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[dave is ok]

Did you read the post? Innocent people have been convicted in the past. We do not kill convicts.

Deportation isn't the same thing as the death penalty

 

[SolidusDave]

So what's the point of the long asylum application processes if people from warzones are virtually all accepted (as they should) while the majority of economic refugees are denied (and send back unless "gedulded"; as they should)?

Obviously you can't send people back to warzones even if they commit crimes (and so far Syrians weren't statistically standing out anyway), but surely crimes should factor in for the people from save countries?!

Having refugees (i.e. 70% single men) unnecessarily stay for years who either
- are not legally able to work for a long time and know they can't get send back or
- learn they have a very high chance of having their asylum denied
can have disastrous consequences (especially with the current numbers). I'm not necessarily talking only about crimes as that will always be just a small subset of people but also successful integration and the drain of resources for the people in actual need.

 

[ClosingADoor]

But shouldnt we also respect our laws and values? As in, innocent until proven guilty, with a fair trial for everyone?

Or is this what values of our western civilization boils down to? All a fluke, and pretend? At the smallest sight of trouble, we will fucking eat each other...

Where did I say anything about locking innocent people up?

It could lead to the same results. So the same principles apply here.

Not if the country is safe to sent them back to.

Punishment must be adequate to the committed crime. That's how our justice system works. Locking them up indefinitely is not an option. We also believe in resocialization. These are qualities usually found in modern, progressive societies.

I think when you are new in a country, you have a period in which you need to proof yourself. Messing up then and committing a crime would have you punished harder.

Resocialization is fine, but we can't educate the whole world. Where does our responsibility for these people end after they become criminals?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Deportation isn't the same thing as the death penalty

It could lead to the same results. So the same principles apply here.

 

[The Jackdog]

It could lead to the same results. So the same principles apply here.

no they really dont

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Where did I say anything about killing people?


Where did I say anything about locking innocent people up?

You want to lock someone up depending on outcomes in a different country - basically without any set duration, it doesn't make it sound any better, but excuse my error nevertheless.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I think when you are new in a country, you have a period in which you need to proof yourself. Messing up then and committing a crime would have you punished harder.

Resocialization is fine, but we can't educate the whole world. Where does our responsibility for these people end after they become criminals?

That's not how human rights work.

no they really dont

They do. Sorry if that's too difficult to understand for you.

 

[Kinyou]

It could lead to the same results. So the same principles apply here.

This is under the assumption that every refugee comes from a war torn country.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The refugees who have been granted asylum are usually coming from such countries.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You want to lock someone up depending on outcomes in a different country - basically without any set duration, it doesn't make it sound any better, but excuse my error nevertheless.

If someone commits a crime like assault, I think they should be denied asylum and sent back to the country they came from when that country is safe, since they have shown themselves incapable of functioning in a society here. Why should we take on the criminals of other countries? And if they are denied, you can't just let them roam the streets and disappear causing more crime later, so they need to be locked up.

Of course this will be for convicted criminals, nowhere do I agree with things like refusing everyone entrance (although I think the way it currently goes is not good and leads to trouble) or just sending people back to warzones.

That's not how human rights work.

How is it a breach of human rights to deny asylum to people here who commit a crime?

And yes, I know we don't know the attackers in this case and there is no proof about them being refugees or immigrants at the moment, although some media have reported some people arrested carried asylum papers and are not yet German citizens then.

 

[El Topo]

How is it a breach of human rights to deny asylum to people here who commit a crime?

Because in case of asylum from persecution it is literally a human right that you would be denying someone. Human rights are inalienable.

 

[| Praxis |]

Some people are so left wing they stick their fingers in their ears and will hear nothing bad said about migrants, refugees or immigrants the same way the right wing neonazi assholes do on the other side. Look at the culture and way of life some of these people grew up in, it's a fucking nightmare. Some will act like this but the majority won't. Look at how many western guys grope women in nightclubs (it's happened to my wife) and they were born and raised in what we consider to be cultured society. It's only realistic to expect a higher percentage of people behaving like this considering some of the cultures they come from, especially when alcohol and our liberal way of life come into play.

Doesn't mean all foreign people are going to do it, or even a high percentage, but there are obviously issues when it comes this kind of thing, as we have seen in the UK recently.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Because in case of asylum from persecution it is literally a human right that you are denying someone.

That's why I added "when that country is safe." Obviously we are not going to sent people to their deaths.

 

[Nivash]

That's why I added "when that country is safe." Obviously we are not going to sent people to their deaths.

But why would they be granted asylum in the first place then? Their countries of origin being unsafe due to war and persecution is literally the reason they qualify as refugees,

Unless you're talking about refugees who have been granted permanent residence and decided not to go back to their home countries after they became safe, for whatever reason, but then it's more a matter of whether or not you want a two-tier society where all residents in a country are not in fact equal before the law.

 

[El Topo]

That's why I added "when that country is safe." Obviously we are not going to sent people to their deaths.

But you cannot demand the right for asylum if you are from a safe country and/or not a target of persecution.

 

[ClosingADoor]

But why would they be granted asylum in the first place then? Their countries of origin being unsafe due to war and persecution is literally the reason they qualify as refugees,

Unless you're talking about refugees who have been granted permanent residence and decided not to go back to their home countries after they became safe, for whatever reason, but then it's more a matter of whether or not you want a two-tier society where all residents in a country are not in fact equal before the law.

You're right with that, it just seems so strange to me people who came here for help, commit crimes and thus rejecting the society that gives them shelter and a place can not be gotten rid off. And in Germany apparently their crimes can't even be grounds for refusing them permanent residence.

 

[Nivash]

You're right with that, it just seems so strange to me people who came here for help, commit crimes and thus rejecting the society that gives them shelter and a place can not be gotten rid off. And in Germany apparently their crimes can't even be grounds for refusing them permanent residence.

I get that, it's just a facet of how human rights work. You don't need to qualify for them and you can't disqualify yourself from them either. Some assholes are sadly going to take advantage of that. I guess it's just up to us to decide which values we're prepared to sacrifice to stop them and how that will impact the kind of society we live in, or just eat the consequences of sticking up for what we believe in.

Kinda the reason the refugee crisis sucks for everyone, really. Assholes making the world a worse place, both here and over there.

Touchy topic.
Most of the coverage I've read so far was either too apologetic and borderline victim blaming or straight up racist refugee bashing.
Will be interesting to see how germany handles it.

Anyway, the right wing in germany is having a field day.

Yeah, the crisis is polarising beyond belief. Europe hasn't been this split and at risk of falling apart politically since the end of the Cold War. And of course the far right loves this, it feeds right into their narrative that non-European people are animals we shouldn't give a second thought about caring for.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Touchy topic.
Most of the coverage I've read so far was either too apologetic and borderline victim blaming or straight up racist refugee bashing.
Will be interesting to see how germany handles it.

Anyway, the right wing in germany is having a field day.

Edit: Here is one media comments I would subscribe to:
http://www.taz.de/!5263102/

 

[ClosingADoor]

I get that, it's just a facet of how human rights work. You don't need to qualify for them and you can't disqualify yourself from them either. Some assholes are sadly going to take advantage of that. I guess it's just up to us to decide which values we're prepared to sacrifice to stop them and how that will impact the kind of society we live in, or just eat the consequences of sticking up for what we believe in.

Kinda the reason the refugee crisis sucks for everyone, really. Assholes making the world a worse place, both here and over there.

I just hope we can find some middle ground between giving these kind of people too much room to abuse the systems in place, and not helping anybody. It's a shame scum like this take up space and time from people who actually need the help really hard, and in the same time give those groups a bad name.

Bit more here about the way these criminals go about I just read. It's German, but Google translate is pretty good: http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article150698990/Antanz-Banden-agieren-immer-aggressiver.html

Some quotes through Google Translate also to make it easier:

The perpetrator seeks physical contact victims, deflects it off with a mesh and attempts to capture this trick phone or wallet. It is one of the oldest methods of pickpockets. [..] In order to get money or phones, this time they also committed massive sexual harassment.

In 2014 about 53 759 such offenses were in total registered - representing an increase of eight percent compared to the same period last year. [..] Even if it came to personal injury or sexual harassment in the thefts, is not indicated.

It is clear that it is conspicuously often concerns young people from North Africa or the Balkans at the perpetrators. Many come from Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Kosovo or Romania. Many live as asylum seekers or as foreigners with residence status in Germany. Some are younger than 16 years.

"What refugees concerns as perpetrators, Syrians and Iraqis are not previously noticed as particularly criminal," explains Kriminaldirektor Küch from Braunschweig. The problem may be a few refugees from North Africa, the Caucasus and the Balkans.

"The perpetrators will be more aggressive," said a policeman from northern Germany. Not infrequently, the victims would become threatened or beaten with knives.

To me it seems like escalation of this kind of stuff because police hasn't been able to stop this type of crime for now. Hopefully that will change. Some seem to be asylum seekers coming here, committing crimes while they are being processed and then being sent back later. If we could screen those kind of people out earlier, that would be good.

 

[dorn.]

There is no media censorship in Germany. This is insane. Anyone who claims this is very likely a racist who is just spewing conspiracy bullshit.

Bullshit. I consider myself reasonably well informed and the first time I heard of this was monday afternoon, almost four days after it happened. That's a long ass time in the internet age where headlines happen within minutes.

 

[FartOfWar]

There is no media censorship in Germany. This is insane. Anyone who claims this is very likely a racist who is just spewing conspiracy bullshit.

Newsday claims the reports were hidden as well. No explanation is provided, though: http://www.newsday.com/opinion/oped/germany-now-has-north-africa-s-sex-crime-troubles-1.11296999

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Bullshit. I consider myself reasonably well informed and the first time I heard of this was monday afternoon, almost four days after it happened. That's a long ass time in the internet age where headlines happen within minutes.

So what is more plausible:

1.) Crimes happened that night. Rumors on social media appear, racist sites begin spreading stuff like "1000 muslims rape women in Cologne". People don't have much information, it's unclear what happened, even police doesn't know what's going on. Reports were filed the following days after the night. Police gets a clearer picture, press gets more information and starts writing articles. There is a press conference on January 5th. More details are made public, now the incident is all over the news.

2.) There is a coordinated and united effort to hide any reports about this incident because... reasons.

Don't you see how insane you guys sound? There simply wasn't any good information available. Not even the police knew all facts. What should they have reported, "Stuff happened in cologne, we don't know what and we don't know who was involved"? Or should they have reported the racist bullshit spread on social media, where people claimed "1000 muslims have raped women in Cologne"?

 

[kitch9]

Well people from the right are calling for mass concentration camps for refugees already.. Germany is gojng straight back to the 1930s these days.

Uhm....

No.

 

[Musician]

So what is more plausible:

1.) Crimes happened that night. Rumors on social media appear, racist sites begin spreading stuff like "1000 muslims rape women in Cologne". People don't have much information, it's unclear what happened, even police doesn't know what's going on. Reports were filed the following days after the night. Police gets a clearer picture, press gets more information and starts writing articles. There is a press conference on January 5th. More details are made public, now the incident is all over the news.

2.) There is a coordinated and united effort to hide any reports about this incident because... reasons.

Don't you see how insane you guys sound? There simply wasn't any good information available. Not even the police knew all facts. What should they have reported, "Stuff happened in cologne, we don't know what and we don't know who was involved"? Or should they have reported the racist bullshit spread on social media, where people claimed "1000 muslims have raped women in Cologne"?

That's quite the straw man you have there!

 

[kitch9]

Some people are so left wing they stick their fingers in their ears and will hear nothing bad said about migrants, refugees or immigrants the same way the right wing neonazi assholes do on the other side. Look at the culture and way of life some of these people grew up in, it's a fucking nightmare. Some will act like this but the majority won't. Look at how many western guys grope women in nightclubs (it's happened to my wife) and they were born and raised in what we consider to be cultured society. It's only realistic to expect a higher percentage of people behaving like this considering some of the cultures they come from, especially when alcohol and our liberal way of life come into play.

Doesn't mean all foreign people are going to do it, or even a high percentage, but there are obviously issues when it comes this kind of thing, as we have seen in the UK recently.

I went nightclubbing in the UK every weekend pretty much for 15 years.

Groping certainly wasn't a thing.

 

[| Praxis |]

I went nightclubbing in the UK every weekend pretty much for 15 years.

Groping certainly wasn't a thing.

It definitely happens.

 

[Good Job Bob]

I went nightclubbing in the UK every weekend pretty much for 15 years.

Groping certainly wasn't a thing.

Are you a woman?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Some groping happens by shitheads in clubs and such, but not with a group of a dozen people surrounding girls and after that also stealing their phones and money.

 

[dorn.]

2.) There is a coordinated and united effort to hide any reports about this incident because... reasons.

No need for coordination, just plain self-censorship.

 

[daniels]

No need for coordination, just plain self-censorship.

yep pretty much anyone in Germany that followed social media at the same time this thing happened could see that .. but whatever.

 

[Replicant]

A bunch of creeps. Deport them and make sure the rest of the world know about these fuckers by publishing their photos to all anti crime agency in other countries.

 

[neorej]

https://translate.google.nl/transla...-brutalen-mob-23315166?dmcid=sm_tw&edit-text=

The officer now reports that there had been in the night 15 provisional arrests by his group.

These people were "definitely only a few days or weeks" have been in Germany: "Of these persons, 14 were from Syria and one from Afghanistan. That's the truth. Although it hurts. "

Another official had this been the EXPRESS confirmed (we reported).

"I've had young women weeping beside me, who wore no panties, after the crowd had spat them. These were pictures that shocked me and we had to process first.

Besides the fact that we were busy trying to protect ourselves because we were attacked massively. "

The 15 provisionally arrested had had "residence certificates for carrying out the asylum procedure" with them, the official said.

You have created so-called collecting lists on which the identity of the suspects had been detained. These are now under lock and key and secret.

Means: The statement by Chief of Police Wolfgang Albers, one does not know where the 1000 rioters came here on the station forecourt, so can not be right.

"We talked to refugee helpers who accompanied the night there, the Arab people. Even paramedics and emergency physicians can confirm that it has acted in part to asylum seekers, "explains the insider continued.

More at the link.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

https://translate.google.nl/transla...-brutalen-mob-23315166?dmcid=sm_tw&edit-text=



More at the link.

Express is the like Sun in the UK. I wouldnt trust that "newspaper". I think a lot of shit happened that night, but using the Express as a source, is not really trustworthy.

 

[daniels]

Express is the like Sun in the UK. I wouldnt trust that "newspaper". I think a lot of shit happened that night, but using the Express as a source, is not really trustworthy.

You can find this and similar things all over the non state ("owned"/of similar viewpoint/ self censorship) media for example the same thing is on oe24, krone (austria) and other.

http://www.krone.at/Welt/Polizeibea...die_Nacht_in_Koeln-15_Festnahmen-Story-489938

http://www.oe24.at/welt/Sex-Mob-in-Koeln-Das-geheime-Polizei-Protokoll/218811667

Also its not surprising that some news sources don't cover this or only late and in very small detail for example the insane orf (austrian state broadcast) mentions this in passing only... 5!! DAYS after the fact.. with not mention whatsoever of ANY details which usually never ever happens and this is in Austria not even Germany.

Really no surprise left leaning news don't want to make this too detailed... honestly the behavior of some of the media feels and reminds me of the self censorship in the mass sexual abuse case of children in rotherham.

 

[SolidusDave]

You can find this and similar things all over the non state ("owned"/of similar viewpoint/ self censorship) media for example the same thing is on oe24, krone (austria) and other.

http://www.krone.at/Welt/Polizeibea...die_Nacht_in_Koeln-15_Festnahmen-Story-489938

http://www.oe24.at/welt/Sex-Mob-in-Koeln-Das-geheime-Polizei-Protokoll/218811667

Also its not surprising that some news sources don't cover this or only late and in very small detail for example the insane orf (austrian state broadcast) mentions this in passing only... 5!! DAYS after the fact.. with not mention whatsoever of ANY details which usually never ever happens and this is in Austria not even Germany.

Really no surprise left leaning news don't want to make this too detailed... honestly the behavior of some of the media feels and reminds me of the self censorship in the mass sexual abuse case of children in rotherham.

The important detail is the mention of 14 Syrian refugees and that is just sourced from Express and goes directly against all official statements of the police.

 

[hobblygobbly]

What? Do you think germans would dare to confine people in mass shelters... Oh wait..

Every single thread over the last 2 days there has been a post like this.

Well people from the right are calling for mass concentration camps for refugees already.. Germany is gojng straight back to the 1930s these days.

"Going straight back to 1930s these days". Are you fucking serious? Do you know absolutely anything of German government/politics/law, society and culture post-WW2? How can you make such a stupid statement?

No one from the far right is calling that either. Secondly, far right presence in Germany is small and their protests have counter-protests multiple sizes larger against them.

This sort of passive-aggressive edginess is pathetic. The whole "Germans and mass concentration camps!" towards modern day Germans is some sad stereotypical bullshit where you equate it as some sort of definition of German identity, why don't you go just one step closer and call Germans nazis?

 

[neorej]

I think it's remarkable that the media jump on any attack on migrants and refugees, even without any substantial evidence other than witness reports, yet are so holding back in reporting on this event.
The result is that sites like Express, Sun and others are getting free reign in reporting the stories.

 

[daniels]

The important detail is the mention of 14 Syrian refugees and that is just sourced from Express and goes directly against all official statements of the police.

One talks about refugees and one about Syrian and afghan refugees... so yeah..
Also this is exactly what i mean with feeling similar to Roterham it kinda was the same.

Single individual police anonymously would talk about the sexual abuse of children and the attackers while the official police position was something like "there is no such thing".
Years later we now know that EVERYONE knew about it (politicians, children aid groups, police, media) the official position was just a Politically Correct paralyzing fear crap shoot that produced hundreds of sexually abused children all just to not be called racist.

Also remember Paris, everyone reporter that no refugees where involved and almost gleefully announced the political right was wrong... and time proved every single of these reports and naive people as wrong.
This is the same give it a week or two and you'll see..

 

[El Topo]

You can find this and similar things all over the non state ("owned"/of similar viewpoint/ self censorship) media for example the same thing is on oe24, krone (austria) and other.

Express? oe24? Krone? You claim that most media is lying, which is based on absolutely nothing, then you quote those? Might as well go to RT.

The Krone article explicitly cites Express, oe24 makes no mention that these were Syrian refugees. The Express article mentions that Syrian refugees had been arrested (provisionally), but avoids linking them directly to the sexual/physical assault of the women and only refers to the people at the train station in general.

What I would like to know is how the original statement regarding the events on NYE was published with such events going on.

Also its not surprising that some news sources don't cover this or only late and in very small detail for example the insane orf (austrian state broadcast) mentions this in passing only... 5!! DAYS after the fact.. with not mention whatsoever of ANY details which usually never ever happens and this is in Austria not even Germany.

ZIB seems to have spent several minutes on it on 1/5/15 (on their newscast), explaining it in quite some detail and even showing the testimony of a victim.

Really no surprise left leaning news don't want to make this too detailed... honestly the behavior of some of the media feels and reminds me of the self censorship in the mass sexual abuse case of children in rotherham.

Of course you don't want to make it too detailed.

I think it's remarkable that the media jump on any attack on migrants and refugees, even without any substantial evidence other than witness reports, yet are so holding back in reporting on this event.
The result is that sites like Express, Sun and others are getting free reign in reporting the stories.

Statement of the police from Saturday:http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/12415/3215530
Statement of the police from Sunday:http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/12415/3215749

Based on those alone it should not be surprising that this news story took a while to blow up. Multiple news sites, including SZ and Welt, reported the events early, with the information available at the time.

 

[daniels]

Express? oe24? Krone? You claim that most media is lying, which is based on absolutely nothing, then you quote those? Might as well go to RT.

The Krone article explicitly cites Express, oe24 makes no mention that these were Syrian refugees. The Express article mentions that Syrian refugees had been arrested (provisionally), but avoids linking them directly to the sexual/physical assault of the women and only refers to the people at the train station in general.

What I would like to know is how the original statement regarding the events on NYE was published with such events going on.



ZIB seems to have spent several minutes on it on 1/5/15 (on their newscast), explaining it in quite some detail and even showing the testimony of a victim.



Of course you don't want to make it too detailed.



Statement of the police from Saturday:http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/12415/3215530
Statement of the police from Sunday:http://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/12415/3215749

Based on those alone it should not be surprising that this news story took a while to blow up. Multiple news sites, including SZ and Welt, reported the events early, with the information available at the time.

You can believe what you want in the end i will be right again.
I take back my statement about giving it two weeks time... now i think i will be proven right sooner than in ~ two weeks
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/just...izeibericht-zur-silvesternacht-a-1070837.html

Also it didn't just happen in Germany everyone just talks about Germany because it was the biggest incident but apparently similar crap was going on in Austria.
http://salzburg.orf.at/m/news/stories/2751104/
http://www.krone.at/Oesterreich/Jet...ob-Anzeigen-Syrer_unter_Verdacht-Story-489985

 

[El Topo]

You can believe what you want in the end i will be right again.
I take back my statement about giving it two weeks time... now i think i will be proven right sooner than in ~ two weeks

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/just...izeibericht-zur-silvesternacht-a-1070837.html

You claimed ORF did not report this with details. You could argue about the extent of the coverage or the prominence it was given, but from what I can tell it was certainly reported with most details known at the time. Even on Youtube multiple clips can be found.

You just claimed the media was lying and at best only reporting on this very late, yet by now we have some of the biggest German sites (including SPON and Bild) reporting on this already.

There is no media conspiracy. If something is not covered or investigated extensively in media it is not because of some internal censorship. The media is not perfect, the media fucks up, media may be biased, but for some reason I don't recall anyone (ever) bringing this up e.g. when it turned out that NSU had murdered people instead of some elusive, mysterious foreign mafia. Well, except for people claiming that the media was lying and that NSU was not real.

People repeat this media conspiracy time and time again and never come up with evidence, let alone something resembling a coherent, reasonable article. No one in this thread has done it.

You leave out details, because the moment you have to provide details, the moment you have to give concrete answers, the moment you have to provide actual acknowledged statistics, you either have to massively restrict your claims or they fall apart.

You will be proven right? Go ahead, make an actual, verifiable, explicit prediction, not vague bullshit.

 

[waveuponwave]

Come on, Krone and the like are really not reliable.

There is no media conspiracy. Even the taz, which is as left-wing as you can get without leaving the "established" media, devotes a lot of space to this.

http://taz.de/Uebergriffe-in-Koeln/!5263053/
http://taz.de/Gewaltserie-in-der-Silvesternacht/!5266774/

Tabloids reporting and scandalizing asap, others waiting for more reliable information. Nothing to see here