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May: I will rip up human rights laws to tackle terrorism

Came in to say this. Really scary how close those movies are getting. While we are talking about movies coming close, USA is totally ideocracy.

We aren't at all close to these films. We are close to taking a first step on a journey that may end up in that sort of place but it's pure hyperbole to suggest that that is close to where we are right now. It's right to point out the dangers inherent in authoritarianism but lets not get carried away.
 

Auctopus

Member
A recent pic I saw online was captioned:

"Sire, the orcs are at the gate"
"Well, don't be racist, let them in!"

Sorry, are you saying that an attacking army of monsters that eat people is the same as refugees fleeing a warzone?

This is dangerously close to Jews = Vermin rhetoric.
 
Problem with that is the definition of terrorist is up to them. It could be that citizens caught in violent protests over things like human rights could also be classified as a terrorist and be silenced.
I am assuming this is for offenses already punished right now, just with higher sentences.
 
J

JoJo UK

Unconfirmed Member
In a way yes.

As a British Muslim, I honestly have to wonder when this is going to get abused and innocent people will start getting getting "deported"(regardless of whether they were UK born or not). Innocent people have been locked up and detained for years under the Terrorism Act. A friend of my cousin up here in Scotland was held for about 4 years and subsequently cleared of all charges when he got his trial eventually because of some Bin Laden joke he made.
That is scary as fuck. What happens in that type of situation, I mean did the guy just get a pat on the back and a 'sorry mate'?!?
 
What are you trying to say here?

I'm saying that the UK has attackers wanting to kill us and our leaders and half the UK public are willing to let them in. Since last weekend's attack, I'm with the other half of the UK opinion and voting UKIP. Well, I would have voted but I live in Slovakia and I missed the closing date to vote from abroad. Only ever voted once in my life before, but nothing is being done about this Islamic problem. Islam is causing this and it is not compatible with the West. Also I am a devout Buddhist so I am willing to fucking say it, that we have a problem with Islam right now. If Theresa May wants to rip up human rights laws, then I'd rather vote UKIP.
 
I'm saying that the UK has attackers wanting to kill us and our leaders and half the UK public are willing to let them in. Since last weekend's attack, I'm with the other half of the UK opinion and voting UKIP. Well, I would have voted but I live in Slovakia and I missed the closing date to vote from abroad. Only ever voted once in my life before, but nothing is being done about this Islamic problem. Islam is causing this and it is not compatible with the West. Also I am a devout Buddhist so I am willing to fucking say it, that we have a problem with Islam right now. If Theresa May wants to rip up human rights laws, then I'd rather vote UKIP.

If that's your position, I would have thought that you would be in favour of what May is doing.
 
I'm saying that the UK has attackers wanting to kill us and our leaders and half the UK public are willing to let them in. Since last weekend's attack, I'm with the other half of the UK opinion and voting UKIP. Well, I would have voted but I live in Slovakia and I missed the closing date to vote from abroad. Only ever voted once in my life before, but nothing is being done about this Islamic problem. Islam is causing this and it is not compatible with the West. Also I am a devout Buddhist so I am willing to fucking say it, that we have a problem with Islam right now. If Theresa May wants to rip up human rights laws, then I'd rather vote UKIP.
Buddhists have persecuted and killed muslims in Burma, Myanmar, and Sri Lanka for decades (all are Buddhist majority countries), so it's interesting you bring that up.

_67354744_154146214(1).jpg
 
I don't intend to be presumptive, but it seems to me that most places attacked by terrorists tend to be more progressive, liberal metropolitan areas. The folks that are afraid, for the most part, haven't ever witnessed these things first hand or been in the vicinity.

New York, London, and Boston come to mind, and I'm sure there are others, however I can't say one way or another whether somewhere like Paris is a more progressive location.
 

Irminsul

Member
But human rights have changed and evolved over time. If times change, isn't it only natural we look at the current human rights laws and see if they still apply or are counter productive to guaranteeing the safety of others, who also have a right to live in peace?
Depends what you mean by "over time". Yes, there was a time where they simply didn't exist. But apart from that, how have they really changed since, say, WWII?

- Longer prison sentences for terrorists. Nothing to do with human rights.
Maybe not, but what's the end goal here? Discouraging people who want to die for their cause with longer prison sentences? Okay.
- Deport foreign terrorist suspects to their own country. Will depend on how they define them being suspects. If this is someone who is preaching hate, does the UK have a responsibility to somehow fix this person, or can they say: off you go, we don't want you. I see no problem with that. They are foreigners, thus have another passport or nationality, so we are not talking about making people stateless.
You can already do that for hate speech, I presume, because that makes you not a "suspect" anymore. May knows that. So the only thing she can mean here is removing due process. I mean, the term "suspect" should give you a hint. You really don't want to go down this path.
- Restrict freedom and movement for terror suspects. Again, would depend on what they have on them. When we have people walking around who freely went to Libya and such, have been reported for extremist views, already done crime, etc, etc. How many chances are we to give such a person?
Again, you can already do that if they actually committed a crime. So either May is lying to score cheap political points or she actually wants to change something, which would mean reversing in dubio pro reo for some people. In that case, what values exactly are you defending from the terrorists?
If certain human rights laws are in the way to dealing with those problems, then is wouldn't be that bad to have a look at them and see if that needs changing without hurting innocent people in the process.
No, for several reasons.

First of all, your last sentence is wishful thinking, because you can't. Even if you think May will never misuse changed laws, you'll never know who comes after her who might be tempted to use possibilities they never should have gotten. If you believe that you can design laws so they never can be used against innocent people, you're either naïve or ignorant of history.

Secondly, you have to ask yourself what society you want to live in. What are the values you want to be represented in this society? Because if it's safety and security (which, of course, never can be 100% achieved), there are better ways to do it. Get rid of democracy, for one thing. And due process. Build an Orwellian state to its best possible extent.

You think that's overkill? Yes, because it goes against a thing called "proportionality principle". Even if your statement I quoted is worded as an absolute one, you don't mean it. You can't mean it, unless you're actually in favour of an Orwellian state. So you're the one going for extremes if you're willing to strip away the highest values there are in Western society for an arbitrarily small increase in (perceived or real) security.

Also, why is it always terrorism which causes people to throw away everything their forefathers have achieved in terms of human rights to gain a little bit more safety and security? You're totally fine with a lot of much bigger risks in your life that are far more easy to prevent than terrorism.
 
I don't intend to be presumptive, but it seems to me that most places attacked by terrorists tend to be more progressive, liberal metropolitan areas. The folks that are afraid, for the most part, haven't ever witnessed these things first hand or been in the vicinity.

New York, London, and Boston come to mind, and I'm sure there are others, however I can't say one way or another whether somewhere like Paris is a more progressive location.

The majority of Paris, after all the horrible things that happened to it in the last few years, voted for Macron.

Also I would like to have a law passed that detains, arrests, deports (if immigrants), silences, or somehow marks people who want to strip away, rip up or have a look at human rights. How does that sound? I assume pretty terrible? Thats how people who support this garbage sound to me.
 
Depends what you mean by "over time". Yes, there was a time where they simply didn't exist. But apart from that, how have they really changed since, say, WWII?

Maybe not, but what's the end goal here? Discouraging people who want to die for their cause with longer prison sentences? Okay.

You can already do that for hate speech, I presume, because that makes you not a "suspect" anymore. May knows that. So the only thing she can mean here is removing due process. I mean, the term "suspect" should give you a hint. You really don't want to go down this path.

Again, you can already do that if they actually committed a crime. So either May is lying to score cheap political points or she actually wants to change something, which would mean reversing in dubio pro reo for some people. In that case, what values exactly are you defending from the terrorists?

No, for several reasons.

First of all, your last sentence is wishful thinking, because you can't. Even if you think May will never misuse changed laws, you'll never know who comes after her who might be tempted to use possibilities they never should have gotten. If you believe that you can design laws so they never can be used against innocent people, you're either naïve or ignorant of history.

Secondly, you have to ask yourself what society you want to live in. What are the values you want to be represented in this society? Because if it's safety and security (which, of course, never can be 100% achieved), there are better ways to do it. Get rid of democracy, for one thing. And due process. Build an Orwellian state to its best possible extent.

You think that's overkill? Yes, because it goes against a thing called "proportionality principle". Even if your statement I quoted is worded as an absolute one, you don't mean it. You can't mean it, unless you're actually in favour of an Orwellian state. So you're the one going for extremes if you're willing to strip away the highest values there are in Western society for an arbitrarily small increase in (perceived or real) security.

Also, why is it always terrorism which causes people to throw away everything their forefathers have achieved in terms of human rights to gain a little bit more safety and security? You're totally fine with a lot of much bigger risks in your life that are far more easy to prevent than terrorism.
All these things assume that they just want to throw people out for fun and giggles, instead of actually having leads on these people and having a court between them that still do checks. And yes, I think most of this talk is trying to score cheap points, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with it just a bit.

We see too many cases where shitty people are getting away with their terrible behavior and crimes and we all need to just accept it apparently. If doing something about that is Orwellian to you, I think we just disagree on how we stand on dealing with crimes.

I remember not so long ago a lot of people were in support of the whole "punch a nazi" line. Which I agree with, since nazi's are terrible. But when dealing with terror suspects, suddenly we need to watch out? I don't get the reasoning behind this.

I don't know which elements in life I am totally fine with that have bigger risks and are easier to prevent then terrorism, when talking about people trying to actively hurt others. Please don't come in again with the comparisons to car accidents or other things where people have no intent of killings others. And even if that is what you mean, if car accidents went up suddenly, then I would also agree to stricter laws there to prevent people being a bad driver.

All that said, before I can make any judgment on this, I would need to see which elements May is talking about and what her replacements would be. Just shouting "human rights laws" is saying very little in the end, since those are lots of different things.
 
I'm saying that the UK has attackers wanting to kill us and our leaders and half the UK public are willing to let them in. Since last weekend's attack, I'm with the other half of the UK opinion and voting UKIP. Well, I would have voted but I live in Slovakia and I missed the closing date to vote from abroad. Only ever voted once in my life before, but nothing is being done about this Islamic problem. Islam is causing this and it is not compatible with the West. Also I am a devout Buddhist so I am willing to fucking say it, that we have a problem with Islam right now. If Theresa May wants to rip up human rights laws, then I'd rather vote UKIP.

If you're a Buddhist, then I'm sure you can relate to what the Muslims are doing to Buddhists in Burma nowadays...oh wait.

See I can play that stupid card too.
 
The majority of Paris, after all the horrible things that happened to it in the last few years, voted for Macron.

Thank you.

Consistently, the citizens cities that have been attacked do NOT want to sacrifice their rights for security. That notions like this are being expressed on their names, or rather on their backs, is what makes me think that the terrorists are winning.
 
Theresa May wanting to tear up the Human Rights Act to combat terrorism is dangerous and shortsighted.

Why are people now cowering in fear and willing to give up our rights? That's highly defeatist.

We're better than that.

Rights can be given up very easily, especially under the guise of safety, but it's much harder to get them back once they are given up.

Don't give up your rights to someone who promises safety if you do. That's a slippery slope to a dictatorship.
 
Show me a systemic problem with human rights laws as they stand and how they demonstrably protect terrorists over and over again, and maybe we can have an honest discussion about change.

This just seems like a knee-jerk reaction designed to look tough and pander to voters.
 

Breads

Banned
Sorry but anyone who thinks this way are a fucking threat and should be launched into the sun.

Rights are more important than 2-3 digit domestic deaths a year. If human life were your concern then why did you pick among the most statistically insignificant ways people would meet their end?

No... this is about division and control. White people listening to this don't feel like their rights are at stake because they aren't. Minorities fear this rhetoric because their rights are at stake because they are. Judges will see to that.

If you support this fuck you.
 

Theonik

Member
I think the terrorists have been winning since 9/11.
I would argue that's only partially true, because the reality of this situation is that it is not that governments are advancing terrorist agendas strictly speaking. They are using terrorism as a means to advance their own perverted agenda which is expanding their own powers. That people are willing to permit this is proof positive we are not advancing as a species.
 
We're talking about the same Japan that has about 1% of non-asian population, nevermind muslim population, right ? Really weird.

Are you implying that Muslims really do just "hate the West for their freedom" or are somehow genetically prone to committing terrorism?

The Western World created Muslim terrorists for themselves by exploiting those regions and setting up puppet dictators years prior.
 
Sorry but anyone who thinks this way are a fucking threat and should be launched into the sun.

Rights are more important than 2-3 digit domestic deaths a year. If human life were your concern then why did you pick among the most statistically insignificant ways people would meet their end?

No... this is about division and control. White people listening to this don't feel like their rights are at stake because they aren't. Minorities fear this rhetoric because their rights are at stake because they are. Judges will see to that.

If you support this fuck you.
"Statistically insignificant" is a bit of a strange way to talk about murder victims don't you think? What is the threshold here to make it significant. A 100? A 1000?
 
to crystallise my thoughts further: she is the first PM in my lifetime with whom I have genuine concerns about a hidden agenda. Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown and Cameron all had their faults, many of them colossal, but at the end of the day, I believe that all of them had the interests of the country at heart.

Saying Blair had the interests of the country at heart is laughable. He had his own interests at his hearts
 

BibiMaghoo

Member
"Statistically insignificant" is a bit of a strange way to talk about murder victims don't you think? What is the threshold here to make it significant. A 100? A 1000?

It's cold, but it isn't wrong in context. For example, in 2009 in the UK:

33 people accidentally drowned in the bath
164 people died from fatigue
644 people died from falling down stairs

The number of people killed by terrorist attacks is incredibly small. That is not to say they have less worth, but that we don't change all our laws to stop people dying of fatigue. We do not build single floor buildings to prevent people falling down stairs, and we do not outlaw baths. There are sensible laws applied based on casualty rates, such as driving. Lots of people die from this, and so there are a great deal of laws in relation to preventing that. We don't need to skip that step to accommodate murdering lunatics that are few in number.
 
I don't disagree with the statistical significance but just looking at deaths does a disservice to all the people injured, bereaved and traumatised because of an attack. And they also leave people feeling more unsafe than a car accident would.
 
Clearly I disagree.

Well blairs actions disagree with you too.

It's cold, but it isn't wrong in context. For example, in 2009 in the UK:

33 people accidentally drowned in the bath
164 people died from fatigue
644 people died from falling down stairs

The number of people killed by terrorist attacks is incredibly small. That is not to say they have less worth, but that we don't change all our laws to stop people dying of fatigue. We do not build single floor buildings to prevent people falling down stairs, and we do not outlaw baths. There are sensible laws applied based on casualty rates, such as driving. Lots of people die from this, and so there are a great deal of laws in relation to preventing that. We don't need to skip that step to accommodate murdering lunatics that are few in number.

Why do people always do this? Accidents happen and generally not much you can do about it. Terrorists are making a choice to murder people; that could be prevented if they ya know decided not to kill people.
 
It's cold, but it isn't wrong in context. For example, in 2009 in the UK:

33 people accidentally drowned in the bath
164 people died from fatigue
644 people died from falling down stairs

The number of people killed by terrorist attacks is incredibly small. That is not to say they have less worth, but that we don't change all our laws to stop people dying of fatigue. We do not build single floor buildings to prevent people falling down stairs, and we do not outlaw baths. There are sensible laws applied based on casualty rates, such as driving. Lots of people die from this, and so there are a great deal of laws in relation to preventing that. We don't need to skip that step to accommodate murdering lunatics that are few in number.
But then you don't take into account intent. Nobody means to drown in the bath. That is an accident. A lunatic going around stabbing people in the streets in the name of their God is a totally different story. So of course reactions to that are different.

You can call a ton of things insignificant this way by just pointing to things that hurt more people.
 

BibiMaghoo

Member
Why do people always do this? Accidents happen and generally not much you can do about it. Terrorists are making a choice to murder people; that could be prevented if they ya know decided not to kill people.

Because the construction of our laws for protection of citizens are based on mortality rates. The higher the number of deaths, the greater the laws and protection offered by it to prevent that. It is pretty straight forward, and unequivocally connected. That is why people 'do this'.

But then you don't take into account intent. Nobody means to drown in the bath. That is an accident. A lunatic going around stabbing people in the streets in the name of their God is a totally different story. So of course reactions to that are different.

You can call a ton of things insignificant this way by just pointing to things that hurt more people.

The number of casualties in these cases of terrorist attacks is the insignificant bit in relation to public safety and law. Not the event itself. I chose those statistics because they show pretty random events still can have a much higher mortality rate. There is a balance between action and the number of people it effects against the number of people harmed without it, and that balance is weighed with lives. I'm not sure I wish it was otherwise to be honest. I feel deeply for those affected, and was in Manchester myself only a few weeks before that attack happened, but in terms of 'statistically insignificant', it is, undeniably so, I think.
 

Breads

Banned
"Statistically insignificant" is a bit of a strange way to talk about murder victims don't you think? What is the threshold here to make it significant. A 100? A 1000?

Sorry but this is a bullshit way of thinking. Especially if you consider how many people died to get you the rights you do have.
 

Cocaloch

Member
There's a reason so much dystopian fiction is set in and written by the British. Their culture is uniquely predispositioned to this kind of shit compared to the rest western society.

I actually think if anything it's the other way around. English and Scottish culture are particularly disposed to be critical of the state.
 

B.O.O.M

Member
Buddhists have persecuted and killed muslims in Burma, Myanmar, and Sri Lanka for decades (all are Buddhist majority countries), so it's interesting you bring that up.

_67354744_154146214(1).jpg

The Sri Lanka bit is nonsense. Tensions have risen over time between the Sinhalese, Tamils and Muslims but persecution and killing of Muslims for decades? wtf? Nah.Hell even when the country was going through a Civil war, the killings of Muslim Villages were done by the terrorists who were Tamil/Hindus. Please don't spread lies.

I'm Sri Lankan.
 
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