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May 7th | UK General Election 2015 OT - Please go vote!

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Jezbollah

Member
Labour announces they want to abolish zero hour contracts and 100 business leaders say Milliband is bad for business.

They're not even trying to be subtle about how greedy they are and how little they care about their workers.

To be fair, Labour have not stated they wish to get rid of Zero hours contracts - they have stated that they want to see the exploitation of zero hours contracts. For example, anyone with a pattern of "regular hours" in the period of 12 weeks would be entitled to a fixed hours contract for those hours

(^^ from Chuck Umannaa - interview on 5Live this morning)
 
Again, I put it to you all, were you so dismissive when business leaders wrote open letters to back labour during the Blair years? Where they just rich people looking out for their interests then?

Personally I just find them a bit dull. Hardly major front page news, that's all.
 

kmag

Member
What's amusing about that "business leaders" letter, it's that it's essentially a who's who of tax dodging.

Gerald Corbett, Philip Green...
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Scotland, Maybe?

I agree, though. We shouldn't trust business leaders. I don't really trust people with glasses either, fucking do-gooders.

It's more that they're not really any more trust-worthy than any other interested stakeholder. By the same logic, we should immediately take very seriously the words of 100 union leaders coming out and saying the Conservatives will damage workers' rights or whatever.

The arguments they make can be examined on their own merits; they should stand or fall regardless of who is saying them. Given the arguments are less than convincing, what reason do I have to care?
 
Some interesting economists views in this BBC article today.

Among those who disagreed strongly that austerity had been a good thing, Oxford University's Simon Wren-Lewis (never shy to express an opinion) asked if the question was "a joke", adding that "the only interesting question is how much GDP has been lost as a result of austerity" (which he thinks could be as much as 10% of national income).
John Van Reenen of the LSE, who also disagreed with austerity, said "UK GDP is about 15% below where we would have expected on pre-crisis trends... Premature austerity has damaged UK welfare and, as I and others argued at the time, delaying consolidation would have left the UK in a much stronger position than it is today."
But Sir Charlie Bean, former deputy governor of the Bank of England, neither agreed or disagreed. And he said: "The UK consolidation was never undertaken in the belief that it would boost demand directly, but rather that it would reduce the likelihood of a loss of market confidence in the UK government's economic policies, which - had it occurred - would have necessitated a much sharper consolidation."
By contrast, Patrick Minford, of Cardiff Business School, agreed with the austerity policy, He argued: "The coalition government has managed to set a definite direction towards deficit reduction without moving so rapidly as to destabilise the economy. Essentially it has halved the deficit/GDP ratio in this Parliament. In spite of this correction and the reduction in public sector jobs, employment has grown strongly and recovery has been established."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32143952
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Minford taught me at school and Wren-Lewis is one of my lecturers. :x Given I once recall a rather drunken Minford saying if we taxed the poor heavily we'd solve poverty because they'd have a larger incentive not to be poor, I'm going to go with Wren-Lewis.
 
It's more that they're not really any more trust-worthy than any other interested stakeholder. By the same logic, we should immediately take very seriously the words of 100 union leaders coming out and saying the Conservatives will damage workers' rights or whatever.

The arguments they make can be examined on their own merits; they should stand or fall regardless of who is saying them. Given the arguments are less than convincing, what reason do I have to care?

Indeedio, I drew the same comparison to unions myself a few posts up. My point was that coming from a union doesn't make it untrue any more than it makes its true. It's not an appeal to authority to suggests that the people that run large businesses might simultaneously have a) a vested interested and b) a rare degree of first hand familiarity with the impact of certain policies, since they'll be the ones actually making the decisions (anymore than Union leaders might have first hand familiarity of the impact of policy X on workers). As with all things, it shouldn't be taken as gospel and their vested interests should be taken into account - Save The Whales aren't the only people you should ask when fact finding for fisheries policy, because they chiefly care about whales, not all the other stuff. But, when it comes to whales, they probably know what they're talking about, you know?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Sure, right, and if they published a draft paper on the economic consequences of variant policies following the election I might read it in that light. As it was, they just signed a four paragraph letter. They're not even particularly insightful or accurate paragraphs. That's pretty much the definition of appeal to authority.
 
Marginally intersting pitch-er from Yougov:

CBgBLFBW4AApp3k.png:large
 

tomtom94

Member
Minford taught me at school and Wren-Lewis is one of my lecturers. :x Given I once recall a rather drunken Minford saying if we taxed the poor heavily we'd solve poverty because they'd have a larger incentive not to be poor, I'm going to go with Wren-Lewis.

Why am I reminded of the Mitchell and Webb "Kill The Poor" sketch?
 

Mr Cola

Brothas With Attitude / The Wrong Brotha to Fuck Wit / Die Brotha Die / Brothas in Paris
Im echoing Andrew Neils frustration, im undecided but in most of all the clips I watch from any side no-one answers the question, everyone stays on script, hell Osbourne literally repeated himself twice during his talk about the letter businesses signed. He started talking about the letter, mentioned the businesses, reporter asked him a question and he went back and read the same script all over again.
 
Im echoing Andrew Neils frustration, im undecided but in most of all the clips I watch from any side no-one answers the question, everyone stays on script, hell Osbourne literally repeated himself twice during his talk about the letter businesses signed. He started talking about the letter, mentioned the businesses, reporter asked him a question and he went back and read the same script all over again.

It's a shame, because Osborne is actually kind of a badass when he does some real talk. One of my favs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYye0zZ3fH4

Edit: Just seen this tweeted...

Ipsos Mori polls FTSE 100 leaders every year: now 86% of them are Tory supporters. Under Blair 55% backed Labour.

I assume that Blair figure is the high water mark.
 

Moze

Banned
UKIP relies on the middle class media feeding the lower classes with anti immigration propaganda. As long as that still happens, the lower classes will support UKIP. I don't see them going the way of the BNP anytime soon.
 

Jackpot

Banned
UKIP candidate who quit over "kidnap Obama" comments managed to fit a race-bashing swipe in his response. Where do they find these people who are so obsessed with foreigners it infects their every view?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ames-informers-for-his-downfall-10146485.html

“I see that the TROLLS are out again, the INFORMERS and the HATERS out to make mischief, because they are too COWARDLY to speak and instead like the vermin they are, ooze out of the shadows to get someone else to do their dirty work before slithering back under their rocks to hide from the fallout,” he wrote.

“As for the sneak, the squealer, the ‘informer’, the parasitic tapeworm infesting the bowel of society … you know who you are, the one who’d eagerly shop his grandmother for a tin of jam, just like the Poles did to the Jews, I’d like to think that what goes around comes around, kharma if you like.”

"not my fault for making the comments, it's yours for telling people about them"
 
UKIP relies on the middle class media feeding the lower classes with anti immigration propaganda. As long as that still happens, the lower classes will support UKIP. I don't see them going the way of the BNP anytime soon.

Depends if Farage wins Thanet. If not, they're fucked I think.

I mean, he loses every time but with this groundswell if he fails to win he'll go (he's said as much) and if we can make a rough Farage = Salmond comparison of a big personality leading a somewhat ideologically diverse party with a single unifying policy, UKIP don't have anyone even remotely close to the talent of Sturgeon waiting in the wings.
 
Don't know if this was posted, but UKIP sure are going batshit insane. I know a lot of people who were voting UKIP have abandoned them over the MEP expenses scandal, but moreover due to them becoming more logical as they arroroach the election... Still, I imagine this wont do them any favours.

BBC said:
UKIP: School children 'brainwashed' with pro-EU propaganda

Young people should not be allowed to vote in any future referendum on the EU because they are brainwashed in schools with pro-EU propaganda, UKIP has said.

It comes after reports the Lib Dems, if in coalition again, would only agree to a poll if 16 and 17-year-olds and UK-based EU residents could take part.

But UKIP economic spokesman Patrick O'Flynn said young people were more likely to be pro-European.

More here
 

suedester

Banned
UKIP relies on the middle class media feeding the lower classes with anti immigration propaganda. As long as that still happens, the lower classes will support UKIP. I don't see them going the way of the BNP anytime soon.

True, but their support is down a good 5% since the end of last year. Can only be a good sign for the Tories.
 
Uh-oh, Spaghettio!

Ashcroft Lib Dem marginal poll suggests Clegg's heading back to the EU Parliament.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBgFIYjUsAAuQpo.jpg:large[/ img][/QUOTE]

Not just yet:

2015 Labour voters (who voted for someone in 2010): 165
2015 Lib Dem voters (who voted for someone in 2010): 185

With people who actually voted in 2010 the Lib Dems are ahead. Labour are winning with younger people and other non-voters. Clegg will probably retain Hallam.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Carswell is such an odd fit for UKIP, he is a level headed, intelligent bloke. I am sure if Fararge loses Thanet Carswell will launch a leadership challenge.
 

Jezbollah

Member
I just saw that the Conservative candidate for Thanet South was formally the deputy leader of UKIP before he defected to the Tories back in 2005. Spicy.
 
Has there been any polling on Thanet?

My instinct is that this could be Ukip's general election peak - possibly hitting a new high at the next EU election but from there, possibly downhill. I just get the feeling that once the fuss has passed, and it feels it has already a bit, and a few MPs are shown to just be useless, their claim to be anti-establishment will be even more off than it is now.
 

Matt_

World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
UKIP relies on the middle class media feeding the lower classes with anti immigration propaganda. As long as that still happens, the lower classes will support UKIP. I don't see them going the way of the BNP anytime soon.

Wow..the snotty, condescending left wing attitude is strong with this one.

I've come to the conclusion that the real reason the left hate UKIP so much and puts them into such a moral panic is because they know its their bastard offspring.

If uncontrolled mass immigration hadn't marginalised and alienated many white working class communities up and down the land in the last decade, due to Labour policies, the loonies in UKIP would never have the support they now enjoy.

You reap what you sow.
 

Nicktendo86

Member
Debunking some zero hour myths

The statistics do not and cannot show an “epidemic” in zero hours contracts. Comparisons of the number of people on zero hours contracts over time are not reliable, as the Office for National Statistics makes clear.
The statistics do show that 66% of people on zero hours contracts fall in the category of ‘does not want more hours’. The statistics alone do not show that everybody on zero hours contracts, or even a majority of them, are dissatisfied.
The latest ONS release shows that people whose main employment is a zero hours contract account for 2.3% of people in employment. This is 1 in 43 – or to a round number 1 in 40, not 1 in 50 as the Conservative Party has said.

https://fullfact.org/factcheck/economy/zero_hour_contracts_facts-41165
 

MrChom

Member
I feel like the OP was given a much needed boost for the OT titles today when our illustrious leader visited a brewing establishment in the city of Wolverhampton.

CBgoJ9HUgAA9h3a.jpg


I may have been less than kind abut this photo on social media already
 

Goodlife

Member
If uncontrolled mass immigration hadn't marginalised and alienated many white working class communities up and down the land in the last decade, due to Labour policies, the loonies in UKIP would never have the support they now enjoy..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24813467

I"mmigrants to the UK since 2000 have made a "substantial" contribution to public finances, a report says.

The authors said rather than being a "drain", their contribution had been "remarkably strong"."
 

Moze

Banned
Wow..the snotty, condescending left wing attitude is strong with this one.

I've come to the conclusion that the real reason the left hate UKIP so much and puts them into such a moral panic is because they know its their bastard offspring.

If uncontrolled mass immigration hadn't marginalised and alienated many white working class communities up and down the land in the last decade, due to Labour policies, the loonies in UKIP would never have the support they now enjoy.

You reap what you sow.

Lower class people do genuinely hate eastern europeans with a burning passion, but it is nothing to do with them taking our jobs/houses or whatever nonsense some people think. It is all to do with the lower class community constantly being fed anti immigration propaganda by the middle class media. They are constantly told to hate them. It makes no sense for the lower classes to hate eastern europeans. A lower class British person will have more in common with a lower class eastern european than they will with a middle class British person. The elites love seeing the lower class communities fight among themselves.
 

Faddy

Banned
Don't know if this was posted, but UKIP sure are going batshit insane. I know a lot of people who were voting UKIP have abandoned them over the MEP expenses scandal, but moreover due to them becoming more logical as they arroroach the election... Still, I imagine this wont do them any favours.



More here

A Labour MP has accused the SNP of brain washing school kids in Scotland as well. Michael McCann, MP for East Kilbride.

Posted in full because it has been deleted from Labour's website but still available via Google Cache.

SNP Infiltrate Local Schools to Manipulate Pupils
Posted on March 23, 2015 by Gordon Paterson

SNP activists have infiltrated local schools in a bid to brainwash pupils into supporting their political brand. This is among the latest revelations to emerge about the party’s secret tactics for the forthcoming general election. At a meeting for party members held recently at the Murray Bar, a delegate told those assembled: “Sterling work was being done by the SNP youth wing in all local schools.

“The meetings were packed out at lunchtimes and this would be intensified during the election period as pester power from children could help persuade their parents to vote SNP.”

The speaker went on to reveal that more teachers were getting converted to the cause, adding: “We must remember that the youth are tomorrow’s voters and we should get them whilst they are young.” Next a woman who claimed to be a teacher stood up and reported that in her school they had been showing children recordings of Westminster which, she says, the children found “boring”. She added: “This process helps to put children off Westminster.”

Local MP, Michael McCann, has now written to Lindsay Freeland, the Chief Executive of South Lanarkshire Council, asking him to investigate what he describes as a deeply disturbing, sinister and worrying report. He said: “I am concerned and shocked by this development, as I am sure many parents will be too. “People may remember that Linda Fabiani was criticised for befriending youngsters on Facebook, it doesn’t take much imagination to join up the dots on their plans.

“It is surely wrong for any political party to attempt to take advantage of impressionable children in this way. “I would therefore call upon South Lanarkshire Council to carry out an investigation to ensure that children are not being manipulated in this way, that no education facilities are being used for political purposes and that employees of the council are not misusing their positions. “I would also like to establish if parental approval had been sought or given for their children to attend these political rallies.

At the same meeting SNP activists also reported on their plans to target the elderly. One party member stated: “They are specifically targeting the elderly, especially in East Kilbride as the population is aged. This is the group that they missed in the referendum and every effort will be made to mobilise them in person as this group cannot readily be reached on social media. “We will be targeting tower blocks, churches and care homes specifically for this purpose.”

Michael added: “I have written a separate letter to the Chief Executive expressing my grave worries about these tactics. “Political parties are entitled to contact people through legitimate means but I am concerned by the tone of their statements and their determination to target care homes. “Elderly people in care homes are often vulnerable with multiple conditions and I want his reassurance that South Lanarkshire Council staff will be vigilant to ensure that nobody is harassed by the SNP and their supporters. “I will also be writing a letter to all of the private care homes in the constituency to make them aware of this development.

“I know that the SNP don’t have any policies for a UK election but I have to confess that I am still shocked at their behaviour. “But what everyone must also remember is this; while all of these matters were being discussed Linda Fabiani and their parliamentary candidate were both present and they didn’t take exception to any of this strategy. “This isn’t what politics should be about and I abhor their tactics.”

At the same meeting, in the Murray Bar on Thursday the 12th of March, SNP activists pledged to tarnish the reputation of local MP Michael McCann. Those attending were asked to prove their party credentials by being photographed holding an SNP sign.
The photographer was SNP MSP Linda Fabiani’s partner, Duncan McLean, who failed to secure the SNP nomination to contest the East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow parliamentary seat.

Once that cursory ID check had been carried out, it was time to aim their vitriol at Michael McCann. One party member stated: “We will be dishing the dirt on him during the campaign.”

Those present were informed by the speaker that this attack on the MP will not come from the SNP itself, in order to maintain the illusion that the party are “the good guys”.
Instead, it was revealed that the Green Party or SSP, were being lined up to do the dirty deed.

Another speaker told the assembled activists that they are carrying out an investigation into common land that had been gifted to the people of East Kilbride and had now, he suggested, gone missing.
He claimed that this investigation will provide damning evidence of wrong doing by the Labour-controlled South Lanarkshire Council and that in turn would drag Michael into the concocted plot to tarnish the MP’s name.

Reacting to these revelations Michael said: “I find this utterly bizarre, I haven’t been an elected member of the council for nearly five years.
“That said if the SNP have evidence of any wrong doing then they should immediately hand that evidence over to the proper authorities.
“I have been a politician in East Kilbride for many years now and my record is transparent and unblemished.
“However, it is clear that the SNP have a very simple plan. They have no ideas to create jobs, redistribute wealth or solve the problems of our struggling health service, so in order to camouflage that enormous policy deficit they intend to use a dirty tricks campaign.
“I abhor their tactics and I will be focusing on the issues that will improve people lives.”
 
Wow..the snotty, condescending left wing attitude is strong with this one.

I've come to the conclusion that the real reason the left hate UKIP so much and puts them into such a moral panic is because they know its their bastard offspring.

If uncontrolled mass immigration hadn't marginalised and alienated many white working class communities up and down the land in the last decade, due to Labour policies, the loonies in UKIP would never have the support they now enjoy.

You reap what you sow.

Your assumption that UKIP's policies appeal to the lower classes based upon mass immigration -and by this I mean those that work- is incorrect. Immigration, to most, isn't merely a problem of foreign employment, but broader problems (to them) of a welfare state. To workers on a low income who, for various reasons, are in a worse position now than they have been previously, they don't see a differentiation between families of British welfare claimants or immigrant ones - all they care about is that they are working, and others are not and are receiving a slew of benefits that workers do not receive, which is a pretty right wing ideology to me.
 
Your assumption that UKIP's policies appeal to the lower classes based upon mass immigration -and by this I mean those that work- is incorrect..

UKIP never had anything but a handful of percentage points support until the white working class got on board, its they who have pushed their support into double figures.
 

Maledict

Member
My other half is Scottish, and he's always maintained that Scottish education places a bizarre emphasis on Scotland pre union. 10 years ago he was complaining they spent longer learning about traditional Scottish croft houses than Scotland's role in the industrial revolution.

He's always maintained, well before the recent rise of the SNP and the independence vote, that the education system seems oddly geared around a pro-independence stance.
 
He's always maintained, well before the recent rise of the SNP and the independence vote, that the education system seems oddly geared around a pro-independence stance.

That's because teachers tend to be professional, middle class and left wing, that's true throughout the UK and will always push their own ideas which tend to be anti establishment.

Independence is about as anti establishment as you could get.
 

MrChom

Member
Your assumption that UKIP's policies appeal to the lower classes based upon mass immigration -and by this I mean those that work- is incorrect. Immigration, to most, isn't merely a problem of foreign employment, but broader problems (to them) of a welfare state. To workers on a low income who, for various reasons, are in a worse position now than they have been previously, they don't see a differentiation between families of British welfare claimants or immigrant ones - all they care about is that they are working, and others are not and are receiving a slew of benefits that workers do not receive, which is a pretty right wing ideology to me.

UKIP's policies are more than just anti-immigration, though, they're a hark back to a Britain that never existed. It's all a sort of mish mash of Halcyon bygone stuff...

Stronger ties to The Commonwealth (Or the "we really miss a good bit of Empire" club), a stand back from the EU, and immigration probably about 3rd? I half expect UKIP to ask what was wrong with pounds shillings and pence, complain about its chillblains, and then head to bed with a cocoa.

It's a party that's designed ground up to attack Labour's traditional base with a "taking our jobs" rhetoric, some hardcore Tories (with Euroscepticism, and a small government message), politically disaffected elderly people (Farage isn't seen without a pint in his hand, and plays the old-school charisma for all it's worth).

Personally I think it plays into a very nasty section of British politics too, one that says "Why should I pay for benefits, the NHS, or the education system, I have no stake there", they're basically a party as far removed from my own opinions as you can physically get....
 
Uh-oh, Spaghettio!

Ashcroft Lib Dem marginal poll suggests Clegg's heading back to the EU Parliament.

CBgFIYjUsAAuQpo.jpg:large

Heh, a bloke from my course at Uni is the UKIP candidate for Sheffield Hallam. I think he knows he hasn't got a chance, but its still a chance to network, integrate himself into the party and do some campaigning for it.
 

Faddy

Banned
My other half is Scottish, and he's always maintained that Scottish education places a bizarre emphasis on Scotland pre union. 10 years ago he was complaining they spent longer learning about traditional Scottish croft houses than Scotland's role in the industrial revolution.

He's always maintained, well before the recent rise of the SNP and the independence vote, that the education system seems oddly geared around a pro-independence stance.

Well that is just wrong. For a start croft houses and the Highland Clearances are well after the Act of Union. Moving people from farming into towns and cities was in the 18th and 19th century. Currently, at National 5 (approximately equivalent to GCSE) a third of the course is on Scotland (and not necessarily pre union), a third is on Britain and Ireland and a third on World History. For Highers half of the course is for British History and half for world history. Schools can choose which units they choose to study within those categories.

The only other Scottish restriction I can remember is that one study in Higher English must be a Scottish work, although that was years ago when I was at school.

If anyone is obsessed with Pre Union history it is the English GCSE which focusses 2/3rds of the course on the period before the Act of Unions.
 
A Labour MP has accused the SNP of brain washing school kids in Scotlandas well. Michael McCann, MP for East Kilbride.

Posted in full because it has been deleted from Labour's website but still available via Google Cache.


No shit, And Labour are more pissed off that the SNP are using their old tricks against them.
 
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