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[rdrr gnr]

If the indoctrination theory is true then what the fuck was the point of the Stargazer sequence? Doesn't make sense, sorry.

I accounted for issues like yours in one of my previous posts. One could argue that the entire post-decision sequence is there to represent the process as it occurs. Shepard could, in theory, be witnessing the Stargazer sequences because we as the player also need to be there to witness the indoctrination. In other words, if the sequence gives us (thereby, Shepard) more closure, it simply does so as a natural part of the indoctrination process.

Bump for new page (not in the OP):

Angry Joe addresses ME3 Indoctrination Theory

 

[Zerokku]

Ok, so I feel the need to pull up a chair. I finished this last night.

Five years making my choices, chosing my bro's and my Waifu and I get this fucking shit. I could forgive TIMs indoctrination and his human control powers because it was at least plausible within the universe. Everything was awesome up until the jesus elevator.

I fully expected Shepard to die, but not in this shitty manner.

It won't change the fact that it was the best game series I've ever played, but man. I need to go ly dow.

Mostly I'm upset I won't get Mass Effect 4: The Adventures of Garrus. I don't even know if my bro survived earth

Pull up a chair and join the conversations. We're here for you. Its as much a support group as it is discussion.

 

[Replicant]

See ME3 ending. Go ly dow.

 

[Metroidvania]

Apparently Bioware data says less than 50% of the people have finished the game, according to Jessica Merizan. She then explains that's why Bioware is still collecting data and hasn't issued a statement.

Right after that was a response asking "what about people who haven't finished the game in protest?"

I lol'd.

According to Walters, most died. He confirmed it by tweet.

Aria escaped for further adventures in DLC.

Which is stupid. What was the point of those sidequests for "war assets" if the people on them died? Dr Michel, Jacob, Kolyat, the Council.....yeah.

But Aria is able to either mysteriously sneak through reaper control, or more likely, discover a "sudden weakness" she can exploit and asks Shepard for assistance.

 

[Jake Tower]

Shepard gets up and he is VERY ANGRY.
Shepard proceeds to rip off his armor while this plays in the background.
The Reapers never saw it coming.

SHEPARDMANIA RUNNIN' WILD!

BROTHER!

 

[Lancehead]

As someone who doesn't have an emotional attachment to the series, I find this saga very entertaining. Perhaps the best saga BioWare made since Baldur's Gate. Only, this time it's unintentional.

 

[Nibel]

Was this posted yet?

Mass Effect 3 ending controversy saddens BioShock creator

Those calling on BioWare to change the ending to Mass Effect 3 would only end up disappointed if they somehow got their own way, so says BioShock creator Ken Levine.
Speaking at a Smithsonian panel in Washington DC last week, as attended by Vox, Levine admitted that he found the whole controversy rather depressing.

"I think this is an important moment," he said.

"I think if those people got what they wanted and [BioWare] wrote their ending they would be very disappointed in the emotional feeling they got because... they didn't really create it.

"This whole thing is making me a little bit sad because I don't think anyone would get what they wanted if that happened."

BioWare Mythic's Paul Barnett, also speaking at the event, chimed in on the issue too, arguing that the creator should always have final say over how their story ends.
"If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," he said.

"Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

Source

 

[rdrr gnr]

SHEPARDMANIA RUNNIN' WILD!

BROTHER!

LOCO!

 

[Jarmel]

Apparently Bioware data says less than 50% of the people have finished the game, according to Jessica Merizan. She then explains that's why Bioware is still collecting data and hasn't issued a statement.

Right after that was a response asking "what about people who haven't finished the game in protest?"

That's bullshit. The ME2 completion number wasn't much higher than that. The officially released stats for ME2 was around 50% according to Bioware.

Was this posted yet?

Mass Effect 3 ending controversy saddens BioShock creator

Source

There's the underlying problem with their argument. They think games are in of themselves art. By that underlying argument, criticism of games would be invalid because it would be as the creators envisioned it. I also think most people would have a problem saying COD is any form of art.

 

[Jake Tower]

LOCO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02s5WSNpsSY

 

[MegaKungFuRadio]

I'm sure this has been posted, but a video comparing the "six" different ending situations.

http://youtu.be/rPelM2hwhJA

I think my favorite part is that the only thing to distinguish "good" from "bad" is whether or not the soldiers lift their arms in celebration. Or in the case of vaporization, get blown to bits.

So. Fucking. Lazy.

The series deserved better than this. At least Blizzard and Valve know when to delay their games, and Blizzard is tied to Activision, now, so is EA really a good excuse? Then again, BioWare doesn't really deserve to be mentioned with those two, but Mass Effect could have easily been a series that deserved mention with WarCraft, StarCraft, and Half-Life. I still like the game and think a lot of people are overreacting big time, but I'm starting to find myself sounding more and more like them.

 

[Papercuts]

Was this posted yet?

Mass Effect 3 ending controversy saddens BioShock creator



Source

Well, they're basically shitty ending brothers, so that isn't surprising.

 

[Zeliard]

What happened to all the people in the citadel when it closed? Were they all harvested?

They're chillin' with the Catalyst out in deep space, exchanging pleasantries with the Reapers. Harbinger cooks a mean breakfast.

 

[Jarmel]

Well, they're basically shitty ending brothers, so that isn't surprising.

I wish I could force Levine to go back and fix Bioshock's crap ending.

 

[Lancehead]

Was this posted yet?

Mass Effect 3 ending controversy saddens BioShock creator



Source

They shouldn't change the ending, history should remember this incompetence.

 

[EatChildren]

There's the underlying problem with their argument. They think games are in of themselves art. By that underlying argument, criticism of games would be invalid because it would be as the creators envisioned it. I also think most people would have a problem saying COD is any form of art.

But there's no real problem with the argument. They're not discrediting criticism, but the notion that fans are entitled to a changed ending. Levine feels the author has authority over what they create and doesn't agree with the notion that fan response should lead to revision or change. BioWare are entitled to do whatever they want with their game and the ending.

 

[Aaron]

No artist retains full ownership of their material once it's released to the public. There's an interaction, even in something like a painting or a song. Plus books and movies have gotten revisions after the fact due to public reaction. Why should games be different?

I wish I could force Levine to go back and fix Bioshock's crap ending.

Would be very easy. Go into the game, search for 'a slave obeys,' and delete everything after it.

 

[LiK]

I wish I could force Levine to go back and fix Bioshock's crap ending.

The good ending was good, imo. People mainly complained about the final boss fight.

 

[jediyoshi]

Was this posted yet?

Mass Effect 3 ending controversy saddens BioShock creator

Source

"I think if those people got what they wanted and [BioWare] wrote their ending they would be very disappointed in the emotional feeling they got because... they didn't really create it.

"This whole thing is making me a little bit sad because I don't think anyone would get what they wanted if that happened."

Joke's on Levine, I don't think BioWare could craft an ending that'd upset more people as it does now.

 

[Jarmel]

But there's no real problem with the argument. They're not discrediting criticism, but the notion that fans are entitled to a changed ending. Levine feels the author has authority over what they create and doesn't agree with the notion that fan response should lead to revision or change. BioWare are entitled to do whatever they want with their game and the ending.

By legal rights of course it's impossible to force any developer to do anything. However Barnett stated, ""If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen". Certain games aren't art though in the traditional sense. The best term I've heard recently is that most games are commercial art in that they are targeted towards a particular demographic and produced with a certain goal in mind in regards to profit. If that's the case then it should be treated just like any other product.

I mean most artists in the past, and even now, sometimes answer to consumers and if the consumers aren't happy about a particular piece then the artists have to change it to meet the consumer's, or sponsor's, demands.

 

[Replicant]

Was this posted yet?

Mass Effect 3 ending controversy saddens BioShock creator

Self-pity speech is not going to regain sympathy from 60,000 fans who are angry about the ending. Just saying.

 

[derFeef]

Don't clamp too much on the "art" argument. Levine is right, Bioware does not have to to anything if they don't want.

 

[Jarmel]

Don't clamp too much on the "art" argument. Levine is right, Bioware does not have to to anything if they don't want.

Well that's not necessarily true. EA controls Bioware in the sense if the EA executives wanted Bioware to write a new ending, then it will happen or people are getting fired. I highly doubt right now that Bioware is having much of a say in the matter due to how big of a public deal the endings have become and how this reflects on EA as a whole.

 

[LiK]

Don't clamp too much on the "art" argument. Levine is right, Bioware does not have to to anything if they don't want.

Of course they don't, but they're mulling over it since many fans won't give a shit about the DLC or future ME games after this shitstorm.

 

[Arjen]

Holy fuck, this thread moved so fast i thought there would be some news

 

[McNum]

I don't think they really want to go down the whole "games as art" route for this, to be honest. Because when money gets involved, it becomes a commission, and then the buyer most certainly has the right to complain and demand changes. Of course, the artist can refuse, but he'll see much less commissions from then on.

Which is pretty much what we're seeing here. I wonder what will happen with the first story DLC, Omega or otherwise, that ME3 gets after this. If it's not a new ending for the game, I doubt it will sell anywhere close to expectations. That would get EA involved, because Mass Effect is a cash cow, and if Bioware messed that up, then someone is going to get yelled at.

 

[Jarmel]

I don't think they really want to go down the whole "games as art" route for this, to be honest. Because when money gets involved, it becomes a commission, and then the buyer most certainly has the right to complain and demand changes. Of course, the artist can refuse, but he'll see much less commissions from then on.

Which is pretty much what we're seeing here. I wonder what will happen with the first story DLC, Omega or otherwise, that ME3 gets after this. If it's not a new ending for the game, I doubt it will sell anywhere close to expectations. That would get EA involved, because Mass Effect is a cash cow, and if Bioware messed that up, then someone is going to get yelled at.

If EA was so concerned about their cash cow disappearing then this ending wouldn't have happened in the first place.

This issue has become less about ME as a franchise and more about the public perception of Bioware.

 

[MegaKungFuRadio]

Would a new ending even make people feel better?

I would personally think even less of BioWare if they didn't stand their ground on this. It's not like an epilogue, no matter how good, will change the fact that the game shipped with an offensively bad ending.

Next GDC should be very interesting...

 

[Aaron]

Bioware shouldn't stand their ground. They should fix the ending and make everyone happy because that's what's best for the continued health of the series. They should spout bullshit about being rushed or whatever, but this isn't going to be forgotten like Deception has. This ending is what most people will think about when they think Mass Effect, even if they didn't finish the third game.

 

[Snuggles]

The space ghost kid made me feel guilty so I walked into the green lasers. Then I turned into a mummy. Joker and EDI crashed on a jungle planet then I skipped the credits and some old guy was telling fairy tales about Shepard.

Fair enough.

 

[z0m3le]

But there's no real problem with the argument. They're not discrediting criticism, but the notion that fans are entitled to a changed ending. Levine feels the author has authority over what they create and doesn't agree with the notion that fan response should lead to revision or change. BioWare are entitled to do whatever they want with their game and the ending.

Yes, BioWare and EA ultimately own Mass Effect and can do whatever they want with the series, but their business model does answer to fans, and fans have every right to complain about the ending and ask for a new one (or in many people's cases, to add on to the current end through indoctrination theory)

The product ultimately lays in the hands of the company, but the company ultimately lays in the hands of their customers, and us asking for what we were promised (a game that takes our choices into account and shows how what we did mattered, well that can't be accomplished in the rainbow color endings we have now) We will likely get the DLC, whether it was planned from the beginning or not, really doesn't matter, and having seen some of Jessica's tweets, it is starting to look like some sort of post ME3 was planned all along and she has just not talked about it, because not enough people have finished the game.

 

[McNum]

If EA was so concerned about their cash cow disappearing then this ending wouldn't have happened in the first place.

This issue has become less about ME as a franchise and more about the public perception of Bioware.

Well that problem is easily solved! Shut down Bioware!

The name "Bioware" is expendable, as long as the franchises keep existing. There can be a new Dragon Age and expansions for The Old Republic without it.

The worst part is I'm only half-joking. Think like a corporate executive, for a moment. If Bioware gets a reputation that significantly impacts sales, Bioware is done for. The people working there may or may not be absorbed into other EA studios, and a few people will be sacrificed to show that EA means business.

Isn't that a delightfully glum perspective? But EA has done it before. Ask Bullfrog and Origin about that.

 

[Snuggles]

But yeah, what's done is done. Even if Bioware gives in to the internet and sells us a new ending, it won't be the same. You can't retcon that shit out of our memories. I'm not entirely satisfied with it, but I'd rather just move on.

 

[Photolysis]

"Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one."

This seems to show that Barnett just doesn't get it. No one is asking for a new book. People are asking for an ending that doesn't come out of nowhere 100 pages before it should, where the last 50 pages are an incoherent mess, and which degenerates into a 'choose your own adventure' book on the final page where you pick red, green, or blue.

There will always be some who ask for endings to be changed, but the sheer scope of this exists simply because there is widespread disrespect for the ending Bioware has created. And that's because the ending really is that badly written.

 

[Aaron]

But yeah, what's done is done. Even if Bioware gives in to the internet and sells us a new ending, it won't be the same. You can't retcon that shit out of our memories. I'm not entirely satisfied with it, but I'd rather just move on.

Except you can. If Bioware makes a DLC ending, makes it free so everyone can potentially have it, this new ending is what people will vividly remember two years from now when the next Mass Effect game hits. The old ending will be this vague thing that most people won't even get straight, and most won't care because if the new DLC ending does its job right it'll make people want more Mass Effect.

 

[EatChildren]

By legal rights of course it's impossible to force any developer to do anything. However Barnett stated, ""If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen". Certain games aren't art though in the traditional sense. The best term I've heard recently is that most games are commercial art in that they are targeted towards a particular demographic and produced with a certain goal in mind in regards to profit. If that's the case then it should be treated just like any other product.

I mean most artists in the past, and even now, sometimes answer to consumers and if the consumers aren't happy about a particular piece then the artists have to change it to meet the consumer's, or sponsor's, demands.

I'm not arguing that BioWare shouldn't respond to fans, just that they don't have to. The art argument stands as, despite what the product may offer as a whole, on a creative side the authors of the content are free to do as they please.

But, in turn, they must subject themselves to analysis and criticism from fans. Which is what people are doing, and for good reason.

Yes, BioWare and EA ultimately own Mass Effect and can do whatever they want with the series, but their business model does answer to fans, and fans have every right to complain about the ending and ask for a new one (or in many people's cases, to add on to the current end through indoctrination theory)

The product ultimately lays in the hands of the company, but the company ultimately lays in the hands of their customers, and us asking for what we were promised (a game that takes our choices into account and shows how what we did mattered, well that can't be accomplished in the rainbow color endings we have now) We will likely get the DLC, whether it was planned from the beginning or not, really doesn't matter, and having seen some of Jessica's tweets, it is starting to look like some sort of post ME3 was planned all along and she has just not talked about it, because not enough people have finished the game.

Right, but the argument that consumers were promised something that was not delivered is a legal area and a pretty grey one. It's one for the courts, and lawyers.

At face value there's nothing that necessarily has to be done. You see a bad movie, and the director is under no obligation to change it no matter how much you paid for a ticket or DVD or whatever. BioWare doesn't have to do anything if they don't want to. If they really, truly didn't want to they wouldn't even need to respond to the criticism at all. Literally just ignore it.

But whatever they do will reflect on the company as a whole. I just hope fans remember this. Their entitlement isn't getting what they want, it's being able to criticise BioWare for their work and responding appropriately.

 

[Jintor]

Medium Difficulty just dropped a post on 'gamer entitlement', linking it (as I would have done similarly) to expectations encouraged by pre-release interviews and the larger expectations of participatory culture. It's worth a read. This is also part of a general Mass Effect series of essays by contributors.

 

[Lancehead]

Game design is a creative process, and writing is a part of it. Changing an ending after the fact would be betraying the creative vision, however the bad the final product may have been. I think that's what Levine was getting at. In Mass Effect's case, however, one could argue that the creative vision had long since been compromised.

 

[Basileus777]

This isn't really just about the ending. People would have been disappointed and hated it, but it would never have reached these heights if Bioware hadn't spent years alienating their fan base and committing gaffe after gaffe. The damage to their reputation is done, it's not something that can be fixed in the short term.

 

[Zeliard]

This seems to show that Barnett just doesn't get it. No one is asking for a new book. People are asking for an ending that doesn't come out of nowhere 100 pages before it should, where the last 50 pages are an incoherent mess, and which degenerates into a 'choose your own adventure' book on the final page where you pick red, green, or blue.

So you're asking for new pages.

 

[Aaron]

So you're asking for new pages.

JRR Tolkien did it for the Hobbit. Why can't Bioware?

 

[Snuggles]

Except you can. If Bioware makes a DLC ending, makes it free so everyone can potentially have it, this new ending is what people will vividly remember two years from now when the next Mass Effect game hits. The old ending will be this vague thing that most people won't even get straight, and most won't care because if the new DLC ending does its job right it'll make people want more Mass Effect.

Eh, it's just such a weird concept...retroactively changing the end of a story to please people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Bioware or the bizarre ending, I'm just saying that I'd have a hard time accepting a "new" ending after I've witnessed the ending BW intended for me to see. It's been etched into my brain. But I'm probably like 20K posts late to this discussion, gotta beat games faster lol.

 

[Jake Tower]

Well that problem is easily solved! Shut down Bioware!

The name "Bioware" is expendable, as long as the franchises keep existing. There can be a new Dragon Age and expansions for The Old Republic without it.

The worst part is I'm only half-joking. Think like a corporate executive, for a moment. If Bioware gets a reputation that significantly impacts sales, Bioware is done for. The people working there may or may not be absorbed into other EA studios, and a few people will be sacrificed to show that EA means business.

Isn't that a delightfully glum perspective? But EA has done it before. Ask Bullfrog and Origin about that.

 

[Aaron]

Eh, it's just such a weird concept...retroactively changing the end of a story to please people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Bioware or the bizarre ending, I'm just saying that I'd have a hard time accepting a "new" ending after I've witnessed the ending BW intended for me to see. It's been etched into my brain. But I'm probably like 20K posts late to this discussion, gotta beat games faster lol.

If you can accept all the changes Mass Effect 3 brought to the previous games, a new ending really isn't going to throw you as much as you think.

 

[Jintor]

Eh, it's just such a weird concept...retroactively changing the end of a story to please people. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Bioware or the bizarre ending, I'm just saying that I'd have a hard time accepting a "new" ending after I've witnessed the ending BW intended for me to see. It's been etched into my brain. But I'm probably like 20K posts late to this discussion, gotta beat games faster lol.

What's done is done. It can't be unsaid.

 

[Zen]

And it's not like a new ending would, in all likelihood, write over the previous ending, they have plenty of options for continuing from where the current one ends off.

 

[derFeef]

If you can accept all the changes Mass Effect 3 brought to the previous games, a new ending really isn't going to throw you as much as you think.

It would feel like an alternative, and not a real ending. Even if it's better.

 

[Snuggles]

And it's not like a new ending would, in all likelihood, write over the previous ending, they have plenty of options for continuing from where the current one ends off.

but my shepard is a mummy now

What's done is done. It can't be unsaid.

yep...it's hard to digest, but I'm ready to push it out, flush it down and get on with my life

 

[EvilRedEye]

There's a lot of talk of Bioware's 'creative vision' but I think it goes beyond that really. Bioware might have come up with a creative vision but then they executed it badly. So you have people confused as to whether the destruction of the mass relays causes an implied genocide, and bafflement as to why Joker is flying away from Earth with people who appear to have magically transported up from the surface. The ending sequences lack clarity on a nuts-and-bolts level. I wonder how the ending would have gone down if they'd gone in the same general direction but not left people confused in this way.

 

[z0m3le]

Except you can. If Bioware makes a DLC ending, makes it free so everyone can potentially have it, this new ending is what people will vividly remember two years from now when the next Mass Effect game hits. The old ending will be this vague thing that most people won't even get straight, and most won't care because if the new DLC ending does its job right it'll make people want more Mass Effect.

The ending they would likely do would probably use indoctrination theory, which means the ending you have right now DID happen, it just wasn't the end, it was a battle in Shepard's mind, him waking up on earth at the very end of the red ending actually does hint at the possibility, he would just get up and finish the game... Right now they could leave the ending as is, but they likely will add on to the current ending through DLC, it would in fact be down right amazing for some people... I was ok with the ending until I finished the game with the complete ending, having Shepard alive on earth at the end, made me realize just how unsatisfying the ending was, and truly made me believe in the indoctrination theory.

Bioware's Jessica Merizan, has pretty much said as much, just watch the angry joe video that is listed on the last 2 pages, it starts around the 19 minute mark, her Tweets allude to something Bioware has planned considering the end:

March 13th Jake Finn: "Are you holding something back, that could quell the large amount of frustration from the community? a tiny hint would be enough.

Mass Effect @jackfinn94: Mike Gamble already said on this twitter, if the fans knew what was in store, the reaction would be different.

Indoctrination theory could have been planned all along, but it's a good escape even if it wasn't, thanks to a possible accident in using cement and rebar around Shepard at the very end of the game.