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Massive Fire in High Rise Apartment in London
- Thread starter superdeluxe
- Start date
It's been reported that no one on the top 3 floors survived
God, the death toll for this is going to be catastrophic.
MonorailCat
Member
I don't get it. Everything in buildings is regulated to to a ridiculous degree .. but putting highly flammable material on the outside of buildings is ok because it looks pretty?
Who fucked up here?
Are there no binding EU standards for that?
Who fucked up here?
Are there no binding EU standards for that?
cpp_is_king
Member
SlipperyFishes
Banned
The panels have material inside them that is flammable, so they literally catch fire and burst spreading the flames further.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Yep. I believe the idea is that this is offset by the outsides being fire retardant enough that the insides shouldn't set alight, while the core is lighter and thus more cost efficient for installation.
Which makes me wonder: How well are these things installed vs how they are tested?
http://www.probyn-miers.com/perspec...rnal-cladding-panels-perspective-from-the-uk/
This link has excellent information about the cladding issue in the UK, seems to be there has been concerns since the 90s about this.
Dude, phrasing. :/
Fuck, man. What a tragic loss of life. Such a horrible event
JonnyDBrit
Member
This is what I'm particularly thinking on. If there's any kind of gap between the panels, whether from how they were installed or as the result of an intense fire warping the metal, that exposes the combustible material inside. And one that's burning, the fire and spread to the rest connected in the same cladding.
Edit: Visual reference from the article. More addressing cavities, but shows the general point:
I'm not sure of the intricacies, but developers can hire their own building control experts to sign off on work, then submit a note to the council saying the work has been done to standard.
I don't understand how the profits for the developers are not directly linked with the interests of the people living in or wanting to live in the luxury buildings nearby?
That's great to hear!
This is part of the problem, there is often a lack of experience/knowledge with approved inspectors, along with confusion over how the regs ought to be applied. One of the properties we've been dealing with at work for the last few years has had a number of different approved inspectors on various projects and every one interprets the fire regs differently.
the developers don't really care about the neighbours
they were asked to create a block of flats for social housing, so they did it the cheapest possible way
Demoncarnotaur
Member
Ugh, I'm really expecting the death toll to rise.
This whole thing seems like a clusterfuck. I think what astounds me the most is we don't have better ways to rescue people from burning buildings like these - surely those people at their windows for 20+ minutes could have survived with available response tech?
This picture is haunting.
Again, it just astounds me there wasn't a chance to organize a rescue effort from the outside. The people at their windows seemed to be isolated for long periods of time.
This whole thing seems like a clusterfuck. I think what astounds me the most is we don't have better ways to rescue people from burning buildings like these - surely those people at their windows for 20+ minutes could have survived with available response tech?
This picture is haunting.
Again, it just astounds me there wasn't a chance to organize a rescue effort from the outside. The people at their windows seemed to be isolated for long periods of time.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Ugh, I'm really expecting the death toll to rise.
This whole thing seems like a clusterfuck. I think what astounds me the most is we don't have better ways to rescue people from burning buildings like these - surely those people at their windows for 20+ minutes could have survived with available response tech?
This picture is haunting.
Again, it just astounds me there wasn't a chance to organize a rescue effort from the outside. The people at their windows seemed to be isolated for long periods of time.
Unfortunately, above certain heights it just may not have been at all feasible. The highest firefighting platform London has only goes up 32 metres. So the usual protocol would be to establish a safe spot within the building as a command centre for the fire fighters, isolate the fire to a few floors, and work around it, not to get people out via windows or the like.
That wasn't possible in this case though - it started too low, and spread too fast. This is unfortunately a situation where the main methods to save lives are wholly preventive because once this got going, it was the nightmare scenario for the fire service.
Well I was referring to the reports that the flammable cladding was added after residents in the luxury flats nearby complained it was an eyesore
Definitely looks like him. Thanks for the reply.
Primary reason is efficiency. These old blocks were built with almost no insulation so they cost a fortune to heat. Wrapping them in insulated cladding is a cost effective way of reducing costs and energy consumption.
jellies_two
Member
the building itself was run by an entity that in the 70s was just local government but at some point (Blair?) got spun off into a non-profit but sexxed up corporation style entity. I don't think the spicing up of the tower was profit motive as the housing was heavily subsidized. More likely some utopian dream of modernizing housing estates wirhout really spending money. A victim of austerity programs by the public sector. (And yeah the insulation allowing cost cutting).
Demoncarnotaur
Member
Understandable.
Maybe this tragedy will lead to new tech and equipment better suited for situations like this. They may be rare, but the human life is worth the investment, especially in bigger cities where it's more likely.
I guess what's hard to wrap my head around is there was never a single rescue chance for the people on the upper floors. These risks need to be communicated with people - could they have survived if they tried to self evacuate? Odds are, it was too late. But the images of them blinking their lights, hoping for a rescue that was literally impossible is depressing and longstanding.
ferrasvansen
Member
It's heartbreaking seeing the stories and watching the videos of people stuck, really sad hearing stories of children on fire jumping from up high, parents throwing kids out of windows. I have to say the news every day is just one tragedy after another right now and it's tough to view. I only hope some of the missing turn up, but I fear the death toll will be way higher in the end. I will donate some of my gaming budget when fund is set up so many people will need a lot of help, frankly it's the least I can do.
Crowdfunders currently running:
JustGiving
- Help families of Grenfell Tower (starter: Haley Yearwood) - £332,857
- Help the residents of the burned down Grenfell Tower (Karolina Hanusova) - £247,976
- We're raising money for the families and individuals affected by the Grenfell Tower fire (Family Action) - £55,580
- Help as many people as possible in Grenfell Tower (Anass Bourdaka) - £31,315
- Weʼre raising £5,000 to help those affected by the Grenfell Tower fire (Get West London) - £8,682
- Weʼre raising £10,000 to help the victims of the Grenfell Tower fire (Will Hurst) - £5,167
- Weʼre raising £10,000 to help the families & individuals impacted by the Grenfell Tower fire in London on with urgently required supplies (AMYA UK) - £1,075
GoFundMe
- Grenfell Block Latimer Fire Appeal (Annoor Trust) - £74,902
- West London Tower Fire Victims (Shameela Islam-Zulfiqar) - £61,742
- Grenfell Tower Fire Fund (Eartha Pond) - £20,646
- GrenFell Tower Fire Fund (Charmaine Hayden) - £8,876
- Support Grenfell Tower Fire Victims (Simon Harris) - £5,118
- Grenfell Tower Emergency Relief (Westway Trust) Amazon WishList
Frankfurter
Member
Unfortunately that's national authority apparently. In Germany buildings that are taller than 22m are not allowed to have flammable materials on the outside (but apparently we are the only ones in Europe mandating that; just read an interview about this).
Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but there is little utopian thinking at the majority of housing associations of a sufficient size (as this one will be). Most HAs are more interested in profits to be derived from new build houses that only contain the minimum amount of affordable housing they can get away with. The organisation as a whole may not return money to shareholders, but they most certainly do decide executive salaries and bonuses based on financial performance.
An anecdotal source for you - a charity I used to work for had a hostel for homeless young people that got rolled into the stock of a HA and promptly turned to absolute shit after all performance metrics based around positive outcomes for the residents got ditched in favour of financial-only goals.
ferrasvansen
Member
Thanks will check them out and decide in the morning which is the best one to give too. Must be awful to lose everything you have on top of the tragedy of loved ones dying, so any help to alleviate the lost property can help the people who have family and friends focus on grieving.
Feeling emotional, just went and had a look and the building is still burning. So many people from different communities there to help out. I saw many cars packed with clothes and supplies and many people giving out free food.
I work on Portobello road and my staff managed to raise £175 which will be matched by my employers. My colleague also managed to help some kids get accomadation.
I work on Portobello road and my staff managed to raise £175 which will be matched by my employers. My colleague also managed to help some kids get accomadation.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Given the indications how well the alarms worked (or didn't), the people on the highest floors may have been doomed from the moment the fire kicked up. People towards the middle... maybe, as some did. The problem is by the time they fire was really going, there wasn't much of a safe way out. They would risk dying in the escape as much as dying holed up inside their own homes.
Daffy Duck
Member
Man the building is still on fire.....
This is just such a tragic story event, so upsetting.
I also fear it's going to get a lot worse too
This is just such a tragic story event, so upsetting.
I also fear it's going to get a lot worse too
Charles Brandon
Member
People are not at fault for wanting to live in the area, if the housing assoc wants to put dangerous cladding on their building to make it look nicer that is not the responsibility of nearby residents.
Fantastic I'm sure these people will appreciate the cash in the coming days and weeks.
Have to ask though, is the council not providing food and shelter???
Bustanen
Member
Yeah, according to sky news the fire reached top floor in 15 minutes. A literal death trap. Heads should roll for this.
Monty Mole
Member
It always annoys me so much when it's up to charities and 'the community' to provide the necessary support during a crisis in a first world country. It shouldn't be like this.
I'm feeling so emotional tonight having seen the footage and heard the stories. It's the stuff of nightmares and I can't stop thinking about all those poor people trapped. And that Facebook live video.. so upsetting.
Whenever I'm staying in a hotel and the fire alarm sounds (this has happen a lot of times to me), I'm always really relaxed about it and stroll down after gathering my things, thinking that any fire would take ages to spread. Well I'm a fucking idiot and this is a massive wake up call.. likely for an awful lot of people.
Borough of Kensington and Chelsea has the highest number of empty homes in London, and they've only housed 44 families so far. Makes you feel sick doesn't it?
I don't understand, can they not just put people in hotels for the time being?
Monty Mole
Member
Sadly those empty properties are all owned by rich Russians! And yeah it's sickening.
Apparently the cladding was put on the building because local wealthy residents were upset the high rises were ugly.
Good grief..
GHG
Member
I can just see it now. "It's such an eyesore, it ruins my view when I do Pilates in my back garden at 6 in the morning".
Monty Mole
Member
Sadly this is a story about class as much as it is about fire safety.
The refurbishment money doesn't get spent on improved fire safety and suppression systems. It gets spent on cladding to improve the view for the people who don't live in them.
The refurbishment money doesn't get spent on improved fire safety and suppression systems. It gets spent on cladding to improve the view for the people who don't live in them.
Hotel places are going to people of sufficient "immediate priority", i.e. young children, the elderly and vulnerable adults. Everyone else gets a blanket and some floor space at the local sports centre.
Sadly I think the response to these unfortunate people's plight might not be all that it should be.
frankie_baby
Member
Empty houses should become forfeit to the local council, would sort homelessness in minutes
Monty Mole
Member
I agree, but then London house prices would quickly decrease and all our poor politicians may end up in negative equity.
I'm sure some complained but this is far from the truth. The cladding acts primarily as insulation for the building, whilst also modernising it's aesthetics. If it were just metal sheet cladding it obviously wouldn't have been flammable.
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