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[norm9]

I don't think a class you have to take about assault being bad is going to be effective. Opening the floodgates for refugees might not be the greatest idea in hindsight considering there was no screening process. Or if there was a screening process, it wasn't very good.

 

[SolidusDave]

I don't know, seems pretty weird to me if it really turns out to be refugees.

I can't imagine fleeing from war and terror only to start sexually assaulting people in the country that has graciously agreed to take me in.

Makes no sense to me if it really turns out to be refugees.

Not all refugees originate from warzones. A lot are economic refugees and while they are 99% likely to be deported, they are staying here for x amount of time until their request was officially denied (years?).

What's a bit weird is that currently witness reports point towards North-African-looking people with a migration background (I assume that means they didn't speak German?). Germany didn't get many refugees from countries like Tunisia AFAIK so why would they have such a big criminal presence?


Some other things not mentioned in the OP:

- Police thinks this incident might have been planned by these criminals and that they traveled from afar and felt anonymous/safe within the crowd.

- Most filed charges (90+ so far) of that incident are for theft. The sexual assault was seemingly a disturbing trick to get close to the victim and check for phones etc. (this is in general known as "antanzen"). Although we know of one case of rape.

 

[Mrmartel]

Why is this a left wing, right wing issue for you? Not everything has to be filtered through this stupid us versus them prism. I really don't curse on this forum. I'm sarcastic very often -- more than I should be -- and sometimes sardonic, but that's about as far as it goes for me.

However, it's fucking not "understandable" that dozens if not hundreds of people committed sexual assault on anyone, let alone innocent victims with minimal protection. It doesn't matter how poor you are. It's something that has to be prevented. Does that mean that refugees are bad? Does it mean that arabs are lesser? Does it mean mass deportation? No. But measures can and should be taken, whether it's something simple like increased security, or if the assailants really are refugees (has this been confirmed?) then maybe a stricter education procedure for entrance into the country. It's worth whatever money that can cost.

Can we just discuss this like adults without stupid Trump references and pre-emptive claims of political bias? Disgusting.

I would agree that the lines between left/right wing are becoming more irrelevant in Europe with the current migrant issue. Everyone (other than politicians and the elites) seems to be equally worried, shocked and angry, especially after situations like this.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I would agree that the lines between left/right wing are becoming more irrelevant in Europe with the current migrant issue. Everyone (other than politicians and the elites) seems to be equally worried, shocked and angry, especially after situations like this.

Yes the real problem is that people are seeing all traditional politicians as a neoliberal political elite who are corrupt and only work for the super rich. In terms of established grass roots political groups who claim to provide a credible alternative there is only the far right. There are old socialists who seem nicer but they seem to be so well contained and controlled by the establishment that nobody believes in them. And for years nobody smart who wanted a political future seriously went down the path of real socialism.

 

[Mrmartel]

Yes the real problem is that people are seeing all traditional politicians as a neoliberal political elite who are corrupt and only work for the super rich. In terms of established grass roots political groups who claim to provide a credible alternative there is only the far right. There are old socialists who seem nicer but they seem to be so well contained and controlled by the establishment that nobody believes in them. And for years nobody smart who wanted a political future seriously went down the path of real socialism.

Yup. The far right seems to be a quasi mix between left and right. Hard right on immigration, centerish on social issues (gay marriage, women issues etc) and left economically.

The national front getting huge numbers in former socialists (at their expense) regional strong holds like Nord-Pas-de-Calais-Picardie and Provence-Alpes-Côte-d’Azur proves this. I would not be the least surprised to see similar results in most upcoming European elections.

The former ethnic European socialist voter has been lost for decades by any party labeled with socialist or old school socialism connections.

 

[El Topo]

Definitely strange it took a week for this to hit the papers.

It didn't take a week. You'll find mention of these events, based on what was known at the time on the sites of big German newspapers (e.g. SZ) as early as 1/2/16 (though I cannot say how much coverage there has been in the actual printed newspaper). It is clear from the press releases by the police though that the gravity of the events was not known at the time. As more information has become available, newspapers have diverted more and more attention to coverage of the events.

 

[Madness]

I don't know, seems pretty weird to me if it really turns out to be refugees.

I can't imagine fleeing from war and terror only to start sexually assaulting people in the country that has graciously agreed to take me in.

Makes no sense to me if it really turns out to be refugees.

What do you mean? Just because they're 'refugees' means what? That they can't possibly commit crime? What kind or justification is that? If anything, this is a consequence of the mass unchecked migration of these people.

There is a reason they picked Germany and France over the myriad of other European countries where they would be safe from war or destruction. Those who have plans to go back, actually live back in Syria are those refugees in Kuwait, Jordan and Turkey.

Saying you can't understand why they'd commit crime or do other stuff. Most of the migrants are uneducated, they don't speak the local language, they don't understand the laws and customs of the country. They weren't checked, verified, or had to pass competency tests like immigrants have to do when they apply to enter a country.

This is not to say all the refugees or migrants are bad, we don't even have confirmation who the people were. There has been hundreds of thousands of migrants entering Germany, you're bound to get many people who you wouldn't consider 'good', considering they just came from Syria which was one of the world's most repressive countries with a high crime rate and low respect for human/women's rights.

Just wait till low economic prospects, coupled with the high number create ethnic slums and areas where poverty, crime will inevitably be high. This is true almost every time there is huge migration.

 

[Mrmartel]

It didn't take a week. You'll find mention of these events, based on what was known at the time on the sites of big German newspapers (e.g. SZ) as early as 1/2/16 (though I cannot say how much coverage there has been in the actual printed newspaper). It is clear from the press releases by the police though that the gravity of the events was not known at the time. As more information has become available, newspapers have diverted more and more attention to coverage of the events.

Its exploding now. NYT, the guardian, Der Speigal etc. Most major outlets have gotten stories out in the last couple hours. Apparently a smaller scale version occurred in Hamburg as well. Also they are saying it wasn't strictly migrants but men of Arab origins that have been in the country for an unknown amount of time (German citizens? Second Generation immigrants?). Although I think it's even worse news if it's men who should of been integrated already over the years of growing up in Germany.

 

[tbd]

Seems like even many underage girls were assaulted or actually raped. This is so fucked up.

 

[Espada]

What? Do you think germans would dare to confine people in mass shelters... Oh wait..

Sorry but that logic is flawed. A few men have misbehaved and should pay for their crimes. However there were hundreds of thousands of refugees that entered germany last year. Di you really think that the crime of a few should he projected on all those people that came?

Of course that logic is flawed, but that's exactly what I meant. Crap like this is going to be used by right wingers in Europe to fuel their xenophobic fire.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Pretty despicable and can't see it changing any time soon even if they do imprison/deport the perpetrators it's just going to piss other people off. Going to be a very vicious cycle. It's way too many people.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Pretty despicable and can't see it changing any time soon even if they do imprison/deport the perpetrators it's just going to piss other people off. Going to be a very vicious cycle. It's way too many people.

Who is it going to piss off if they throw the book at men who are assaulting under age girls in public?

 

[Carl2291]

It was bound to happen. It just happened sooner than I expected.

Sickening.

 

[Caayn]

Pretty despicable and can't see it changing any time soon even if they do imprison/deport the perpetrators it's just going to piss other people off. Going to be a very vicious cycle. It's way too many people.

If it are indeed refugees. This is what they should with migrants.

First time can be a mistake. (Different culture, rules, etc). - Punishment by law
Second time is no accident. - Deported from the country.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If it are indeed refugees. This is what they should with migrants.

First time can be a mistake. (Different culture, rules, etc). - Punishment by law
Second time is no accident. - Deported from the country.

The different culture excuse or reason for crime is so strange to me. Assault and theft are just as punishable in other countries as here. I don't see how things like that can be labeled as mistakes.

 

[justjohn]

The different culture excuse or reason for crime is so strange to me. Assault and theft are just as punishable in other countries as here. I don't see how things like that can be labeled as mistakes.

I don't even know any country where it's acceptable to go around groping women.

 

[Drencrom]

It's not really shocking that people/men from countries and cultures with awful views on women that migrate to western countries might have awful views on women.

 

[Jharp]

Holy shit the amount of people tacitly defending this as not being all that big a deal because "well, different cultures" is insane. How fucking far gone do you need to be to actually believe that shit?

 

[diffusionx]

I've seen this sort of mob behavior before, most notably when Lara Logan was raped in Tahrir Square. It was the exact same thing.

From what I've read this is not uncommon in these countries. Apparently Germany has decided to import this lawlessness to their own country. It's too bad for the women who live there. Germany has failed its citizens.

 

[Caayn]

The different culture excuse or reason for crime is so strange to me. Assault and theft are just as punishable in other countries as here. I don't see how things like that can be labeled as mistakes.

I'm talking more in general Just pointed out that I think that countries should be allowed to easier deport refugees/asylum seekers* if they cause trouble. *including people who life there for fewer than x number of years.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I do not agree nor do I sympathize with the people who took part in this act.

 

[Pomerlaw]

Holy shit the amount of people tacitly defending this as not being all that big a deal because "well, different cultures" is insane. How fucking far gone do you need to be to actually believe that shit?

Racist!

*sarcasm*

It is better to control and limit immigration, or it will end up badly both for local people and immigrants.

 

[Fritz]

Holy shit the amount of people tacitly defending this as not being all that big a deal because "well, different cultures" is insane. How fucking far gone do you need to be to actually believe that shit?

Who does that? That IS insane.

 

[dave is ok]

Who does that? That IS insane.

Less than ten posts above yours.

If it are indeed refugees. This is what they should with migrants.

First time can be a mistake. (Different culture, rules, etc). - Punishment by law
Second time is no accident. - Deported from the country.

 

[quackamole]

Problem is that you can't deport someone back to their country if you don't know where they are from, or if their country of origin is unsafe. So the best you can do is lock them up for a while, and you can't lock them up for life.

Sorry EuroGAF, shit like this will probably get worse and more common in the coming years. Better figure out ways to protect yourself and your families.

 

[diffusionx]

Problem is that you can't deport someone back to their country if you don't know where they are from, or if their country of origin is unsafe. So the best you can do is lock them up for a while, and you can't lock them up for life.

Sorry EuroGAF, shit like this will probably get worse and more common in the coming years. Better figure out ways to protect yourself and your families.

Right. Legally, I don't think you can deport someone if they are admitted as a refugee. You can't send people back to Syria after they escaped a war zone.

The best you can do is lock them up, hopefully it doesn't become Radicalization U like it has become in UK prisons.

 

[RatchetWhiteGirls]

Holy shit the amount of people tacitly defending this as not being all that big a deal because "well, different cultures" is insane. How fucking far gone do you need to be to actually believe that shit?

Right? This thread is bizarre! Seeing a lot of questionable responses in here. From, 'lets wait and see if it was actually "brown" people', to 'great this will fuel the right wingers hate for "brown" people. If this was a news story about 1000 frat guys assaulting a bunch of college and high school girls at a party this thread would be 50 pages long with people calling for all white males to be severely punished and publicly shamed.

 

[Lilith]

Well people from the right are calling for mass concentration camps for refugees already.. Germany is gojng straight back to the 1930s these days.

Aaand...here we go.

 

[MotionBlue]

No. But measures can and should be taken, whether it's something simple like increased security, or if the assailants really are refugees (has this been confirmed?)

It has been confirmed by police involved. Atleast two major arrests(10+) had refugee papers on all accused. Expect deportations, and a public outcry. Rightfully so.

What is further concerning is the number of websites and news authorities that tried to censor/ignore the story. Reddit, CNN, BBC, and more were actively banning submissions and commenters trying to discuss it.

 

[Morphis]

Posted it in the other thread (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1166720) as wel::

Eyewitness account. Audio in German, English subtitles. My German isn't perfect, but from what I could understand the subtitles are accurate.

Sound really horrible. Police was completely outnumbered. He says veteran police officers told him it was like a civil war zone.

 

[gutter_trash]

victim blaming drunk women on NYE is wrong.

sexual assault regardless of the state of the woman is always wrong.

as a secular liberal myself I say: fuck cultures who don't respect women

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Aaand...here we go.

Germany goes from the heroic humanitarian capital of the world and general shining light to modern day nazis in 30 seconds flat. The speed of the internet reaction is quite something.

If this was a news story about 1000 frat guys assaulting a bunch of college and high school girls at a party this thread would be 50 pages long with people calling for all white males to be severely punished and publicly shamed.

We can probably do without your lurid fantasies.

 

[Omegasquash]

Right? This thread is bizarre! Seeing a lot of questionable responses in here. From, 'lets wait and see if it was actually "brown" people', to 'great this will fuel the right wingers hate for "brown" people. If this was a news story about 1000 frat guys assaulting a bunch of college and high school girls at a party this thread would be 50 pages long with people calling for all white males to be severely punished and publicly shamed.

Get the fuck out of here with that. You're using a goddamn tragedy to make a point about how GAF wants people to be held accountable equally for a crime they commit.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

http://www.thelocal.de/20160104/refugees-blamed-for-mass-sexual-assault-in-cologne



A personal antidote of mine, and I was told this before the holidays. But a close friend of mine from the city has told me that the main square in Cologne (beside the Cologne cathedral, central station) has become a massive loitering spot for migrants. On most weekends the square is full. Most are just hanging out, but a good number are involved in street level crimes. Cologne has had over 20,000 of the million migrants that have entered Germany this year. My buddy thinks over 75 % of them are male (Which would equal the UNs estimates). This could be a clear case of too soon, too many, not enough jobs, dissatisfaction, failed integration (a year isn't long to integrate anybody anyways) old world patriarchal views and middle eastern sexism combined into one.

One of the parts I bolded is becoming increasing common in Europe, at least when the migrants/immigrant issue is concerned. There is extreme distrust of the media after the Rotherham issue in England and the perceived rape epidemic in Sweden. It probably goes even further back then that. The cognitive dissonance between the media and ordinary people grows everyday. If the media begins to be distrusted by a majority of Europeans, I could see more countries (that have right wing governments) institute policies like Poland has done recently, that lets the government have more control of the nations media outlets.

There is no media censorship in Germany. This is insane. Anyone who claims this is very likely a racist who is just spewing conspiracy bullshit.

Well people from the right are calling for mass concentration camps for refugees already.. Germany is gojng straight back to the 1930s these days.

Yes there are such people, but those people are pretty much outlawed in our society. Any such comments made will be criminally prosecuted.

Problem is that you can't deport someone back to their country if you don't know where they are from, or if their country of origin is unsafe. So the best you can do is lock them up for a while, and you can't lock them up for life.

Sorry EuroGAF, shit like this will probably get worse and more common in the coming years. Better figure out ways to protect yourself and your families.

This is not a "problem", this is the foundation of our society. These are human rights. And please spare us with this fearmongering crap. Europe is a very safe place to be.

It has been confirmed by police involved. Atleast two major arrests(10+) had refugee papers on all accused. Expect deportations, and a public outcry. Rightfully so.

What is further concerning is the number of websites and news authorities that tried to censor/ignore the story. Reddit, CNN, BBC, and more were actively banning submissions and commenters trying to discuss it.

Nobody will be deported. There will be criminal investigations, and the perpertrators will receive punishment.

Also, people are NOT censoring the story. They are just getting rid of the racist scum who is using this story, where many details remain unclear, for their hateful propaganda. Deal with it.

 

[daniels]

So now a crazy politicians sets behavior rules/suggestions for women ..fuck feminism it only counts for some .... what a joke.
So in Cologne woman now are suggested to change their behavior because of rapists and thieves... soo is this the integration the left keeps talking about?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

So now a crazy politicians sets behavior rules/suggestions for women ..fuck feminism it only counts for some .... what a joke.
So in Cologne woman now are suggested to change their behavior because of rapists and thieves... soo is this the integration the left keeps talking about?

This was predicted by many and was basically told left politicians and naive "welcome refugees" people every day, so you can "thank" these fools too for ignoring everyone with common sense.

The major who made this comment is not really from the "left", she doesn't even belong to a party. Also, she was heavily criticised from all sides for this comment. No one did really agree with her.

Also why the hell are you already talking about refugees? We don't know yet who is responsible for these crimes. Police are suspecting some people who might be immigrants, but immigrants are not necessarily the same as refugees.

 

[daniels]

There is no media censorship in Germany. This is insane. Anyone who claims this is very likely a racist who is just spewing conspiracy bullshit.

Actually there was until the pressure from social media and actual eyewitness reports, videos and countless facebook posts on media profiles forced them to finally at least report something... DAYS after the fact mind you.. one even apologized. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-germanys-welcoming-attitude-toward-refugees/

 

[Palette Swap]

This is so sickening. I really hope they crack down on all this filth and throw the book at these motherfuckers. Make an example of these criminals.

Still, it's not a good look for the Cologne Police, given their lack of results, and that mayor is a complete idiot for her insulting guidelines.

I'm a bit uneasy with people seeing these guys as migrants first, when their first characteristic is that they're fucking criminals. I mean, I get that some countries and cultures are oppressive to women and foster some incredibly disgusting male behavior, and integrating these guys can be very problematic. On the other hand, I don't think teetering into Trump territory will somehow magically fix things.
There's a fair and humane middle somewhere where you severely punish and deter criminals, make it crystal clear that being welcomed in a foreign country is a privilege, but don't assume people are all rapists.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Actually there was until the pressure from social media and actual eyewitness reports, videos and countless facebook posts on media profiles forced them to finally at least report something... DAYS after the fact mind you.. one even apologized. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-germanys-welcoming-attitude-toward-refugees/

What is this supposed to prove? One (1) TV channel said they made a mistake when they did not include it in a specific news broadcast at a certain time, because they wanted to wait for more information which was supposed to be revealed on a press conference. But they absolutely did report it at that day, here from their website:

http://www.heute.de/uebergriffe-auf...ilvesternacht-polizei-geschockt-41677414.html

How is this any proof of "censorship"? But that's typical. Can't be a mistake, must be a conspiracy!

It even says in the article that you linked, that press was careful because not much information was available:

In an effort to prevent a backlash against refugees, the Berlin-based tabloid B.Z. printed two front pages Wednesday. The first read: "Group of a thousand asylum seekers out of control." An explanation accompanied the headline: "This is how the B.Z. would look if we trusted the Internet."

On its second page, the newspaper presented its real cover, which read: "Those are the facts: We do not know who the perpetrators are." Many other Germans, however, have reached a different conclusion.

This is not censorship. This is journalism.

 

[Jumeira]

Appaling behaviour, when the police charge these men, and of they're refugees they can be deported without much paperwork right?

Feel sorry for the decent, thankful refugees who will be met with greater suspicion.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Appaling behaviour, when the police charge these men, and of they're refugees they can be deported without much paperwork right?

Feel sorry for the decent, thankful refugees who will be met with greater suspicion.

Nobody will be deported. Refugees are fleeing from war and hunger, they deserve protection. Germany is a progressive country which respects human rights, and we will not send criminal refugees back where they could die. The perpetrators will face a fair trial and receive a punishment according to our law, which could mean jail time. It is important to note, that at this time, we don't even know if any refugees were even involved in these crimes.

 

[Moonstar]

Appaling behaviour, when the police charge these men, and of they're refugees they can be deported without much paperwork right?

Feel sorry for the decent, thankful refugees who will be met with greater suspicion.

Cologne police already said they don't have hope that they will catch or charge many people since it was dark and I remember reading that crimes committed during the asylum process can not be considered in the ruling. It's crazy.

 

[Metrotab]

Cologne police already said they don't have hope that they will catch or charge many people since it was dark and I remember reading that crimes committed during the asylum process can not be considered in the ruling. It's crazy.

Where have you read this? Not attacking, genuinely interested into seeing why this would be.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Cologne police already said they don't have hope that they will catch or charge many people since it was dark and I remember reading that crimes committed during the asylum process can not be considered in the ruling. It's crazy.

Please someone tell me this is not true? So you can come to Germany, steal and assault people and still be approved? Surely that is wrong.

How is this "crazy"? It is true that this does not affect the asylum process, but they will absolutely receive punishement according to our law, if they were found guilty.

Why would you allow people in your country that are committing crimes? That is just crazy.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Cologne police already said they don't have hope that they will catch or charge many people since it was dark and I remember reading that crimes committed during the asylum process can not be considered in the ruling. It's crazy.

How is this "crazy"? It is true that this does not affect the asylum process, but they will absolutely receive punishement according to our law, if they were found guilty.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Please someone tell me this is not true? So you can come to Germany, steal and assault people and still be approved? Surely that is wrong.

Why would you allow people in your country that are committing crimes? That is just crazy.

If we deport them, they might die. We do not have the death penality in our country, for many reasons, one of them being, that we can never be 100% sure that the accused actually committed a specific crime. So we do not kill people. We do not send them back to die.

Edit: Sorry for double post, wanted to edit my last post.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If we deport them, they might die. We do not have the death penality in our country, for many reasons, one of them being, that we can never be 100% sure that the accused actually committed a specific crime. So we do not kill people. We do not send them back to die.

Edit: Sorry for double post, wanted to edit my last post.

Depends on the country they are coming from. For the others, lock them up until it is safe in their country and sent them back. If that means a long sentence because of it, so be it.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Punishment must be adequate to the committed crime. That's how our justice system works. Locking them up indefinitely is not an option. We also believe in resocialization. These are qualities usually found in modern, progressive societies.

 

[stufte]

If we deport them, they might die. We do not have the death penality in our country, for many reasons, one of them being, that we can never be 100% sure that the accused actually committed a specific crime. So we do not kill people. We do not send them back to die.

Edit: Sorry for double post, wanted to edit my last post.

Maybe the perpetrators should have thought about that when they were deciding to assault people in a country they were welcomed into.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Did you read the post? Innocent people have been convicted in the past. We do not kill convicts.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Depends on the country they are coming from. For the others, lock them up until it is safe in their country and sent them back. If that means a long sentence because of it, so be it.

But shouldnt we also respect our laws and values? As in, innocent until proven guilty, with a fair trial for everyone?

Or is this what values of our western civilization boils down to? All a fluke, and pretend? At the smallest sight of trouble, we will fucking eat each other...