Masahiro Sakurai: The Act of Balancing Smash
- Thread starter Masked Man
- Start date
DrROBschiz
Member
The precision in Smash 4 does have its own benefits though
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
to be fair, big/slow characters have disadvantage with that
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'm trying to figure out what an EAD made roster would look like and every thought I have makes the roster full of redundant characters while cutting long time vets and fan favorites.
Basing this off Mario Kart mostly. They have a nasty habit of burning all the new comers of the previous game except one or two (sometimes it appears entirely arbitrarily) and start with a fresh batch of new racers every game.
EAD shipped a Mario Kart that didn't have Waluigi. That's the EAD you want making Smash Bros and deciding the roster of the game, the people who cut a fan favorite and spin off king of Mario games. So they could add Metal Mario and the bee lady who was in two levels in Galaxy. Instead of Wa-freakin-luigi.
Basing this off Mario Kart mostly. They have a nasty habit of burning all the new comers of the previous game except one or two (sometimes it appears entirely arbitrarily) and start with a fresh batch of new racers every game.
EAD shipped a Mario Kart that didn't have Waluigi. That's the EAD you want making Smash Bros and deciding the roster of the game, the people who cut a fan favorite and spin off king of Mario games. So they could add Metal Mario and the bee lady who was in two levels in Galaxy. Instead of Wa-freakin-luigi.
Comfort Jones
Banned
What am I reading?
Since when do you see good players roll 3 times in a row? What does this fix?
Edit-FFS even if someone DID do that, it's away from you, so the loss of i frames on that third roll means nothing. Your fix is not "easy", it's completely missing the point.
No "dude", it is just asshole behaver to try to randomly call out people, by trying to get them into saying something wrong (even if it is a little detail), so you can call build a case around it. You pretty much poised the whole discussion! What about having some respect to people you don't know, who want a nice conversation and didn't attack anybody in the first place.
You still have different tiers of speed, which can have very different effects of moves, attributes and other variables. Building up speed, stay on top-speed and the play about speed becomes such a important factor, that other attributes become less crucial. Melee isn't a balanced game and momentum conservation plays an important part in it. It also makes the game much harder to control and harder for new players.
Project M dances around the problem by have more characters get more use out of speed. Which on the other hand simply converts more character in Rush-Down archetypes and makes the line-up less diverse.
A lot of people have fun with those attributes and there aren't bad. Don't get me wrong. But it fits a more hardcore audience, which love the details, and a smaller roster on characters, since it is easier to balance and you can't have many diverse concepts, before it gets overwhelming.
Through my observation, Smash 4 tries to give attributes other then speed more influence. Rage for example is a mechanic, which befits heaver characters, since they life longer to get full use out of it. I don't think it is perfect, Rush-Down characters still are slightly better characters in comparative play, but some tweaking could help balance them out.
Hahahah, I love how back in 2001, people were up in arms about this ridiculous new character. Now, we get upset if he ISN'T included. Waluigi, Number One.
DrROBschiz
Member
After reading the article again
Sakurai comes off as very hands on and reasonable
Maybe he doesnt hate the competitive scene as much as I think he does
Hes not in love with the tournaments he has witnessed apparently. Which is weird since I have seen some insane matches go down in Smash 4 and they are generally quick and fun to watch...
Sakurai comes off as very hands on and reasonable
Maybe he doesnt hate the competitive scene as much as I think he does
Hes not in love with the tournaments he has witnessed apparently. Which is weird since I have seen some insane matches go down in Smash 4 and they are generally quick and fun to watch...
footstool combos that are inescapale after the first hit are not good in my book. I've seen some disgusting footstool falcon combos on the smash reddit...
It's not difficult to see why someone would prefer the combos that the melee engine allows. I mean, smash 4 footstool combos are a lot more "static". Also, you can try to DI out of melee combos.
DrROBschiz
Member
I see a lot more footstools used for gimping and offstage play honestly... and I think thats fitting since onstage footstoll resets are really tough to pull off in the heat of a match.
It does happen but for me its always on accident. At least offstage its easier to setup
I don't think that footstool on stage combos will be a problem because, once they start being something more common, nintendo will probably patch them. I mean, if we suddenly start seeing falcon dittos with 0 to dead combos... nintendo would notice xD
balladofwindfishes
Member
Sadly, I could easily see EAD cutting characters like Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, ROB and Palutena and replacing them with lighter or heavier versions of already existing characters because they have a different sort of approach to selecting rosters. They seem to like having a light version, medium version and heavy version of characters for some reason, instead of a more diverse roster.
This is a more recent EAD development, but EAD hasn't really ever been that good at rosters. Some older Mario Karts felt entirely arbitrary with who they chucked into them, and now they just kind of seem like they gave up on MK Rosters being anything other than clones. Even the DLC was clone after clone. EAD just straight makes up characters so they can have clones, and that didn't even start with MK8.
DrROBschiz
Member
Looks hard to setup on a moving opponent
I guess once you actually get the footstool. you could pull off the follow up but is it even guaranteed?
Can you Tech a footstool?
Comfort Jones
Banned
No.
Only reason you don't see more players do it is because they don't practice it. Zero has even flat out said by and large the level of competition for Smash 4 is not good and that's a pretty grand example of it.
Like many have already said, no one is bemoaning Pit or Palutena being overpowered. They are bemoaning the fact that there is an overabundance of Kid Icarus representation. I can understand why he would want to put in a lot of KI stuff since he revived the franchise... but DARK PIT?
I kind of think Sakurai's dislike of competitive Smash is a bit amusing, though insulting towards the gamers who are really dedicated to that scene. He's basically saying, "Look nerds, just pick whoever you want and spam Smash attacks. ITEMS ON. ALL CHARACTERS. GREAT CAVE OFFENSIVE."
I kind of think Sakurai's dislike of competitive Smash is a bit amusing, though insulting towards the gamers who are really dedicated to that scene. He's basically saying, "Look nerds, just pick whoever you want and spam Smash attacks. ITEMS ON. ALL CHARACTERS. GREAT CAVE OFFENSIVE."
DrROBschiz
Member
All the footstools I have scored have mostly been accidents lol. I could see it being a gamechanger though
Seems difficult to master
balladofwindfishes
Member
That's not at all what he was saying. My take is he wants players to use Smash attacks more because they're playing the game too defensively with low risks, while Smash attacks are high risk, high reward.
Also Dark Pit is barely even a character. He probably added him during his lunch break. Dark Pit is the least changed clone in the entire game.
Slime Scholar
Member
To be fair, Dark Pit was originally an alternate skin for Pit in Brawl. Then he became his own character in Uprising. Making him an alt skin again (what he started out as in Smash 4, IIRC) wouldn't have been totally appropriate, given the fact that he has his own voice and weapon (which only made it into his Final Smash).
Palutena also made sense as an inclusion since she's been around since the first game, where she's actually in the Japanese title. (Myth of Light: The Mirror of Palutena)
DrROBschiz
Member
yeah Dark Pit is probably one of the worst additions ever lol
Palutena is legitimately awesome though
Comfort Jones
Banned
"Everyone"? Everyone?
Really?
God no. Smash has basically been dead to me,and not because Brawl and Smash 4 aren't Melee 2, I just think the new games are poorly designed. FFS apparently even he thinks it's boring to watch when he says shit like:
"Recently, there was a tournament featuring the top Japanese and American players. In 1v1s, the natural tendency is to use low risk moves to gradually deal damage to the opponent. Smash attacks rarely came out, and the matches were prone to becoming long, drawn out affairs. When considering the variety of ways Smash can be played I think this is a waste, but the winner was certainly decided by skill."
!!
o_0 why would someone said this!?
I think that people tend to forget that, before being a competitive game, melee is a casual game. A casual game that works beatifully and is really fun to play. I've always defended that, even at a casual level, melee does a better job at emphasizing smash bros stongest points.
o_0 why would someone said this!?
I think that people tend to forget that, before being a competitive game, melee is a casual game. A casual game that works beatifully and is really fun to play. I've always defended that, even at a casual level, melee does a better job at emphasizing smash bros stongest points.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I don't understand how Dark Pit can be "one of the worst additions" when he barely took any effort to add and doesn't do anything negative to the game at all besides add two more runs through single player and one more trophy to buy from the shop. Which for some people, is actually a positive addition.
Jawmuncher
Member
Something something *insert remark about snake being balances and how he should come back* something something.
DrROBschiz
Member
well, if smash attacks killed sooner...
NeonZ
Member
I think the idea they have is that big characters like Mario or Peach, who are very well known to multiple players, should have multiple gameplay variations to satisfy players who want to play with those characters, but don't like their default styles, rather than focusing on minor characters who aren't as well known. So, you get a light Mario (Baby Mario), standard Mario and a heavy Mario (Metal Mario).
Even their selection of guests shows that design intent pretty clearly. They only included Link and Villager in Mario Kart, which are Nintendo's biggest "character" franchises outside of Mario (Pokemon should be there, but it has its own issues with brand control, which is why it doesn't even have Amiibo costumes).
He still could have tweaked Lucina's and Dark Pit's stats more, like the meele clones... If there were balance problems due to their last minute nature, going from costumes to characters, patches could have fixed that.
No problem, I'll just continue to short hop air dodge with Samus and go for back airs
Vital Tundra
Member
Alph is an alt of Olimar instead of an actual character even though he uses Pikmin types Olimar never even used. Sakurai breaks his rules left and right and Dark Pit should not have been a character.
On another note I believe, whether you care about competitive or not, Sakurai is not the right person for this game anymore. Melee, while competitive, was also a casual party game, still is, and is probably the best at showing that. From Brawl to 4 the stage hazards have become more abundant, and more lethal. Pokeballs have more lethal Pokemon, and items have more killing potential in general. The point of Smash is to have a funny, good old time, but what he has added to the franchise since Melee has gotten away from that. Brawl had tripping, and 4 removed it but further simplified the game. Casual players aren't stupid, Melee was built fine.
Back to the items it makes no since that you can turn off items, change what type of match you want it to be, change sooooo many things in the options yet you can't disable hazards. What kind of shit is that? Its off during All-Star Mode, why is that? So the player doesn't feel cheated.
I love Sakurai, and thats just one of the problems I have with 4 and his design philosophy since Melee. There was a clear, beautiful path after Melee came out, and Sakurai squandered it. Just like so many other developers at Nintendo, they want to make the game THEY want to play, and not what other people might like. It happened here, and it happened with Splatoon. I love that game, but no voice chat and online options being bare minimum were a selfish mistake of the developers. Smash 4 is great, but Smash could be so much more. On a casual level, on a competitive level, and on a content level.
balladofwindfishes
Member
It's not that Dark Pit shouldn't have been a character because Alph isn't, it's that Alph should have been a character.
Dark Pit was the last character added to the game. They may not have had time to change him all that much.
Dark Pit was the last character added to the game. They may not have had time to change him all that much.
direct_quote
Member
When I play samus I am reminded how much I roll and that I probably shouldn't roll so much.No problem, I'll just continue to short hop air dodge with Samus and go for back airs
Vital Tundra
Member
Yeah, your right about DP. I just hate that Sakurai himself said Alph is an alt costume because he is identical to Olimar. Its like he didn't even care to do research, or would rather have took the time to make Dark Pit a separate character over him.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
PushDustIn
Member
The major issue is that in order to tweak Alph to be a separate character, you might need to rework the Pikmin. Reworking the Pikmin for one character could potentially create confusion among some players. "What, is it Alph's Red Pikmin that does 4% damage? or is that Olimar's Red Pikmin?" The best way to differentiate Alph/Olimar would be to give them different Pikmin. However, then it's less of a clone and more of a new character.
Vital Tundra
Member
I would take a Melee level clone Alph over a Smash 4 clone Lucina and Dark Pit. Give Olimar a Louie alt to boot, like he should have had.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Remove whites and purples and add rocks. Make him lighter, but faster. Other than that, his Pikmin numbers remain unchanged to help confusion. Rocks wouldn't latch on, but would do heavy shield damage. Kind of like purples but they do less overall damage and knockback, but more shield damage. Change his entrance animation and final smash to use the Drake.
Giving him different Pikmin, in this case rocks, isn't really making him all that different. Especially since rocks would themselves just be modified purple clones.
I think Alph unfortunately got the short end of the stick due to time constraints. Maybe if they had a few more weeks, we would have had Alph as his own slot. He's really out of place as he is right now, being the only alt costume that could be a clone, that isn't one.
DrROBschiz
Member
Yeah me too honestly
That said most of My smash 4 complaints are pretty tiny in the grand scheme of things
I am still overwhelmingly happy with how it turned out
I get that Sakurai balances in favour of a more casual play style, it's a situation like Lucina makes sense. Some people are gonna have a hard time with Marth and the easier play style of Lucina will feel more rewarding even if she's a flat out worse character.
There's still tweaks that would make EVERYBODY happy. ffs, Shiek is both the best rushdown character and has the best projectile in the game which can outcamp other projectile users. Fuck that shit.
Short hop air dodge has less vulnerable frames, control your momentum and spacing better and you can get a nair, up air, back air, cancel it into a zair at any time (it will give you some end lag unless you do it right way because it extends the air dodge time if you do it like that instead of z) or any special (even a b reverse charge shot) before hitting the ground.
It's a great option!
There's still tweaks that would make EVERYBODY happy. ffs, Shiek is both the best rushdown character and has the best projectile in the game which can outcamp other projectile users. Fuck that shit.
Never ever ever ever ever ever ever roll.
Short hop air dodge has less vulnerable frames, control your momentum and spacing better and you can get a nair, up air, back air, cancel it into a zair at any time (it will give you some end lag unless you do it right way because it extends the air dodge time if you do it like that instead of z) or any special (even a b reverse charge shot) before hitting the ground.
It's a great option!
DecoReturns
Member
In the subject of Dark pit. If I were the creator of smash I honestly would likely put in a few of my personal favorite characters. I mean Sakurai works hard for his Smash games, if you wants Dark Pit more power to him besides without him we wouldn't have Smash.
Honestly I feel we would all have a little bias towards the characters if we were the creator.
Honestly I feel we would all have a little bias towards the characters if we were the creator.
i would totally put Hector and Paper Mario in.
I think Smash 4 does a great job of making everyone feel different.
Much more variety and balance imo.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
We? Nope, I wouldn't.
shaowebb
Member
How about stage balancing and item balancing? I'd love playing Sm4sh more if I didn't have to play the exact same layout in omega mode or nothing. FAR too many stages have instant kill hazards on their stages. From the bird in the Earthbound stage on the 3ds to the new Pokemon stadium to Yellow Devil and Ridley...these are all fantastic stage layouts I'd like to play on but I can't enjoyably because of the damned hazards! Plus how many items are as good as a smash ball these days? Most of the Pokemon ones, the Galaga ship, the beetle, that laser cannon from Kid Icarus, the Dragoon...it just goes on and on.
You want to balance Smash for me? Then allow those just chillin' casually to play each other without having to play the exact same layout of stage. Either tone down the crazy damage and durability of hazards/weapons or let us turn off hazards and selectively choose what pokeballs we want to ban from our own play.
You want to balance Smash for me? Then allow those just chillin' casually to play each other without having to play the exact same layout of stage. Either tone down the crazy damage and durability of hazards/weapons or let us turn off hazards and selectively choose what pokeballs we want to ban from our own play.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
RE: Pitoo, Lucina and Dr. Mario
I think people are more wanting consistency. Like they'd probably wouldn't mind them being skins, to which I agree.
I think people are more wanting consistency. Like they'd probably wouldn't mind them being skins, to which I agree.
DrROBschiz
Member
I agree 100%
And people are finding cool stuff in Smash 4 every day. Its an exciting game
Hell I feel like I have relearned how to play my main several times since it came out.
There is far more depth than people give this game credit for
balladofwindfishes
Member
People would have cared if Doc was a skin.
They were already ridiculing it when he was leaked, saying he'd use a medicine Fluud. If he was a skin, he'd have to use a medicine Fluud and it would look goofy.
The major reason Doc isn't a skin is because they thought it would be unpopular to make a vet be "downgraded" into a simple skin. The reason he's even a character in Smash 4 at all is because people would care if he was a skin.
I notice is everywhere. When Smash 4 clones are ridiculed, they almost always conveniently ignore mentioning Doc in their ridicule. It's always "Lucina and Dark Pit are wastes of space and should have been skins"
Lights and Waves
Member
This. Dr. Mario, ok, he's far enough from a clone that it's not the end of the world if he gets his own slot. But there is literally no excuse that Lucina and Pitoo couldn't have just been costumes instead.
Hell, they'd be perfect as costumes to launch the Smash Bros. DLC. If he wanted to include them, at least do something to make them unique. All it takes is changing to of the B moves. All the custom moves that Pit and Marth have, and Sakurai didn't think to make some of them the defaults for Lucina and Pitoo?
balladofwindfishes
Member
Dark Pit's neutral and side specials are actually Melee clone tier of changes.
What really makes Dark Pit more of a clone than the Melee crew are all the other changes he didn't get. Other than his one bugged tilt, every other aspect of him is cloned right from Pit.
What would have helped was adjusting his run speed, jump height, damage, knockback. Anything. With unique attributes on his none-specials and some variety at all, Dark Pit would have been a Melee style clone and probably liked a bit more. His specials certainly are more Melee clone focused than his entire design lets on.
Look at Doc. Slower run speed, different jump height, more powerful attacks. Some of the attacks are different in raw attributes (like his forward Smash and forward air). His down air is unique. His down special is unique, his neutral special is fairly unique. His up and side specials have different attributes and effects.
Common aspects Melee clones had
- Unique idle animations. The majority of clones had this. Dark Pit and Lucina do not, even if Marth's animations look silly on Lucina because of her smaller cape. They knew these animations look silly when not on Marth, because Roy has unique idles.
- One very specific unique gimmick. Falco can jump high, Young Link is faster and lighter, Pichu hurts himself. Lucina has this, Dark Pit does not.
- One specific special that is drastically different. Falco's lasers. Doc's pills. Roy's explosion. Young Link's arrows. Ganondorf's punch. Pichu's Agility. Dark Pit has this, Lucina does not.
- Various unique attributes on moves with the same animations. Young Link's forward smash for example. Doc's forward air. Neither Lucina or Dark Pit have this.
- A few entirely new moves when needed. Ganondorf's forward air. Pichu's up smash. Could Ganon had used knee? Yes, his knee even has spikes on it. Could Pichu use Pikachu's up smash? Yes, he has a tail, it works. But they don't. They have their own unique moves. Lucina and Dark Pit do not have these.
Which is glaringly obvious the difference in clones when you compare Doc to Dark Pit/Lucina. Doc was (obviously) made with a Melee clone style. And it really shows, making this weird divide between uniqueness of Doc versus Lucina and Dark Pit.