, I prefer to play and learn smash 4 everyday more characters and different moves lots of stuff to learn and enjoy. Couple that with good online play.

 

[Boss Doggie]

first page was shitposting (with the usual suspects even) but it looks like this thread managed to clean itself on the way, that's good

honestly while I'm curious as to how a non-Sakurai Smash would look like, at the same time I'm worried if another person does it, as Kars said we wouldn't know it until we lose it. Yeah sure he isn't fond of making Warioland references, but I seriously doubt you'd get the same Mother love.

I think the problem is that people have their own vision on the game that looks pretty good as an idea yet somehow fumbles the more they are realized, and eventually when they come into fruition they look so wildly different, especially towards Smash-centric games.

Thats the problem.. people who like melee will always say melee is better people who prefer smash 4 like that better. Dont mean one is worst than the other. I do not understand people. Just because you arent as good in ]smash 4 as you are melee does it mean it sucks? No. Melee is still my favorite but I dont fuck with it anymore really, I prefer to play and learn smash 4 everyday more characters and different moves lots of stuff to learn and enjoy. Couple that with good online play.

this is the problem I have with the smash community in general

how come they can't be like the street fighter community that doesn't push aside other versions? You don't see Alpha players push their game towards people who like 3S, or how 3S don't shove their stuff at SF4 players

it's like it's very... hmm isolated isn't the term, homogenic?

 

[Spinluck]

I wish Sakurai would make a more combo-focused game like this one:

https://youtu.be/V7QSt7wpI8A

Please remove this before Sakurai-san becomes aware of it and takes all of Greninja's combos away.

Thank you.

 

[Dryk]

He's clearly criticizing the defensive low risk game style of some pro players, not criticizing the existence of competitive play.

Conversely I don't think people are interpreting that way. They pointing out that as the director, the playstyle that shakes out of the game is ultimately his responsibility. If he thinks that that playstyle is boring (which lots of comp players also do) then he should fix it (like people have been asking him to do for 7 years).

 

[Metal B]

Another Sakurai thread and another arrival of the armchair gamedesigners.
It's funny, how some people are clearly not up-to-date with the SSB4 Meta. Sakruai's comment can be interpret in different ways, but if he really is annoyed with an element, he now can change it afterwords. This time he listens and visits tournaments to get infos for patches. He clearly hates the the community!

Thats the problem.. people who like melee will always say melee is better people who prefer smash 4 like that better. Dont mean one is worst than the other. I do not understand people. Just because you arent as good in smash 4 as you are melee does it mean it sucks? No. Melee is still my favorite but I dont fuck with it anymore really, I prefer to play and learn smash 4 everyday more characters and different moves lots of stuff to learn and enjoy. Couple that with good online play.

Melee is worst in regard of the gamedesign (since it was rushed to release). It's just so bad, it crossed dimensions and became good again. The game is an strange accidence with unbalanced characters and wired glitches, that somehow create a very cooperative game. Smash 4 is the better designed game, since it achieves its goals. Many people don't like those goals, but you can't critic the quality of the game and talent behind it.

 

[IchigoSharingan]

I'd love it if Sakurai evolved the Melee formula instead of the brawl one. Sakurai knows what he's doing when making games... I just wish he wanted to make a faster more combo focused game. I love smash but Sakurai is pretty much dead set on not returning to what made melee so amazing to me... Meh, I guess I'd have to keep playing melee until Sakurai wants to try improving it.

Smash 4 is fun but it's very different than playing melee in so very many ways. And I just like how melee does things more before people jump on me for being a melee fan girl.

Fret not, you are doing god's work.

 

[FyreWulff]

Good read, but just gives me more reason to wish the franchise could move on to someone else's hands. The 1v1 comment still shows a complete disrespect for the community that dedicates years to his game and keeps it in the public's eye.

I'm pretty sure it's the Smash brand and consistent quality that keeps Smash popular.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Don't like defensive play? That's the game YOU made, man. It's your fault.

But hey, keep pretending Melee was too much.

 

[Metal B]

Don't like defensive play? That's the game YOU made, man. It's your fault.
But hey, keep pretending Melee was too much.

Or he knows more about the element of the games, because he designed it, and calls the champions out to explore more of the offensive potential.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

first page was shitposting (with the usual suspects even) but it looks like this thread managed to clean itself on the way, that's good

honestly while I'm curious as to how a non-Sakurai Smash would look like, at the same time I'm worried if another person does it, as Kars said we wouldn't know it until we lose it. Yeah sure he isn't fond of making Warioland references, but I seriously doubt you'd get the same Mother love.

I think the problem is that people have their own vision on the game that looks pretty good as an idea yet somehow fumbles the more they are realized, and eventually when they come into fruition they look so wildly different, especially towards Smash-centric games.


this is the problem I have with the smash community in general

how come they can't be like the street fighter community that doesn't push aside other versions? You don't see Alpha players push their game towards people who like 3S, or how 3S don't shove their stuff at SF4 players

it's like it's very... hmm isolated isn't the term, homogenic?

And you know whats funny I play all types of multiplayer competitive games and smahbros is the weirdest.. cod, madden, all that shit I guess the other ones get yearly releases but still

 

[Boss Doggie]

I mean, imagine if Alpha players suddenly get mad and mod Third Strike to remove parries and include missing fighters like Blanka, etc.?

 

[JediLink]

Remember PlayStation All-Stars.

I don't think Playstation All-Stars is a fair comparison because it's not someone else trying to make Smash, it's someone else trying to make like-Smash-but-not-Smash. It's a lot harder to go wrong when you have an established formula to stick to. Oh, and a budget.

 

[FullmetalPain]

Could definitely get a better online without all flat stages. Link is insane on FG.

 

[Moonlight]

Don't like defensive play? That's the game YOU made, man. It's your fault.

But hey, keep pretending Melee was too much.

I think it's very easy to argue that Melee was 'too much', to be honest. Especially in the current meta, it's an intimidating game to enter. However, I think Brawl (and consequently 4, despite major strides) was just way too much of a reaction to that. If a few key changes were made, I think the balance the game tried to strike between the two would be much more convincing.

Or he knows more about the element of the games, because he designed it, and calls the champions out to explore more of the offensive potential.

I think it's, uh, way more realistic to say that Sakurai doesn't have secret knowledge he won't share because of reasons that would magically make the game more aggressive at a high level of play, and say that as a casual observer, he noticed that the games were generally more patiently paced (and therefore slower) than another competitive game might be. He says, for instance, that players hardly ever used smash attacks, which makes sense at a high level - smash attacks are easily punished and anticipated. What he's saying is much less likely to be that there is secretly a method in the game to make smash attacks much safer to use, and more that at a lower skill level, players are more often going to throw out smash attacks and players are more often going to run into them because there's less understanding of the mechanics.

 

[Blizzard]

I just want patch notes so people don't have to grind and dig through the game every single time. ;_;

 

[PensivePen]

I mean, imagine if Alpha players suddenly get mad and mod Third Strike to remove parries and include missing fighters like Blanka, etc.?

I think it's not anger at all, people just want to play a more exciting game while still enjoying all the additional characters/stages/etc. I mean no one thinks people who mod games like Skyrim and New Vegas are angry about it. They're just trying to give themselves a better experience.

 

[Metal B]

I think it's, uh, way more realistic to say that Sakurai doesn't have secret knowledge he won't share because of reasons that would magically make the game more aggressive at a high level of play, and say that as a casual observer, he noticed that the games were generally more patiently paced (and therefore slower) than another competitive game might be. He says, for instance, that players hardly ever used smash attacks, which makes sense at a high level - smash attacks are easily punished and anticipated. What he's saying is much less likely to be that there is secretly a method in the game to make smash attacks much safer to use, and more that at a lower skill level, players are more often going to throw out smash attacks and players are more often going to run into them because there's less understanding of the mechanics.

I have to agree. Reading the whole text, it becomes much clearer, what he meant.

The text clearly shows, that Sakruai has a great understanding of game-balance and i unquestionable believe he could create a fanatic competitive game. If he ever finds interest in actually making one. But smash is more then a competitive game, it is a party game, where the competitive part is only one small element of it. He once said, if he wanted to make a competitive fighting-game, he would approach this game completely different then Smash. The crossover aspect of Smash actually holds the system back as a true competitive game. Even if another talented director would take over the series, Smash would be in a similar position (Nintendo never goes full out competitive. They make games for everybody).

It would be interesting to see Sakruai actually creating such a true competitive game. But i guess, he never want to.
Thinking about the possible inclusion of Ryu. It would be fun, if he designed the character in away to show, how a real competitive only Smash-game would look like.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I think it's not anger at all, people just want to play a more exciting game while still enjoying all the additional characters/stages/etc. I mean no one thinks people who mod games like Skyrim and New Vegas are angry about it. They're just trying to give themselves a better experience.

Anger is the wrong word. But you get my point. Like I said, you don't see the Street Fighter community's 3S players mod IV to have parries or remove Ultra because "comeback are for casuals" (which is funny, because one of the best technical fighting games out there, Samurai Shodown, has that mechanic). Instead they remained in their circles than cannibalizing the other.

Like apparently there's only one way to enjoy the game, and somehow I only see it in Smash community. Like I said, homogenized?

 

[Mendrox]

Palutena buff pls

 

[Tomohawk]

Melee is worst in regard of the gamedesign (since it was rushed to release). It's just so bad, it crossed dimensions and became good again. The game is an strange accidence with unbalanced characters and wired glitches, that somehow create a very cooperative game. Smash 4 is the better designed game, since it achieves its goals. Many people don't like those goals, but you can't critic the quality of the game and talent behind it.

I'm sorry but you can definitely criticize the quality of a product and its creator under those circumstances. Especially when he criticizes defensive play styles when he made the game that way. Also I disagree with your definition of bad game design. There's more to a game then glitches and bad balance.

 

[Spinluck]

Alright, I have to say.

No patch notes is bullshit lol.

The lengths that the community has to go through to find the changes is ridiculous lol.

Is this a Nintendo thing or Sakurai thing?

 

[Rentahamster]

It was actually well explained in Brawl times, you know? For people that don't have reflex of a tourney player, stuff happening in Melee may as well be a TAS at times. Combine that with online multiplayer without matchmaking and you have a problem. Honestly combining Melee with official online mode is already a problem, but still.

The later games were designed with that weaker player in mind.

As long as you have online multiplayer, good people are going to beat weak people most of the time regardless.

Thats not accurate, many people who dont post on the internet play smash everyday, they play non competitive rules and enjoy it immensely. The shitty thing would be to change the game to appease the loud few and ignore the rest.

Loved the article, I think hes dead on about everything he mentioned.

You say this as though implementing things that appeal to the "loud few" (which it's not) somehow ruins the game for "the rest" (it doesn't). Sakurai doesn't understand this concept of accessibility as a game designer either. It's too bad.

 

[tiebreaker]

I always thought of Smash bros as a fun party game. It's a fantastic chaos.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Could definitely get a better online without all flat stages. Link is insane on FG.

Yeah link is another annoying fuck to mess around with online throwing all these shits..if I could just get to the other side like the chicken I would tear that ass up.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Sakurai could open his mouth to say he enjoys bananas and there would be a thousand people immediately responding that they hate bananas and always have.

Or he knows more about the element of the games, because he designed it, and calls the champions out to explore more of the offensive potential.

lol

 

[Tomohawk]

Anger is the wrong word. But you get my point. Like I said, you don't see the Street Fighter community's 3S players mod IV to have parries or remove Ultra because "comeback are for casuals" (which is funny, because one of the best technical fighting games out there, Samurai Shodown, has that mechanic). Instead they remained in their circles than cannibalizing the other.

Like apparently there's only one way to enjoy the game, and somehow I only see it in Smash community. Like I said, homogenized?

I think your projecting your bias on what you think PM Dev teams intentions were(I'm assuming your talking about pm). They wanted to play a game like melee with bigger roster and more characters, so they made one. Are they elitist because they didn't like brawl and wanted to play something they liked? Its not like they said no one should play brawl anymore.

 

[Porcile]

I get Sakurai's mentality. I remember Hungrybox saying in the Smash documentary that when he plays Melee with his non-competitive friends, the game becomes boring for them because his skill level is to the point of absurdity. Smash was never intentionally designed to be like that and Sakurai has just stuck to his game design principles.

 

[Metal B]

I'm sorry but you can definitely criticize the quality of a product and its creator under those circumstances. Especially when he criticizes defensive play styles when he made the game that way. Also I disagree with your definition of bad game design. There's more to a game then glitches and bad balance.

If you fail in reaching the goals of your project, you failed at designing your game. Sakurai himself mention, that Melee was a failure for him. If it wasn't for the strong and already proved base from Smash 64 and lucky glitches, Melee would be on one level with Brawl or even worst. But i would be not a terrible worst, the games have much more qualities besides the gameplay.

But i take Sakurai 's failing to create the game of his vision, instead of following the ideas of a small audience. This is, what true art and authorship is.

lol

 

[Nanashrew]

I think your projecting your bias on what you think PM Dev teams intentions were(I'm assuming your talking about pm). They wanted to play a game like melee with bigger roster and more characters, so they made one. Are they elitist because they didn't like brawl and wanted to play something they liked? Its not like they said no one should play brawl anymore.

I think even if so, Boss Doggie is right on other aspects about the community and its in-fighting and cannibalism. Just yesterday I saw top Melee players angry over a possible rumor or something about EVO and smash 4. Whatever it was, they didn't like it and wanted Melee top priority. Rewind further back to APEX, Melee goers chanted for Melee during the grand finals of Smash 4 and didn't care who was playing or won.

Smash 4 players can be pretty bad at times too with saying dumb things like "get with the times" or "why can't melee players just move on" and some other nonsense.

That stuff has got to stop. It's dumb, it's stupid, it's selfish, it's petty, it's despicable, it lacks showmanship for your fellow players and community members, it creates and widens a gaps between the players and could even potentially prevent growth overall because no one will want to join such a community that just berates whoever plays what. it Is two games that play differently and can co-exist.

 

[Deleted member 74300]

So how about those counter moves huh Sakurai? Plan on doing anything about them?

 

[Tomohawk]

If you fail in reaching the goals of your project, you failed at designing your game. Sakurai himself mention, that Melee was a failure for him. If it wasn't for the strong and already proved base from Smash 64 and lucky glitches, Melee would be on one level with Brawl or even worst. But i would be not a terrible worst, the games have much more qualities besides the gameplay.

But i take Sakurai 's failing to create the game of his vision, instead of following the ideas of a small audience. This is, what true art and authorship is.

Do you have a source for Sakurai calling a melee a failure, I want to know what his reasoning was. Also what do you mean by lucky glitches, I assume you mean wave dashing and L-canceling, in which case Sakurai came out and said they were intentional. Also without these "lucky glitches" how would melee be on par with brawl. It didn't have tripping and had far better balance and less infinite's, which I assume under your criteria makes the game design worse. It seems to me you are just regurgitating age old talking points on melees mechanics without actually understanding how they work.
As for your second paragraph I'm afraid I don't understand.

 

[mStudios]

Do you have a source for Sakurai calling a melee a failure, I want to know what his reasoning was. Also what do you mean by lucky glitches, I assume you mean wave dashing and L-canceling, in which case Sakurai came out and said they were intentional. Also without these "lucky glitches" how would melee be on par with brawl. It didn't have tripping and had far better balance and less infinite's, which I assume under your criteria makes the game design worse. It seems to me you are just regurgitating age old talking points on melees mechanics without actually understanding how they work.
As for your second paragraph I'm afraid I don't understand.

Wave dashing was not intentional. He clearly stated his team found the xploit but left it there because it "was funny," or time or w/e the reason was. It was not a mechanic, Not even Iwata had time to fix it.

Emphasis where he said "It was noticed," Not implemented.

 

[Metal B]

Do you have a source for Sakurai calling a melee a failure, I want to know what his reasoning was. Also what do you mean by lucky glitches, I assume you mean wave dashing and L-canceling, in which case Sakurai came out and said they were intentional. Also without these "lucky glitches" how would melee be on par with brawl. It didn't have tripping and had far better balance and less infinite's, which I assume under your criteria makes the game design worse. It seems to me you are just regurgitating age old talking points on melees mechanics without actually understanding how they work.

Masahiro Sakurai Reflects on Super Smash Bros. Melee

It's been nine years -- jeez, already? -- since Super Smash Bros. Melee was released for the Nintendo GameCube. The multiplayer fighter wound up becoming the GC's #1 release, with over seven million copies sold worldwide, but as designer Masahiro Sakurai explained in his most recent column for Famitsu magazine, development wasn't exactly fun and games.

"On a personal level, Melee had an extremely grueling development cycle," Sakurai wrote. "Some of my other games did, too, but Melee sticks out far ahead of the pack in my mind. I worked on that game for 13 months straight, after all, without a single Sunday or holiday off that whole time. During parts of it, I was living a really destructive lifestyle -- I'd work for over 40 hours in a row, then go back home to sleep for four."

What drove Sakurai through all that work? "I seriously felt like a man on a mission," he said. "With the original [Nintendo 64] Smash Bros., there was no guarantee the game would be well-received at all -- I had my hands full just trying to make it into the completely new sort of fighting game I had in mind. With Melee, though, the previous game did well enough that Nintendo and the character designers knew what I wanted in advance. And I wanted a lot. It was the biggest project I had ever led up to that point -- the first game of mine on disc-based media, the first that used an orchestra for music, the first with 'real' polygon graphics. My staff was raring to go, and we plunged in full-tilt from the start. I pushed myself beyond any limit I could think of because I doubted I'd ever have this sheer amount of work in my hands ever again."

Looking back, nearly a decade on, Sakurai seems proud of Melee overall. "Melee is the sharpest game in the series," he wrote. "It's pretty speedy all around and asks a lot of your coordination skills. Fans of the first Smash Bros. got into it quickly, and it just felt really good to play."

However, he has one particularly deep regret: the game's accessibility level. "I had created Smash Bros. to be my response to how hardcore-exclusive the fighting game genre had become over the years," Sakurai said. "But why did I target it so squarely toward people well-versed in videogames, then? That's why I tried to aim for more of a happy medium with Brawl's play balance. There are three Smash Bros. games out now, but even if I ever had a chance at another one, I doubt we'll ever see one that's as geared toward hardcore gamers as Melee was. Melee fans who played deep into the game without any problems might have trouble understanding this, but Melee was just too difficult."

Accessibility has always been a watchword in Sakurai's design style, and there's little doubt he learned a lot from the Melee development experience. "If we want new people from this generation of gamers to come in," he concluded, "then we need it accessible, simple, and playable by anyone. You can't let yourself get preoccupied with nothing but gameplay and balance details. That's where the core of the Smash Bros. concept lies, not on doggedly keeping the game the way it was before."

~ http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

Properly "failure" was a bit exaggerated, but how Melee finally turned out to be was clearly not what he intended to create. And like mStudios already said, Wave-Dashing was a fun glitch for the team and nothing more at the time. The developers just didn't had the time to explore the consequences of it and many more glitches.

As for your second paragraph I'm afraid I don't understand.

Because of the wording or the english?
I meant, that Sakurai, like any good author or artist, should not exclusive follow the ideas of an audience (especially a small one) and instead follow his own vision. I want to play a Sakurai game and not a "i do it, because it want to be popular with a vocal minority"-game.

 

[Tomohawk]

I think even if so, Boss Doggie is right on other aspects about the community and its in-fighting and cannibalism. Just yesterday I saw top Melee players angry over a possible rumor or something about EVO and smash 4. Whatever it was, they didn't like it and wanted Melee top priority. Rewind further back to APEX, Melee goers chanted for Melee during the grand finals of Smash 4 and didn't care who was playing or won.

Smash 4 players can be pretty bad at times too with saying dumb things like "get with the times" or "why can't melee players just move on" and some other nonsense.

That stuff has got to stop. It's dumb, it's stupid, it's selfish, it's petty, it's despicable, it lacks showmanship for your fellow players and community members, it creates and widens a gaps between the players and could even potentially prevent growth overall because no one will want to join such a community that just berates whoever plays what. it Is two games that play differently and can co-exist.

Ok first paragraph, if you pay out your ass to go across country to come to event and cheering allowed I think booing is allowed as well. After running super late and being a slog even from most smash 4 players perspective, I don't consider chanting melee or booing some huge crime, except that it happened during the award ceremony which I find disrespectful. Also most of the evo comments are related to Mr.Wizard saying only one smash game will get the Sunday spot. Most of the top players either want the better game to get the spot or don't care is smash 4 gets the spot. I think smash 4 should get the spot, but I don't think saying the game with most viewers and entrants should get the spot makes people assholes. I'm not saying the melee scene is perfect or smash 4 and melee relations couldn't be better, but the melee scene doesn't have some deep seeded hatred for the smash 4 scene.

 

[Rentahamster]

Or he knows more about the element of the games, because he designed it, and calls the champions out to explore more of the offensive potential.

I highly doubt that. I've never seen a designer of a fighting game who was the best at his own game. The top players will always be better than the person who designed the game. Smash 4 is the same. Zero, False, Nairo, etc would all destroy Sakurai if they played, and even if Sakurai's hands weren't all messed up.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I think your projecting your bias on what you think PM Dev teams intentions were(I'm assuming your talking about pm). They wanted to play a game like melee with bigger roster and more characters, so they made one. Are they elitist because they didn't like brawl and wanted to play something they liked? Its not like they said no one should play brawl anymore.

Nah just an observation. It doesn't even have to be about PM, it's just that it's easier to make an example out of them. It is true that rather than containing their stuff in their games (i.e. keep Melee stuff in Melee) they seem to force the aspects of one game to the other, which is my point. Like again, if the fanbase were the same but in Street Fighter, you'd have them complain why parries exist as it removes keepaway game and that they should have based it from Alpha 3 and stuff like that, or you'd have people complain why Ultras exist and they should have made more than 2 Ultras and have varying meters like in Third Strike, etc.

It's great that 4 seems to be getting its own legs now, but time will tell if they will last.

 

[Tomohawk]

~ http://www.1up.com/news/masahiro-sakurai-reflects-super-smash

Properly "failure" was a bit exaggerated, but how Melee finally turned out to be was clearly not what he intended to create. And like mStudios already said, Wave-Dashing was a fun glitch for the team and nothing more at the time. The developers just didn't had the time to explore the consequences of it and many more glitches.


Because of the wording or the english?
I meant, that Sakurai, like any good author or artist, should not exclusive follow the ideas of an audience (especially a small one) and instead follow his own vision. I want to play a Sakurai game and not a "i do it, because it want to be popular with a vocal minority"-game.

Ok there's nothing wrong with following one's own vision, but he can still be criticized for being misguided in his attempt at fulfilling his goals or poor execution. For example Sakurai's regret stems from accessibility and believes brawl fixes these issues. I would argue tripping and poor game balance even with items makes brawl less accessible.
Obviously here Sakurai believes he achieved his but I can still criticize his execution and results.

 

[Metal B]

I highly doubt that. I've never seen a designer of a fighting game who was the best at his own game. The top players will always be better than the person who designed the game. Smash 4 is the same. Zero, False, Nairo, etc would all destroy Sakurai if they played, and even if Sakurai's hands weren't all messed up.

I already took back the statement, since i misinterpreted his words. So why do people still quoting it?

Better in playing isn't equal to knowledge of the game. Especially if it is a dexterity-based game. Sakurai will always or at least for a very long time know more about the game then anybody else in the world. He created it. This is like saying commentaries or experts in sport have no idea, what they are saying in comparison to an active sportsman.
Of course, there can be many elements, which only be possible to see through time and another perspective (sometimes even the artist doesn't know, why something worked, only just because "it felt right".).

Ok there's nothing wrong with following one's own vision, but he can still be criticized for being misguided in his attempt at fulfilling his goals or poor execution. For example Sakurai's regret stems from accessibility and believes brawl fixes these issues. I would argue tripping and poor game balance even with items makes brawl less accessible.
Obviously here Sakurai believes he achieved his but I can still criticize his execution and results.

Yes, you can. But again i take failing in following your vision over following the public believes. Only one of those is truly visionary. And if some believes there is greatness in another way, he should start making there own game and not pushing someone into a direction, he doesn't want to go and then complaining about it.

 

[JediLink]

If you fail in reaching the goals of your project, you failed at designing your game. Sakurai himself mention, that Melee was a failure for him. If it wasn't for the strong and already proved base from Smash 64 and lucky glitches, Melee would be on one level with Brawl or even worst. But i would be not a terrible worst, the games have much more qualities besides the gameplay.

Wave dashing was not intentional. He clearly stated his team found the xploit but left it there because it "was funny," or time or w/e the reason was. It was not a mechanic, Not even Iwata had time to fix it.

Emphasis where he said "It was noticed," Not implemented.

Either or both of you, could you please explain to me exactly 1) what wavedashing is, 2) how it works, 3) how to perform it and 4) what it's useful for? Without quoting a wiki of course. I'm sure that since you're invested in arguing this you have a solid understanding of the subject matter. Go on.

 

[Metal B]

Either or both of you, could you please explain to me exactly 1) what wavedashing is, 2) how it works, 3) how to perform it and 4) what it's useful for? Without quoting a wiki of course. I'm sure that since you're invested in arguing this you have a solid understanding of the subject matter. Go on.

Is this a test? Do we get graded after it from you? What makes you the expert into rating our competence in this subject matter?
I once owned the biggest SSBM Site in Germany, was wiring guidelines for it and managed a whole Smash community. I know a few things.

 

[Nanashrew]

Ok first paragraph, if you pay out your ass to go across country to come to event and cheering allowed I think booing is allowed as well. After running super late and being a slog even from most smash 4 players perspective, I don't consider chanting melee or booing some huge crime, except that it happened during the award ceremony which I find disrespectful. Also most of the evo comments are related to Mr.Wizard saying only one smash game will get the Sunday spot. Most of the top players either want the better game to get the spot or don't care is smash 4 gets the spot. I think smash 4 should get the spot, but I don't think saying the game with most viewers and entrants should get the spot makes people assholes. I'm not saying the melee scene is perfect or smash 4 and melee relations couldn't be better, but the melee scene doesn't have some deep seeded hatred for the smash 4 scene.

They don't have deep seeded hatred, you're right. But the fighting between the two can be so awful. Even here on GAF. It's always the same people that that start it. Any time I would look at Twitter, here or wherever else, it's always the same people starting something and you get the same arguments and mud flinging over, and over, and over. Even now it's the same mud flinging and arguments as the last Sakurai and Smash threads before it.

There are some problems that I think a lot just don't want to admit and move on.

Anyway, I need to get some sleep. It's almost 5am here and I'm running on empty.