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[Tak3n]

a fight is on the way, that is for sure

Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says that renegotiation will hinge on free movement of people from the EU to the UK. "The touchstone for renegotiation will be the free movement of people. It's one of the four freedoms of the European Union, and if the EU is willing to give ground on that, it will show that it's willing to consider a fundamental reform, rather than just tinkering at the edges."

 

[kitch9]

a fight is on the way, that is for sure

It needs reform, maybe just to allow the blocking of claiming tax credits for new immigrants. To be fair I don't know if that is possible now or not.

It should slow them down wanting undercut to gain any employment and start claiming it.

 

[kitch9]

It sounds like they gave up on being the largest party some time ago but it seems they were convinced they would be in a position to govern, I can't help but get the impression Miliband surrounded himself in a bubble of yes men who were caught completely off guard by the exit poll.

I still feel there will be so much to be written about this election, what a fascinating last few weeks.

I don't understand why they have to go full retard and deny the exit polls are right?

Nutters were talking about eating hats and stuff. Just made them look like complete bellends.

 

[Maledict]

I don't understand why they have to go full retard and deny the exit polls are right?

Nutters were talking about eating hats and stuff. Just made them look like complete bellends.

To be fair, that was almost *everyone's* opinions - including the conservatives when they were first released. Tory Central command might have thought they were accurate but they didn't tell the frontline - even the conservatives on television were saying it was more optimistic than their understanding of the election.

 

[CyclopsRock]

This is the key bit from the NS article:

But the heterogeneous character of the party’s defeat precludes easy definition. It lost votes to different groups in different regions for different reasons. Anti-­austerity Scots, anti-immigration northerners and fiscally conservative southerners all turned against Labour. It is hard to appease one group without simultaneously alienating another. MPs are able to cite whichever results suit their ideological predilection. The anti-austerity and anti-Trident left points to the calamity in Scotland. The anti-immigration and Eurosceptic right warns of a similar fate in the north (where Ukip finished second in 19 seats). The Blair-type reformists cite the south (where the party lost seats to the Tories) and appeal for fiscal restraint and an embrace of enterprise.

What the hell to do?

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Having thought about this, though I have to give it to the tories and their supporters for shocking us all, I do think it's bad for democracy that the main opposition party may not even have the potential to challenge the government in parliament for the next decade, if not more, without lurching even further to the right.

I understand that voters already aligned to the right are cheering the downfall of labour, but I do think it's god to challenge views regardless of political orientation. Any government that runs unopposed is going to lurch too far one way or the other (be it right or left wing).

 

[sheepishlord]

Frankie Boyle's election autopsy is on the bbc iplayer if anybody is interested.

Decent watch, Frankie asks the question is Britain racist at it's core and then brings out Akala. Thats like asking the question "Do you want to play Pokemon cards?" and then bringing out Charizard. Should have been on telly.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is the key bit from the NS article:



What the hell to do?

I think this is worrying not just for Labour but for the country as a whole, though. What that's telling you is that the United Kingdom is becoming a more divided country - the North, the South, the Midlands, London, and Scotland are all moving in very different directions politically, and I think Labour as the more centrist party, at least over the last two decades, is suffering the most from that because there simply is no centre that is uniform across the United Kingdom.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think this is worrying not just for Labour but for the country as a whole, though. What that's telling you is that the United Kingdom is becoming a more divided country - the North, the South, the Midlands, London, and Scotland are all moving in very different directions politically, and I think Labour as the more centrist party, at least over the last two decades, is suffering the most from that because there simply is no centre that is uniform across the United Kingdom.

Maybe, but IMO the major outlier is Scotland, because - as I think you've pointed out before - whilst their rhetoric is clearly anti-austerity, it's too simplistic to label them simply as "left wing"; the whole nationalism or, if we want to be a bit kinder, "for Scotland" element of their identity appears, to me, to be a more significant one than their economic one (in the same way that, say, votes in Northern Ireland are less about economic perspective and more about other, mad shit). If you take Scotland out of the equation - which isn't entirely fair, since clearly they are more to the left of England - then the other bits can only really be appeased by moving to the right. Add this to the fact that Labour only wins when it moves to the right and that Blair would still have won a majority in 1997 and 2001 even if he'd had the same Scottish results as Ed, and I think it's pretty obvious the direction the party should go in if they want electoral success. THAT SAID it's never good to have a big chunk of the country unrepresented, but who knows, we may see the Greens become a sort of UKIP of the left (complete with natty mental shite).

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Maybe, but IMO the major outlier is Scotland, because - as I think you've pointed out before - whilst their rhetoric is clearly anti-austerity, it's too simplistic to label them simply as "left wing"; the whole nationalism or, if we want to be a bit kinder, "for Scotland" element of their identity appears, to me, to be a more significant one than their economic one (in the same way that, say, votes in Northern Ireland are less about economic perspective and more about other, mad shit). If you take Scotland out of the equation - which isn't entirely fair, since clearly they are more to the left of England - then the other bits can only really be appeased by moving to the right. Add this to the fact that Labour only wins when it moves to the right and that Blair would still have won a majority in 1997 and 2001 even if he'd had the same Scottish results as Ed, and I think it's pretty obvious the direction the party should go in if they want electoral success. THAT SAID it's never good to have a big chunk of the country unrepresented, but who knows, we may see the Greens become a sort of UKIP of the left (complete with natty mental shite).

I don't think you're right. In the North, Labour has done progressively better by becoming more leftwing. The same is also true in London. It's only in the Midlands, Wales and the South this trend doesn't hold true. I mean, obviously the North and London don't matter for Labour wins because they win them anyway, but the point in general about the country as a whole moving in different directions (not just economically, but also nationally e.g. Scotland) still holds true.

 

[War Peaceman]

But Labour weren't left wing in the election! Don't believe that blairite shite.

Many of their individual economic ideas were widely popular, but not enough trusted they'd be able to do it.

The message is right but the delivery mechanism was all wrong. If labour get their shit together and be coherent they are far from in trouble.

 

[Nicktendo86]

That's the problem though, you may feel there was nothing wrong with messaging or the policy but a lot if people evidently do. It wasn't just an issue of the packaging but the collective whole was incoherent.

Rent controls and energy price fixing are quite left wing ideas, the mansion tax may have been a popular idea on its own but it added to the overall impression that the party is anti aspiration.

It really seems that many parts of labour have been in an echo chamber of only listening to themselves and ignoring what majority in the country actually wants. I think labour need to have a serious look at itself and come to some conclusion of what the actual point of it is.

The next few years will be fascinating.

 

[War Peaceman]

That's the problem though, you may feel there was nothing wrong with messaging or the policy but a lot if people evidently do. It wasn't just an issue of the packaging but the collective whole was incoherent.

Rent controls and energy price fixing are quite left wing ideas, the mansion tax may have been a popular idea on its own but it added to the overall impression that the party is anti aspiration.

It really seems that many parts of labour have been in an echo chamber of only listening to themselves and ignoring what majority in the country actually wants. I think labour need to have a serious look at itself and come to some conclusion of what the actual point of it is.

The next few years will be fascinating.

I don't think those things are popular the Tories do(according to inside sources) and polling does. But ideas don't exist in a vacuum. Competence and confidence are paramount. By contrast, a lot of Tory ideas when polled likely aren't popular(reducing taxation on rich) but they are generally trusted to be competent.

 

[Walshicus]

Maybe, but IMO the major outlier is Scotland, because - as I think you've pointed out before - whilst their rhetoric is clearly anti-austerity, it's too simplistic to label them simply as "left wing"; the whole nationalism or, if we want to be a bit kinder, "for Scotland" element of their identity appears, to me, to be a more significant one than their economic one (in the same way that, say, votes in Northern Ireland are less about economic perspective and more about other, mad shit). If you take Scotland out of the equation - which isn't entirely fair, since clearly they are more to the left of England - then the other bits can only really be appeased by moving to the right. Add this to the fact that Labour only wins when it moves to the right and that Blair would still have won a majority in 1997 and 2001 even if he'd had the same Scottish results as Ed, and I think it's pretty obvious the direction the party should go in if they want electoral success. THAT SAID it's never good to have a big chunk of the country unrepresented, but who knows, we may see the Greens become a sort of UKIP of the left (complete with natty mental shite).

What's the point in having two Tory Parties?

 

[CyclopsRock]

What's the point in having two Tory Parties?

Well apparantly if you have one Tory party and one Labour party, they'll just vote for the Tory party anyway. This way there's a sort of broad dialectical approach where what is considered "the center" is constantly moving.

 

[Tak3n]

Prime Minister David Cameron is to renew his vow to boost NHS funding and create a "seven-day" health service in his first major post-election speech

he has zero chance of getting 7 day GP's services, you can thank Labour for that....

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I wonder If other tv news stations and papers were like the BBC coverage I saw that basically consisted of:

- Ooooh, Davie Cameron, Oooh Davie. Mmmm.

- Ugh Ed silly billy Band. Ugh.

- Ed silly billy band said this. Ugh. Bleugh. David Cameron on the other hand, said this, this and this. Mm Davie C. Mmm.

I remember watching and thinking "okay.....it's not happening is it?".

 

[PJV3]

The Tory polling machine had Labour ahead during the early stage of the election, then the SNP stuff happened, that and the Libdem's who lost left wing support 5 years ago started talking about working with labour, lost tory voters and disintegrated.

Labour shouldn't be listening to tories or the right wing press about anything. If that means 10/25 years of tory rule then that's democracy.

 

[Tak3n]

There you go, Nurse union comes out and says they will consider strike action if their T+C's are changed

 

[kmag]

he has zero chance of getting 7 day GP's services, you can thank Labour for that....

He also has zero chance, because it'd cost a fortune even if the GP's had a sensible contract (which they don't).

 

[DBT85]

A question that struck me last night.

I know that the SNP is supposed to be all about Scotland, and that really, people in the UK should be voting Labour if they want to support the SNP.

But with the slight mess that's going on inside Labour right now and the current success that the SNP has found, if in 3 years or so the SNP can see that things might not be much better for Labour do you think they'll start fielding candidates in English or Welsh seats?

Or do you think they'll stay out of it and just try and lock Labour out of Scotland entirely?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But Labour weren't left wing in the election! Don't believe that blairite shite.

Many of their individual economic ideas were widely popular, but not enough trusted they'd be able to do it.

The message is right but the delivery mechanism was all wrong. If labour get their shit together and be coherent they are far from in trouble.

They were more leftwing then they've been at any point since at least 1987. I'm not going to sit and argue shit about what the definition of leftwing is and when a party is 'truly' leftwing, but in relative terms Miliband's policies were clearly more in favour of government intervention in the economy than Blair's or late Kinnock's or Brown's and so the party was, at the very least, more leftwing. It didn't pay off. In fact, the Greens got more votes at this election than any other, so in fact it seems to have had negative rewards.

 

[kitch9]

I wonder If other tv news stations and papers were like the BBC coverage I saw that basically consisted of:

- Ooooh, Davie Cameron, Oooh Davie. Mmmm.

- Ugh Ed silly billy Band. Ugh.

- Ed silly billy band said this. Ugh. Bleugh. David Cameron on the other hand, said this, this and this. Mm Davie C. Mmm.

I remember watching and thinking "okay.....it's not happening is it?".

You sure you weren't watching Cbeebies?

 

[Jackpot]

A question that struck me last night.

I know that the SNP is supposed to be all about Scotland, and that really, people in the UK should be voting Labour if they want to support the SNP.

But with the slight mess that's going on inside Labour right now and the current success that the SNP has found, if in 3 years or so the SNP can see that things might not be much better for Labour do you think they'll start fielding candidates in English or Welsh seats?

Or do you think they'll stay out of it and just try and lock Labour out of Scotland entirely?

Is there anything to stop the SNP from forming a southern branch that has the same policies, aside from the uphill struggle to convince people they're not Scottish centric?

 

[CyclopsRock]

You sure you weren't watching Cbeebies?

tbf their editorialising was pretty awful. The whole cast of Balamory were wearing Blue Rosettes for the entire first week of May.

 

[FlammableD]

Is there anything to stop the SNP from forming a southern branch that has the same policies, aside from the uphill struggle to convince people they're not Scottish centric?

No, but I can't see what the SNP would gain from it tbh. I'd vote SNP in a heartbeat though.

 

[DBT85]

No, but I can't see what the SNP would gain from it tbh. I'd vote SNP in a heartbeat though.

And your comment is exactly why I wondered.

 

[FlammableD]

And your comment is exactly why I wondered.

Yeah. They run the risk of being "humiliated" by not doing well, there's the Scottish branding issue, the extra cost, and even some of the extremists among their voters who might take it as a betrayal. I'm sure there's people that would vote for them but it's a risk, and I think they're being fairly risk averse at the moment. Besides, the aim is still independence, what happens then?

 

[Uzzy]

A question that struck me last night.

I know that the SNP is supposed to be all about Scotland, and that really, people in the UK should be voting Labour if they want to support the SNP.

But with the slight mess that's going on inside Labour right now and the current success that the SNP has found, if in 3 years or so the SNP can see that things might not be much better for Labour do you think they'll start fielding candidates in English or Welsh seats?

Or do you think they'll stay out of it and just try and lock Labour out of Scotland entirely?

What's in it for the SNP? Their entire raison d'etre is Scottish independence, so putting candidates up for office outside Scotland runs pretty contrary to that. I'd certainly welcome them abandoning their efforts to break up my country though.

 

[FlammableD]

I'd certainly welcome them abandoning their efforts to break up my country though.

Sorry bout that.

 

[Jonnax]

Frankie Boyle made bit of a show about the election up on iPlayer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy

I thought it was pretty entertaining.

 

[DBT85]

Yeah. They run the risk of being "humiliated" by not doing well, there's the Scottish branding issue, the extra cost, and even some of the extremists among their voters who might take it as a betrayal. I'm sure there's people that would vote for them but it's a risk, and I think they're being fairly risk averse at the moment. Besides, the aim is still independence, what happens then?

What's in it for the SNP? Their entire raison d'etre is Scottish independence, so putting candidates up for office outside Scotland runs pretty contrary to that. I'd certainly welcome them abandoning their efforts to break up my country though.

Well, If they get what they want in this cycle and don't force another referendum, and as I said, in 3 years or so it looks like they could get more seats by impinging on Labour territory just under the guise of good governance more than for Scottish issues, they'd have even more power in the commons to get the things they want.

I'm just wondering what their thinking is going to be in a few years if Labour don't get a strong enough candidate sorted. If the world is going to end in the next 5 years as the internet tells us, Sturgeon and the SNP might be in a good spot to nick even more Labour votes, but they can only get them if they try. I can't imagine the Greens on UKIP taking those seats, and the Lib Dems might be out of the game for a decade, but again it might all depend on what Labour do in the next 3 years or so.

Sturgeon has said they won't have another unless something substantial changes that makes one needed. Even if they did have another, there is no guarantee it would succeed. Having a third would look ridiculous.

Frankie Boyle made bit of a show about the election up on iPlayer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy

I thought it was pretty entertaining.

Lol. "Danny Alexander looks like someone who would get skin cancer from a holiday brochure."

 

[Walshicus]

A question that struck me last night.

I know that the SNP is supposed to be all about Scotland, and that really, people in the UK should be voting Labour if they want to support the SNP.

But with the slight mess that's going on inside Labour right now and the current success that the SNP has found, if in 3 years or so the SNP can see that things might not be much better for Labour do you think they'll start fielding candidates in English or Welsh seats?

Or do you think they'll stay out of it and just try and lock Labour out of Scotland entirely?

I can see then potentially beefing up their ties to Plaid Cymru. Other than that... There's an opportunity to support an English National Party that's modeled on them, but it'd be a multi-election effort. Had the potential to pick up the left wing vote and to get votes from the soft right.

 

[cjp]

Tasty.

 

[PJV3]

Labour have gone mental.

Anyone can vote for the leader for £3.
Before you would have the deterrent of membership, activists calling etc. Now it's vote without any strings.

 

[Hasney]

Labour have gone mental.

Anyone can vote for the leader for £3.
Before you would have the deterrent of membership, activists calling etc. Now it's vote without any strings.

Sweet.

Do a write in vote for Hasney

 

[Nicktendo86]

So looks like Burnham is indeed the 'chosen one'. CCHQ will be very happy.

 

[tomtom94]

So looks like Burnham is indeed the 'chosen one'. CCHQ will be very happy.

I'd say he's more electable than Cooper. Though that's not saying much.

 

[PJV3]

Sweet.

Do a write in vote for Hasney

Tories probably want the chance to vote for Tristram Hunt.

The party is in a precarious position and they pull this stunt.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I'd say he's more electable than Cooper. Though that's not saying much.

skeletons in the closet though

 

[DBT85]

Labour have gone mental.

Anyone can vote for the leader for £3.
Before you would have the deterrent of membership, activists calling etc. Now it's vote without any strings.

That sounds kind of dangerous.

The Tories could mobilise and elect a

Spoiler

nother

potato.

 

[CyclopsRock]

skeletons in the closet though

Possibly literal ones. Only he knows where the Mid Staff bodies are!

 

[JonathanEx]

That sounds kind of dangerous.

The Tories could mobilise and elect a

Spoiler

nother

potato.

Please, Labour are more than capable of making a bad choice for themselves.

 

[CrankyKong]

It must be a great time to be a conservative.
basically guaranteed another decade in office

 

[DBT85]

It must be a great time to be a conservative.
basically guaranteed another decade in office

And people blame the Tories for it too.

 

[Tak3n]

putting Burnham in is pointless, we have been shown that the Tories will take a false statement and run with it regardless as they know it does damage....

yet now we know that Burnham is involved in Mid-Staffs, so they are going to just go on about that constantly, a lot of people died FFS and he refuses to talk about it, the tories will be wetting their lips

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

weird how these things go. in the nineties the labour party was full of talent and now the best thing they can throw at the leadership is burnham. someone of his calibre wouldn't have even been able to get enough mp's to support him back then

 

[PJV3]

weird how these things go. in the nineties the labour party was full of talent and now the best thing they can throw at the leadership is burnham. someone of his calibre wouldn't have even been able to get enough mp's to support him back then

It's looking like Burnham being leader for a couple of years is the best bet at the moment. If he's polling terribly then he might have the sense to step aside.

 

[tomtom94]

It's looking like Burnham being leader for a couple of years is the best bet at the moment. If he's polling terribly then he might have the sense to step aside.

Not a fucking chance. He's a politician.

 

[PJV3]

Not a fucking chance. He's a politician.

Well I said if he was doing terribly, it obviously depends if that's down to him making a mess of it or the tories doing well.