Freedom = $1.05
Banned
It's about time we got a sequel to Armed & Dangerous.
"Massive" Announcement - BioWare MMO Starwars: The Old Republic
- Thread starter McBacon
- Start date
Oni Link 666
Member
I hope it's KOTOR 3 and not an MMORPG even though if anyone can make a better MMO than WoW, it's Bioware.
Mr. Spinnington
Banned
i'm calling it
This is the attitude and thoughts that makes me consider a part of GAF a hypocritical joke. Anything with the MMO label on a game makes people flinch, yet they're eager to take out the K-Y Jelly and stroke themselves over a 4 player co-op option that seems to be rushed into in a supposed "100 hours in length!" RPG just for the sake of it.jrricky said:
Funny thing is.. isn't that practically the baby steps of what an MMO is - Co-op gameplay?
The comments on the previous page are hinting that it's the player's fault they dislike the genre, not the genre in question. Their willpower to put the game down when they've had enough seems to be lacking, and they dislike the notion of paying a developer subscription money for dedicated servers, more content than you can shake a stick at, as well as continued QA support. Whilst WoW makes a shitload of money, just imagine how much of that is invested into the 200+ servers, GMs and the developer's themselves making 50-200mb patch after patch.
I would say the fundamental difference between co-op and an MMO is in things like White Knight Chronicle you will be a hero, the central character which everything revolves around. It has a focused and concise storyline, with an end point you work towards. In WoW you're one of 11 million nobody's wondering the planet until you eventually give up or they close the servers.
You forgot the other important part behind MMOs. In WoW or WAR I can be in a guild numbering 40-80 strong online at any time, where the social aspect of the game trumps anything else available in any other game (besides perhaps FPS online). I get to choose whether to grab a few of my comrades and go storm into a town or Keep and raise hell, or I waltz through an instance/dungeon in groups of 10-25 players and take arms against multiple bosses all requiring their own strategies.stuburns said:
Heck, god help me when I reach the level cap on WAR (which I've leveled by PVP alone) and we're steamrolling cities numbering in the hundreds, where every person you are playing with and playing against is another person trying to help the attack or stem the tide by defending.
It's time for the MMO hate on GAF to fucking die. The problem is yourself, not the genre.
And yet it's right to continually lap at the bullshit that is DLC?jrricky said:
I actually enjoyed WoW from what I played, I'm not an MMO hater, I just said why co-op in a single player console game is totally different. But I certainly preferred questing with just three or four mates all talking over vent. It's a matter of taste, but I prefer to hang out with a small group of people over a massive number. I don't think it's more fun to socialize with 40 to 80 people, then it is to 4 to 8.speedpop said:
I actually dont give a CRAP about downloadable content. I dont spend extra money on a $50 or $60 game that I was hesitant to buy already for that price.speedpop said:
You are saying this like people said its right.
EDIT:MMO's need to stay away from consoles. Its even worse to pay monthly for it than downloadable content. Oh and nothing trumps a well done single player game or a local multiplayer game.
I never said it was fun to roll with a big group, I don't play WoW now but when I did some of my favourite moments were running through dungeons with 3 other players.. but those memories also include raiding co-operatively in another dungeon that took 2 hours with 24 other players because of the chatter amongst the people.stuburns said:
I seriously don't know why MMOs get hated on this forum, and the only thing I can gesture towards is the person's own problems or lack of game experience in the genre itself. The only complaint that seems valid is the fact that they want closure on their games, a sense of accomplishment to finally put the game away. But that never stopped me from killing off bosses in WoW and eventually putting the game away because I felt I had accomplished enough.
Other reasons that are genuinely pathetic and need to be stomped on;
- Grinding PVE aspect i.e. kill 10 x bunnies, 5 x wolves. WAR blows that notion apart.
- Subscription based. Countless of MMOs are out there that are free (and tend to suck because of no dedicated monetary gain), not to mention Guild Wars which is still popular amongst my friends.
- Boring character gameplay. Because mashing a combination of buttons in the "Tales of" series, or producing a proper turn-based strategy turn against the end-boss in Dragon Quest is much more riveting and exciting than timing and predicting your spells and abilities correctly in WoW against other players/mobs/bosses.
Did I ever single you out in any of my posts in this thread? I don't think so, I may have quoted you and replied to your statements, but I never stated "JRRICKY ENJOYS DLC!!!" I am talking about the general populace of GAF in relation to your posts.jrricky said:
Also the MMOs on consoles thing is a bit too late, it was done 8 years ago. I agree that the genre does need to stay away from consoles but only because of the dumbing down a game eventually has to go through to be on them.
You don't think that's got anything to do with the waves of MMOs that turn into grindfests after the first month or so? I've played WoW, Everquest, Eve Online, Guild Wars, City of Heroes and I can't get past the first month. Each and every one of them (except for Guild Wars which isn't really MMO at all) has bored me silly due to grinding. I just can't be bothered giving them the time anymore.speedpop said:
The blind, ignorant MMO hate is getting pretty annoying.
A. Not every MMO has a monthly fee. And those that do have to constantly churn out new content and keep things fresh in order to keep their subscribers.
B. Not every MMO is exactly like WoW. Just because it's technically a MMO doesn't mean it's a quest-based grindfest. Hell, even the original Star Wars MMO, SWG, wasn't anything close to what you guys are moaning about the KotoR MMO being.
C. Regarding this:
I can tell you from experience that killing an end-game boss in an MMO feels a thousand times more epic and satisfying than anything in a single-player RPG. It's a hard feeling to convey to someone who has never experienced it. In fact, single player RPGs feel kind of insignificant after playing MMOs for awhile, because your accomplishments in single player games can't be shared with other actual people and don't actually effect other people. Reading a scripted "Congratulations" from an NPC in a RPG feels pretty empty after having a couple dozen people scream with glee at finally killing a boss in a raid after weeks of work and then getting to show off your new piece of loot to everyone you run into back at the capital city. And that's just the WoW model, other MMO structures like EVE or WAR offer even bigger ways to affect other players experience and change the landscape of your virtual world.
A. Not every MMO has a monthly fee. And those that do have to constantly churn out new content and keep things fresh in order to keep their subscribers.
B. Not every MMO is exactly like WoW. Just because it's technically a MMO doesn't mean it's a quest-based grindfest. Hell, even the original Star Wars MMO, SWG, wasn't anything close to what you guys are moaning about the KotoR MMO being.
C. Regarding this:
I can tell you from experience that killing an end-game boss in an MMO feels a thousand times more epic and satisfying than anything in a single-player RPG. It's a hard feeling to convey to someone who has never experienced it. In fact, single player RPGs feel kind of insignificant after playing MMOs for awhile, because your accomplishments in single player games can't be shared with other actual people and don't actually effect other people. Reading a scripted "Congratulations" from an NPC in a RPG feels pretty empty after having a couple dozen people scream with glee at finally killing a boss in a raid after weeks of work and then getting to show off your new piece of loot to everyone you run into back at the capital city. And that's just the WoW model, other MMO structures like EVE or WAR offer even bigger ways to affect other players experience and change the landscape of your virtual world.
FateBreaker
Member
I assure you that I hate MMORPGs for many justifiable reasons.Spire said:
Thunder Monkey
Banned
...
I just don't want KotOR to be a MMORPG.
Is that too much to ask?
I just don't want KotOR to be a MMORPG.
Is that too much to ask?
brandonh83
Banned
jett said:
:lol *high-five*
MMO's and FPS, bitches! hoo-rah!
LotRO also did this and did it pretty well.
And again, not all MMOs have the exact same type of gameplay. Please stop lumping all MMOs under the "WoW" banner. Take the upcoming Jumpgate Evolution (currently in beta) for example, which plays more like Rogue Squadron than anything else. Or Puzzle Pirates, which is wildly different than WoW. Or Planetside. Or WWII Online. Or Auto Assault. Pretty much any type of gameplay is possible under the MMO umbrella.
But somehow when you add the "MMO" tag to any game, no matter how cool it may sound (say, car combat in Auto Assault), you are instantly making the whole thing far clumsier and less fun than non-MMO games that have the same kind of gameplay.Spire said:
For example, Planetside and WWII Online are pretty damn clunky shooters compared to about a thousand other FPSs I could name.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
I've seen FFXI. It's boring as shit. I've also seen what it does to people. I'm not going out like that.
Spire, while I can appreciate your love of the genre and what it entails, you have to realize most of the stuff you're talking about is some of the most reprehensible shit imaginable to your typical console gamer. There's a reason why FF games sell multiple millions, and a FF MMORPG has a max player count of several hundred thousand across multiple platforms.
Yes, many people enjoy RPGs where they are complete badasses and don't need a group of 30 to back them up in a boss fight. Many people don't enjoy literal role-playing with strangers. And many people can't deal with the time sink and/or coordination with others' schedules in order to do anything worthwhile in the game.
Spire said:
Spire, while I can appreciate your love of the genre and what it entails, you have to realize most of the stuff you're talking about is some of the most reprehensible shit imaginable to your typical console gamer. There's a reason why FF games sell multiple millions, and a FF MMORPG has a max player count of several hundred thousand across multiple platforms.
Yes, many people enjoy RPGs where they are complete badasses and don't need a group of 30 to back them up in a boss fight. Many people don't enjoy literal role-playing with strangers. And many people can't deal with the time sink and/or coordination with others' schedules in order to do anything worthwhile in the game.
aeolist said:
That's mostly true, but both of those games suffered from the limited technology at the time and shitty design decisions. I'll bet money that we'll see a surprisingly solid MMOFPS within the next 10 years, especially as more and more developers realize they can't beat WoW at it's own game and try to do something different.
Uhhh, that's not a very positive prediction for the genre. 10 years is a hell of a long time in game development.Spire said:
I don't think things will stay as they are, and obviously there will be better attempts in the future, but for now I personally cannot stand the way MMOs play, and the benefits they have over other genres do not overcome these deficiencies.
speedpop said:
I think they just don't like to pay a monthly fee. You know, what with the global financial crisis and all that.
I say bring me my KotOR MMO! I just hope they put a good effort into the battle system.
To those complaining about MMO's lack of plot/story. The good ones have a lot fo lore in them. You just have to take your time and pay attention to the stuff going on around you.
The hate for MMORPGs is funny.
How many of these haters have actually played an MMORPG for longer than the trial, like you know getting to end-game and actually playing any of the real content of any MMORPG?
Hating a MMORGP just because of the genre is like hating on any RPG, FPS or Platformer just for the same reason. You have many different games, you have the ones following Everquest, Ragnarok Online, NCSoft ones which are pretty much a mixed bag, the old Star Wars Galaxies before the big screw up, Lord of the Rings Online, Final Fantasy XI and of course World of Warcraft.
All of them share many things of course, some more than others since are heavy based on them, but taken the ones I named, they are very different games at the end. The original Star Wars Galaxies is probably the best MMORPG that has been made, too bad it was doomed when SOE screwed up the combat system.
How many of these haters have actually played an MMORPG for longer than the trial, like you know getting to end-game and actually playing any of the real content of any MMORPG?
Hating a MMORGP just because of the genre is like hating on any RPG, FPS or Platformer just for the same reason. You have many different games, you have the ones following Everquest, Ragnarok Online, NCSoft ones which are pretty much a mixed bag, the old Star Wars Galaxies before the big screw up, Lord of the Rings Online, Final Fantasy XI and of course World of Warcraft.
All of them share many things of course, some more than others since are heavy based on them, but taken the ones I named, they are very different games at the end. The original Star Wars Galaxies is probably the best MMORPG that has been made, too bad it was doomed when SOE screwed up the combat system.
Flakster99
Member
Thunder Monkey said:
Nah, you're not alone. Been playing MMOG's on and off since their inception, with muds being the precursor to it all, and I would also prefer a KotOR style, non-MMO game.
I understand I am in the minority in large part thanks to WoW and it's ability over the years to draw in NEW MMOG gamers. I see such an announcement, a KotOR MMOG announcement, placating this new user-base and not one that is utterly tired of the MMOG brand - ei me.
jrricky said:
Play Guild Wars. Start with Prophecies --> Factions --> Nightfall --> Eye of the North. It has exactly what you're asking for and the battle system is quite good if I may say so.
Not sure how the community in that game is right now though. I stopped playing it a year ago but you can add henchmen/heroes to your party to help you with the quests and it's quite doable that way.
This post didnt make it any better for MMO's cause I hate run and shoot games (FPS)the same outside of the one (Metroid Prime) and two (Bioshock) and three (I hope Mirrors Edge doesnt fall prey to generic-ness).:/-Kh- said:
Oh and I have to actually 'beat' MMO's to get to the meat of accessible gameplay........
whatever the hell that means
aeolist said:
That was just a prediction for the MMOFPS sub-genre, and it was for within 10 years, not in 10 years. There are other MMO genres already breaking new ground.
I really hope the KotOR MMO is nothing like WoW. I'm really tired of the questing/raiding PvE MMO structure and I hope Bioware makes something new and fresh. I'd actually like it if they made it similiar to what SWG was supposed to be. Skill-based advancement, an intricate non-cookie cutter crafting system and a robust space mode would be amazing, assuming they're done right. I guess we'll find out tomorrow.
This will never happen in a MMO that's trying to sell more than 100,000 copies, and it's the biggest reason the genre hasn't progressed much. Everyone has to be able to play and see the entire game if they put in enough time.Spire said:
For a genre in which it is exceedingly hard to maintain a player base of over a few hundred thousand, they simply cannot afford to turn away gamers who have time but no skill.
Flakster99
Member
Spire said:
Same here, Spire. I feel the same way.
I'll be right here anticipating the announcement like everyone else, whatever it may be.
Metal Gear?!
Member
Well if they start charging people $15 a month to play White Knight Story co-op online I'll be complaining with the rest of them.speedpop said:
As it is, it looks like White Knight Story is simply adding free online coop to the single-player RPG genre where networked/online co-op has proven fun in the past (Baldur's Gate 2 and the Neverwinter Nights series on the PC).
MMOs rely not just on online co-op (NWN and Diablo and Guild Wars already do that) but a host of social features to make up for what would otherwise be a poor single-player RPG. For those who place a high value on those social features it is more than enough to make up for it. It may even be the primary draw. For those who value those social features less, it does not make up for it. I don't have to tell you which type comprises the vast majority of this forum.
jrricky said:
Uh, you can't beat an MMO. That's missing the point. FFXI is probably the closest you'll get to that, as far as I know.
Depending on your class and the people who play with you, your experience in an MMO can be radically different, even within the same game. MMOs are also made to take time, more than you could possibly do within the first month trial when you're new to the game. The most enjoyment you could probably get from a trial period is from exploration, finding out how the game ticks and what is in it, seeing the points of interest and so on. You're not equipped to be good at the game, you haven't learned how to play it yet. Trial periods are mostly teasers, enticing you to pay them money to keep playing in the game. But MMO games aren't typically games you can simply pick up for a few minutes and play. They're games which encourage you to become invested in either your character, the people you play with, or the world of the game itself... and that does take a good chunk of dedicated time.
I'm not saying I'd prefer a KOTOR MMO over a KOTOR single player game... but what I'm saying is that KOTOR could be a great setting for an MMO, and it's what we're getting regardless, nobody is making you play it. Perhaps it's a game with someone other than you in mind.
I never meant literally to 'beat' it, thats why the emphasis was put around it cause thats what I was getting from the quote I responded to. I play trials to see what the 'gameplay' and 'story' is like cause thats why I play most games and I never get that good feeling when I play them. Oh and I tried alot of MMO's. I was stuck on maple story for a week then gave it up.....Comic said:
If its an MMO its DEFINITELY not for me. Thats a good and a bad thing in a console market depending on how you look at it.
Jazzy Network
Member
Hopefully it'll be what SW Galaxies never was. Fun.
Cirekiller
Member
UO already had more then 100k subscribers.aeolist said:
Star Wars Galaxies was fun enough for a few hundred thousand people that when they fucked it up they got stuck with a 10,000 playerbase.Jazzy Network said:
To this Day Galaxies has the best Crafting Systems and Player Housing of any MMO and the skill system was great. Galaxies simply lacked developer provided goals. It was totally left to the players to make their own and that turned some people off
rainking187
Member
stuburns said:
This.
I'm just waiting for more developers with talent and a budget to break the tie between MMO and RPG. There's no reason these genres have to be attached at the hip. MMOs need a sense of progression but that doesn't mean the gameplay needs to be based on stats and random numbers. Long term progression can easily be done with anything from unlockable skills/gear(preferably sidegrades, not upgrades) to cosmetic status unlocks. Planetside was a good start but it just wasn't a fun enough game.